Highlanders v British & Irish Lions, June 13

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Highlanders v British & Irish Lions
13 June 2017
KO: 19:35 NZST (8.35am BST)
Forsyth Barr Stadium, Dunedin

Live on Sky Sports, Sky Sports HD and SkyGo

Referee: Angus Gardner (Australia)
Touch judges: [tbc]
TMO: [tbc]

A. FORM:

18 June 2005: Otago 19 - 30 British & Irish Lions

5 June 1993: Otago 37 - 24 British & Irish Lions

8 June 1977: Otago 17 - 12 British & Irish Lions

B. TEAMS:

Highlanders 
01. Daniel Lienert-Brown
02. Liam Coltman
03. Siate Tokolahi
04. Alex Ainley
05. Jackson Hemopo
06. Gareth Evans
07. Dillon Hunt
08. Luke Whitelock (C)

09. Kayne Hammington
10. Lima Sopoaga
11. Tevita Li
12. Teihorangi Walden
13. Malakai Fekitoa
14. Waisake Naholo
15. Richard Buckman

16. Greg Pleasants-Tate
17. Aki Seiuli
18. Siosuia Halanukonuka
19. Josh Dickson
20. Jimmy Lentjes
21. Josh Renton
22. Marty Banks
23. Patrick Osborne

British & Irish Lions
15 Jared Payne – Ulster, Ireland, #830
14 Jack Nowell – Exeter Chiefs, England, #828
13 Jonathan Joseph – Bath Rugby, England, #809
12 Robbie Henshaw – Leinster, Ireland, #824
11 Tommy Seymour – Glasgow Warriors, Scotland, #813
10 Dan Biggar – Ospreys, Wales, #821
9 Rhys Webb – Ospreys, Wales, #820

1 Joe Marler – Harlequins, England, #811
2 Rory Best – Ulster, Ireland, #793
3 Kyle Sinckler – Harlequins, England, #814
4 Courtney Lawes – Northampton Saints, England, #826
5 Iain Henderson – Ulster, Ireland, #808
6 James Haskell – Wasps, England, #823
7 Sam Warburton (capt) – Cardiff Blues, Wales, #800
8 CJ Stander – Munster, Ireland, #831

16 Ken Owens – Scarlets, Wales, #829
17 Jack McGrath – Leinster, Ireland, #827
18 Dan Cole – Leicester Tigers, England, #794
19 Alun Wyn Jones – Ospreys, Wales, #761
20 Justin Tipuric – Ospreys, Wales, #786
21 Greig Laidlaw – Gloucester Rugby, Scotland, #810
22 Owen Farrell – Saracens, England, #780
23 Elliot Daly – Wasps, England, #822

Warbs is fit!

alfie wrote:Good game pity about the result...scrum replacements didn't fire...

But if Farrell kicks that penalty as he would nine out of ten its a win.

Thought the long range shot was a bit of a gamble.

Sinkler put his hand up , no ?  And I loved that piece of flair from Seymour

Some good some bad.  At least they're getting across the line...

Im not sure how narrowly winning by a late penalty would be that much better tbh. Fact is they still struggled to live with a fairly average NZ club side.
I do agree there were some positives ....espeically individual backs showing their flair, but the general attacking play was still pretty ineffective. Senior players like Cole Farrell and Warburton are letting themselves down.

50% kick success is pretty awful.

If they arent beating these sides comfortably and looking good in doing it then we are a long way from a competitive test team.

This is further evidence that the British & Irish Lions are nowhere near good enough to beat the All Blacks, IMO. I believe they played some good, offloading rugby around the 65th minute mark and Jonathan Joseph took his try well but on the whole they didn't show any signs that they're capable of beating the All Blacks. I think very, very strongly now that it's going to be 3-0 to the All Blacks.

international198 wrote: I think very, very strongly now that it's going to be 3-0 to the All Blacks.

Which is still better than 60-0

3 FHs seems a mistake, these guys are going to be dead.

international198 wrote:This is further evidence that the British & Irish Lions are nowhere near good enough to beat the All Blacks, IMO. I believe they played some good, offloading rugby around the 65th minute mark and Jonathan Joseph took his try well but on the whole they didn't show any signs that they're capable of beating the All Blacks. I think very, very strongly now that it's going to be 3-0 to the All Blacks.

What's interesting is so far the Lions scrums are getting beaten, Saturday and Wednesday sides. That was supposed to be an area of strength for the Lions, but again they got shunted back, here by a franchise side with no AB squad players, against seasoned test players.

Going into the tests add the lineout of Retallick, Whitelock and Read, Lions are not looking good at set piece time.

We were well top last Saturday. Not seen today's match to.comment.

Well on top?

You mean in the scrums. Nup, the Lions weren't. The wacky French referee made it seem as though they were.

ebop wrote:Well on top?

You mean in the scrums. Nup, the Lions weren't. The wacky French referee made it seem as though they were.

That wacky referee who insists on props not boring in illegally

That crazy frog

Yes the scrums. Applying the laws isn't wacky.

Scottrf wrote:3 FHs seems a mistake, these guys are going to be dead.

Is the problem partly because they're not leaving the FH on long enough in the game? I know we want to give everyone a run out, but 2 FHs are playing a substantial amount in each game so it's inevitable that they'll all be playing 2 games a week for a few weeks.

7.5, you should watch tonight's game if you have the chance. It was a good game. The Lions scrum was underwhelming again and I'll never take anyone seriously again if they say the ABs scrum is weak. Even our under strength Super Rugby teams are doing a number on the Lions.

Griff wrote:

Scottrf wrote:3 FHs seems a mistake, these guys are going to be dead.

Is the problem partly because they're not leaving the FH on long enough in the game?  I know we want to give everyone a run out, but 2 FHs are playing a substantial amount in each game so it's inevitable that they'll all be playing 2 games a week for a few weeks.

What difference would that make exactly?
Theres still the same amount of tyotal on pitch time required by fly halves.

Previous tours theyve ended up relying on fill in guys like Flutey etc for midweeks, its nothing new.

3 players sharing an equal split of the duties means 2/3 of a game a week. Thats hardly excesive. Once the tests start the one who isnt in the matchday squad will play the full 80 (pending injury) in the midweek, depending on how much whoever the test bench has actually played.

Its not really that big a deal.

Sure one of them is bound to get injured at some point (weve alread seen Sexton take a knock) but that can be dealt with by call ups. It was already a pretty huge squad.

It doesn't matter who the British & Irish Lions call up, IMO. I believe no player in Britain & Ireland is good enough to beat the All Blacks away from home in New Zealand.

England in Twickenham would maybe beat the All Blacks if they had all their best players available, IMO, but even England would lose in New Zealand against New Zealand, IMO.

I think Wales and Scotland have no chance of beating New Zealand at home or away.

I believe Ireland have a very, very small chance at home or at a neutral venue but not away from home in New Zealand.

I will ebop. Franks it has to be said lived up to pooly s prediction. I can see where you're coming from though. Seems a similar place to the nz herald which had a strange view on the scrums. And to be fair gatland has picked guys like.Sinckler and Vunipola who are not great in the scrum but offer more in the loose ala nz so when talking of those guys it's off to.focus on their scrum as it is to focus on franks.

It shows that the scrum aint just 8 burly guys pushing a lot. The scrum needs time and coaching to gel just as the whole team does, time that the Lions don't have the luxury of. I wonder how a wholly English or Irish or Welsh scrum... would do here.

Also shows that you ask two referees to judge a scrum, they will give you two difference answers.

Barney McGrew did it wrote:It shows that the scrum aint just 8 burly guys pushing a lot. The scrum needs time and coaching to gel just as the whole team does, time that the Lions don't have the luxury of. I wonder how a wholly English or Irish or Welsh scrum... would do here.

It also involves experience of and adapting to how the ref chooses to interpret the laws. SH refs allow things to go on that NH refs will penalise. If experienced front rowers failed to cope with a ref allowing pre-engagement, early driving and coming in at an angle then that is poor. First test is Peyper (I think) so we have to be ready for SH style scrums.

Gooseberry wrote:

Griff wrote:

Scottrf wrote:3 FHs seems a mistake, these guys are going to be dead.

Is the problem partly because they're not leaving the FH on long enough in the game?  I know we want to give everyone a run out, but 2 FHs are playing a substantial amount in each game so it's inevitable that they'll all be playing 2 games a week for a few weeks.

What difference would that make exactly?
Theres still the same amount of tyotal on pitch time required by fly halves.

Previous tours theyve ended up relying on fill in guys like Flutey etc for midweeks, its nothing new.

3 players sharing an equal split of the duties means 2/3 of a game a week. Thats hardly excesive. Once the tests start the one who isnt in the matchday squad will play the full 80 (pending injury) in the midweek, depending on how much whoever the test bench has actually played.

Its not really that big a deal.

Sure one of them is bound to get injured at some point (weve alread seen Sexton take a knock) but that can be dealt with by call ups. It was already a pretty huge squad.

Same time on the pitch, but bigger rest/recovery in between.  If one of them played the whole game then, potentially, they'd have a week off 'til the next start.  I'm just answering the original point really.  Not sure I think it's too much though.

The problem with a call up so far from home is the jet lag factor, if you believe that is factor (which I do).  It could take maybe 5 days to make the call, get the flight, get the player 'acclimatized', etc. before they are ready to play in a game.

Who can cover from within the squad?  Laidlaw?

I think referees are just confused when it comes to the scrum and often make the wrong decisions because they are so confused.

Griff wrote:

Gooseberry wrote:

Griff wrote:

Scottrf wrote:3 FHs seems a mistake, these guys are going to be dead.

Is the problem partly because they're not leaving the FH on long enough in the game?  I know we want to give everyone a run out, but 2 FHs are playing a substantial amount in each game so it's inevitable that they'll all be playing 2 games a week for a few weeks.

What difference would that make exactly?
Theres still the same amount of tyotal on pitch time required by fly halves.

Previous tours theyve ended up relying on fill in guys like Flutey etc for midweeks, its nothing new.

3 players sharing an equal split of the duties means 2/3 of a game a week. Thats hardly excesive. Once the tests start the one who isnt in the matchday squad will play the full 80 (pending injury) in the midweek, depending on how much whoever the test bench has actually played.

Its not really that big a deal.

Sure one of them is bound to get injured at some point (weve alread seen Sexton take a knock) but that can be dealt with by call ups. It was already a pretty huge squad.

Same time on the pitch, but bigger rest/recovery in between.  If one of them played the whole game then, potentially, they'd have a week off 'til the next start.  I'm just answering the original point really.  Not sure I think it's too much though.

The problem with a call up so far from home is the jet lag factor, if you believe that is factor (which I do).  It could take maybe 5 days to make the call, get the flight, get the player 'acclimatized', etc. before they are ready to play in a game.

Who can cover from within the squad?  Laidlaw?

Finn Russell is in Australia. He's a more sensible option than ford in terms of Jet Lag and acclimatization...

Speaking of referees. Discipline should be a bit of a concern for Gatland. And the Highlanders negated the borderline offside Lions rush defence with little grubber kicks today.

ebop wrote:Speaking of referees. Discipline should be a bit of a concern for Gatland. And the Highlanders negated the borderline offside Lions rush defence with little grubber kicks today.

AKA onside? Nasty NH teams actually defending

Nah not nasty, just borderline offside. And also offside sometimes.

My ratings for today, for what it is worth.

15 : Jared Payne - 4/10 - Made a very good defensive tackle when the Lions were under pressure but had a very poor game all round I feel. Did not take his chance to claim the 15 spot for the tests.

14 : Jack Nowell - 5/10 - Industrious as always but not the attacking threat that I had hoped he would be. Not a bad day but not good either.

13 : Jonathan Joseph - 7/10 - Took his try well and was a real threat in attack. His defence remains questionable.

12 : Robbie Henshaw - 5/10 - Solid in defence but never really attacked the line as well as he can do.

11 : Tommy Seymour - 6/10 - Took his try very well but is horribly found out in defence. Not sure he put his hand up high enough for test selection.

10 : Dan Biggar - 6/10 - Actually thought he had a decent game but his theatrics are wearing very thin. Just play the game dammit.

09 : Rhys Webb - 8/10 - The standout player for the Lions until he went off (injured?). Will push Murray for test selection but certainly on the bench.

01 : Joe Marler - 6/10 - Solid in the scrum but was largely unseen.

02 : Rory Best - 7/10 - felt he had a very good game and was certainly missed when he went off.

03 : Kyle Sinckler - 7/10 - Another impressive display from him, he is certainly putting his name forward for test selection. A very good break and unfortunate that Payne could not take his pass.

04 : Courtney Lawes - 7/10 - Was very good for the short time he was on. Horrible knock and I hope he is ok.

05 : Iain Henderson - 7/10 - Thought he showed up well today, lots of strength in hitting the rucks.

06 : James Haskell - 3/10 - Thought he was poor. He hits everything which looks good for the stats but his defensive awareness is very poor.

07 : Sam Warburton - 6/10 - Very quiet first half but had a very good second half for the time he was on.

08 : CJ Stander - 7/10 - Mixed bag for me but he did have a decent game, won a lot of turnovers. Still miles behind Faletau for a test start.

Replacements :

16 : Ken Owens -6/10 - Felt he was let down somewhat by his props but was solid.

17 : Jack McGrath - 5/10 - Poor in the scrum but OK in the open.

18 : Dan Cole - 2/10 - Poor in the scrum and open play. Very disappointed with him today as expected much more.

19 : Alun Wyn Jones - 4/10 - thought he was very average today, a step down on his last performance. Really needs to improve to start the tests.

20 : Justin Tipuric - 5/10 - Did not see that much of him to be fair, feel he is a very good option in the SH. Needs more game time.

21 : Greig Laidlaw - 5/10 - Solid and dependable, nothing more really.

22 : Owen Farrell - 4/10 - Missed a kick at goal that he would normally kick and looked to be rushing things in attack.

23 : Elliot Daly - 7/10 - Thought he was very good when he came on, looked much more assured at 15 than Payne did and added that extra attacking threat from the counter.

So who played their reputation up and who down (not seen the match yet)

I think the British & Irish Lions were really lucky to get that penalty at the end that Elliot Daly nearly converted. I thought advantage was over but the referee called it otherwise.

Didn't see the game but just read this by Gregor Paul:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/rugby/news/article.cfm?c_id=80&objectid=11875587

So our two most substantial problems were (a) discipline and (b) tight five?

It does make you wonder whether for a schedule like this the tourists should have 3 x full match day 23s.

R!skysports wrote:So who played their reputation up and who down (not seen the match yet)

Naholo finished his try well even though it should have been disallowed, IMO.

Barney McGrew did it wrote:It shows that the scrum aint just 8 burly guys pushing a lot. The scrum needs time and coaching to gel just as the whole team does, time that the Lions don't have the luxury of. I wonder how a wholly English or Irish or Welsh scrum... would do here.

Gatland has to shoulder a lot of the blame for this, he has the option of going for an all Irish or English front row but seems to be messing about with it too much.

George Carlin wrote:Didn't see the game but just read this by Gregor Paul:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/rugby/news/article.cfm?c_id=80&objectid=11875587

So our two most substantial problems were (a) discipline and (b) tight five?

It does make you wonder whether for a schedule like this the tourists should have 3 x full match day 23s.

The writing in that article is appalling.

Banks looked good as well for the Highlanders, IMO.

Martyn Williams said Biggar MOTM!

George Carlin wrote:Didn't see the game but just read this by Gregor Paul:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/rugby/news/article.cfm?c_id=80&objectid=11875587

So our two most substantial problems were (a) discipline and (b) tight five?

It does make you wonder whether for a schedule like this the tourists should have 3 x full match day 23s.

69 players on tour!!!!!!

RDW_Scotland wrote:Martyn Williams said Biggar MOTM!

The Welsh counterpart to Stuart Barnes as a pundit ...

RDW_Scotland wrote:Martyn Williams said Biggar MOTM!

For me it was Webb for the Lions.

[quote="R!skysports"]So who played their reputation up and who down (not seen the match yet)

[/quote]

All of the front row starters, Lawes played well but could well be out for a few weeks after the KO.

Back row started to show up second half, apart from Haskell who just can't get into his form that he showed last summer against Australia.

Webb secured a bench spot (not sure how Laidlow is there for style we are wanting to play, Care would have been a better option).
Biggar looked good, whilst thought Henshaw had another bad showing as did Payne. Joseph's defence is strangely out of sorts so far this tour.

Nowell certainly played himself out of test contention too.

Daly could be a good bench option for us.

Backline looking like?

9. Murray
10. Farrell
11. Williams
12. Teo'o
13. Davies (if fit)
14. North
15. Watson

- bench Webb, Sexton, Daly.

SamTheQuin wrote:

R!skysports wrote:So who played their reputation up and who down (not seen the match yet)

All of the front row starters, Lawes played well but could well be out for a few weeks after the KO.

Back row started to show up second half, apart from Haskell who just can't get into his form that he showed last summer against Australia.

Webb secured a bench spot (not sure how Laidlow is there for style we are wanting to play, Care would have been a better option).
Biggar looked good, whilst thought Henshaw had another bad showing as did Payne. Joseph's defence is strangely out of sorts so far this tour.

Nowell certainly played himself out of test contention too.

Daly could be a good bench option for us.

Backline looking like?

9. Murray
10. Farrell
11. Williams
12. Teo'o
13. Davies (if fit)
14. North
15. Watson

- bench Webb, Sexton, Daly.

No point in picking North if you aren't going to give him the ball.
Farrell needs to get to grips with kicking duties. 2 easy kicks missed in 2 games.
Williams hasn't really played very well yet either.

The backs have their problems.

Williams has been the worst of the wingers so far not, that any of them are performing that well and if you're picking Davies at 13 we may as well pack up now and go home.

Good game today. Think the Lions are getting stronger but still work to do to compete with the ABs.

I wouldn't mind the following team to start against New Zealand:

1. Vunipola
2. George
3. Sinckler
4. Itoje
5. Kruis
6. Haskell
7. O'Brien
8. Faletau
9. Murray
10. Farrell
11. North
12. Te'o
13. Joseph
14. Daly
15. Halfpenny

RDW_Scotland wrote:Farrell will be very disappointed to have missed that kick - he didn't lose us the game but he would have nailed that 99 times out of 100 for Sarries or England.

It is a big worry that our players are already coming up short in the high pressure situations.

I don't read much into this miss other than he wasn't mentally there, so many days after the high of Canterbury.

Those seeing in hindsight should realise he is arguably the best place kicker in world rugby and so should have kicked it easily.

ebop wrote:Nah not nasty, just borderline offside. And also offside sometimes.

So a completely non comment then, and on that basis I'm sure we'll see it as a headline in the kiwi press tomorrow.

Oh and by the way cyclops they're underneath the sheep.

Player ratings out of the NZ media below - always amusing to see the differences
Averages - NZ Herald: Highlanders 6.8, Lions 6.3
Stuff.co.nz: Highlanders 6.3, Lions 6.1

Player	Rating - NZ Herald	Rating - Fairfax (Stuff)
Jared Payne	5	6
Jack Nowell	6	6
Jonathan Joseph	8	7
Robbie Henshaw	6	6
Tommy Seymour	7	6
Dan Biggar	7	7
Rhys Webb	7	7
CJ Stander	5	8
Sam Warburton	7	7
James Haskell	5	6
Iain Henderson	5	8
Courtney Lawes	4	7
Kyle Sinckler	7	7
Rory Best	7	7
Joe Marler	7	6
Ken Owens	N/A	5
Jack McGrath	N/A	6
Dan Cole	5	4
Alun Wyn Jones	7	3
Justin Tipuric	N/A	N/A
Greig Laidlaw	7	5
Owen Farrell	N/A	5
Elliot Daly	7	5
Richard Buckman	6	7
Waisake Naholo	9	8
Malakai Fekitoa	7	7
Teihorangi Walden	7	5
Tevita Li	7	6
Lima Sopoaga	6	3
Kayne Hammington	7	6
Luke Whitelock	8	8
Dillon Hunt	7	5
Gareth Evans	7	8
Jackson Hemopo	6	7
Alex Ainley	6	6
Siate Tokolahi	6	6
Liam Coltman	7	6
Daniel Lienert-Brown	6	7
Greg Pleasents-Tate	7	6
Aki Seiuli	7	6
Siolua Halanukonuka	7	7
Josh Dickson	7	7
James Lentjes	7	5
Josh Renton	N/A	N/A
Marty Banks	7	7
Patrick Osborne	6	5

RDW_Scotland wrote:Farrell will be very disappointed to have missed that kick - he didn't lose us the game but he would have nailed that 99 times out of 100 for Sarries or England.

It is a big worry that our players are already coming up short in the high pressure situations.

Yes, I didn't see the closing minutes (when we were already behind) but Farrell missing his kick, and AWJ giving away the penalty which led to the Highlanders maul try helped lose that match. That's two potential starters responsible for key errors.

RDW_Scotland wrote:Farrell will be very disappointed to have missed that kick - he didn't lose us the game but he would have nailed that 99 times out of 100 for Sarries or England.

Though I doubt he would be coming off the bench in a hurry to take the kick too often.

Anyone seen an update on injured players? Lawes' failed HIA will be an issue, and I understand both Webb and Biggar limped off.

LondonTiger wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:Farrell will be very disappointed to have missed that kick - he didn't lose us the game but he would have nailed that 99 times out of 100 for Sarries or England.

Though I doubt he would be coming off the bench in a hurry to take the kick too often.

Anyone seen an update on injured players? Lawes' failed HIA will be an issue, and I understand both Webb and Biggar limped off.

If they are serious injuries I'd bring in Russel and Price or Ford and Care.

I certainly wouldn't try mixing and matching at this late stage.

Lawes looked sparked out big time, but players all react differently to the HIA, might not show any side effects and be ready for next weekend. He's been the best lock on tour IMO. Although wouldn't be too upset if Launchbury got called up if he did need to be replaced, he was superb against Argentina at the weekend.

Rather Payne than Hogg but with Farrell kicking like a donkey this all means Halfpenny's position at 15 is assured.

And Henshaw is literally an attack killer, dies with the ball and insists on going straight into contact when all he needs to do is pass

Lawes would be a real loss, has been class and the standout physical forward