NEW ZEALAND v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS, 24 June

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NEW ZEALAND v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS  
24 June 2017
KO: 19:35 NZST (8.35am BST)
Eden Park, Auckland

Live on [Sky Sports HD]

Referee: Jaco Peyper (South Africa)
ARs: [tbc]
TMO: [tbc]

A. Head to Head

38 Played 38
29 Won 6
3 Drawn 3
6 Lost 29
634 Points 345

B. Recent Form

9 July 2005
Eden Park, Auckland
38 – 19 to New Zealand

2 July 2005
Westpac Stadium, Wellington
48 – 18 to New Zealand

25 June 2005
Lancaster Park, Christchurch
21 – 3 to New Zealand

3 July 1993
Eden Park, Auckland
30 – 13 to New Zealand

26 June 1993
Athletic Park, Wellington
7 – 20 to British & Irish Lions

12 June 1993
Lancaster Park, Christchurch
20 – 18 to New Zealand

16 July 1983
Eden Park, Auckland
38 – 6 to New Zealand

2 July 1983
Carisbrook, Dunedin
15 – 8 to New Zealand

18 June 1983
Athletic Park (Wellington), Wellington
9 – 0 to New Zealand

4 June 1983
Lancaster Park, Christchurch
16 – 12 to New Zealand

C. TEAMS:

NEW ZEALAND

01. Joe Moody (25)
02. Codie Taylor (16)
03. Owen Franks (91)
04. Brodie Retallick (61)
05. Samuel Whitelock (85)
06. Jerome Kaino (78)
07. Sam Cane (41)
08. Kieran Read (97)

09. Aaron Smith (59)
10. Beauden Barrett (50)
11. Rieko Ioane (2)
12. Sonny Bill Williams (34)
13. Ryan Crotty (26)
14. Israel Dagg (62)
15. Ben Smith (61)

16. Nathan Harris (5)
17. Wyatt Crockett (59)
18. Charlie Faumuina (47)
19. Scott Barrett (5)
20. Ardie Savea (13)
21. TJ Perenara (30)
22. Aaron Cruden (47) / Lima Sopoaga (7)
23. Anton Lienert-Brown (10)

BRITISH & IRISH LIONS  

15. Liam Williams – Scarlets, Wales, #833
14. Anthony Watson – Bath Rugby, England, #816
13. Jonathan Davies – Scarlets, Wales, #778
12. Ben Te’o – Worcester Warriors, England, #815
11. Elliot Daly – Wasps, England, #822
10. Owen Farrell – Saracens, England, #780
09. Conor Murray – Munster, Ireland, #790

01. Mako Vunipola – Saracens, England, #787
02. Jamie George – Saracens, England, #819
03. Tadhg Furlong – Leinster, Ireland, #818
04. Alun Wyn Jones – Ospreys, Wales, #761
05. George Kruis – Saracens, England, #817
06. Peter O’Mahony (capt) – Munster, Ireland, #832
07. Sean O’Brien – Leinster, Ireland, #796
08. Taulupe Faletau – Bath Rugby, Wales, #779

16. Ken Owens – Scarlets, Wales, #829
17. Jack McGrath – Leinster, Ireland, #827
18. Kyle Sinckler – Harlequins, England, #814
19. Maro Itoje – Saracens, England, #825
20. Sam Warburton – Cardiff Blues, Wales, #800
21. Rhys Webb – Ospreys, Wales, #820
22. Johnny Sexton – Leinster, Ireland, #791
23. Leigh Halfpenny – Toulon, Wales, #775

geoff999rugby wrote:Best darts have been no worse than Owens on this tour and he offers a bit more in the scrum and a hell of a lot more at the breakdown,

Also don't blame the backrow for the Test defeat - they will always struggle when the front 5 come up short and every single player in the starting front 5 came up short and in the second row by a country mile

I missed the Chiefs game so not sure how he did there, saw reports of two bad lineouts from him but then again, everyone was blaming him for the final lineout from the Blues when it was Marler and mostly Sincklair who were at fault with the lift

One scrum in particular yesterday, the Canes started to drive the Lions back and not exactly legally Best seemed to steady it by himself

Kruis in open play wasn't great on Saturday but I think he and POM were good on the ABs lineout, the irony being they will likely be dropped for this weekend

Faletau though has escaped criticism due to the hype around POM

I haven't really seen any criticism of POM to be honest. In fact, I've seen very little criticism of any individuals on these match threads. Apart from you know who.

TightHEAD wrote:Which Kiwi numpty attacked John Spencer (Lions tour Manager) on Sunday?

I heard there was a push and a shove in a restaurant before the drunk Kiwi fell the wrong side and slowed it down, he also went unpunished by the authorities.

Typical Kiwi attitude.

I've heard suggestions it was actually a Saffa. Prize pranny whoever he was.

Spencer was also unpunished by the authorities (apparently both engaged in shoving before the drunk's girlfriend dragged him out on his ear)

POM seems Tom Wood-esque to me. Offers a lot at lineout time but does he offer enough in the breakdown?

Would Lawes-Itoje shore up the lineout enough?

I certainly think that 2nd row combo would offer more.

NZ were laughing when Itoje didn't start the 1st test.

Wow. Best can deal with scrums by himself. Come on he's a great player but there is some over egging going on here!

Best can't throw in under pressure.

beshocked wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:Best darts have been no worse than Owens on this tour and he offers a bit more in the scrum and a hell of a lot more at the breakdown,

Also don't blame the backrow for the Test defeat - they will always struggle when the front 5 come up short and every single player in the starting front 5 came up short and in the second row by a country mile

First time I think I've heard someone blaming the front five for the shoddy work done at the breakdown by the backrow.

Now of course the breakdown isn't solely down to 1 player but the backrow is key.

At the lineout, the Lions competed really well and probably had the upperhand so not everything at set piece went against the Lions.

Stander needs to come into the 23.

I'd be okay with Lawes-Itoje starting in the 2nd row.


Best would be fine as an impact off the bench.

Both Kruis and AWJ would be out with Henderson on the bench.


I think the biggest question is -how to fix backrow balance.

Stander is done for this season, he's run himself into the ground and is injured and is not the destructive force he was

Lawes and Itoje is not a viable partnership, it's why he and Itoje swapped during the 6Ns

Best is not an impact player unless you are closing out a game, its unlikely we will be doing that

Geoff is right, the back row didn't get the support and in saying that SOB didn't get the support, POM and Faletau were below power

For me Faletau was the right pick for last week on form but Warburton needs to come in with SOB at 8 and Best at hooker. With Itoje starting and Henderson on the bench I think it fixes the breakdown where we were too timid with little competition for the ball

No 7&1/2 wrote:Wow. Best can deal with scrums by himself. Come on he's a great player but there is some over egging going on here!

I said he seemed to steady it and not exactly legally

TightHEAD wrote:Best can't throw in under pressure.

Yet he regularly does

marty2086 wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:Best can't throw in under pressure.

Yet he regularly does

Not in a Lions jersey he doesn't .

Yes steady it by himself. Come off it marty.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yes steady it by himself. Come off it marty.

Well argued there

There is no argument to be had marty no one player steadies a scrum by himself.

TightHEAD wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:Best can't throw in under pressure.

Yet he regularly does

Not in a Lions jersey he doesn't .

Yet he did yesterday, he did against the Blues only to not have a jumper there

beshocked wrote:POM seems Tom Wood-esque to me. Offers a lot at lineout time but does he offer enough in the breakdown?

Yes, in the past POM has been a very good player at the breakdown and was also a good carrying option. Sometimes he's goes missing though, as was the case to an extent in this test match. It was also the case in the Pro12 final where Munster were outdone at the breakdown.

marty2086 wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yes steady it by himself. Come off it marty.

Well argued there

You get banned for arguing on here.

TightHEAD wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:Best can't throw in under pressure.

Yet he regularly does

Not in a Lions jersey he doesn't .

Coming off the bench he's struggled, but I can't remember him being poor at lineout throwing all tour. You either start with Best or don't have him in the 23.

marty2086 wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:Best can't throw in under pressure.

Yet he regularly does

Not in a Lions jersey he doesn't .

Yet he did yesterday, he did against the Blues only to not have a jumper there

Perhaps he should be a man and remove his scrum cap so he can hear the calls.

No 7&1/2 wrote:There is no argument to be had marty no one player steadies a scrum by himself.

If you illegally stand up it helps

marty2086 wrote:

Faletau though has escaped criticism due to the hype around POM

Think it was only me and one other who had pointed out POM the other day. POM isn't Welsh so has escaped much criticism. I'd still have him in Saturday's starting lineup btw.

marty2086 wrote:

beshocked wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:Best darts have been no worse than Owens on this tour and he offers a bit more in the scrum and a hell of a lot more at the breakdown,

Also don't blame the backrow for the Test defeat - they will always struggle when the front 5 come up short and every single player in the starting front 5 came up short and in the second row by a country mile

First time I think I've heard someone blaming the front five for the shoddy work done at the breakdown by the backrow.

Now of course the breakdown isn't solely down to 1 player but the backrow is key.

At the lineout, the Lions competed really well and probably had the upperhand so not everything at set piece went against the Lions.

Stander needs to come into the 23.

I'd be okay with Lawes-Itoje starting in the 2nd row.


Best would be fine as an impact off the bench.

Both Kruis and AWJ would be out with Henderson on the bench.


I think the biggest question is -how to fix backrow balance.

Stander is done for this season, he's run himself into the ground and is injured and is not the destructive force he was

Lawes and Itoje is not a viable partnership, it's why he and Itoje swapped during the 6Ns

Best is not an impact player unless you are closing out a game, its unlikely we will be doing that

Geoff is right, the back row didn't get the support and in saying that SOB didn't get the support, POM and Faletau were below power

For me Faletau was the right pick for last week on form but Warburton needs to come in with SOB at 8 and Best at hooker. With Itoje starting and Henderson on the bench I think it fixes the breakdown where we were too timid with little competition for the ball

Disagree. Itoje-Lawes hasn't been tried because of Launchbury and Kruis. I think it's viable now. Perhaps doesn't offer as much balance as others but both are the in form 2nd rowers.

Kruis-Itoje on paper is generally more effective but Kruis is out of form.

You don't think Best offers impact?

One of the primary jobs of the backrow is the breakdown. Primary job of the 2nd rows is lineout time. It's secondary to support the backrow, an added bonus.

If you put in Best at lineout throwing to two unfamiliar jumpers I expect the NZers would have a field day

TightHEAD wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:Best can't throw in under pressure.

Yet he regularly does

Not in a Lions jersey he doesn't .

Yet he did yesterday, he did against the Blues only to not have a jumper there

Perhaps he should be a man and remove his scrum cap so he can hear the calls.  

Or maybe you should take your head out of your arse so you can watch the games properly?

Watch the Blues lineout again, Itoje calls for the throw and the ones who didn't hear it were Sincklair and Marler who don't wear scrum caps

Nice to know so many opinions are formed by what people are told rather than what they see

And you still don't stop an advancing scrum by yourself marty. Best is excellent in the scrum, simply saying you're exaggerating to increase his impact.

You're just being biased.

mikey_dragon wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Faletau though has escaped criticism due to the hype around POM

Think it was only me and one other who had pointed out POM the other day. POM isn't Welsh so has escaped much criticism. I'd still have him in Saturday's starting lineup btw.

I mean in the press, he was underpowered and it's right to say it but such was the hype around what he would bring Faletau was at the same level as POM for me. I'd merely drop Faletau to bring in Warburton and to get more players who will offer a challenge to the ABs at the breakdown

No 7&1/2 wrote:And you still don't stop an advancing scrum by yourself marty. Best is excellent in the scrum, simply saying you're exaggerating to increase his impact.

Ok

Think LT posted a good explanation from Ben kay on that missed lineout by best. Good read.

Best has as much impact from the bench as a teetotaler hitting a free bar.

TightHEAD wrote:You're just being biased.

Hardly biased when Marler and Sincklair failed to react to Itojes call

Best can't throw straight.

Dodgy line-outs seem to always happen on Best's watch.

It can't always be somebody else's fault.

I'm getting tired of seeing his sad little face when yet another line-out goes pear-shaped.

Maybe he mumbles?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Think LT posted a good explanation from Ben kay on that missed lineout by best. Good read.

Kay missed an important part though, Itoje arrived and called for the ball and it was thrown

TightHEAD wrote:Best can't throw straight.

He overcompensates when the lineouts start going wrong

marty2086 wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Think LT posted a good explanation from Ben kay on that missed lineout by best. Good read.

Kay missed an important part though, Itoje arrived and called for the ball and it was thrown

I would imagine the jumpers and lifters had little faith in Best's throwing and probably tried to second-guess him. It's tricky when the guy throws darts like Phil Taylor in a washing machine.

Have you got access to the full piece marty. Behind a block on the times website for me and can't be bothered trawling back through the previous thread.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Have you got access to the full piece marty. Behind a block on the times website for me and can't be bothered trawling back through the previous thread.

Afraid not but LTs breakdown is in the Blues thread

Ben Kay reviews this lineout in the Times today. With this summary:

1) Itoje calls the lineout to himself, aiming to repeat the Stander try.
2) The call is an "arrive and throw", ie Itoje stands out, walks in and is immediately lifted to take the throw.
3) However Best, who has been drying the ball is not ready.
4) Thus the coached plan is to switch to a timing based on the thrower.
5) Previous throws like this see the hooker pull the ball back, pause, then throw. However this time the ball is thrown immediately.
6) this means the jumper (and to a lesser degree lifter, as he reacts to teh jumper) are not ready and go up too late.

Ta. Got temp access apparently.


That it went so horribly wrong was down to Best, the replacement hooker, and Itoje, who was calling the throw to himself, being out f sync. They were not used to playing with each other: they were not used to the each other’s cues or the cadence at which each other likes to work.

Itoje stayed two paces out of the lineout until the last moment. His plan was to walk in and jump, with the help of two lifters, all in one motion. Itoje knew that the Blues would not compete in the air because they had to be ready to defend a maul but the speed of his walk and jump would have seen off any unexpected challengers.
It should have been straightforward — but as Itoje stepped into the lineout, he realised Best was not quite ready, having only just finished drying the ball.
Itoje checked his movement and the lineout became a “throw-jump”, where the lift is triggered by the hooker releasing the ball. It is the hardest one to get right because every hooker has a different action and throws the ball at a different trajectory. Itoje was expecting more of a pause, while Best, now aware that his jumper was in position, rushed to throw the ball in. The result was that what should have been an ideal throw arced over Itoje’s head.

The Lions cannot afford a repeat against the All Blacks and they must now focus on drilling the Test units so the locks are fully in sync with Best, Owens and Jamie George — because it’s the reserve hooker who will have the crucial throws at the end of the

So a mixture of Itoje and best. Unfamiliarity and.not taking care really.

No 7&1/2 wrote:So a mixture of Itoje and best. Unfamiliarity and.not taking care really.

Care wouldn't have been involved in the lineout 

I'll get my coat.

Scottrf wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:So a mixture of Itoje and best. Unfamiliarity and.not taking care really.

Care wouldn't have been involved in the lineout 

I'll get my coat.

TightHEAD wrote:Best can't throw straight.

Owens has thrown more crooked throws on tour than Best.

Plus we talk about botched throws - Owens missed one on Saturday that's seems to have escaped criticism

No 7&1/2 wrote:So a mixture of Itoje and best. Unfamiliarity and.not taking care really.

Unfamiliarity probably played a part, watching it you could see Itoje arrive and call and the ball comes in but no lift. The call from Itoje could have been unrelated and Im wrong but seems to much of a coincidence

Tried finding the video on YouTube but just my luck you can't see Itoje making the call but it definitely happened

marty2086 wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Have you got access to the full piece marty. Behind a block on the times website for me and can't be bothered trawling back through the previous thread.

Afraid not but LTs breakdown is in the Blues thread

Ben Kay reviews this lineout in the Times today. With this summary:

1) Itoje calls the lineout to himself, aiming to repeat the Stander try.
2) The call is an "arrive and throw", ie Itoje stands out, walks in and is immediately lifted to take the throw.
3) However Best, who has been drying the ball is not ready.
4) Thus the coached plan is to switch to a timing based on the thrower.
5) Previous throws like this see the hooker pull the ball back, pause, then throw. However this time the ball is thrown immediately.
6) this means the jumper (and to a lesser degree lifter, as he reacts to teh jumper) are not ready and go up too late.

Big hole in this analysis.
Now I have a lot of time foe Ben Kay but he would not be privy for the inner workings of the Lions line out throwing.

In addition the replay shows clearly that Itoje was trying to jump in sync with the throw.
That clearly suggest, given that he makes the calls, the lifters missed it.

Ultimately it comes down to familiarity that's why I'd stick with George at hooker if starting Itoje or Kruis.

Losing lineouts thanks to lack of cohesion is not a new thing.

England lineout malfunctioned in the 1st test in Argentina thanks to unfamiliarity.

How often have you seen a lineout lost with new players on the pitch? I know I've seen many.

George offers very little outside of lineout throwing. No idea how he has made it into the test side.

Best should be captaining the side at this stage.

The irony is, the problem came from two players who were more familiar with the call and working with Itoje

GunsGermsV2 wrote:George offers very little outside of lineout throwing. No idea how he has made it into the test side.

Best should be captaining the side at this stage.

Disagree there, I think if you use him right he runs some great attacking lines and is an attacking threat

From our forwards we need break down and gain line dominance first rather than attacking lines.

Hooker is a problem. George looks a shadow of the player he is coming from the bench, he's not a good starter at this level as we thought.

Best and Owens can't hit a barn door......did Gatland miss a trick and not bring Hartley?