England vs South Africa - test series thread

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

First topic message reminder :

In the fast paced nature of international cricket, we are just over a week away from the first of four test matches between SA and England - should be a good one.

South Africa have named their squad...missing some big names in Steyn, ABDV - also no Dane Piedt, Stephen Cook either.

South Africa squad: Faf du Plessis (captain), Hashim Amla, Temba Bavuma, Theunis de Bruyn, Quinton de Kock, JP Duminy, Dean Elgar, Heino Kuhn, Keshav Maharaj, Aiden Markram, Morne Morkel, Chris Morris, Duanne Olivier, Andile Phehlukwayo, Vernon Philander, Kagiso Rabada.

Still a very strong team - especially in the seam bowling ranks. Although with Faf missing the first test, the batting is reliant on Amla and De Kock I feel

England have a few injury concerns - particularly Stuart Broad - any thoughts on the SA squad, and potential England one?

[guildfordbat]

Another important contribution from Moeen when England were in a spot of bother, genuine test-class batsman at number 7(too low if you ask me) is very useful indeed.

Tonight Moeen is just 12 runs short of 2,000 in Tests. He also needs two Test wickets for 100.

Whilst some followers are still not won over by him, it's difficult to deny he's made a meaningful contribution.

[wisden]

Moeen is a luxury to have at number 7, im fine with that at lords, where he can be used as a second spin option, where we will need to rotate our bowlers, but on most pitches he is one batsman too many.

[guildfordbat]

Moeen is a luxury to have at number 7, im fine with that at lords, where he can be used as a second spin option, where we will need to rotate our bowlers, but on most pitches he is one batsman too many.

Wisden - what's your England team away from Lord's? Interested to see, thanks.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Moeen is a luxury to have at number 7, im fine with that at lords, where he can be used as a second spin option, where we will need to rotate our bowlers, but on most pitches he is one batsman too many.

I'd love to know how England with their current batting line up, can have one batsmen too many.....

Excellent stuff from Root, Stokes and Moeen today. I thought Cook's dismissal was really poor. The umpiring for Jennings one also shocking. SA with this four bowler policy isn't going to work throughout the series imo they need Morris to play at 7 and move De Kock up one.

[wisden]

With Woakes avaliable and playing at 8, we have one batsmen too many

When Woakes is fit my side is

1.Cook
2.Hameed/Jennings
3.Root
4.Ballance/Moeen
5.Bairstow
6.Stokes
7.Dawson/Moeen
8.Woakes
9.Broad
10.Anderson
11.Wood/Ball

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

With Woakes avaliable and playing at 8, we have one batsmen too many

When Woakes is fit my side is

1.Cook
2.Hameed/Jennings
3.Root
4.Ballance/Moeen
5.Bairstow
6.Stokes
7.Dawson/Moeen
8.Woakes
9.Broad
10.Anderson
11.Wood/Ball

How do you have it as Dawson/Moeen for 7? Moeen is miles ahead/better in that contest.

[guildfordbat]

Thanks, wisden. Your side seems pretty bowler heavy - that's more an observation than an out and out criticism. My team last night would not have been that different although there would have been some rejigging of the order. Essentially I would have brought Stoneman in to open with Cook and had Jennings, Root and Ballance at 3, 4, 5 respectively. No room for Dawson and Woakes obviously also on the sidelines whilst he's crocked.

Anyway, we now have to see how the actual eleven selected get on. I won't change a Test team while a Test is still being played.

[dummy_half]

So the road maps for tomorrow -
Easy one for SA - take wickets and try to get England out of there for not much over 400. Not really that much batting to come once one of Root and Ali are removed.

England - More of the same really. Will obviously have to concentrate at the start against rested bowlers and with a still new ball, but if they can see the first half hour away with no wickets lost, I think it's bat sensibly till lunch and then perhaps throw the willow a bit to aim for a declaration (or all out) mid afternoon. They scored so fast in the last hour or so that they're well up with the pace of the game.

[alfie]

Moeen is a luxury to have at number 7, im fine with that at lords, where he can be used as a second spin option, where we will need to rotate our bowlers, but on most pitches he is one batsman too many.

Seriously ? I'd say they have one bowler too many . And while at times a true batsman at seven (or even eight!) might be "surplus to requirements" ; on a day like this when the top four are blown away they come in very handy.

Allrounders enable England at present to have the best of both worlds : when all are fit they can have the luxury of a Moeen at eight and a Woakes at nine and still play five good bowlers (if you rate Moeen , who does have those 98 wickets)Or , as today , an extra spinner.

All they need are a couple more fully fit for purpose top order bats

[alfie]

Great day for Root : made the most of his early good fortune and dominated as the day and the bowlers wore down...

I didn't see the last session but wasn't surprised to see he him , and Moeen , cashing in. Thought SA - particularly Philander - bowled very well pre-lunch , when there was a bit in the pitch for the seamers ; but once Stokes and Root settled down after the sandwiches the day was heading only one way. And SA looked a bit short of ideas.

I give a lot of credit to Stokes who continues to improve as a batsman : thought his (controlled)aggression after lunch helped take the pressure off Root , who had started not quite as fluently as is his wont (feeling a little extra strain from the armband , perhaps?) Later he was able to sit back and let the skipper take over - a good partnership ; which really set things up for Moeen.

Had Root been caught early on - had Morkel not overstepped when bowling Stokes ... who knows ? Things might have gone downhill , and young Joe been forced to experience a rough start to his captaincy career ; but the evidence of today suggests that apart from being a wonderful batsman he might be one of Bonaparte's favourite characters : a "lucky" general.

[Pete C (Kiwireddevil)]

Impressive stat, the last 4 England skippers have scored a ton on their captaincy debut

[Corporalhumblebucket]

Entertaining day's play yesterday - but a truly shocking over rate. Even with extra half hour plus a slow bowler for a quarter of the overs they still only got through 87.

[dummy_half]

Entertaining day's play yesterday - but a truly shocking over rate.  Even with extra half hour plus a slow bowler for a quarter of the overs they still only got through 87.

And listening to the radio through the final session, it sounded like the umpires were doing absolutely nothing to move the game along. The last drinks break finished and then the SAs decided to bring some fielding helmets on. Also could have rushed through the last change of ends and got one further over in. Not trying to absolve South Africa of blame in the slow pace of the game, but it is surely time for the on field umpires to start taking over rates seriously.

Surely the best way to get things speeded up is to have penalties applied at the end of each session if less than 30 overs are bowled -maybe 10 runs per over not bowled (could perhaps be lenient if a side is only 1 over short as there are sometimes extenuating circumstances, but certainly a 30 run penalty for only bowling 27 overs in a session would focus the mind)

[Corporalhumblebucket]

Les Dawson fails to trouble the scorers.

[jimbohammers]

Bloody harsh LBW decision for Dawson

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Les Dawson fails to trouble the scorers.

Fortunately the pitch seems to be dry, and there will be turn so Dawson can justify his selection if he bowls well...

[guildfordbat]

Bloody harsh LBW decision for Dawson

Jimbo - little consolation to you or your man but my finger was going up as soon as Philander was screaming his lbw appeal against Broad. In real time, I thought that should have been given and then reviewed.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Entertaining day's play yesterday - but a truly shocking over rate.  Even with extra half hour plus a slow bowler for a quarter of the overs they still only got through 87.

And listening to the radio through the final session, it sounded like the umpires were doing absolutely nothing to move the game along. The last drinks break finished and then the SAs decided to bring some fielding helmets on. Also could have rushed through the last change of ends and got one further over in. Not trying to absolve South Africa of blame in the slow pace of the game, but it is surely time for the on field umpires to start taking over rates seriously.

Surely the best way to get things speeded up is to have penalties applied at the end of each session if less than 30 overs are bowled -maybe 10 runs per over not bowled (could perhaps be lenient if a side is only 1 over short as there are sometimes extenuating circumstances, but certainly a 30 run penalty for only bowling 27 overs in a session would focus the mind)

Agreed with your point re: umpires Dummy - I bet you'd see a sudden improvement in over rates if umpires along with players were fined for them. IMO as the on field law of the game, it is just as much their responsibility as it is the fielding teams.

[Corporalhumblebucket]

That's an idea Olly - dock umpire's pay as well as fielding side if they fail to control slow over rate!

[alfie]

Bloody harsh LBW decision for Dawson

Was nearly too high...on another day you get away with that.

To be fair it did look out live - to me anyway. Bit like the very similar Bairstow one yesterday. SA have done well to get both those close calls on their favour.

On the other hand Broad apparently would have gone had Elgar reviewed an appeal against him ...comms are going on about it but I think unreasonably - it looked a bit leg side live and I reckon they feared it would be umpires call at best. I get the tactical aspect but I'm not a fan of fishing expeditions.

Unusual number of lbw decisions for days one/ two at Lord's - I'd have thought there are usually more "going over" calls.

Broad having some luck ; but useful runs coming at a pace...

[Gooseberry]

Les Dawson fails to trouble the scorers.

Fortunately the pitch seems to be dry, and there will be turn so Dawson can justify his selection if he bowls well...

Think Rashid or Leach might have scored a run?

[alfie]

Guess the chance of 500 went out the door with Root - or at least Dawson - but 400 up now and if Moeen can get support from these bowlers they can still make this a very decent total. Don't want to jinx him but Moeen has played very well despite being peppered with short balls...showing his value at seven again.

[alfie]

So that's what , thirteen overs in that first hour ? Better than yesterday

Disappointed to lose Root early but England have done well to add fifty. Pitch is good for batting but not a road. Morkel bowled well...much better than day one , I thought.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

So that's what , thirteen overs in that first hour ?  Better than yesterday

Disappointed to lose Root early but England have done well to add fifty.  Pitch is good for batting but not a road. Morkel bowled well...much better than day one , I thought.

The ball that got Root was a peach tbf!

Pitch doesn't appear to be your typical Lords road - and they were saying on comms yesterday how the groundsman expects it to have some uneven bounce and spin as we get into the weekend. Good that England have managed to post a good total first up...I'd imagine they've had the best of the pitch in terms of batting....

[Gooseberry]

Unless the tail pull something remarkable here England are left with a solid but not dominating total. Lots of time left in the game for either side to get a result.

Very strong come back even if todays not gone as well as it couldve for England.

[alfie]

Definitely balls keeping a bit low , Olly ! On day two so later on...

Surprised they got one through Moeen who was looking so good ...but Wood practically walked on his lbw it was that plumb

Won't be long now...

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

There is definitely indifferent bounce here - that one to Wood kept really low, and was on the stumps. England have more than enough here...

[dummy_half]

Nice little cameo from Broad, something we've not had many of in the last couple of seasons.

[alfie]

SA overdoing the short stuff to Broad

Goes to a fifty with successive sixes ...cop that , Morkel

Why the devil don't they mix the odd Yorker in ?

Good tailend runs

[alfie]

Now Jimmy clears the ropes !

SA losing the plot here as the 450 arrives...

[Gooseberry]

So that's what , thirteen overs in that first hour ?  Better than yesterday

Disappointed to lose Root early but England have done well to add fifty.  Pitch is good for batting but not a road. Morkel bowled well...much better than day one , I thought.

The ball that got Root was a peach tbf!

Pitch doesn't appear to be your typical Lords road - and they were saying on comms yesterday how the groundsman expects it to have some uneven bounce and spin as we get into the weekend. Good that England have managed to post a good total first up...I'd imagine they've had the best of the pitch in terms of batting....

Either way I think we saw yesterday afternoon and evening why having only 3 front line seamers is problematic in the modern game when youre on this kind of pitch. SA's strike bowlers are great when fresh and with a new ball, but really couldnt keep up and deliver the number of overs of quality required of them. With nothing for the spinner (whether Englands 2 get any help waits to be seen) there was 10 overs of junk bowling from occassional medium pacers.
England of course arguably have the opposite problem ... they have loads of "front line" bowling options but (partly depending which Broad turns up and the weather tomorrow) lack the real weapons to blast out wickets at the top. Theres no genuine pace and fire. But they can keep every fresh and rotate through proper bowlers (and Dawson) even if SA do get set.

[Gooseberry]

Think Broads just making a point about being left out of the limited overs squads! 

About time he did this again ... if this signals he (and Stokes) are both on one of their "turning up" games then SA could be in for a very hard time.

[alfie]

Reckon if you were to face , particularly Wood , Goose , you might reconsider the "no pace or fire " bit

But I do get what you mean.

I felt - still do - England have one too many bowlers. But with 458 behind them they have indeed the ability to rotate and keep them fresh.
If it continues to show increasingly variable bounce I fancy England are in a good position.

[dummy_half]

...
England of course arguably have the opposite problem ... they have loads of "front line" bowling options but (partly depending which Broad turns up and the weather tomorrow) lack the real weapons to blast out wickets at the top. Theres no genuine pace and fire. But they can keep every fresh and rotate through proper bowlers (and Dawson) even if SA do get set.

Really don't agree with this - Wood is about as fast as anyone we have available in the long form of the game. Anderson is one of the best in the world at exploiting somewhat helpful conditions (Philander certainly found some help) and Broad varies between being good and being unplayable. Oh, and Stokes is a very useful strike bowler and golden arm. The problem with the bowling line-up is not with the quick / seam department...

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

458 all out - great recovery from 74-4 yesterday, SA will be ruing some missed chances. England now have a real chance to put themselves in firm control of this test...

A few overs before lunch - what they'd give to nip one out this morning

[alfie]

Lively session , wasn't it ? Hundred runs and the five wickets...and still fifteen minutes to bowl before lunch.

Despite yesterday's slow over rate the game has been moving on.

Can England strike before the break ?

[Gooseberry]

...
England of course arguably have the opposite problem ... they have loads of "front line" bowling options but (partly depending which Broad turns up and the weather tomorrow) lack the real weapons to blast out wickets at the top. Theres no genuine pace and fire. But they can keep every fresh and rotate through proper bowlers (and Dawson) even if SA do get set.

Really don't agree with this - Wood is about as fast as anyone we have available in the long form of the game. Anderson is one of the best in the world at exploiting somewhat helpful conditions (Philander certainly found some help) and Broad varies between being good and being unplayable. Oh, and Stokes is a very useful strike bowler and golden arm. The problem with the bowling line-up is not with the quick / seam department...

Yes Woods about as fast as anyone we have ...but that doesnt make him a genuine paceman or a genuine strike bowler.
Andersons lethal when he can get swing, otherwise pretty ordinary. I havent seen anything in what SA have done to suggest its going to massively suit him this afternoon, espeially as its a fairly clear day. Tomorrow morning perhaps though. Broad I think youre arguing exactly the same point I made....both he and Stokes occassionaly turn up in a big way, but more often than not dont. None of them are in the league of a fresh Morkel, Philander and Rabada for short quick bursts of wicket taking bowling (or Steyn of course). Neither of the spinners (despite what people keep wrongly saying about Moeens strike rate) are the sort to run through a team either.

Looking at the SA batting line up they seem in a similar place to England. Lots of depth and a strong 7, but question marks about the top 6. Khuns form on tour though puts Ballances county scores to shame. Duminy at 4 is a real strecth.

[Gooseberry]

Pick 4 seamers. Get a wicket.

Bowl Daswson and watch the guy picked for his ability to keep it tight get smacked all over.

Leading by example is all well and good but not gifting the opposition a get out of jail free card is another thing.


As it stands the two "edgy" selections are not looking great calls. (Hindsight etc)

[Gooseberry]

Moeen shows him how its done ... couple of cheap overs then some genuine turn. Amla was the big wicket, although Elgar looks like he could go big and de Kock is still in hiding way down the order.

Keep plugging away!

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Les Dawson fails to trouble the scorers.

Fortunately the pitch seems to be dry, and there will be turn so Dawson can justify his selection if he bowls well...

Not a good first spell...hopefully it was just nerves

[alfie]

Dawson was expensive . But Elgar came close to getting out to him when he skied one uncontrolled shot - I actually agreed with Warne that he could have had another over !
Don't think he's a real long term prospect ; but I will withhold judgement until this one is over...like guildford , I prefer not o change the team while the match is in progress...

Moeen got the Big Wicket. Got some nice turn too. Could see a bit of spin before this is finished.

SA will be glad to lose only two in the session. This partnership is unlikely to be rapid , but will look to consolidate as they have some inexperience to come...

[alfie]

Hundred Test Wickets for Moeen

Elgar added to his collection...England on top.

[alfie]

Tight from Broad today...eight overs 1/10. Maintaining the pressure...

[alfie]

And now Broad has a second...having a good day

SA in a bit of bother here...

[Gooseberry]

Olly Id suggest as much SA knowing they cpuld target him as much as anthing else. Ok that nearly resulted in a wicket but you could have had similar by asking a tin of custard to bowl.
Moeens come in with much more control and wickets straight away despite having a repuation of inviting players to get themselves out himself.

De kock still a thing. The innings is a long way from done but Broad and Moeen look a lethal combination right now.

[alfie]

This tin of custard of yours , Goose : is it any relation to Boycott's stick of rhubarb ?
Not a bad combination I suppose...

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Moeen the second fastest Englishman to 2,000 test runs and 100 wickets....ahead of the likes of Botham, Flintoff, one game behind Greig

[msp83]

So England driving the game at the end of day 2. South Africa at 214-5, doesn't have a lot of batting to come, and are still 45 away from the follow-on. Bavuma is a fighter and QDK is there yet to come. Philander is a nice option at 8 (9 here). But the new ball is not too far away for England, and an early wicket or 2 can push SA further back.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Rabada banned from the second test for swearing.

Cricket - a game where not bowling your allocated overs in a day, thus shortchanging 25,000 people (the majority who would've paid upwards of £100), is not punished yet swearing in the heat of competitive battle, is punished.

So far up itself sometimes it's utterly ridiculous.

[Gooseberry]

Its multiple offences for Rabadda and it wasnt exactly a borderline or ambiguous offence.
If youre happy to see the game develop into a series of brawls fine...but personaly Id like to see some level of sportsmanship and decorum retained.

Punishing that doesnt make the over rate OK ...but neither does would not punishing him make the over rate OK. Seperate issues.


As for the game...small advantage England but Id challenge the assesrtion theres not a lot of batting to come. Theres no number 7 out there even close to de kock, Philander would pass for an all rounder in some sides and the spinner is no mug.
These two arent quite world class but there still the potential for SA to get close to England.

Im predicting a small lead for England

[Sponsored content]