NEW ZEALAND v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS, 1 July

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NEW ZEALAND v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS  
1 July 2017
KO: 19:35 NZST (8.35am BST)
WESTPAC Wellington Regional Stadium, Wellington

Live on Sky Sports HD

Referee: Jérôme Garcès (France)
ARs: [tbc]
TMO: [tbc]

A. Head to Head

39 Played 39
30 Won 6
3 Drawn 3
6 Lost 30
664 Points 360

B. Recent Form

24 June 2017
Eden Park, Auckland
30 – 15 to New Zealand

9 July 2005 
Eden Park, Auckland 
38 – 19 to New Zealand 

2 July 2005 
Westpac Stadium, Wellington 
48 – 18 to New Zealand

25 June 2005 
Lancaster Park, Christchurch 
21 – 3 to New Zealand

3 July 1993 
Eden Park, Auckland 
30 – 13 to New Zealand 

26 June 1993 
Athletic Park, Wellington 
7 – 20 to British & Irish Lions

12 June 1993 
Lancaster Park, Christchurch 
20 – 18 to New Zealand

16 July 1983 
Eden Park, Auckland 
38 – 6 to New Zealand

2 July 1983 
Carisbrook, Dunedin 
15 – 8 to New Zealand

18 June 1983 
Athletic Park (Wellington), Wellington 
9 – 0 to New Zealand

4 June 1983 
Lancaster Park, Christchurch 
16 – 12 to New Zealand

C. TEAMS:

NEW ZEALAND

[tbc]

BRITISH & IRISH LIONS  

[tbc]

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

milkyboy wrote:I've always thought Farrell was pretty strong defensively, but today they bulldozed his channel a few times... with supporting drivers. With the lions  tackling high to stop offloads, and trying to create a maul... means it's hard to stop the drive against someone who contacts low and is isn't looking to offload. Good counter tactics from the ABs.

They did that to Farrell in the first test too. Surely he must be dropped for the third test. Is he undroppable or something?

Yes, daddy always sorts out a spot for him.

Sexton and T'eo next week, with Dan Biggar on the bench please.

123456789 wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

ebop wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

ebop wrote:It's great to see some gracious Lions supporters enjoying their win. It's really great.

Nice to see the odd gracious loser too.

Do remember that NZ still have the best rugby team around. Them losing once in a while doesn't actually threaten your masculinity

A lot of NZers can handle a loss much better than we used to given we've asserted our dominance at RWCs. A loss here and there happens. Some Lions supporters are melting down over the win. Probably a lot of pent up emotion finally seeping out. I get it. It's fine. Enjoy the win

I think NZ will be as shaken from this as much as they will grow from it. NZ can bounce back and will... but this is now a one off game. Teams generally get far closer to NZ in RWC's then most expect. Its not just pressure its that winning 8 out of 10 encounters is meaningless... what happens if tonight is one of those 2 in 10?

last year when IRE stunned them in 2016 they had a chance to get them back but there was nothing but pride at stake. No championship. Even at RWC's you have a chance to redeem yourself. For SH teams, they have 1 shot at the lions.

I think next week will be a lot closer than usual because pressure will be ramped up. NZ have it all to lose.... every tour in NZ have beaten the lions, all bar one. Beating the lions doesn't make you special in NZ. Losing to them will and that will add to the pressure. Not great when your kicker is dropping points from the tee.

SBW loss for next week is huge as well. Farrell probably could cope with Crotty tackling wise. Had SBW had a full 80 mins at Farrell sure he would have leaked ground and probably tries. Crotty you can deal with, you can't deal with a guy who is simply better than all others.

It's worth noting that the pressure is equally on the Lions, there is not a single player in Britain or Ireland playing currently who has had one game ti win a series in New Zealand. There is only one game comparable to the deciding Lions test and that's the world cup final, many of the New Zealand team have played in one or two of them not a single player in the Lions side has. It's going to be an absolutely enormous contest that's for sure.

The last one retired (am thinking of Scott Gibbs) 15 years ago so yeah. But its a one off game.

The lions know they can come back 4 years later, 8 years later and in fact chaps like Maro may have another crack at NZ in 12 years time.

Sure the Lions will feel pressure but few will be placing a huge expectation on them like the NZ public will. There is no shame in losing a series to NZ away from home 1-2. But to be part of a series where a NZ team lost to the Lions. It doesn't even compute in terms of how much pressure will be on NZ.

I don't get it. Farrell plays well has a big hand in 2 tries. Kicks his points. With te'o on the pitch I doubt we'd have won.

LordDowlais wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

milkyboy wrote:I've always thought Farrell was pretty strong defensively, but today they bulldozed his channel a few times... with supporting drivers. With the lions  tackling high to stop offloads, and trying to create a maul... means it's hard to stop the drive against someone who contacts low and is isn't looking to offload. Good counter tactics from the ABs.

They did that to Farrell in the first test too. Surely he must be dropped for the third test. Is he undroppable or something?

Yes, daddy always sorts out a spot for him.

Sexton and T'eo next week, with Dan Biggar on the bench please.

Just like Gatland has been on for his Welsh players for the last 3 tours. Can you list the things where Farrell messed up on?

So the Kaino tackle... anything else?

His passing for Faletau's try was sublime. Can you name a centre who could do that... and it wasn't a one off either, did it against Wales in the 6N.  His kicking also kept the Lions in touch.

T'eo is a top class player but NZ are such a tough side that Sexton wouldn't have had it so easy had he been on his own. In the end the plan helped re-surge AUS in 2015, has been the reason why ENG went 19/20 under Jones and why they won this test. The conditions meant T'eo wouldn't have had such an impact either.  SBW is out of the 3rd test, Crotty will replace him. No reason to play T'eo for defensive reasons now and attacking wise I think the 1-12 gives the Lions options beyond a very good ball carrier at 1st phase.

Its a pretty good strategy.

I thought the lions played better in Test 1 to be honest. They also played better in this test when it was 15 vs 15 or 14 vs 14. I thought the rugby they played when a man up was some of the worst on the whole tour. (first 20 mins of the second half was awful up to the try) Vunipola was very poor. He was almost the All Blacks best asset.

Having said that, the All Blacks played a lot better in the first test also. Retallik and Read were unplayable and Barret was flawless of the tee. They didnt play to tht level again today. The second test was a lower quality affair. Conditions played a part yes, but there was also a lot of brainless play and errors you wouldnt expect at this level. Did anyone else see Sinkler after he won the penalty? Looked to me like he was about to lose the head and had to be dragged away by George. That could have been costly.

Eeking out a close win with a numerical advantage, favourable weatherconditions, an opponent missing three kickable penalties etc does not bode well for next week. I would fancy NZ to win by 15-20 points. Especially if its dry.

catchweight wrote:I thought the lions played better in Test 1 to be honest. They also played better in this test when it was 15 vs 15 or 14 vs 14. I thought the rugby they played when a man up was some of the worst on the whole tour. (first 20 mins of the second half was awful up to the try) Vunipola was very poor. He was almost the All Blacks best asset.

Having said that, the All Blacks played a lot better in the first test also. Retallik and Read were unplayable and Barret was flawless of the tee. They didnt play to tht level again today. The second test was a lower quality affair. Conditions played a part yes, but there was also a lot of brainless play and errors you wouldnt expect at this level. Did anyone else see Sinkler after he won the penalty? Looked to me like he was about to lose the head and had to be dragged away by George. That could have been costly.

Eeking out a close win with a numerical advantage, favourable weatherconditions, an opponent missing three kickable penalties etc does not bode well for next week. I would fancy NZ to win by 15-20 points. Especially if its dry.

The weather killed the game. Remember in 2011 when Warburton was sent off. Conditions such as those meant that numerical benefits are lukewarm at best. When did NZ spin it across the backline? The lions only did it 3-4 times themselves.

Under a normal game yes NZ to win by 15-20. But this is a final. I imagine it will be very tight.

EST wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:I doubt we'll see te'o restored it worked pretty well today. I would like someone to get hold of Murray and tell him to stop box kicking quite so much. We look so much better when we actually keep the ball.

Farrell at 12 kept the ABs in the game. His tackling isn't good enough. Same with first test. They are getting so many yards through him.

Farrell was directly involved in the Faletau try twice - once going right where he and Sexton ran a loop, and then again on the way back with his long pass to Williams.  And his solid goal kicking won us the game....not quite sure why you are so against him.

I agree with Guns, its not a personal thing against Farrell at all, its against him playing 12. I also feel he is a liability there. Sexton is also a world class kicker so too much emphasis is being put on his importance for this. Defensively he is off the mark this tour. Te'o is also a much better offloader and playmaker than he is given credit for as well. For me it is either Sexton or Farrell at 10 and Te'o at 12. The 10/12 partnership worked today as the AB's lost an important player at 12 not that this partnership took the AB's apart.

The weather contributed, but not the sole reason. The error from SBW and the misses of the tee were more crucial.

I thought there was a lot of poor discipline all round by both teams given the circumstances. It felt at one stage as if both teams were consipiring to give the match away. Lions penatly, AB missed kick etc. SBW needless red card Vunipola needless yellow card etc.

Wet conditions again next week might level the game out somewhat. But if its dry I think NZ will win with something to spare.

fa0019 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

milkyboy wrote:I've always thought Farrell was pretty strong defensively, but today they bulldozed his channel a few times... with supporting drivers. With the lions  tackling high to stop offloads, and trying to create a maul... means it's hard to stop the drive against someone who contacts low and is isn't looking to offload. Good counter tactics from the ABs.

They did that to Farrell in the first test too. Surely he must be dropped for the third test. Is he undroppable or something?

Yes, daddy always sorts out a spot for him.

Sexton and T'eo next week, with Dan Biggar on the bench please.

Just like Gatland has been on for his Welsh players for the last 3 tours. Can you list the things where Farrell messed up on?

So the Kaino tackle... anything else?

His passing for Faletau's try was sublime. Can you name a centre who could do that... and it wasn't a one off either, did it against Wales in the 6N.  His kicking also kept the Lions in touch.

T'eo is a top class player but NZ are such a tough side that Sexton wouldn't have had it so easy had he been on his own. In the end the plan helped re-surge AUS in 2015, has been the reason why ENG went 19/20 under Jones and why they won this test. The conditions meant T'eo wouldn't have had such an impact either.  SBW is out of the 3rd test, Crotty will replace him. No reason to play T'eo for defensive reasons now and attacking wise I think the 1-12 gives the Lions options beyond a very good ball carrier at 1st phase.

Its a pretty good strategy.

This anti-Farrell stuff is, frankly, bizarre.

The criticism of Farrell stuff is, frankly, a reasonable opinion. The points have been reasonable, although I don't like Te'o at 12.

eirebilly wrote:

EST wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:I doubt we'll see te'o restored it worked pretty well today. I would like someone to get hold of Murray and tell him to stop box kicking quite so much. We look so much better when we actually keep the ball.

Farrell at 12 kept the ABs in the game. His tackling isn't good enough. Same with first test. They are getting so many yards through him.

Farrell was directly involved in the Faletau try twice - once going right where he and Sexton ran a loop, and then again on the way back with his long pass to Williams.  And his solid goal kicking won us the game....not quite sure why you are so against him.

I agree with Guns, its not a personal thing against Farrell at all, its against him playing 12. I also feel he is a liability there. Sexton is also a world class kicker so too much emphasis is being put on his importance for this. Defensively he is off the mark this tour. Te'o is also a much better offloader and playmaker than he is given credit for as well. For me it is either Sexton or Farrell at 10 and Te'o at 12. The 10/12 partnership worked today as the AB's lost an important player at 12 not that this partnership took the AB's apart.

I do see what you are saying, he isn't a dominant gain line tackler. But he just contributed a huge amount to the Lions victory, he and Sexton looked very good together.

We have seen on the tour that playing Teo at 12 has reduced the ability we have to get our wingers involved in the match, yes he has made lots of line breaks, but that support to him hasn't been great. The Sexton and Farrell interplay immediately brought our outside backs into the game.

To be honest, I am just glad that they have managed to gel so quickly, and provide the Lions with a really good alternative on how to play the game - I hadn't expected such tactical flexibility from Gatland.....it should be applauded.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:The criticism of Farrell stuff is, frankly, a reasonable opinion. The points have been reasonable, although I don't like Te'o at 12.

'Surely he must be dropped'

'Daddy always sorts a spot out for him'

In the context of just playing a crucial role in the Lions beating NZ, those comments sounds bizarre to me.

Herald reckons Itoje was the Lions worst player.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/rugby/news/article.cfm?c_id=80&objectid=11884720

Can't see that, myself.

EST wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:The criticism of Farrell stuff is, frankly, a reasonable opinion. The points have been reasonable, although I don't like Te'o at 12.

'Surely he must be dropped'

'Daddy always sorts a spot out for him'

In the context of just playing a crucial role in the Lions beating NZ, those comments sounds bizarre to me.

I think you should distinguish LordDowlais and his comments from everybody else.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

EST wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:The criticism of Farrell stuff is, frankly, a reasonable opinion. The points have been reasonable, although I don't like Te'o at 12.

'Surely he must be dropped'

'Daddy always sorts a spot out for him'

In the context of just playing a crucial role in the Lions beating NZ, those comments sounds bizarre to me.

I think you should distinguish LordDowlais and his comments from everybody else.

True, but one of those comments was from Guns.

Look, i'm not saying Farrell doesn't have his faults. But I think we should acknowledge the contribution he made to that win, particularly in regard to the way playing a second ball player allowed us to go coast to coast for Faletaus try.

Greetings from monsoon land.Firstly,the weather was atrocious.Secondly,given the stick that Gatland attracts let's just say we'll done Warren for the first win down here since 1993.That said:
-Mako was a lucky boy(though something seemed to wind him up soon after the 2nd half started);
-we were lucky with Barrett misfiring in his own stadium and giving brainfart penalties away next week will cost the Lions;
-it was obvious that AWJ was pumped up after last week but being picked ahead of Kruis,Lawes and Henderson(who is rumoured to be injured) still seems perverse;
-couldn't fault Warburton's effort today but he's nowhere near his tour de force performance level in the 2nd test in Oz in 2013;
-still puzzled by the thinking that picks Sexton and Farrell but Murray then kicks the ball away far too often.

Interested to see the team for next week but this morning after NZ's first loss at home since 2009 it's blydi well done Lions. Thank you and good night.

EST wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:The criticism of Farrell stuff is, frankly, a reasonable opinion. The points have been reasonable, although I don't like Te'o at 12.

'Surely he must be dropped'

'Daddy always sorts a spot out for him'

In the context of just playing a crucial role in the Lions beating NZ, those comments sounds bizarre to me.

I am certainly not saying that Farrell should be dropped. For me it is either him or Sexton to start but I would also rather have Biggar on the bench so to me, that leaves one of them being dropped from the match day squad. People have their personal preferences as to who but for me they are like for like so it will come down to the tactics which one will be picked.

Gatland seems to prefer Sexton at 10 so it may be Farrell that will suffer after a good game today (POM suffered after the first test as well). Playing Farrell at 12 costs too much defensive issues for SOB to cover for him from set pieces (line outs especially) and as such, puts SOB out of position.

We should not get carried away with the fact that it worked today due to the AB's loosing SBW.

eirebilly wrote:

EST wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:I doubt we'll see te'o restored it worked pretty well today. I would like someone to get hold of Murray and tell him to stop box kicking quite so much. We look so much better when we actually keep the ball.

Farrell at 12 kept the ABs in the game. His tackling isn't good enough. Same with first test. They are getting so many yards through him.

Farrell was directly involved in the Faletau try twice - once going right where he and Sexton ran a loop, and then again on the way back with his long pass to Williams.  And his solid goal kicking won us the game....not quite sure why you are so against him.

I agree with Guns, its not a personal thing against Farrell at all, its against him playing 12. I also feel he is a liability there. Sexton is also a world class kicker so too much emphasis is being put on his importance for this. Defensively he is off the mark this tour. Te'o is also a much better offloader and playmaker than he is given credit for as well. For me it is either Sexton or Farrell at 10 and Te'o at 12. The 10/12 partnership worked today as the AB's lost an important player at 12 not that this partnership took the AB's apart.

I can see as many reasons to drop Sexton as I can to drop Farrell.

The partnership wasn't the be all and end all but it worked, not just because the lions won but the 2 tries were clearly driven off that combo. Had T'eo played he wouldn't have had such an impact ball in hand because the ball was slower, gaps were smaller and he would have to spend a lot of time making sure he took the ball.

Farrell has his faults but I don't think you can call him a liability. How many tackles did he drop... 1. He's just not as good as T'eo.

Now if it was a dry summer ground, perfect weather and SBW was playing... yeah maybe it would be right to pick someone who can take on SBW toe for toe but he ain't playing next week.

You say t'eo can offload... question could he have made that pass to Williams for Faletaus try? Maybe but its a maybe. Thats something farrell does regularly. His hollywood passes (just like his old man's) are pretty damn good. It sets him apart.

The other reason the lions won was territory. They got more of it from last week due to their 10-12. When you have 1 kicker all the defenders can line him up. When you have splits the defending line cannot be so sure and it helps reduce pressure. This game is all about keeping teams guessing, about not being predictable. Probably the first time Gatland has played such a game.. probably why Gatland won his first test vs NZ in 13 attempts.

Rugby Fan wrote:Herald reckons Itoje was the Lions worst player.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/rugby/news/article.cfm?c_id=80&objectid=11884720

Can't see that, myself.

I thought itoje played well, dropped ball and penalty, but lineout went well, carried solidly and put himself about

eirebilly wrote:

EST wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:The criticism of Farrell stuff is, frankly, a reasonable opinion. The points have been reasonable, although I don't like Te'o at 12.

'Surely he must be dropped'

'Daddy always sorts a spot out for him'

In the context of just playing a crucial role in the Lions beating NZ, those comments sounds bizarre to me.

I am certainly not saying that Farrell should be dropped. For me it is either him or Sexton to start but I would also rather have Biggar on the bench so to me, that leaves one of them being dropped from the match day squad. People have their personal preferences as to who but for me they are like for like so it will come down to the tactics which one will be picked.

Gatland seems to prefer Sexton at 10 so it may be Farrell that will suffer after a good game today (POM suffered after the first test as well). Playing Farrell at 12 costs too much defensive issues for SOB to cover for him from set pieces (line outs especially) and as such, puts SOB out of position.

We should not get carried away with the fact that it worked today due to the AB's loosing SBW.

Biggar? What for? He is a clutch kicker I will give you that and decent tackler but can he pass like Farrell, can he run a line like Sexton?

He's quite far from those 2. Both are equally good kickers. The problem with Biggar is that he doesn't give you a plan b. Just a continuation of plan a. You can go Farrell Teo or Sexton Teo but also Sexton Farrell. I don't think Sexton Biggar nor Biggar Farrell would work and whats the point of Biggar if you need a strategy change?

eirebilly wrote:

EST wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:The criticism of Farrell stuff is, frankly, a reasonable opinion. The points have been reasonable, although I don't like Te'o at 12.

'Surely he must be dropped'

'Daddy always sorts a spot out for him'

In the context of just playing a crucial role in the Lions beating NZ, those comments sounds bizarre to me.

I am certainly not saying that Farrell should be dropped. For me it is either him or Sexton to start but I would also rather have Biggar on the bench so to me, that leaves one of them being dropped from the match day squad. People have their personal preferences as to who but for me they are like for like so it will come down to the tactics which one will be picked.

Gatland seems to prefer Sexton at 10 so it may be Farrell that will suffer after a good game today (POM suffered after the first test as well). Playing Farrell at 12 costs too much defensive issues for SOB to cover for him from set pieces (line outs especially) and as such, puts SOB out of position.

We should not get carried away with the fact that it worked today due to the AB's loosing SBW.

I see your point, there are pro's and con's to every decision. With Farrell at 12 we can get our outside backs more involved, but we lose a dominant gain line defender; with Teo at 12, we get more go forward but with reduced ball playing ability. I am very glad to go into next week with both options available to us, I had only expected Gatland to be able to chose the latter.

milkyboy wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:Herald reckons Itoje was the Lions worst player.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/rugby/news/article.cfm?c_id=80&objectid=11884720

Can't see that, myself.

I thought itoje played well, dropped ball and penalty, but lineout went well, carried solidly and put himself about

I thought he was pretty epic myself.

fa0019 wrote:

eirebilly wrote:
I am certainly not saying that Farrell should be dropped. For me it is either him or Sexton to start but I would also rather have Biggar on the bench so to me, that leaves one of them being dropped from the match day squad. People have their personal preferences as to who but for me they are like for like so it will come down to the tactics which one will be picked.

Gatland seems to prefer Sexton at 10 so it may be Farrell that will suffer after a good game today (POM suffered after the first test as well). Playing Farrell at 12 costs too much defensive issues for SOB to cover for him from set pieces (line outs especially) and as such, puts SOB out of position.

We should not get carried away with the fact that it worked today due to the AB's loosing SBW.

Biggar? What for?  He is a clutch kicker I will give you that and decent tackler but can he pass like Farrell, can he run a line like Sexton?

He's quite far from those 2. Both are equally good kickers. The problem with Biggar is that he doesn't give you a plan b. Just a continuation of plan a. You can go Farrell Teo or Sexton Teo but also Sexton Farrell. I don't think Sexton Biggar nor Biggar Farrell would work and whats the point of Biggar if you need a strategy change?

Biggar is a good kicker as well, can also pass very well and can run a line like Sexton against a tiring defence. He can not run a line like Sexton from the off but as an impact sub with fresh legs he will be an asset I feel. I cant see a strategy change for him to come on either. Biggar is a lot better than he is given credit for.

fa0019 wrote:

milkyboy wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:Herald reckons Itoje was the Lions worst player.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/rugby/news/article.cfm?c_id=80&objectid=11884720

Can't see that, myself.

I thought itoje played well, dropped ball and penalty, but lineout went well, carried solidly and put himself about

I thought he was pretty epic myself.

They also had Furlong as the best Lion which seems strange. I thought Itoje/SOB had the best workrate for the Lions, but it was shocking how little of the bench was used. Gatland won so record books and all that, but the tactical difference in the second half between the two sides was stark. We played right into NZs hands for most of the half and are incredibly lucky to have won. To not bring on fresh players to run 14 men ragged was very strange to me. I mean T'eo and STander two of the best ball carriers were not even brought on. Sexton was poor in bits, but grew into the game. AWJ was a lot better and well worth his place. Falateu was quieter than I like my 8s, but that try finish was worldclass. Warburton was good but only Mako was worse than him in the pack. Great win, NZ played very well, Read is a gentleman in defeat and hope next week is a cracker.

Thoughts about Mako?

On the one side he was a penalty machine today, but he was hard done by in th scrum imho, but on the plus side he was getting to Barrett and giving him something to worry about.

Agree on read, class player and a class act.

TightHEAD wrote:Thoughts about Mako?

On the one side he was a penalty machine today, but he was hard done by in th scrum imho, but on the plus side he was getting to Barrett and giving him something to worry about.

Yellow was harsh but perhaps they took his pen vs. barrett 2 mins earlier into consideration. 1st pen in scrum was unlucky. Franks collasped the scrum but was going forward.
Its the same debate people have with Mako all the time.

The problem for the lions is that 6 & 8 don't ball carry. Jones and Itoje don't really carry. Its only SOB and Mako. Also Mako's hands are so good they often use him as an attacking first receiver to pass back to 10. I can't see a forward doing that with the same success as Mako.

Its a risk to play him, a risk to drop him.

milkyboy wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:Herald reckons Itoje was the Lions worst player.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/rugby/news/article.cfm?c_id=80&objectid=11884720

Can't see that, myself.

I thought itoje played well, dropped ball and penalty, but lineout went well, carried solidly and put himself about

Beeb article has Maro as MOM. Not sure who got it officially

eirebilly wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

eirebilly wrote:
I am certainly not saying that Farrell should be dropped. For me it is either him or Sexton to start but I would also rather have Biggar on the bench so to me, that leaves one of them being dropped from the match day squad. People have their personal preferences as to who but for me they are like for like so it will come down to the tactics which one will be picked.

Gatland seems to prefer Sexton at 10 so it may be Farrell that will suffer after a good game today (POM suffered after the first test as well). Playing Farrell at 12 costs too much defensive issues for SOB to cover for him from set pieces (line outs especially) and as such, puts SOB out of position.

We should not get carried away with the fact that it worked today due to the AB's loosing SBW.

Biggar? What for?  He is a clutch kicker I will give you that and decent tackler but can he pass like Farrell, can he run a line like Sexton?

He's quite far from those 2. Both are equally good kickers. The problem with Biggar is that he doesn't give you a plan b. Just a continuation of plan a. You can go Farrell Teo or Sexton Teo but also Sexton Farrell. I don't think Sexton Biggar nor Biggar Farrell would work and whats the point of Biggar if you need a strategy change?

Biggar is a good kicker as well, can also pass very well and can run a line like Sexton against a tiring defence. He can not run a line like Sexton from the off but as an impact sub with fresh legs he will be an asset I feel. I cant see a strategy change for him to come on either. Biggar is a lot better than he is given credit for.

The problem is that I don't see him playing with Farrell and there is no way he can play a 10-12 with Sexton. Sexton is the daddy 10 that is a given when match fit. But there are still questions into whether he's fully back to fitness and I'd have to say if it was a case of bringing back T'eo I wouldn't drop Farrell.
Biggar just doesn't offer enough ball in hand. You say he can run a line but lets be frank.... Wales when he runs the play are a very poor attacking side. He can keep things tight but he doesn't move mountains. I'd say he's as clutch with the tee as any of the kickers but both Sexton and Farrell are as good so being good with the tee only is no longer a reason to get into the 23.

I think we should keep the 10-12. I may think that McGrath should come in and maybe Lawes if its dry. I also think Stander with Mako out may give the lions more ballast in attack (and would potentially drop Faletau.. as good as his try was, he's still been too quiet for me).

At a shove I'd say if dry...

McGrath, George, Furlong, Itoje, Lawes, Warburton, SOB, Stander, Murray, Sexton, Daly, Farrell, Davies, Watson, Williams.

If wet I'd bring back Jones for Lawes.

lostinwales wrote:

milkyboy wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:Herald reckons Itoje was the Lions worst player.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/rugby/news/article.cfm?c_id=80&objectid=11884720

Can't see that, myself.

I thought itoje played well, dropped ball and penalty, but lineout went well, carried solidly and put himself about

Beeb article has Maro as MOM. Not sure who got it officially

Maro seemed to irritate some NZ supporters. Saw one website saying he should have been carded for repeated niggle, which seemed odd.

Itoje was.just very good. Henworkedmwellmwithnboth othernl9cks. Sob was.very good. Warburton made a nuisan of himself. The only real question about the pack for me is whether vunipola starts. He is better off the bench and I'd rather have solidity on the scrum early on. He also seemed.to lose his head a bit obviously. Didn't have Hartley there to have the quiet word and lead by example. ...

No changes for me next week. To be honest, in some ways it's just as well Cement Head didn't use his bench so quickly. I wanted Webb on sooner for one I would start Vunipola again.

Personally, I didn't really think we looked like scoring a try until Faletau's magnificent finish. That's a bit of a worry. But people can rubbish this result as much as they want and try and lessen the achievement with this 14 men/3 points/Barrett off day chat, but the only thing that matters is it's 1-1, when probably everybody thought it would be 2-0 NZ at this point.

Really pleased for AWJ too.

In previous games we've Left points out there. This time we had two chances and scored both... we're either whinging we can't finish or that we can't create


To be fair, the ABs created nothing with 14 or 15 and  actually very little last week really ... just took their opportunities when they came. Defences have been largely on top.

In the game and the conditions played I would struggle to give too many players more than 7/10 performance

Itoje, while an excellent player, seems to attract undue amount of hyperbole from the press for good rather than great performances at times.

A gripping game, but not one of stellar quality.

I would prefer a pack with Stander, Tipuric and McGrath in it.

Hope Sir Ian McGeechan is ok too.

I am so chuffed for the Lions today. 15 against 14 for most of the game but NZ proved or almost proved why they are the number 1 team in the world. 

But lets be honest the Lions gave away toooooo many penalties, If  Barrett had had his kicking boots on it would have been a different score line.

It looked like the Sexton Farrell at 10 and 12 worked well.
 
But well played to the Lions, a great win today, lets see if they can do it again next week.

Listened to the first half hour on the radio in the car and watched the rest. My thoughts on the game are that we got a little bit lucky in all honesty. Had Barrett had his kicking boots on they'd have been out of sight before we got back into the game with the try.

That said, a win is a win, and away in New Zealand is huge. I thought there were some decent performances, and some quieter ones.

For the decider I'd make a couple of changes, with McGrath starting and Mako benching, and Lawes replacing AWJ with Henderson on the bench.

Rugby Fan wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

milkyboy wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:Herald reckons Itoje was the Lions worst player.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/rugby/news/article.cfm?c_id=80&objectid=11884720

Can't see that, myself.

I thought itoje played well, dropped ball and penalty, but lineout went well, carried solidly and put himself about

Beeb article has Maro as MOM. Not sure who got it officially

Maro seemed to irritate some NZ supporters. Saw one website saying he should have been carded for repeated niggle, which seemed odd.

Funny that isn't it. Guy doesn't do anything wrong bar being good.

Maro is well on his way to world class status. England are so lucky to have him and chaps like Curry for the next decade. I had dinner with a group of guys the other day, one being an old pro (backrow) and you know the player he was raving about.... "that kid who debuted for England the other day".

Ozzy3213 wrote:Listened to the first half hour on the radio in the car and watched the rest.  My thoughts on the game are that we got a little bit lucky in all honesty.  Had Barrett had his kicking boots on they'd have been out of sight before we got back into the game with the try.

That said, a win is a win, and away in New Zealand is huge.  I thought there were some decent performances, and some quieter ones.  

For the decider I'd make a couple of changes, with McGrath starting and Mako benching, and Lawes replacing AWJ with Henderson on the bench.  

The thing is its not really lucky.

Barrett kicked what 7/10. Thats a good return for him. He's not a quality kicker but NZ deem that his all round play is worthy of a test spot. He's very much like Carlos Spencer in that respect albeit Spencer never had a pack like Barrett has (Spencer for me was the best 10 the pro era has ever seen).

The question is if the final test is tight (which I expect it will be).... do you want a clutch kicker in your side rather than a top class playmaker? If anything I would go for a clutch kicker. Barrett can play 15 easy... if it comes down to a kicking duel we may see a few nervous moments for NZ as Farrell is far superior in the placekicking department (as is Sexton, Biggar, Halfpenny).

fa0019 wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Wasn't a great performance really from the lions. Mako was abysmal

Was a win though... only their 7th in 40. Sometimes all these players need is a win to put belief in these players hearts. A lot of boys out there hadn't ever beaten NZ and none of them had beaten NZ in NZ.

Well Sexton have beaten them away and at a neutral venue. Just have to win at home now

EST wrote:

eirebilly wrote:

EST wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:I doubt we'll see te'o restored it worked pretty well today. I would like someone to get hold of Murray and tell him to stop box kicking quite so much. We look so much better when we actually keep the ball.

Farrell at 12 kept the ABs in the game. His tackling isn't good enough. Same with first test. They are getting so many yards through him.

Farrell was directly involved in the Faletau try twice - once going right where he and Sexton ran a loop, and then again on the way back with his long pass to Williams.  And his solid goal kicking won us the game....not quite sure why you are so against him.

I agree with Guns, its not a personal thing against Farrell at all, its against him playing 12. I also feel he is a liability there. Sexton is also a world class kicker so too much emphasis is being put on his importance for this. Defensively he is off the mark this tour. Te'o is also a much better offloader and playmaker than he is given credit for as well. For me it is either Sexton or Farrell at 10 and Te'o at 12. The 10/12 partnership worked today as the AB's lost an important player at 12 not that this partnership took the AB's apart.

I do see what you are saying, he isn't a dominant gain line tackler.  But he just contributed a huge amount to the Lions victory, he and Sexton looked very good together.  

We have seen on the tour that playing Teo at 12 has reduced the ability we have to get our wingers involved in the match, yes he has made lots of line breaks, but that support to him hasn't been great.  The Sexton and Farrell interplay immediately brought our outside backs into the game.  

To be honest, I am just glad that they have managed to gel so quickly, and provide the Lions with a really good alternative on how to play the game - I hadn't expected such tactical flexibility from Gatland.....it should be applauded.

Yes Farrell made one good pass in the game and he got the vital kick which I think any OH would have got. Bread and butter.

However for 70 odd minutes it was obvious that Farrell was a tactical mistake from Gatland and he was also a liability in the first test. Having Farrell at 12 and stupid penalties meant that the Lions made really hard work of the win.

I think he is a fantastic player but tactically not right for this series.

Sexton back to the bench then. Would be a mistake for me but hey ho gatlandball calls!
I'm a bit dispirited that Gatland said the one Hong wrong with the performance was that we kicked too little.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

EST wrote:

eirebilly wrote:

EST wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:I doubt we'll see te'o restored it worked pretty well today. I would like someone to get hold of Murray and tell him to stop box kicking quite so much. We look so much better when we actually keep the ball.

Farrell at 12 kept the ABs in the game. His tackling isn't good enough. Same with first test. They are getting so many yards through him.

Farrell was directly involved in the Faletau try twice - once going right where he and Sexton ran a loop, and then again on the way back with his long pass to Williams.  And his solid goal kicking won us the game....not quite sure why you are so against him.

I agree with Guns, its not a personal thing against Farrell at all, its against him playing 12. I also feel he is a liability there. Sexton is also a world class kicker so too much emphasis is being put on his importance for this. Defensively he is off the mark this tour. Te'o is also a much better offloader and playmaker than he is given credit for as well. For me it is either Sexton or Farrell at 10 and Te'o at 12. The 10/12 partnership worked today as the AB's lost an important player at 12 not that this partnership took the AB's apart.

I do see what you are saying, he isn't a dominant gain line tackler.  But he just contributed a huge amount to the Lions victory, he and Sexton looked very good together.  

We have seen on the tour that playing Teo at 12 has reduced the ability we have to get our wingers involved in the match, yes he has made lots of line breaks, but that support to him hasn't been great.  The Sexton and Farrell interplay immediately brought our outside backs into the game.  

To be honest, I am just glad that they have managed to gel so quickly, and provide the Lions with a really good alternative on how to play the game - I hadn't expected such tactical flexibility from Gatland.....it should be applauded.

Yes Farrell made one good pass in the game and he got the vital kick which I think any OH would have got. Bread and butter.

However for 70 odd minutes it was obvious that Farrell was a tactical mistake from Gatland and he was also a liability in the first test. Having Farrell at 12 and stupid penalties meant that the Lions made really hard work of the win.

Kick yes... pass no. Farrell's crisp passing in midfield are quickly becoming game changers.

Interesting opinions above, I would rate the players...

Furlong - 7 Scrummaged well, and carried really well, also involved with some great doule hits
George - 6 Still going well, but I think he's just tiring as the tour goes on
Vunipola - 6 A few silly moments aside, he is absolute quality, is he a rampaging 8, is he ball playing 10? Answer, yes!
AWJ - 7 Like Furlong, defencively cracking, nuisance at ruck time, and is cheif organiser
Itoje - 6 Does what he does, incredible athletisism in the lineout, looks great around the park but end product just a little lacking
Warburton - 6 Back, but isn't a 7 anymore, and isn't a world class 6
SOB - 7 Great ball in hand, and nuisance at rucktime
Falatau - 6 Quiet day for him, had a few wing moments, took the try well and tidied up thescrum mess at times
Murray - 5 Box kicking and organisation was there, but as Mike phillips, he'S there to organise and impliment, gave away silly penalties and made errors
Sexton - 5 Silly errors everywhere, not getting under a high ball, and didn't really offer anything going forward. Bigger offers everything Sexton is currently
Farrell - 6 Did well ball in hand, I suspect his selection was weather based, but has given Gatland a real option to consider now
Davies - 7 Lacked quality ball, but is a real touch of class, and a standout on this tour
Watson 7 Like Davies, has taken his chance with both hands, and only injury will take his test shirt now
Daly - 5 Again he seems to be plugging a gap North was too injured to fill, kicked poorly today, and was largely anonymous
Williams - 6 No wonder moments this week, not really the day, but did well under high balls, and is eager to find something

I thought the bench failed to up the game like last week, Owens, Mcgrath were a buch of muchness, Lawes and Sinckler looked lively in defence. Stander must be going nuts sat there, like Webb and Teo would have been, and Nowell must be wondering what Daly offers that he doesn't. Although I have to say Gatland is probably to blame for bench performances, he seems to be the opposite of Eddie Jones, who riles his benchmen up and has them on to make an impact, Gatland just replaces like for like.

majesticimperialman wrote:I am so chuffed for the Lions today. 15 against 14 for most of the game but NZ proved or almost proved why they are the number 1 team in the world. 

But lets be honest the Lions gave away toooooo many penalties, If  Barrett had had his kicking boots on it would have been a different score line.

It looked like the Sexton Farrell at 10 and 12 worked well.
 
But well played to the Lions, a great win today, lets see if they can do it again next week.

Fanster wrote:Interesting opinions above, I would rate the players...

Furlong - 7 Scrummaged well, and carried really well, also involved with some great doule hits
George - 6 Still going well, but I think he's just tiring as the tour goes on
Vunipola - 6 A few silly moments aside, he is absolute quality, is he a rampaging 8, is he ball playing 10? Answer, yes!
AWJ - 7 Like Furlong, defencively cracking, nuisance at ruck time, and is cheif organiser
Itoje - 6 Does what he does, incredible athletisism in the lineout, looks great around the park but end product just a little lacking
Warburton - 6 Back, but isn't a 7 anymore, and isn't a world class 6
SOB - 7 Great ball in hand, and nuisance at rucktime
Falatau - 6 Quiet day for him, had a few wing moments, took the try well and tidied up thescrum mess at times
Murray - 5 Box kicking and organisation was there, but as Mike phillips, he'S there to organise and impliment, gave away silly penalties and made errors
Sexton - 5 Silly errors everywhere, not getting under a high ball, and didn't really offer anything going forward. Bigger offers everything Sexton is currently
Farrell - 6 Did well ball in hand, I suspect his selection was weather based, but has given Gatland a real option to consider now
Davies - 7 Lacked quality ball, but is a real touch of class, and a standout on this tour
Watson 7 Like Davies, has taken his chance with both hands, and only injury will take his test shirt now
Daly - 5 Again he seems to be plugging a gap North was too injured to fill, kicked poorly today, and was largely anonymous
Williams - 6 No wonder moments this week, not really the day, but did well under high balls, and is eager to find something

I thought the bench failed to up the game like last week, Owens, Mcgrath were a buch of muchness, Lawes and Sinckler looked lively in defence. Stander must be going nuts sat there, like Webb and Teo would have been, and Nowell must be wondering what Daly offers that he doesn't. Although I have to say Gatland is probably to blame for bench performances, he seems to be the opposite of Eddie Jones, who riles his benchmen up and has them on to make an impact, Gatland just replaces like for like.

I assume this is tour thus far right as I mean you couldn't give Davies a 7. He didn't do anything all game.

Itoje won 2 pens, 14 tackles made (the most of the team) and if I recall someone said earlier he was one of the top ball carrying forwards too. Ran the lineout. He was immense today.

Fanster wrote:Interesting opinions above, I would rate the players...

Furlong - 7 Scrummaged well, and carried really well, also involved with some great doule hits
George - 6 Still going well, but I think he's just tiring as the tour goes on
Vunipola - 6 A few silly moments aside, he is absolute quality, is he a rampaging 8, is he ball playing 10? Answer, yes!
AWJ - 7 Like Furlong, defencively cracking, nuisance at ruck time, and is cheif organiser
Itoje - 6 Does what he does, incredible athletisism in the lineout, looks great around the park but end product just a little lacking
Warburton - 6 Back, but isn't a 7 anymore, and isn't a world class 6
SOB - 7 Great ball in hand, and nuisance at rucktime
Falatau - 6 Quiet day for him, had a few wing moments, took the try well and tidied up thescrum mess at times
Murray - 5 Box kicking and organisation was there, but as Mike phillips, he'S there to organise and impliment, gave away silly penalties and made errors
Sexton - 5 Silly errors everywhere, not getting under a high ball, and didn't really offer anything going forward. Bigger offers everything Sexton is currently
Farrell - 6 Did well ball in hand, I suspect his selection was weather based, but has given Gatland a real option to consider now
Davies - 7 Lacked quality ball, but is a real touch of class, and a standout on this tour
Watson 7 Like Davies, has taken his chance with both hands, and only injury will take his test shirt now
Daly - 5 Again he seems to be plugging a gap North was too injured to fill, kicked poorly today, and was largely anonymous
Williams - 6 No wonder moments this week, not really the day, but did well under high balls, and is eager to find something

I thought the bench failed to up the game like last week, Owens, Mcgrath were a buch of muchness, Lawes and Sinckler looked lively in defence. Stander must be going nuts sat there, like Webb and Teo would have been, and Nowell must be wondering what Daly offers that he doesn't. Although I have to say Gatland is probably to blame for bench performances, he seems to be the opposite of Eddie Jones, who riles his benchmen up and has them on to make an impact, Gatland just replaces like for like.

Owens didn't make it onto the pitch

Davies offload behind the back of a player, 2 line breaks, 2 passes for line breaks, defensive nous and his crashes late on...

This guy has probably been the stand out back, everytime he gets involved the lions show promise!

As others mentioed, he hasn't come on to tour in great form, and he didn't get much of a shout early on, but when he did he's shown to be a touch of class, and the 13 shirt was wrapped up 2.5 weeks ago. I'd put him on par with Watson, both their stories have been similar on tour.

fa0019 wrote:....

I assume this is tour thus far right as I mean you couldn't give Davies a 7. He didn't do anything all game.

Itoje won 2 pens, 14 tackles made (the most of the team) and if I recall someone said earlier he was one of the top ball carrying forwards too. Ran the lineout. He was immense today.

Current stats (they are being revised all the time) show Itoje with 8 carries for 11 m, SOB with 9 for 19. JD2 also had 8 carries.
Tackles Itoje 15 made 3 missed SOB 12 and 1.

As an England fan I have to say we are immensly lucky to have Itoje. He isn't the finished article yet but he is a bit special and will only get better.