Woods DUI

First topic message reminder :

The end is nigh, for Tiger ???

super_realist wrote:Any addiction CAN be overcome by willpower.

You forgot to add FACT to your assertion. I thought you would at least have the decency to back your OPINION with some FACTS

It is true that every addiction can be overcome by willpower. Show me one that can't and I can provide an example of someone who's overcome it.

The point you have missed out is that perhaps all addictions CANNOT be overcome by all people, or rather so far they've not managed to overcome it. That's something I didn't even claim.

I would assume that American dont always rely on Rehab, I would assume that some do, and some dont. In my line of work I have dealt with people that have been in rehab centres in the UK and people that work with drug and alcohol support groups.

I dont give a flying chuff what the success is for any "anonymous" group, if they help 10% of people its job well done.

Some people will find rehab works better than willpower, some wont, its like the world is made up of different people...who knew?

I would also add that to get addicted to something you have already shown a lack of willpower.

beninho wrote:I would assume that American dont always rely on Rehab, I would assume that some do, and some dont. In my line of work I have dealt with people that have been in rehab centres in the UK and people that work with drug and alcohol support groups.

I dont give a flying chuff what the success is for any "anonymous" group, if they help 10% of people its job well done.

Some people will find rehab works better than willpower, some wont, its like the world is made up of different people...who knew?

I would also add that to get addicted to something you have already shown a lack of willpower.

a 10% success rate is TERRIBLE. That's not remotely a success and would show a 90% chance of failure.  You wouldn't accept that sort of success rate for anything else in your life. You'd seek a better solution.

So success rates are important, and it's rather an admission of failure and how they lack confidence in their "process" that they are too frightened to publish it.

Its a success to the people that have been taken off whatever addiction they had.

If I was a drug addict ( I am not, dabbled in a bit of weed when i was younger and once took cocaine a long time ago) and i went in to a rehab centre. Following my time in the centre I was able to come off drugs, I would deem it as a success. Even if every other person relapsed. It would still be a success to me.

Its not a black and white thing, life has to be looked at in many different ways.

super_realist wrote:

beninho wrote:I would assume that American dont always rely on Rehab, I would assume that some do, and some dont. In my line of work I have dealt with people that have been in rehab centres in the UK and people that work with drug and alcohol support groups.

I dont give a flying chuff what the success is for any "anonymous" group, if they help 10% of people its job well done.

Some people will find rehab works better than willpower, some wont, its like the world is made up of different people...who knew?

I would also add that to get addicted to something you have already shown a lack of willpower.

a 10% success rate is TERRIBLE. That's not remotely a success and would show a 90% chance of failure.  You wouldn't accept that sort of success rate for anything else in your life. You'd seek a better solution.

Presume you're quitting golf then?

Statistically, it's not though, because you cannot be certain that it is the programme which has been responsible for it, if 90% fail.

Or, to look at it another way, you could say the programme had a shockingly bad chance of helping you with whatever problem you had.

There are other things which have proven to be far more successful such as medication or replacing your addiction with something else, e.g. exercise/new interest.

I'm not saying ALL rehabilitation institutions are rubbish, I'm saying that many of them, especially those American in origin which follow a crock of sh1t doctrine such cults like the AA, GA etc are too scared to even publish their "success". THat speaks volumes for how effective they are or more likely are not.

MontysMerkin wrote:

super_realist wrote:

beninho wrote:I would assume that American dont always rely on Rehab, I would assume that some do, and some dont. In my line of work I have dealt with people that have been in rehab centres in the UK and people that work with drug and alcohol support groups.

I dont give a flying chuff what the success is for any "anonymous" group, if they help 10% of people its job well done.

Some people will find rehab works better than willpower, some wont, its like the world is made up of different people...who knew?

I would also add that to get addicted to something you have already shown a lack of willpower.

a 10% success rate is TERRIBLE. That's not remotely a success and would show a 90% chance of failure.  You wouldn't accept that sort of success rate for anything else in your life. You'd seek a better solution.

Presume you're quitting golf then?

Why? Golf isn't deleterious to me, I'm not addicted to it, I'm not trying to be a top player and I've no reason to want to stop playing it.

We're talking about an organisation whose sole aim (so they claim) is to get you to stop being addicted to something. They're 12 step process is not scientific and they won't publish their results.

In regards to golf, if I worked on a programme, and I only got a 10% chance of improving my game from it, then my programme would be RUBBISH wouldn't it?

If these programmes had a good success rate, surely they'd be proud to tell everyone about it.

Ahh ok got it. So although you have a high failure rate in golf you will continue playing. Even though you have just said You wouldn't accept that sort of success rate for anything else in your life. Cool, bro.

super_realist wrote:

MontysMerkin wrote:

super_realist wrote:

beninho wrote:I would assume that American dont always rely on Rehab, I would assume that some do, and some dont. In my line of work I have dealt with people that have been in rehab centres in the UK and people that work with drug and alcohol support groups.

I dont give a flying chuff what the success is for any "anonymous" group, if they help 10% of people its job well done.

Some people will find rehab works better than willpower, some wont, its like the world is made up of different people...who knew?

I would also add that to get addicted to something you have already shown a lack of willpower.

a 10% success rate is TERRIBLE. That's not remotely a success and would show a 90% chance of failure.  You wouldn't accept that sort of success rate for anything else in your life. You'd seek a better solution.

Presume you're quitting golf then?

Why? Golf isn't deleterious to me, I'm not addicted to it, I'm not trying to be a top player and I've no reason to want to stop playing it.

We're talking about an organisation whose sole aim (so they claim) is to get you to stop being addicted to something. They're 12 step process is not scientific and they won't publish their results.

In regards to golf, if I worked on a programme, and I only got a 10% chance of improving my game from it, then my programme would be RUBBISH wouldn't it?

If these programmes had a good success rate, surely they'd be proud to tell everyone about it.

I can buy this, but as Ben (I think) says, for those 10%, it's a success. Clearly, they hadn't succeeded before attending whatever programme before. I suspect for many on these programmes, it's the others with them who can relate and support when someone is wavering, rather than the programme itself maybe.

You'd have to prove that being in a "Rehab" environment was better than willpower.

MontysMerkin wrote:Ahh ok got it. So although you have a high failure rate in golf you will continue playing. Even though you have just said You wouldn't accept that sort of success rate for anything else in your life. Cool, bro.

I don't have a high failure rate in golf, but you don't even know why I play golf so how can you tell if I have a high failure rate in it? Who said golf was about success and not about enjoying yourself with your friends.

It also depends on how you measure success in golf, it's easy to measure success in whether you're a dipso or not. You lot must really work on your analogies, as they are terrible.

Super, don't get stroppy. Use your willpower to resist. It's not only for use in avoiding addictive substances!

puligny wrote:Super, don't get stroppy. Use your willpower to resist. It's not only for use in avoiding addictive substances!

Quite, but I don't need a 12 step process to do it.

You're a very lucky chap. I know people who do need help, support and programmes of various types. Some of them are people for whom I have great respect. Becoming addicted is not always a deliberate act.

Listen, I'm not saying that there aren't genuine people in need of help and that there aren't genuine, successful "rehab" clinic's that actually get scientifically verifiable results.

I'm simply saying that many of them, especially the ones from the "anonymous" programme seem very sinister and shifty and won't publish their results which to me shouts out that they're charlatans.

Nope, it shouts out your a weirdo, with strange views.

How are they meant to show results? Monitor every single person who attended a neeting for the rest of their life? It clearly a ststem that works for sone and not ithers, having views that strongly about addicts and support groups is frankly strange. All my own view obvs.

Super

This is bizzare even for you. You are definitely saying that there is no such thing as "addiction" in the medical sense that most people understand. You have said repeatadly in this thread that there are no addictions just people that lack or cannot apply willpower.


In response to navy saying

Navy wrote:If 'willpower' were the simple and only answer, the World wouldn't have so many addicts.

you respond with

Super wrote:It is, people don't have sufficient willpower.

then

super wrote:Maybe they just don't want to give up sufficiently enough?

You then switch to saying you are only questioning "rehab" as a method of beating addiction, which is not true given we have two quotes above where you dismiss addiction as merely a lack of willpower.

You then switch back to your willpower idea and say

Super wrote:Any addiction CAN be overcome by willpower.

Which is odd because above you say addiction is only a lack of willpower and now switch to saying addiction may exist but it needs willpower to overcome it.


You cannot deny that you at best dismissed addiction as a lack of willpower and at worst suggested it doesn't exist as most people understand it.

Surely if they have a 12 step PROGRAMME, they're monitoring the number of people who start it and fall off the dipso wagon. Sounds like a rather cheap and cynical way to recruit and create more bible bashers, and to keep them in their clutches, which is pretty disgusting.

How couldn't they measure it?

I don't have "strong" views about it. I just think the rehab "industry" is full of new age charlatan claptrap especially in America, of which AA etc are part of it, and the fact they refuse to divulge success states, makes me wonder that it's "success rate" is no higher than will power and probably lower than proper determinable therapies and medication.

It even describes itself as a "spiritual" programme, which is the very definition of claptrap, as there's no such thing as anything "spiritual" or at least it's indistinguishable from something which doesn't exist.


This is quite interesting reading about how it's more of a sinister cult than actual therapy.

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/cult-or-cure-the-aa-backlash-1160113.html

Why would you go to something like this when there's qualified therapists and actual medication which get demonstrable quantitative results?

super_realist wrote: You'd have to prove that being in a "Rehab" environment was better than willpower.

Not really, no. Think of it as a medication that definitely works for a subset of the population, but not necessarily for a wide enough % to convince NICE to recommend it as a wholesale treatment.

super_realist wrote:Surely if they have a 12 step PROGRAMME, they're monitoring the number of people who start it and fall off the dipso wagon. Sounds like a rather cheap and cynical way to recruit and create more bible bashers, and to keep them in their clutches, which is pretty disgusting.

How couldn't they measure it?

I don't have "strong" views about it. I just think the rehab "industry" is full of new age charlatan claptrap especially in America, of which AA etc are part of it, and the fact they refuse to divulge success states, makes me wonder that it's "success rate" is no higher than will power and probably lower than proper determinable therapies and medication.

It even describes itself as a "spiritual" programme, which is the very definition of claptrap, as there's no such thing as anything "spiritual" or at least it's indistinguishable from something which doesn't exist.


This is quite interesting reading about how it's more of a sinister cult than actual therapy.

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/cult-or-cure-the-aa-backlash-1160113.html

Why would you go to something like this when there's qualified therapists and actual medication which get demonstrable quantitative results?

I repeat, they get to meet and relate to people with the same problem(s) and those contacts can be invaluable when someone 'falls off the wagon'.

You're missing the point.

There is NO EVIDENCE that the 12 Step Programme is effective whatsoever. That's why they don't publish their results because they cannot demonstrate it is the programme which has an effect and not anything else which can be achieved without it.

It is more likely to be the contact with fellow dipso's and sharing of problems and support rather than the absurdly stupid 12 Steps which have no scientific basis. That's not contingent upon the AA or any other "Anonymous" programme at all. Group support is not unique to this organisation, and as such they cannot claim their method is effective.

If these 12 steps were effective, you wouldn't need a group. The group effect is what is important, not the 12 step stupidity.

super_realist wrote:You're missing the point.

There is NO EVIDENCE that the 12 Step Programme is effective whatsoever. That's why they don't publish their results because they cannot demonstrate it is the programme which has an effect and not anything else which can be achieved without it.

It is more likely to be the contact with fellow dipso's and sharing of problems and support rather than the absurdly stupid 12 Steps which have no scientific basis. That's not contingent upon the AA or any other "Anonymous" programme at all. Group support is not unique to this organisation, and as such they cannot claim their method is effective.

If these 12 steps were effective, you wouldn't need a group. The group effect is what is important, not the 12 step stupidity.

Whatever. How many times does someone have to point out that if it works for ONE person, it's effective for THAT person? That person likely wouldn't be there if they hadn't reached the bottom of the barrel. Call it placebo, call it whatever.
You're also missing the point about the simple gathering and sharing of experience amongst people who've had the same problems. If all these rehab clinics do is to give a platform for that, they've done something useful. Done with this...

My point is that it's not the Programme that works but the support of fellow dipso's.

It cannot be demonstrated that the Programme is the solution, so why bother? Just have group support.

I'm saying that it's PRECISELY the group contact that is the help, not the programme. So I'm not missing any point.

I really do not see how this has become a bit of an argument. Its really bloody simple, and its all down to individuals.

A lot of people attend AA type support groups and follow the programme, some will abstain, some may relapse and then abstain, some may not follow it through, its all down to individual people. No one in the world can say it does not work, because enough people have followed the 12 step programme and it has helped them.

There are other ways for people to kick an addiction, from cold turkey, to other types of support groups, to gradual withdrawal and rehab centres and probably many other ways. Once again, its obvious that these ways work for some people.

No one can make the sweeping statement that one way doesn't work, because its all down to individuals.

AA is ranked something like 38 out of 48 methods to give up. Hardly a ringing endorsement.

What I'm saying is that the 12 step programme has never been proven to work, as if it did, you wouldn't need to meet as a group.

It is the group element which is the crucial factor in helping people here, not the programme.

super_realist wrote:AA is ranked something like 38 out of 48 methods to give up. Hardly a ringing endorsement.

What I'm saying is that the 12 step programme has never been proven to work, as if it did, you wouldn't need to meet as a group.

It is the group element which is the crucial factor in helping people here, not the programme.

I'm sure for some the real breakthrough is the group therapy and sharing, equally for others it's a combination of the group therapy and the programme. I don't really see how you can empirically prove either argument. I have no doubt that you could find tens of thousands of recovering alcoholics who will tell you the 12 step programme helped, I wouldn't really think they would take a lot of notice of your view that it was unnecessary.

That's exactly what I'm saying Diggers, but the very claim that it's a "spiritual programme" puts it in the same bracket as Homeopathy.

super_realist wrote:You're missing the point.

There is NO EVIDENCE that the 12 Step Programme is effective whatsoever. That's why they don't publish their results because they cannot demonstrate it is the programme which has an effect and not anything else which can be achieved without it.

It is more likely to be the contact with fellow dipso's and sharing of problems and support rather than the absurdly stupid 12 Steps which have no scientific basis. That's not contingent upon the AA or any other "Anonymous" programme at all. Group support is not unique to this organisation, and as such they cannot claim their method is effective.

If these 12 steps were effective, you wouldn't need a group. The group effect is what is important, not the 12 step stupidity.

You have very strong views on this. I think what you are trying to say is that AA did not work for you.

Very good. I barely drink as it is, not likely I'd be a dipso.

There's a support group for that, meetings attended by members most weekends although the venues are open more often. Not obligatory, quite a lot of interaction and good humoured discourse (may not be for you). Is bloody expensive though.

Social Support Groups

Sounds like Woods is receiving "in patient treatment" according to Steiny, though not clear whether it's to help to deal with "insomnia and sleep issues" or opioid addiction.
Whatever, fame seems to have driven him to be a most addictive individual, whether sex, painkillers, probably his pursuit of excellence.
Hope he stays out of the press and recovers to live happily ever after. Not necessarily on the golf course, but as a Dad.

Pretty sad times for Tiger and I agree with Kwini that he should seek a life as a good dad out the limelight.

Although this might be difficult given that all the golf media outlets know any Tiger story (however vacuous) still sells better than the most important "real" golf story.

Well it may all end up being a blessing a disguise for Tiger. If this hadn't become public he could as well have ended up like Prince and Michael Jackson who both checked out due too opioid use.

pedro wrote:Well it may all end up being a blessing a disguise for Tiger. If this hadn't become public he could as well have ended up like Prince and Michael Jackson who both checked out due too opioid use.

What would it being public have to do with anything? Jackson was widely known as the biggest weirdo in showbiz and his "medicine" was hardly a secret, yet he's still brown bread.

Been doing some work on prescribed medicines recently. Addiction is a huge problem in the states due to over prescribing (especially pain killers), and the problem is increasing in the uk. Seems to be exacerbated by the profit motive of both the pharmaceutical industry and medics alike.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/jun/22/opioid-addiction-america-solutions-that-work
Dang me - just found this in todays edition...

"How do you get to be in recovery from opioid addiction?
There are many routes for addiction treatment but the one with the most scientific support combines medication, counseling and recovery meetings.

“If people do those three things together, their chances of getting onto a path of recovery are significantly better than if they try to detoxify off the heroin or the pills they are taking and try to go immediately go to an abstinence-oriented program, where they are not taking any medication to help them during the early stage of their recovery,” said Samuel Ball, president and CEO at the National Center on Addiction and Substance Abuse."

Why can’t people just decide to quit?
There is a narrative, often perpetuated by the media, of people becoming stubborn and quitting on their own once and for all – whether it’s because of a revelation triggered by an emotional low point or, in the case of one person the Guardian spoke with, spending some time in jail where they were forced to withdraw without any support.

“It’s miraculous, and great stories to hear, but I think for many people with opioid addiction, it’s not a realistic thing to plan for, if that kind of epiphany happens for you, it’s wonderful, but you can’t make it happen,” Ball said.

He said the “chances of you staying alive for a longer period of time” are much higher if you access other forms of treatment, particularly medication.

Opioids kill more West Virginians than guns and car accidents combined.

Crikey!
Drug companies were pouring opioids into West Virginia, delivering 780m painkillers into a state of just 1.8m people over a five year period to 2012, according to an investigation by the Charleston Gazette-Mail.

Big pharma chasing money with addictive drugs - now that does stretch credulity!! Surely there must be a reasonable explanation?

puligny wrote:Big pharma chasing money with addictive drugs - now that does stretch credulity!! Surely there must be a reasonable explanation?

You mean it's not all the fault of the big bad corporation?

super_realist wrote:

puligny wrote:Big pharma chasing money with addictive drugs - now that does stretch credulity!! Surely there must be a reasonable explanation?

You mean it's not all the fault of the big bad corporation?

Irony sailing way over someone's head, excuse me if it's mine.

puligny wrote:Big pharma chasing money with addictive drugs - now that does stretch credulity!! Surely there must be a reasonable explanation?

Run out of smarties?

Tee hee!

SmithersJones wrote:

super_realist wrote:

puligny wrote:Big pharma chasing money with addictive drugs - now that does stretch credulity!! Surely there must be a reasonable explanation?

You mean it's not all the fault of the big bad corporation?

Irony sailing way over someone's head, excuse me if it's mine.

It is yours.

Irony 2 Others 0

Toxicology report on Woods suggests marijuana....BBC ITEM

Eyebrow raised at THC (active ingredient in marijuana). Can you get that legally in the US other than through pot in those states that have decriminalised it (which I don't believe Florida is one of)?

Roller,
I believe Florida has legalized "medical" use of marijuana - whether he qualifies is a whole other issue!

Ahh, OK. Distinctly possible for chronic back pain I guess and ties in with "prescribed medication" to which he advises an unexpected reaction.

Given what the list indicates I'd suggest it can't be that unexpected a reaction. Despite my lack of practical knowledge I would have expected a certain amount of dulled reactions and incoherence if not incapacitation after imbibing opiates and THC together. As for using a car...