Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

First topic message reminder :

So it all kicks off today with England's game against Bangladesh at the oval

My prediction is victory for Australia overall....

Should be a really entertaining tournament!

[VTR]

England to face Pakistan in the semis then. Will be strong favourites for that one. Hope the selectors stop being stubborn and drop Roy, can't afford any passengers for the next two games, especially ones who selfishly review without even looking at the other player let alone asking them

[KO-KING]

Did anyone see Junaid Khan bowl, oh my god, do Pakistan have a full line up of chuckers

His first wicket was basically a baseball throw

Bunch of cheats

[KP_fan]

Well Lanka had 9 finger grip......  on the neck of Pakistan one time..... and in the battle of nerves  slowly and steadily Pakistan got finger by finger grip of Lanka released.....

While pak raised their level after the fall of 7th wicket.........Lanka's level dropped.....those 5 over throws, 4 byes and 2 dropped catches ....first of which was "simplest that any cricketer can get in any game of cricket"....happened all in a passage of about 25 minutes and Lanka lost its grip...despondency was visibly creeping in the Lankan side...
Made a great game of ODI cricket in old fashioned low score  style.


Nos 6 and 8 side are in semis and 1 & 2 are out.......shows not the flaws in the ranking system...but the futility in believing in rankings....
at this level any team can beat another on a given day......

England will start as favorites , but this pitch  at Cardiff had something in it for all the seamers throughout the day.....a bit of a bounce off the length and late seam movement....making it hitting through the line quite a hit and miss affair....and 260 is the par and  to 300.

inspite of being the favorite it would be in Eng's interest to do what they can to flatten the pitch out if it is possible...

Else they stand a risk of an inspired 10 over spell of seam bowling plucking out 6 wickets....not a huge risk....but still possible.

Now Indians would prefer an Ind-Eng final......for losing to Eng in the final more "digestible" than to pak

[Gooseberry]

Yeah we saw in the 3rd ODI vs SA what can happen to any team if wickets start to fall. A dangerous bowling unit can turn any game no matter how rubbish your batting is.
An England India final is by far the most likely outcome but this tournament has sprung a few surprises. As it stands those are the two teams who deserve the final and who on paper are the best sides here so it would be a fitting finale. No doubt a very passionate crowd too with a large bnumber of vocal Indian fans....another plus ofr this tournament.

Rain aside its been great so far. We havent seen too many blow outs. No absurd scores, and not too many complete capitulations with the bat. Lets hope this continues and England dont try to doctor a total pancake.

[alfie]

England will be wary of Pakistan ...they are so unpredictable ; and their bowling probably presents more danger of engineering an early collapse than Sri Lanka's would have done - but on the other hand they're less likely to score a big total.
Given England's batting is the strong suit that means they're probably happier with last night 's result.

[alfie]

India - Bangladesh looks like a clear win for the former : but the Bangladesh team have (watery Aus game aside) showed plenty of spirit and hopefully won't go down easily...In any case they have earned some honour

Who'd have said a couple of weeks back that an ODI tournament in England in a generally damp early June would see Australia NZ and SA the first three teams eliminated and three subcontinental teams in the finals along with the hosts ?

[sirfredperry]

England to face Pakistan in the semis then. Will be strong favourites for that one. Hope the selectors stop being stubborn and drop Roy, can't afford any passengers for the next two games, especially ones who selfishly review without even looking at the other player let alone asking them

Yes, it's amazing how pig-headed sports' teams become when there is a clamour for a player to be dropped. Clearly, Roy's out of sorts at the moment and it's no good the management being loyal when there are others waiting to take his place.
   Reckon England would have preferred SL rather than Pakistan for the semi as, as been said above, P can be highly unpredictable.

[alfie]

BBC now saying the switch will be made for the semi...

Trouble with making the move so late is they now have to quickly make the best call on the order : do they open with YJB or move Root , Ali or Buttler up ?

My choice would be Root to open - he has more or less been doing so anyway - and Bairstow at three leaving the rest settled in the positions in which they've been doing pretty well.

Only other worry is probably Ball , who is presumably nailed on as third seamer : he has been lively and has taken some important wickets , but he does tend to go for a few runs. Unlikely to change now - and the good thing is they have six bowlers (plus Root if necessary) so can cover if anyone has an off day.

No guarantees but it would be a major disappointment if they fell at this penultimate fence. How's the weather forecast ?

[Gooseberry]

Hot and sunny. Could suit Pakistan.

[KP_fan]

So who will open the batting for Eng if they drop their specialist opener Roy?

Is Bairstow a new ball player?

Else they have to take a batsmen  set in a slot else where and move him to face the Pakistani new ball bowlers...and that makes two vulnerable slots to cover one.

Not good time for a change...given that Eng has been winning with miles to spare and almost all the other 10 are firing

[Gooseberry]

Well Root in effect has been batting as an opener for the last 10 games or so

[Mad for Chelsea]

So Roy looks set to be dropped. Didn't have a net today whereas Bairstow was first in, and Morgan's comments seem to back that up too. I suspect it will be a straight change, England won't want to interfere with the rest of their batting line-up, so Bairstow will be tasked with opening. TBH given how very little the white ball has swung this tournament I don't think it's much of a problem. The only real difference is the harder ball and field placements. Bairstow did pretty well opening for Yorkshire this year IIRC too.

As for the decision, I think it's the right one. I've been backing Roy on here, but in the last couple of games his mind has seemed scrambled, and it's reached the point where I think it's better for him to go away and get some form back on the County circuit. I have no doubts he'll come again for England, he's young enough and certainly good enough, but right now he just doesn't look like scoring runs.

I still think England were right to persist with him through the group games. It was made easier by the fact they won them (i.e. there weren't any "must-win" games), but it was worth seeing if he could recover his form. This though was the last chance to make a change (there's no way England's current set-up would make an unenforced change going into a final), and it seems England have decided to be proactive in this case.

As for the semis. Pakistan's seam bowling is dangerous, but I think England have enough batting to see off the threat. I also don't think Pakistan's batting is strong enough for the modern ODI game. If England win the toss, I expect them to bowl first, and don't see Pakistan putting enough runs on the board to present a real challenge. Pakistan's best hope is to win the toss, bowl first, and do to them what they did to SA or SL. The difference is that England's batsmen will continue going hard even if they lose a few wickets, whereas SA's and SL's went into their shells. There's the possibility that England's approach will fail disastrously (see 3rd ODI vs SA), but England are quite rightly firm favourites for this one.

Similarly I don't see much chance for BD against India. In fact, even less. BD's bowling isn't really good enough, so suspect their best chance would again be to bowl first, keep India to a manageable total, and pull of a SL style chase. India would feel confident chasing anything up to 320-330 or so IMO.

All in all, I can't see past an India-England final, which would be rather fitting, as so far those have been the two best outfits. It would also give England an opportunity to extract revenge for the previous tournament.

[wisden]

If they drop Root, then i would promote Moeen to open, not convicned about Bairstow opening

[Gooseberry]

If they drop Root they need shooting wisden

[KO-KING]

Why not put Buttler at the top?

Hales
Buttler
Root
Morgan
Bairstow
Stokes
Moeen
Rashid
Plunkett
Wood
Ball - I don't rate him much

Pakistan would need to be at their chucking best to beat England

[Gooseberry]

Why put Buttler at the top?

They seem comfortable with the formula of having specilist bats concentrating on their batting and filling the top 4 spots followed by the all rounders then the bowlers. Moeen and Buttler have other roles and dont need the additional pressure trying to play with some level of resposibility at the top.

Comments from the coach suggest Bairstow will open.

Englands top 3 with Hales Bairstow and Root is hardly the sort of combination that will get bogged down and all have the ability to adapt to conditions and early wickets.
I had expected Root to open, and hes effectively been doing that thanks to Roys poor run, but its no great shakes.

England will have their best 4 batsmen in the side. Its up to Bairstow to make his chance count.

[LondonTiger]

So Roy looks set to be dropped. Didn't have a net today whereas Bairstow was first in, and Morgan's comments seem to back that up too. I suspect it will be a straight change, England won't want to interfere with the rest of their batting line-up, so Bairstow will be tasked with opening. TBH given how very little the white ball has swung this tournament I don't think it's much of a problem. The only real difference is the harder ball and field placements. Bairstow did pretty well opening for Yorkshire this year IIRC too.

As for the decision, I think it's the right one. I've been backing Roy on here, but in the last couple of games his mind has seemed scrambled, and it's reached the point where I think it's better for him to go away and get some form back on the County circuit. I have no doubts he'll come again for England, he's young enough and certainly good enough, but right now he just doesn't look like scoring runs.

Roy should be back very soon, just needs to go and find some form. Until he went to the IPL he was doing well for us at the top of the order with pretty consistent runs. However since that point he has looked confused and muddle headed. It would be cruel to keep him in the firing line when so patently struggling for form and confidence. The only problem with making the change is they are bringing in someone who has spent most of the last month as a drinks waiter.

[KP_fan]

A great game of cricket coming up....
between mercurial Pakistan fluctuating between Jekyll and Hyde
and solid, rounded and deep England...that are 80-20 favorites......as their all round strength  would overcome Pak 4 out of 5 times in an ODI....

Pak's chance stands on any or all of following -->
 1)raising their game with the bat to put a defend-able total which in my view is 260-275 if pitch is similar to the last game....should they bat first
2)an inspired spell of seam bowling from any of their 4 seamer....3 of whom are exceptionally good....any time they bowl to crumble Eng.....and especially so if they bowl first.
3) Eng under performing due to pressure of k.o nature of the occasion or just law of averages catching up with them for a defeat that is due. 

Eng start as 80-20 favorites

[KP_fan]

Pak bowl face and ensure that they are not out of the game through a collapse int he first  half.

Amir misses due to a back spasm.....that's a dent in Pak attack...but we don't know how good / talented his replacement might be.

And they bring back their leggie instead of the seam bowling allrounder

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Pak bowl face and ensure that they are not out of the game through a collapse int he first  half.

Amir misses due to a back spasm.....that's a dent in Pak attack...but we don't know how good / talented his replacement might be.

And they bring back their leggie instead of the seam bowling allrounder

Pretty surprised they bowled first - the pitch is used, and you'd think will only deteriorate as the game goes on, bringing Rashid and Moeen into the game more.

Amir missing is a big blow - although as I mention the pitch is used, down the ground straight is very short at Cardiff, so spinners do represent a risk

[robbo277]

I think bowl first is the right choice for Pakistan. Had Pakistan put themselves in, they'd know that they would probably have to get above par to win, which would put pressure on the batting line-up. They're going in with their strongest suit first, trying to restrict England, and take that confidence into the chase.

Can't disagree with the decision to drop Roy. Feel bad for him and he is a quality player, but so is Bairstow and Roy wasn't doing the business.

[Galted]

Whatever happened to msp83?

[Gooseberry]

Roy's dip goes back a lot further than IPL. He only had a handful of decent innings since getting injured against Bangladesh last year.
Since IPL it's been more marked but it's a sustained downturn and nothing like the player who was making centuries for fun.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Bairstow gets away with the closest of umpires calls second ball - one thinks if that was Roy, and the luck he's been having, it'd been out!

[guildfordbat]

Agree with Hussain. ''Surprised they (Pakistan) didn't get the onfield decision ... it was rattling into off stump.'' Bairstow and England getting the break, Pakistan losing their review 2 balls in.

[KP_fan]

they at least did not deserve to lose the review

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Now Hales has his out overturned on review - all coming up England early

Chris Woakes on TMS says he will miss the start of the South Africa test series at least. Doesn't sound promising

[guildfordbat]

I can only quote Hussain again as Hales successfully overturns his lbw 'dismissal'. ''Well, it's going England's way this morning, isn't it?''.

[Gooseberry]

24 off the first 4 and Pakistan's review gone.
About as good a start as they'd hope for.

[Gooseberry]

Wonder how much with the Jake's one it's the umpires feeling they owed Pakistan one and not wanting to miss an out.
Either way their will be endless howling about DRS from some quarters

[alfie]

Bairstow gets away with the closest of umpires calls second ball - one thinks if that was Roy, and the luck he's been having, it'd been out!

True. When you are way out of form you never get the marginal decisions...

To be honest I always thought it would be umpires call - though it looked closer in slow motion !

The second review was a very good call by the England bats : looked outside leg. That is why you consult your partner .

Not that it has done Hales too much good as he's gone now...

[robbo277]

Now Hales has his out overturned on review - all coming up England early

Chris Woakes on TMS says he will miss the start of the South Africa test series at least. Doesn't sound promising

Is Anderson going to be fit?

We have Broad and Wood bowling at the moment and they could quite happily take the new ball. Stokes will be in as the 4th seamer, but potentially without Woakes or Anderson we'll have to look elsewhere. The options are likely to be Ball or Finn, but neither fill me with as much confidence as Woakes, let alone Anderson.

[alfie]

they at least did not deserve to lose the review

Disagree.  One review - you don't use it (especially first over) on anything remotely "close".   It is there to correct a stone cold mistake.

Go fishing for lbw - you deserve the consequences.

You could argue they were unlucky not to get the onfield call - but that's another issue.

[KP_fan]

they at least did not deserve to lose the review

Disagree.  One review - you don't use it (especially first over) on anything remotely "close".   It is there to correct a stone cold mistake.

Go fishing for lbw - you deserve the consequences.

You could argue they were unlucky not to get the onfield call - but that's another issue.

ICC agrees.....in very near future ( i think for the next ODI series after CT).....reviews will not be lost for umpire's call

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

270-300 is defendable on this pitch definitely - keeping low already, and some grip for spin. Should suit England's cross seam bowlers and spin

[alfie]

Bowling has been good apart from Junaid pitching too short second over...

Chance ! Would have been a great catch ... The new boy Raees looks another in the Pakistan tradition of lively young seamers.

52/1 off the first ten OK in the circumstances

[alfie]

they at least did not deserve to lose the review

Disagree.  One review - you don't use it (especially first over) on anything remotely "close".   It is there to correct a stone cold mistake.

Go fishing for lbw - you deserve the consequences.

You could argue they were unlucky not to get the onfield call - but that's another issue.

ICC agrees.....in very near future ( i think for the next ODI series after CT).....reviews will not be lost for umpire's call

Is that for Tests too ? Going to lead to a lot more speculative reviews and more time wasting... Bad idea I think.

But the technocrats rule , I fear.

[robbo277]

they at least did not deserve to lose the review

Disagree.  One review - you don't use it (especially first over) on anything remotely "close".   It is there to correct a stone cold mistake.

Go fishing for lbw - you deserve the consequences.

You could argue they were unlucky not to get the onfield call - but that's another issue.

ICC agrees.....in very near future ( i think for the next ODI series after CT).....reviews will not be lost for umpire's call

DRS has changed from it's inception. Initially it was to eradicate the howler, and in which case alfie is right, don't gamble with it if you don't want to lose it.

Team's have started to gamble with it more though, and now the ICC are reacting to that by making it fairer to the team that lost its gamble. A review has now become a spectacle, the crowd and fans at home can all watch it in real time and make their own decisions - and the ICC are now encouraging reviews with their actions.

[robbo277]

77-1 is a decent place to be after 15 overs. Sounds like Bairstow's on his 4th life if you count the tight LBW and the two drops and Root looking less than comfortable against the left-armers.

If these two can bat on and stay together for the next 15 overs though, we'd be set for a big one.

[robbo277]

77-1 is a decent place to be after 15 overs. Sounds like Bairstow's on his 4th life if you count the tight LBW and the two drops and Root looking less than comfortable against the left-armers.

If these two can bat on and stay together for the next 15 overs though, we'd be set for a big one.

9 balls later and Bairstow is gone. Form man Eoin Morgan coming to the crease now though!

[Gooseberry]

Wicket came the old fashioned way ...tie up both ends and get the frutsration wicket.

Momentum is frmly with Pakistan after a number of poor overs for England. Overall its still evenly balanced though. Really important that Morgan and Root put together a good stand here otherwise its panic time

[KP_fan]

260-270 is Par

Pak has bowled well....and inspite of having the luck with dropped catches and DRS...Eng still 2 down and less than 5RPO

Pitch is gripping for spinners and I won't be surprised if Junaid and Hassan get reverse

Pak can call upon Shoiab and Hafeez also giving them plenty of spin options

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

That was a poor dismissal from Bairstow - really 43 off 57 isn't a great innings, he's neither anchored the innings for 30/40 overs or gone off on a flyer

[eirebilly]

England really under pressure here. I hate to say this but I feel a collapse is immanent...

[eirebilly]

Looking at the top ODI run scorers now, goes to show just how good Ian Bell was.

[alfie]

Think Bairstow got a bit too impatient there. Run rate was OK ; and as KP_f suggests this doesn't look like a 300 pitch.

Suppose England are set to stick to their mantra of continuing to play their shots . Maybe sometimes they might be better advised to dial it back a bit ; but let's see how it finishes up.

Plan is still on course - Root anchors the innings while a succession of Gingers blaze away at the other end

[eirebilly]

I am feeling a bit trebell'ish today, very pessimistic of England's chances.

[alfie]

England really under pressure here. I hate to say this but I feel a collapse is immanent...

Some good bowling pinning them down a bit...certainly Morgan is feeling his way so far. But I'm not too alarmed yet : plenty of hitters to come and provided they don't panic I reckon they can still turn this into a defendable score.

We knew Pakistan had a handy bowling attack so I'm not surprised they aren't making this easy for England.

[KO-KING]

Chucking away

Junaid Khan
Hassan Ali
Imad Wasim
Hafeez

Fantastic

[robbo277]

England need to find the balance between building a platform for Stokes, Buttler et al to tee off and leaving them with too much to do.

From an decebt 77-1 off 15, their last 8 overs have gone 31-1. It's a long stretch of time to be going that slowly.

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