England vs SA ODIs

First topic message reminder :

England v South Africa at Leeds on May 24, 2017

1st ODI Match scheduled to begin at 14:00 local | 13:00 GMT

2nd ODI: England v South Africa at Southampton on May 27, 2017

(11:00 local | 10:00 GMT)

3rd ODI: England v South Africa at Lord's on May 29, 2017

(11:00 local | 10:00 GMT)

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1st ODI

Pitch:
Recent games have seen big scores, although Headingly is known as a seamers ground for the most part.

Weather:
Forecast sunny and hot with some light cloud, unlikley to be enough to make a difference for seamers.

SA have never won an ODI at Headingly, but come in ranked number one. England despite their revival are only ranked 5 in a congested table partly due to a tough winter tour schedule and historic results from the old side bringing them down. The bookies have them favouirtes to win, albeit with the natural home backing bias.

England side (from):
Jason Roy, Alex Hales, Joe Root, Eoin Morgan (capt), Jonny Bairstow? Ben Stokes, Jos Buttler, Moeen Ali? Adil Rashid, Chris Woakes, David Willey? Liam Plunkett? Mark Wood
2 of these will have to miss out, all arguably deserve a start. England may choose to continue the experiment with 1 spinner after Rashid and Root combined effectively against Ireland. Moeens continued his poor returns with the ball over the winter for England into the County season and frankly would be getting selected for the sake of two spinners rather than on form and ability. If he doesnt play then theres a question of whether England feel they can afford the luxury of 5 seamers given the number of all rounders they have, or if Bairstows continued excellence with the bat demands selection at the expense of 6.5 bowling options (although he has struggled in his last two RLC matches).
Plunkett and Willeys chances may be helped by being home ground players, but Wood is the nearest thing to a genuine fast strike bowler England have so is unlikley to miss out. Stokes' IPL form and general superstar status makes him nailed on, and its hard to imagine Woakes missing out either. Buttler too is a given for the gloves, whilst replacing him with Bairstow could be considered theres no sign thats on the cards. Most likley Bairstow will remain the resrve batsman/keeper and have to wait for an injury.
All in its a healthy position for England with everyone fit an available, and their weakness in the spin department is less of an issue on home pitches. The batting reamins deep reagrdless of the line up they choose, with Bairstwo in it would be truely formidable.

South Africa (from):
Quinton de Kock (wk), Hashim Amla, Faf du Plessis AB de Villiers (capt), JP Duminy, David Miller, Chris Morris? Andile Phehlukwayo? Wayne Parnell? Kagiso Rabada, Morne Morkel, Imran Tahir? Keshav Maharaj?

Whilst they lack Englands all rounders they make up for this with some genuine superstars (even without Steyn) and real pace, and players who should have no issues with English conditions especially on a sunny day. Unlike England with Tahir and Maharaj they have a couple of very capable limited overs spinners both of whome deserve a place, but again its likely only one will be selected with Duminy offering an option.
Pretoriuos played both warm ups but didnt do much with bat or ball, so Im assuming he wont force his way in.
They won both tour warm up matches with all the senior bats making a decent score, de Kock a century and a duck. Its hard to judge but if we consider the opposition on a par with the current Ireland side (which frankly may be generous to Ireland) then SA showed every bit as much dominance as England did in their warm ups.


Should be a cracking series.

Very good point Olly, half of them are probably only there because someone told them it was the place to be seen

VTR wrote:Very good point Olly, half of them are probably only there because someone told them it was the place to be seen

Half of them are dressed like a regurgitated fry up - won't get to open a second bottle of champagne...oh what a shame for them

VTR wrote:Surprised that there were no comments after Mark Wood's heroics the other day

The knock on effect of winning the series on today's game is England have put out a team featuring a number of reserves including a first cap for Toby Roland-Jones. I wonder if he is being looked at as a possible Test player?

The England teams looks significantly weaker on paper today so I would not be surprised if South Africa, despite making a few changes themselves, win comfortably today

He didn't make the grade at Surrey but not reaching those heights is no reason to prevent him playing Test cricket for England.

More seriously, I think he's one of the best players in the county game but probably lacks a bit of pace for the top level.

I did have him down as a bit of a trundler, though one with quite a bit of skill to make up for his lack of pace. Maybe he has been brought for his batting anyway as he's already outscored Roy, Hales, Root, Morgan and Buttler put together

I'm not able to watch atm (mind you, I did see the first 6 wickets fall! ) but Toblerone Jones is no mug with the bat and can certainly strike a ball. By most standards, a very decent number 9.

Think that is what you'd call a "bad day at the office" for England's batsmen. A rare one, their lowest score batting first in the previous 10 innings was 296!

Might be good to get it out of the way before the real tournament begins

Rather stealing this line from cricinfo but you have to blame Roland-Jones and Finn for our feeble score. Having got 145 off 30 overs, they should have taken it to 290 off 50.

guildfordbat wrote:Rather stealing this line from cricinfo but you have to blame Roland-Jones and Finn for our feeble score. Having got 145 off 30 overs, they should have taken it to 290 off 50.

I disagree with that, the new way of thinking suggests that the score at 32 overs should be doubled so England should really have been looking at something past 300.

Odd.  No one commented on Saturday ( no one watched ? I know it was FA Cup Final and all but...) and the game was a cracker.  Today it is a bit of a damp squib and posters are back

Probably good to get a bad hair day out of the way ; but I do have some concern at the pretty dumb approach of the top order on a day when there was distinct movement around...Bairstow looked a class apart in sensible batting when he got to face a ball.   Did the rest of them start to believe their good publicity allows them to just throw the bat at everything regardless of conditions ?
If it is similar and they lose the toss against NZ and Australia the campaign could be over pretty early !

As to selection : I know they won't want to be seen to panic and would prefer to trust their regular lineup ; but picking Roy who cannot buy a run and has had no time in the middle lately while YJB carries the drinks is starting to look like a triumph of hope over experience...

Hi Alfie - I'm as concerned as anyone about Roy and would welcome Bairstow into the team but what's your answer as to who opens with Hales?

Btw, off topic but something potentially very special - keep an eye on Sanga at Chelmsford today.

I guess it would have to be a straight swap. Bairstow opened for Yorkshire and made a big score recently , no ? Not ideal as it isn't his usual spot but could he score any less than Roy has lately ?

Or Root could move up to open - which is nearly what he's been doing anyway. Moeen ? Don't like that idea...

Look they may stick with Roy and hope. But it seems counter intuitive to leave out the form man just for the sake of continuity. I didn't think it would come to this even before these SA games but I'm at bite-the-bullet stage now.

Hi again Alfie - I missed that Bairstow had opened for Yorks. I was assuming he would be somewhere in the middle order.

For the first game, I would stick with Roy and hope. If that fails, I would move Root up.

Nice first scalp for TRJ ...Amla plays on.

Ball gets de Kock now : but with only 60 needed even SA can't have time to ch...

Can they ? Where's Kingraf.

Impressive spell since lunch from Ball as he collects du Plessis as well...

I thought he was not really as poor as his figures suggested on Saturday : he didn't panic at the death despite massive pressure...not perhaps in the starting team for the CT but on this showing a decent back up. Finishes 10 overs with 2/43
With a score like 153 Wood and Plunkett couldn't have been expected to bail England out today ; so the run out for Ball and a look at TRJ are probably two worthwhile things to come out of today's fiasco.
TRJ bowling quite well now too. At least making SA work...

alfie wrote:Impressive spell since lunch from Ball as he collects du Plessis as well...

I thought he was not really as poor as his figures suggested on Saturday : he didn't panic at the death despite massive pressure...not perhaps in the starting team for the CT but on this showing a decent back up. Finishes 10 overs with 2/43  
With a score like 153 Wood and Plunkett couldn't have been expected to bail England out today ; so the run out for Ball and a look at TRJ are probably two worthwhile things to come out of today's fiasco.
TRJ bowling quite well now too.  At least making SA work...

Given almost everything and everyone has been falling down around him, a creditable debut from TRJ to keep him in the frame. He's certainly well regarded by Middlesex supporters.

...and they are continuing to make them work. Nice day for seam bowling ; and Finn now and TRJ are using the conditions well : ABDV has now faced sixteen balls for just one run...

Only need 39 so there will be no dramatic finish ; but encouraging to see the back up pace men performing.

Im a fan of Roy but when you have someone as good as Bairstow waiting in the wings i think you have to make a change.

Id open up with Butler and Hales.

Buttler
Hales
Root
Morgan
Bairstow
Stokes
Moeen
Woakes
Rashid
Plunkett
Wood

Would be my XI

I think we stick with Roy for the first two games - I'm really not comfortable bringing in guys who don't open in one day stuff or massively rejigging the order to fit Bairstow.

Roy is the kind of player who just needs to get to 30/40 and he's back in nick imo.

Morgan Frustrated with a Grassy Pitch at Lords..screams the CI headline
http://www.espncricinfo.com/england-v-south-africa-2017/content/story/1100058.html





WOW
Irony just died a 1000 deaths

Why are the comments ironic? Seem fair enough to me - part of England's improvement in ODIs is down to a conscious effort to provide true wickets in County Cricket and Internationals

VTR wrote:Why are the comments ironic? Seem fair enough to me - part of England's improvement in ODIs is down to a conscious effort to provide true wickets in County Cricket and Internationals

Ironical...the captain of the home team, faced with what are "English home conditions" complaining about the conditions....
which I doubt he would have had he bowled first...
which however seam friendly....did not warrant 6 out of top 7 blown away in single digits....
which required gumption from home batsmen, born and bred in these conditions to get them to a 225- 240 total

Ok - but that's the point nowadays I think, that the ODI pitches have been changed from home conditions as they were. Which is also why England have moved on from the Cook/Bell/Trott era of seeing off the new ball with a good forward defence then watching as the opposition easily chase down 250

So I think it's a valid complaint as ODIs in England are going in a certain direction i.e. flat pitches allowing batsmen like Roy, Hales and Morgan (all unlikely to feature in the Test team any time soon) to prosper

I will give you though, that no way should a team ever be 20-6 in any format or conditions.

Too much of an ask for us to adjust
'Don't think there was any home advantage' - Morgan

Eoin Morgan blamed a failure of the England batsmen to adapt to a Cardiff surface, which he said provided no home advantage, on being dumped out of the Champions Trophy by a rampant Pakistan
From CI the above http://www.espncricinfo.com/icc-champions-trophy-2017/content/story/1103597.html


And look at what he said ( a couple of posts back) when he was given "English Conditions" vs SA
Was complaining then too...and what I observed then is confirmed now after CT loss

As if he has a clause in his employment contract
" thou shall be given 300+ pitches...else it shall not be your fault if you lose"
this guy feels entitled in his mind to get a perfect world ....be it pitch or a trip to Bangladesh which is not aligned with his mental picture if perfect security...

So inspite of being a captain he won't go....even through 20 other guys forming  the squad and staff have no problems

Not really an ideal captaincy material in my view

He'd do well to make less comment on the pitches as it always sounds bad when you lose.
Trouble is the press always push for an explanation as to why you think things went badly and the captain has a choice between giving some bland non-answer or saying what he thinks ...damned either way.

Perhaps he didn't make it clear enough (I haven't seen the whole interview - and I doubt you have either , KP_f) ; but I don't think he meant to suggest that the pitch issues excuse the poor performance. Fair to say they contributed ...but indeed , probably better to down play that aspect as it does sound a bit whiney...

There is an interview with Morgan on the ECB website where he stresses England failed to adapt to conditions, so I'd say his pitch comments are probably being overblown - but I'd agree with comments on it being a poor pitch. It was not an entertaining game of cricket, and the pitch was the main factor in that imo.