Lions 2017 - the decider

First topic message reminder :



After months if not years, of debate, arguments and plenty bickering the time has come - The Lions are in New Zealand and the tour has begun!

I think it is fair to say that if you're not a fan of the concept of the Lions then this isn't the thread to bring it up - we have had plenty of that over several months and the debate has been done to death. This thread will hopefully be a positive place where those excited about the tour (like me!) can talk about everything that's going on. That's until Jamie Roberts gets a callup of course...

3 June - Provincial union team (Toll Stadium, Whangarei)

7 June - Blues (Eden Park, Auckland)

10 June - Crusaders (AMI Stadium, Christchurch)

13 June - Highlanders (Forsyth Barr Stadium, Dunedin)

17 June - Maori (International Stadium, Rotorua)

20 June - Chiefs (Waikato Stadium, Hamilton)

24 June - New Zealand (First Test, Eden Park, Auckland)

27 June - Hurricanes (Westpac Stadium, Wellington)

1 July - New Zealand (Second Test, Westpac Stadium, Wellington)

8 July - New Zealand (Third Test, Eden Park, Auckland)

The Loaded Dog wrote:

eirebilly wrote:

The Loaded Dog wrote:

eirebilly wrote:
I actually thought the ball went backwards. It only seemed to go forward due to Williams going backwards further than the ball.

Looked like a bit of play acting by him as well though.

No it definitely went forward. No doubt there.
The problem with the law is the word "intention". Owens was obviously right there next to Williams hoping to gain some advantage. How can one then say that it was unintentional? If the ball had travelled backwards off Williams... then fine. Play on. Owens then intends to take advantage of the spill.

Owens definitely played the ball and immediately dropped it, it was simply a natural reaction. If it was forward (which I still doubt) then it is a penalty.

Anyways, I honestly feel that Williams should have been subbed earlier and Watson sent to 15 as Williams has been very weak under the high ball all series. It was a good call from the AB's to target him with that kick off as it was always going to be 50/50 with him under it. They may not have taken that option had a more secure catcher been on the field.

I understand it's a bit hard to see through that beer stein glued to your face.
Anyway mate... all the best. Nice image on FB a few weeks back. It's real isn't it? If so he will be another champ!

Very real bud

eirebilly wrote:

The Loaded Dog wrote:

eirebilly wrote:

The Loaded Dog wrote:

eirebilly wrote:
I actually thought the ball went backwards. It only seemed to go forward due to Williams going backwards further than the ball.

Looked like a bit of play acting by him as well though.

No it definitely went forward. No doubt there.
The problem with the law is the word "intention". Owens was obviously right there next to Williams hoping to gain some advantage. How can one then say that it was unintentional? If the ball had travelled backwards off Williams... then fine. Play on. Owens then intends to take advantage of the spill.

Owens definitely played the ball and immediately dropped it, it was simply a natural reaction. If it was forward (which I still doubt) then it is a penalty.

Anyways, I honestly feel that Williams should have been subbed earlier and Watson sent to 15 as Williams has been very weak under the high ball all series. It was a good call from the AB's to target him with that kick off as it was always going to be 50/50 with him under it. They may not have taken that option had a more secure catcher been on the field.

I understand it's a bit hard to see through that beer stein glued to your face.
Anyway mate... all the best. Nice image on FB a few weeks back. It's real isn't it? If so he will be another champ!

Very real bud

Excellent... congratulations!

fa0019 wrote:Farrell had a bad game yes.. but he kicked the goals and lets be honest most of his shots were right on margins and yet he put them away.
Few would have made such shots under pressure.

Neil Jenkins won the series for the lions in 97.... playing at fullback and their were probably a dozen players if not more better suited and he was drilled in attack. Yet he kicked the shots and kept the lions in the game especially in the 2nd test.

You have to say the same for Farrell.

As of George. He made 2 big mistakes in attacking lineouts but in reality it was as mucH to do with the call then anything else.

He had a bad series. He was a liability in all three games.

Just be happy you have Sexton then guns. Should be an easy 6ns for you as we carry Farrell again.

Sexton is very much yesterday's man.

Gatland should have jettisoned him earlier. Big call, but I think the Lions would have won without him shovelling the ball on or running in circles and getting smashed and turned over.

Best couldn't even speak straight into the mic. It sounded like he was overthrowing his voice on quite a few occasions.

Cyril wrote:Itoje, Faletau and Davies probably the best players today for the Lions. Warburton was good too.

Farrell was ice cool with the boot but the backs didn't get much chance to shine. Watson did well with what he had.

Farrell was probably the Lions worst player of the series. A real weak link.

Davies SOB Daly Murray Sexton Furlong Watson Warburton and Itoje were all the better players of the series.

Cyril wrote:Best couldn't even speak straight into the mic. It sounded like he was overthrowing his voice on quite a few occasions.

Thought George had great darts? Body of a darts player maybe but his one strength was absent when required in the last two tests. Hype over?

I think that Farrell's kicking tonight is being over emphasised as being the reason the Lions drew. In fairness, Sexton is an international kicker who could have kicked those as well and there was also Daly for distance kicks.

Not slating the boy but his other contributions were not that good in the series in my mind.

I still believe that the the Lions would have won that game with Te'o at 12 and either Farrell or Sexton at 10.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

Cyril wrote:Itoje, Faletau and Davies probably the best players today for the Lions. Warburton was good too.

Farrell was ice cool with the boot but the backs didn't get much chance to shine. Watson did well with what he had.

Farrell was probably the Lions worst player of the series. A real weak link.

Davies SOB Daly Murray Sexton Furlong Watson Warburton and Itoje were all the better players of the series.

Yet he kicked the points and was integral in the Test tries last week.

Not impressed by Murray or Sexton. Furlong was ok.

A real English and Welsh effort to draw the series.

So much of 'if you had chosen MY player he would have done everything the incumbent did and more'

Farrell's poor tour was epitomised when he threw an interception when we about 2 yards from their try line and the All Blacks nearly scored from a counter.

Although, fair play to him, he kicked his goals today.

lostinwales wrote:So much of 'if you had chosen MY player he would have done everything the incumbent did and more'

It wouldn't be a Lions tour without that!

Online anyway...

Guns, you are funny.

Cyril wrote:A real English, French and Welsh effort to draw the series.

Nailed it

Taylorman wrote:Well done Lions.... I think.
Great series and we sure did underestimate the class of the Lions side.

Frankly, I wish the Lions toured here every year.

This was a great experience. Kudos to the Lions class of 2017!

Classy post Taylorman. Cheers. Good hosts. I enjoyed that series more than I expected to. The All Blacks are serious class but I'm pleased with some of the rugby the Lions played as a relatively scratch team.

ebop wrote:

Cyril wrote:A real English, French and Welsh effort to draw the series.

Nailed it

We love the French. Cheese, wine and referees.

Cyril wrote:

ebop wrote:

Cyril wrote:A real English, French and Welsh effort to draw the series.

Nailed it

We love the French. Cheese, wine and referees.

Same

They know how to make the good stuff!

Griff wrote:

Taylorman wrote:Well done Lions.... I think.
Great series and we sure did underestimate the class of the Lions side.

Frankly, I wish the Lions toured here every year.

This was a great experience. Kudos to the Lions class of 2017!

Classy post Taylorman. Cheers. Good hosts. I enjoyed that series more than I expected to. The All Blacks are serious class but I'm pleased with some of the rugby the Lions played as a relatively scratch team.

Mate, the Lions were awesome

Totally over delivered

Cyril wrote:

lostinwales wrote:So much of 'if you had chosen MY player he would have done everything the incumbent did and more'

It wouldn't be a Lions tour without that!

Online anyway...

To be fair Launch or Gray......

So proud of the boys, the Fans, everything, make Gatland a knight.

Wonderful tour

Exiledinborders wrote:

The Loaded Dog wrote:

eirebilly wrote:

The Loaded Dog wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

The Loaded Dog wrote:What an anti-climax to the series.
Offside is offside. NZ robbed there thanks to Poite.

Incorrect. Emphasis is on their being an intention to be offside and interfer and he has no time to react and pulled out immediately.

Was their intention though with him standing so close to the receiver... as if he was intending to gain some advantage should the ball have gone backwards? Can't have it both ways!

I actually thought the ball went backwards. It only seemed to go forward due to Williams going backwards further than the ball.

Looked like a bit of play acting by him as well though.

No it definitely went forward. No doubt there.
The problem with the law is the word "intention". Owens was obviously right there next to Williams hoping to gain some advantage. How can one then say that it was unintentional? If the ball had travelled backwards off Williams... then fine. Play on. Owens then intends to take advantage of the spill.

Personally I think that should have been a penalty to the All Blacks. Having said that the penalty they had at the start against Warburton which was also just in front of the posts was not a penalty so these things even themselves out.

Some of the All Blacks fans having showed themselves to be bad winners in the first match and bad losers in the second, are now managing to be bad drawers too.

 Jeez get over yourself  Exiledinborders there has been some brilliant rugby, the best invasion of any sporting fans we have ever seen in our country, and you resort to bad mouthing New Zealand fans, Players in the Lions team have far exceeded what was ever expected of them, the ABs have hosted a mighty contest, enjoy the rugby for what has been dished up to by both teams, you objection to New Zealand fans is vastly different to the Welsh, English fans I have personally met and enjoyed time with over the last month or so. Rugby has achieved a lot with this tour and credit should go to all the contributors.

Davies was the standout player for the Lions on this tour, he may have had a slightly quieter day today but he wasn't really given as much service as he should have got. What service he did get, he did very well. Very consistent through the whole tour.

SOB was a beast in the first 2 tests and was playing well today before he had to go off injured. CJ Stander did very little for the second half, I did not notice him on the pitch if I am honest.

Faletau was excellent through the whole series as well and never let the side down, Mr dependable.

Itoje was excellent but he can be a penalty machine, if he tightens up in that regard he could be a superstar of the game.

I feel kind of odd about the draw, really felt that the AB's were there for the taking the last two tests.

Taylorman wrote:Well done Lions.... I think.
Great series and we sure did underestimate the class of the Lions side.

Frankly, I wish the Lions toured here every year.

This was a great experience. Kudos to the Lions class of 2017!

Congrats to Jon Davies for being voted player of the series by the Lions players. I think it's probably the right call, but Itoje was pretty close too.

Final thoughts from our group of 35 down here:
-haven't seen an AB's side drop so many passes and miss so many try scoring opportunities as they did today;
-given how many passes were dropped or misplaced by the Lions today a draw was the best result we could have hoped for;
-we'd have taken a drawn series if offered one at tour start;
-we hope box kicking can be banned in NH rugby at it has become a really effective way of giving the ball away to the opposition;
-plaudits for the Lions forward's coaches but the less said about Howley the better.
-by common consent Henderson,Tipuric and Lawes are the three Lions who might have featured more in the Tests but Gatland does not know how to get the best out of Tipuric;
-for us Welshies in the group we now know that Biggar can play flat and that Warburton is a 6.5 not a 6 or 7.

To the magnificent Lions supporters we say many,many thanks.Just amazing.We were like a red rolling tide.

Not many sides come down here and take anything away so this was a remarkable achievement by the Lions.Well done boys.Roll on SA in 2021.

RiscaGame wrote:Congrats to Jon Davies for being voted player of the series by the Lions players. I think it's probably the right call, but Itoje was pretty close too.

Them two, O'Brien and Alun Wyn Jones were the most worthy candidates for that accolade.

Credit where it is due, Gatland and his team have moulded a very effective team. What was most impressive was the ability to change his tactics - I never thought he would play with a ball playing 12, but he did. I really didn't give the Lions a hope in hell, but they will leave disappointed they didn't win, without ever putting in a full 80min performance.

Big hand to the Kiwi team and coaching staff, they would have every right to grumble about the last decision - it was a penalty every day of the week - but they were very dignified in their responses.

A very anti-climactic ending, to what has been a generally good tour.

mikey_dragon wrote:

RiscaGame wrote:Congrats to Jon Davies for being voted player of the series by the Lions players. I think it's probably the right call, but Itoje was pretty close too.

Them two, O'Brien and Alun Wyn Jones were the most worthy candidates for that accolade.

It was only when he got hit by an All Black who was carded that I noticed he was playing. What a contrast to Itoje who seemed to be everywhere.

Exiledinborders wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

RiscaGame wrote:Congrats to Jon Davies for being voted player of the series by the Lions players. I think it's probably the right call, but Itoje was pretty close too.

Them two, O'Brien and Alun Wyn Jones were the most worthy candidates for that accolade.

It was only when he got hit by an All Black who was carded that I noticed he was playing. What a contrast to Itoje who seemed to be everywhere.

Need to pay attention and take the blinkers off then, don't you? AWJ was unconscious for a moment and still had to come back on, what a guy. 9 Lions tests in a row what a player. Let us know when Gray can do that.

Gatland and his medical staff brought a player back onto the pitch who had been unconcious? Serious accusation there mikey but if you're right I hope they punish him severely.

mikey_dragon wrote:

Exiledinborders wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

RiscaGame wrote:Congrats to Jon Davies for being voted player of the series by the Lions players. I think it's probably the right call, but Itoje was pretty close too.

Them two, O'Brien and Alun Wyn Jones were the most worthy candidates for that accolade.

It was only when he got hit by an All Black who was carded that I noticed he was playing. What a contrast to Itoje who seemed to be everywhere.

Need to pay attention and take the blinkers off then, don't you? AWJ was unconscious for a moment and still had to come back on, what a guy. 9 Lions tests in a row what a player. Let us know when Gray can do that.

The younger bigger stronger fitter more hard working Gray. Needs to get picked then I am sure he could do some good. However someone else might need to take the blinkers off for that to happen.

(And he'd have to get past Launchbury but that is a whole other argument)

Davies, sob and itoje have been my best players of the series (should keep you all happy with one of each, if only there was a scot)

Farrell and sexton were pretty poor throughout, awj pretty anonymous whole series

Fantastic series overall, great advert for rugby and future lions tours

https://twitter.com/keithclarke1/status/883697230426845189

Any of our Kiwi friends care to discuss this? No Wonder Read didn't moan too much about the end decision

RiscaGame wrote:https://twitter.com/keithclarke1/status/883697230426845189

Any of our Kiwi friends care to discuss this? No Wonder Read didn't moan too much about the end decision

Whats the problem he's obviously just very fast off the mark. Very very fast

I think the main takeaway for other nations is that a sufficiently fast, aggressive smothering defence will push the All Blacks into making mistakes. They aren't infallible.

I was a bit down on the tour earlier....but I think that's because the morning games watched at home on the sofa take a lot of the excitement out. Last tour I was living in Hong Kong so I went to the opening match and had big nights out at HKFC clubhouse watching all the games with an awesome atmosphere.

Do plan on doing a tour soon, so maybe saffa lions, or the Japan WC, one of the two.

Did any one get Man of the Match? With the game being a draw i guess it would be hard to select one.

Think Jordie Barrett did Madge

lostinwales wrote:

RiscaGame wrote:https://twitter.com/keithclarke1/status/883697230426845189

Any of our Kiwi friends care to discuss this? No Wonder Read didn't moan too much about the end decision

Whats the problem he's obviously just very fast off the mark. Very very fast

Like Linford in the 96 Olympic final right

Cheers for that.

Honors even, or so it appears. I think both teams know who the real winners are.

The Lions put on a heroic defense and the likes of AWJ, Sam and JD2 shone as I knew all along that they would. I do hope the naysayers will know acknowledge the value that AWJ has been to that pack but they probably won't.

I have never seen a NZ team make so many errors, but they failed to adapt to the Lions defense and coughed up so much ball which the Lions seemed incapable of knowing how to handle; they panicked every time they turned over the ball.

There is an issue with the way in which the NZ team regard foul play that needs to be addressed urgently. Hansen's rep has taken a huge blow this tour.

I expect to see a new look Wales come from this tour, its clear the key contributors have been AWJ and Sam. Faletau shored up the pack like the nice quietly steely guy he is and I just hope Zinzan has recovered from treading in dog shoite.

For England George has finished at par after an almost fatal performance yesterday, Itoje is outstanding and will continue to develop. Lawes and Mako had fine tours, Daly, Nowell and Watson shored up a back 3 which looked threatening but never truly delivered aside from Williams spectacular break. Teo also did well and will go on to big things. Farrell, mercurial but class is permanent and he came good. For Ireland Sexton is at the end now, almost wanted to see him put out of his misery last night. Furlong was very strong, Murray sublime.

And then there were two, the class acts of The 2017 Lions. Up front the superb Tullow Tank, an irresistibly physical force. Such a shame he was taken out as he was but I hope the referrals reveal that for what it was. Indeed I hope that everyone now realizes that in NZ you are dealing with suspect discipline and conduct.

Obvious players of the series and Lions star was JD2. He was that crucial link between a debatable midfield and the outside backs and his spectacular defending was a beacon for the lions blitz and scramble defense for the entire series. He is peaking and those cynical detractors who didnt even have him on tour need to wake up and recognize he is a the best 13 in World rugby.

Last word to Gats. In Wales we've known what a legend he is, his association has cost him much from those that hate Wales and are too ignorant to recognize what he has achieved. But this ridiculously hard showcase has proven he is the man of the moment, to take NZ this close also shows exactly where he is heading next, like Henry and Hansen after their Wales Academy, the next coach of the All Blacks. Perhaps then and only then, they will return to being the best in the world.

New Zealand are the best team in the World.

Would quite like gatland to coach nz. Howley for wales. Sorted.

New Zealand are the best team in the world according to the rankings which are unaffected by this series. It is almost as ridiculous as Read's silver cap that these games are even considered to be Test standard.

I liked Read's little cap  It made him look like he was going to a rather jazzy school reunion.

Amazing effort by the Lions, although it’s gotta be said the ABs choked it somewhat when everyone was expecting a backlash – they don’t like it up ‘em Captain Mainwaring. However, they’re still the number 1 side, the best. It’s just that their aura of invincibility has taken quite a slapping. Good news for rest – teams should be queuing up to have a crack.

Cyril wrote:I liked Read's little cap  It made him look like he was going to a rather jazzy school reunion.

appropriate headgear after being taught such a lesson in humility.

The Great Aukster wrote:New Zealand are the best team in the world according to the rankings which are unaffected by this series. It is almost as ridiculous as Read's silver cap that these games are even considered to be Test standard.

Even if they did count they'd still be no. 1, so kind of a moot point. Lions would be down at number 9 somewhere if the points counted from 2005.

The Lions invitational team does count as Test opposition - That's why Read was awarded the cap was it not?

The Great Aukster wrote:The Lions invitational team does count as Test opposition - That's why Read was awarded the cap was it not?

Yes it does, but it doesn't contribute to the rankings formula. Test caps and the ranking formula are two different entities.