Ward vs Kovalev - Who've you got?

AdamT wrote:I don't care about him calling out Floyd lol. He can't move up a division, but will move down to fight a smaller man.

You all cream yourselves over him, so yes that suggests you think he is great.

Who "creams themselves" over him? Do you have any examples of this gushing praise? Any articles claiming he's "top ten definitely" etc.?

Ward and Hopkins both called Floyd out, too. It's because they'd make a fortune to fight a guy who couldn't pop a balloon.

hazharrison wrote:

AdamT wrote:I don't care about him calling out Floyd lol. He can't move up a division, but will move down to fight a smaller man.

You all cream yourselves over him, so yes that suggests you think he is great.

Who "creams themselves" over him? Do you have any examples of this gushing praise? Any articles claiming he's "top ten definitely" etc.?

Go back and read plenty of your old posts and read all of Rodney's and that is two examples.

Every dicussion like this depends on who you like and who you don't, people will protest otherwise but that's what it boils down to. Certain posters end up tangled up in their own inconsistencies whereby they have to credit one boxer they don't like but end up shifting the goalposts again.

Golovkin has sound technique and superb footwork but his level of opposition has been poor, i'm not one for favouring longevity and when it comes to it it's about who you've beaten.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:Every dicussion like this depends on who you like and who you don't, people will protest otherwise but that's what it boils down to. Certain posters end up tangled up in their own inconsistencies whereby they have to credit one boxer they don't like but end up shifting the goalposts again.

Golovkin has sound technique and superb footwork but his level of opposition has been poor, i'm not one for favouring longevity and when it comes to it it's about who you've beaten.

Agreed. But is this an unfair way of rating a fighter against previous eras? Like you say, he has sound technique and superb footwork. Add in his power and amateur pedigree......do you not think he would compete in the other eras? Granted the opposition is poor so i agree longevity wont count for much when your knocking over sub standard fighters at "world level" - although he has beaten "decent" fighters.

I think he would compete in other eras, but only as a contender. He's similar to Wlad, good timing for his career.

I don't give amateur pedigree any credence in the pro ranks, the two are/were too far removed to be compared.

You can only beat what's in front of you but it doesn't look good for GGG's prospects against the great Middleweights that he struggled so much with the best fighter he's fought, a man who was wiped out Pirog. The stars haven't aligned for him too well but you can only judge somebody on who they have fought not who they could potentially beat.

Neither do I because, many an amateur hangs around beating younger, inexperienced kids. Most other top amateurs are turned pro by a certain age.

Mike Tyson didn't go to the Olympics, but look what he did as a pro. Obviously being a good amateur will help in the pro game. But the rules are different and fight duration plays an important part.

Amir Khan still looks like a great 3-4 round fighter, but sadly he sometimes struggles after that.

GGG is a very good fighter, if I deny that, then I'm lying. Hype job is a bad way to describe the fella, but I do think many overrate him a lot.

Tyson was a top Amateur...National champion at least twice...in the juniors.

Lost to Tillman in the box offs.....You only have to hear how Holy and the rest of the "class of 84" wax lyrical about Henry to realise how good Tillman was over three rounds and remember Tyson was 16.

I know he was, but he didn't have a Lomachenko or GGG amateur record. Granted he was pro since he was a kid. It was just a point, that you don't have to be a very top amateur, to be a top pro.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:I don't give amateur pedigree any credence in the pro ranks, the two are/were too far removed to be compared.

You can only beat what's in front of you but it doesn't look good for GGG's prospects against the great Middleweights that he struggled so much with the best fighter he's fought, a man who was wiped out Pirog. The stars haven't aligned for him too well but you can only judge somebody on who they have fought not who they could potentially beat.

But to play devils advocate here.......Marquez struggled with Pacquiao.....who was knocked out by Singsurat....

I dont really buy that. What would you say if he beats Alvarez? Saunders? Steps up and wins a belt at higher weight?

You know what? We will just wait and see.

Everyone knows my opinion on GGG. I'm open to change, if he goes on and proves himself. I will acknowledge I was wrong, if he goes on and whips top tier competition.

I doubt many of you will do the same if he doesn't succeed.

AdamT wrote:You know what? We will just wait and see.

Everyone knows my opinion on GGG. I'm open to change, if he goes on and proves himself. I will acknowledge I was wrong, if he goes on and whips top tier competition.

I doubt many of you will do the same  if he doesn't succeed.

yup you've changed your opinion on him a few times already... change your mind any more and i'll have to check i'm not marred to you Adam

With all the arse licking Adam does...Your sex life will be good.

Modern fighters suffer because of the amount of titles..

Burns is a three weight world champion and he shows the benefit of shopping around for average champions

Says it all really when a guy is a 3 weight champ and not even PPV worthy..

Fans have caught on to this ABC garbage....Hearn has too...He is smarter now than he used to be in ABC stiff-hunting.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:With all the arse licking Adam does...Your sex life will be good.

I said I was open to change, what's problem with that?

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Modern fighters suffer because of the amount of titles..

Burns is a three weight world champion and he shows the benefit of shopping around for average champions

Says it all really when a guy is a 3 weight champ and not even PPV worthy..

Fans have caught on to this ABC garbage....Hearn has too...He is smarter now than he used to be in ABC stiff-hunting.

What do you know about modern fighters bitch tits??

No good fights would EVER happen if everyone had the same attitude as Son of Kovalev! Think about it. Everyone would be staying at home saying "I'm scared of getting robbed" or some such BS.

Fights we wouldn't have seen or be seeing this year if every fighter acted like Mr Special Needs;

Anthony Joshua vs Wladomir Klitschko
Demetrius Andrade vs Jack Culcay
Kell Brook vs Errol Spence
Gervonta Davis vs Liam Walsh
Joseph Parker vs Hughie Fury
Gennady Golovkin vs Danny Jacobs
Jorge Linares vs Anthony Crolla
Ricky Burns vs Julius Indongo
David Lemieux vs Curtis Stevens
Oleksander Usyk vs Michael Hunter
Vasyl Lomachenko vs Jason Sosa
Dmitry Bivol vs Samuel Clarkson
Roman Gonzalez vs Rungvisai
Luis Ortiz vs Derric Rossy

Basically every big fight! None of them would happen if every fighter acted like Ward. So we wouldn't have ANY real world champions!

What??

Dylan1979 wrote:No good fights would EVER happen if everyone had the same attitude as Son of Kovalev! Think about it. Everyone would be staying at home saying "I'm scared of getting robbed" or some such BS.

Fights we wouldn't have seen or be seeing this year if every fighter acted like Mr Special Needs;

Anthony Joshua vs Wladomir Klitschko
Demetrius Andrade vs Jack Culcay
Kell Brook vs Errol Spence
Gervonta Davis vs Liam Walsh
Joseph Parker vs Hughie Fury
Gennady Golovkin vs Danny Jacobs
Jorge Linares vs Anthony Crolla
Ricky Burns vs Julius Indongo
David Lemieux vs Curtis Stevens
Oleksander Usyk vs Michael Hunter
Vasyl Lomachenko vs Jason Sosa
Dmitry Bivol vs Samuel Clarkson
Roman Gonzalez vs Rungvisai
Luis Ortiz vs Derric Rossy

Basically every big fight! None of them would happen if every fighter acted like Ward. So we wouldn't have ANY real world champions!

Don't sit on the fence Dylan...

He hasn't been sitting on the fence, he's been scouring the internet for an interview with Virgil hunter saying Ward couldn't make 168 while he was making fake offers for a golovkin fight. He'll find it and post it anytime now.

Are you kidding Dylan, jaysus no wonder the promoters can never get it right, if the fans ain't even got half a clue.

I mean what does it say about Kov if this huge ducker, master of manipulation, never faced anyone decent, got in the ring with him and beat him (according to the scorecards, never mind personal bias). Kove must be absolute dog tripe, and how did he never get the pillow punching, lacklustre defending mardy arse out of there. Waste of time.

Told you all, Stevenson is the man ;-)

Ward's deluded (see link) but sometimes fighters need a chip on their shoulder to stay motivated. He's created his own.

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/andre-ward-blaming-not-media-lack-respect-attention-065257741.html?soc_src=mail&soc_trk=ma

that's a good article that Haz (although it seemed to end really abruptly), And i pretty much agree with the writer. Ward doesn't seem like the type of guy to help himself. He obviously has a really high opinion of himself and i'd guess if you don't go along with that then it would be likely he'd freeze you out.

Needs to step it up and cement a legacy now and i'd love to see him take hard fight after hard fight (or fight often). Think this rematch is going to be very interesting

Derbymanc wrote:that's a good article that Haz (although it seemed to end really abruptly), And i pretty much agree with the writer. Ward doesn't seem like the type of guy to help himself. He obviously has a really high opinion of himself and i'd guess if you don't go along with that then it would be likely he'd freeze you out.

Needs to step it up and cement a legacy now and i'd love to see him take hard fight after hard fight (or fight often). Think this rematch is going to be very interesting

Think there's a "read more" button near the end with a couple of extra paragraphs.

The problem is, he could beat Kovalev and then not fight again this year.

I agree with the writer in that's his biggest problem. IF he beats Kov and disappears for a year whilst Kov carries on, people will know more (and probably have more respect) about him than Ward and Ward effectively is starting again when he comes back. why noone has explained this to him is beyond me.

Yes your great, one of the best Wardy boy, but noone really knows you or remembers you properly cause you keep disappearing. We're gonna have a really busy year and get you fights every time we can, then next year you can take extended breaks and people will be salivating to have you back

Wards sh1t, Kov is Sh1t, modern boxing is sh1t.

Bring back the 80's!!

mobilemaster8 wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:I don't give amateur pedigree any credence in the pro ranks, the two are/were too far removed to be compared.

You can only beat what's in front of you but it doesn't look good for GGG's prospects against the great Middleweights that he struggled so much with the best fighter he's fought, a man who was wiped out Pirog. The stars haven't aligned for him too well but you can only judge somebody on who they have fought not who they could potentially beat.

But to play devils advocate here.......Marquez struggled with Pacquiao.....who was knocked out by Singsurat....

I dont really buy that. What would you say if he beats Alvarez? Saunders? Steps up and wins a belt at higher weight?

Marquez isn't rated as highly as he would be if he beat Pacquiao more convincingly, so I don't see the point of that?

That hasn't happened yet so again it's not relevant, Saunders isn't on Jacobs level so doesn't really add a lot, much depends on what Jacobs goes on to do.

I've never liked Ward. Smug and arrogant. But a lot of elite sportsman are, they wouldn't get where they are without the self belief and many great champions have used the 'worlds against me'  chip to drive them on.

His popularity, or lack of it, is 3 fold. Inactivity, a pretty dull style, a lack of charisma.

milkyboy wrote:I've never liked Ward. Smug and arrogant. But a lot of elite sportsman are, they wouldn't get where they are without the self belief and many great champions have used the 'worlds against me'  chip to drive them on.

His popularity, or lack of it, is 3 fold. Inactivity, a pretty dull style, a lack of charisma.

Who had the biggest chip (Hatton jokes aside)?

Hopkins? Ali? Johnson? Holmes? Jones Jr.?

Holmes hands down.

Derbymanc wrote:Are you kidding Dylan, jaysus no wonder the promoters can never get it right, if the fans ain't even got half a clue.

I mean what does it say about Kov if this huge ducker, master of manipulation, never faced anyone decent, got in the ring with him and beat him (according to the scorecards, never mind personal bias). Kove must be absolute dog tripe, and how did he never get the pillow punching, lacklustre defending mardy arse out of there. Waste of time.

Told you all, Stevenson is the man ;-)

You're missing the point - if every fighter refused to leave his home country, where would boxing be at right now?

Ward thinks fighting in Vegas constitutes him being a road warrior.

Larry's was definitely large, Marv had a healthy sized one too... plenty to choose from wouldn't want to pick a winner!

Dylan1979 wrote:

Derbymanc wrote:Are you kidding Dylan, jaysus no wonder the promoters can never get it right, if the fans ain't even got half a clue.

I mean what does it say about Kov if this huge ducker, master of manipulation, never faced anyone decent, got in the ring with him and beat him (according to the scorecards, never mind personal bias). Kove must be absolute dog tripe, and how did he never get the pillow punching, lacklustre defending mardy arse out of there. Waste of time.

Told you all, Stevenson is the man ;-)

You're missing the point - if every fighter refused to leave his home country, where would boxing be at right now?

Ward thinks fighting in Vegas constitutes him being a road warrior.

Different for the Yankee doodles though Dylan... the others go to America for the money, not out of some doey-eyed desire to prove themselves as road warriors.

milkyboy wrote:

Dylan1979 wrote:

Derbymanc wrote:Are you kidding Dylan, jaysus no wonder the promoters can never get it right, if the fans ain't even got half a clue.

I mean what does it say about Kov if this huge ducker, master of manipulation, never faced anyone decent, got in the ring with him and beat him (according to the scorecards, never mind personal bias). Kove must be absolute dog tripe, and how did he never get the pillow punching, lacklustre defending mardy arse out of there. Waste of time.

Told you all, Stevenson is the man ;-)

You're missing the point - if every fighter refused to leave his home country, where would boxing be at right now?

Ward thinks fighting in Vegas constitutes him being a road warrior.

Different for the Yankee doodles though Dylan... the others go to America for the money, not out of some doey-eyed desire to prove themselves as road warriors.

Fair point, but it takes the p1ss when people give him props for winning the Super 6 when he was the only one who didn't fight on the road. Then won't go to Canada to fight Bute cuz "they rob African Americans in Canada" - Bute then offered to fight him in Cali - still didn't happen.

Could have rematched Froch at Wembley too, would have been his best pay day by far.

What's the point calling someone a 'World Champ' when they've never fought outside of their protected base.

He got a cushioned ride in the super 6 and yes he's full of it. No arguments there.

milkyboy wrote:He hasn't been sitting on the fence, he's been scouring the internet for an interview with Virgil hunter saying Ward couldn't make 168 while he was making fake offers for a golovkin fight. He'll find it and post it anytime now.

https://www.boxing247.com/boxing-news/virgil-hunter-andre-ward/72568

Hunter seems to be saying the complete opposite.

Ward would definitely make 168 for Golovkin. I think it was Froch saying he could make 170.

BoxingFan88 wrote:I've told every single person on here, Ward had no desire to fight GGG at 168

BECAUSE HE CAN'T MAKE THE WEIGHT ANYMORE

So lets stop with this nonsense about them ducking each other, they just missed each other

He said that he can't make 168 ages ago

Hammersmith harrier wrote:https://www.boxing247.com/boxing-news/virgil-hunter-andre-ward/72568

Hunter seems to be saying the complete opposite.

Seems like Team Ward can't make up their own minds.

I can't find anything of Andre Ward saying two years ago he couldn't make 168lbs which is the point in question.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:I can't find anything of Andre Ward saying two years ago he couldn't make 168lbs which is the point in question.

I remember him saying that

There must be a link to it if he said it.

There's video evidence of hunter saying it hammy. It's just been suspiciously removed from the case file

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

milkyboy wrote:He hasn't been sitting on the fence, he's been scouring the internet for an interview with Virgil hunter saying Ward couldn't make 168 while he was making fake offers for a golovkin fight. He'll find it and post it anytime now.

https://www.boxing247.com/boxing-news/virgil-hunter-andre-ward/72568

Hunter seems to be saying the complete opposite.

Virgil needs to lay off the vodka

As Milky said Dylan, the money's in America at the moment and to be fair to the yanks, fighting around America isn't exactly like fighting round the UK,

He is an arrogant arse though and I can't stand the bloke but he's a very good boxer. His legacy will be defined over the next few years as if it carries on how it has then I can see him being labelled a wasted talent (Yes he's beaten some very good opposition but there's still a feeling he could do a lot more)

The money is in American reasoning doesnt really hold true for Ward though. In the Super 6 he alone didnt travel. In fact he only had one fight outside his home State in the Super 6. The other American entree's fought internationally (and lost). Froch, Abraham and Kessler (the latter 2 had large partisan home followings that were way ahead of Ward at the time) only had one home fight. You cant make excuses for Ward not to travelling. It was a huge advantage in a competition that underpinned the importance home advantage had.

Up until he hit the jackpot with RocNation a couple of years ago, who decided to overpay him to fight overmatched fighters, he didnt draw big money fighting out of Oakland. Half full attendances in the Oracle arena were the norm. But he still didnt consider travelling. Hes an absolute stay at home fighter in every sense.

No one was making excuses for him catchy. Dylan as part of his anti- Ward campaign, decided to produce a lengthy list of fights that would never have happened if the fighters (generally none American) hadn't travelled. I pointed out that most travel to America for a reason. Dylan said Ward had it easy in the super 6. I agreed.

Did he flat refuse to travel? He wasn't the big name to be making demands... or did HBO/Abraham/Kessler want US exposure? Genuinely don't know the answer

He did of course win his Olympic gold in Europe but only entered because he thought it was in Athens, Florida... and was a bit Chippy when the racists in the IOC refused his reasonable request to move the Olympics to Oakland.

Ward has never drawn flies, I don't think anyone is disputing that, he likes to fight at home, I don't think anyone is disputing that either. Chances are, if he was born in khazakstan he'd travel though.

I thought I didn't like the guy, I don't particularly like watching him fight, but the relentless knocking of him on here at every opportunity is something else.

Ward like Oscar...Floyd...Manny will be appreciated more when they are out of sight.

Just wish there was more consistency of argument...

Leonard never fought outside of North America.....and Ward's cv is a damn sight better than any other fighter presently in Boxing.

Objectivity is in short supply with Andre.

The knocking of Ward, is just the natural reaction to the constant bombardment of people saying how great Ward is, not to mention his great personality.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Ward like Oscar...Floyd...Manny will be appreciated more when they are out of sight.

Just wish there was more consistency of argument...

Leonard never fought outside of North America.....and Ward's cv is a damn sight better than any other fighter presently in Boxing.

Objectivity is in short supply with Andre.

Hey, anytime you want to knock Leonard count me in.

The money being in America is a moot point regards Ward. Irrelevant. If anything, more lucrative bouts would have been available to Ward if he had been willing to travel.

The point was made broadly that if every boxer adopted Wards mentality, then no big fights would happen. I agree with this. He relies on other fighters making the sacrifices. If they dont, then the fights dont happen.

I dont buy at all he is open to travelling, because if he was he would have done it, especially in the Super 6. Clearly he has a problem with it. He deserves ciriticism for that, in tournament where every other fighter had to travel multiple times. And no I dont belive at all that Kessler or Abraham preffered to travel to the States to face Ward for US exposure rather than have the fight at home. I think all of the other fighters in the competition were willing to make the sacrifices to make the fights happen. Apart from Ward.

There are fine margins boxing which can hinge on something as simple as home advantage or the disruption caused by travelling. If Froch v Dirrell happens in the States, maybe Froch loses a decision. If Abraham v Dirrell happens in Germany, maybe Abraham is awarded a TKO win. If Ward v Kessler happens in Denmrk, maybe Ward has a ref on his case and gets deducted points or thrown out of the fight. Unfortunately Ward makes his opponents do all the sacrificing. A big reason why I dont like the guy.