66 minutes

First topic message reminder :

66 minutes.

That is the amount of test match minutes Scotland has contributed to the Lions test matches in 4 tours

-2005-

3rd (dead rubber) test
Gordon Bulloch 10 minutes

from the bench

-2009-

3rd (dead rubber) test
Ross Ford 43 minutes from the

bench

-2013-
3rd test
Richie Gray 13 minutes from the
bench

-2017-
No test involvement

People honestly wonder why we struggle to get behind the team?

Blustering rants tend not to have much explanation behind them 7.5, its something akin to most Brexit voters

BamBam wrote:Ranting bluster tends not to have much explanation behind it 7.5

Do you just follow me around this forum to troll ?

Just happen to be on the thread when you post your nonsense, don't think you're special LD

It's a discussion forum. Someone says something. Someone else says why do you think that.sometimes people explain their own thoughts. Someone's they don't and you have to question whether they really know their own point.

And as for 2005, 2009 and 2013, you were muck back then

But even poor teams can have one or two good players (back to the Parisse example), so you'd expect even a weak Scotland to provide more than 0.46% of the playing resources to tests over the last 4 Lions tours. Certainly you'd think that some of the scrum halfs (Blair, Cussiter) and back rows (Taylor, White) were good enough to contribute more than they did.

An often used example is that they are better than the sum of their parts and that they have no standout players. Something that England have been accused of in the last 8 years or so. I think that's rubbish really and if you really.want to go down that route we should have an all.all . Scottish coaching group as the rest are obviously rubbish!

I was half hoping that Hogg and Seymour turned round and said no thank you when it was first announced, however they still see it as an honour and fair play to them (I would still say yes)

I have followed the Lions (and even went to 2005) but after this, I am certainly not excited about the Lions any more and really am not sure I would bother again

(Although would quite like to tour SA)

Gatland should never have been selected again and has done more damage to the Lions that Woodward (Due to 2 attempts to ruin it)

Go Lions - but don't really care either way

So the conclusion is that there IS a vendetta against Scotland? There definitely IS a conspiracy? Successive coaches (including Scotland's own Sir Ian McGeechan - see 2009 tour) DO want to erase Scotland from the Lions? What other conclusion can be drawn?

Griff wrote:So the conclusion is that there IS a vendetta against Scotland?  There definitely IS a conspiracy? Successive coaches (including Scotland's own Sir Ian McGeechan - see 2009 tour) DO want to erase Scotland from the Lions?  What other conclusion can be drawn?  

That the Welsh have world class individuals, but the collective ability/coaching of a Pacific Island team.

Well gatland said himself there would be bias against the scots. Not exactly a vendetta just he and he coaches picked can't judge players without wanting to favour guys they know or are.likely to have to coach when they go back to their countries.

Scottrf wrote:

Griff wrote:So the conclusion is that there IS a vendetta against Scotland?  There definitely IS a conspiracy? Successive coaches (including Scotland's own Sir Ian McGeechan - see 2009 tour) DO want to erase Scotland from the Lions?  What other conclusion can be drawn?  

That the Welsh have world class individuals, but the collective ability/coaching of a Pacific Island team.

What's this got to do with Wales? I'm answering the OP.

Griff wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

Griff wrote:So the conclusion is that there IS a vendetta against Scotland?  There definitely IS a conspiracy? Successive coaches (including Scotland's own Sir Ian McGeechan - see 2009 tour) DO want to erase Scotland from the Lions?  What other conclusion can be drawn?  

That the Welsh have world class individuals, but the collective ability/coaching of a Pacific Island team.

What's this got to do with Wales?  I'm answering the OP.

Don't bother Griff.

They all say that there is no anti Welsh/Wales on here, yet for some reason or another it always comes back to Welsh/Wales.

The sign of a lost debate. Anti Welsh anti Welsh he screamed.

dummy_half wrote:And as for 2005, 2009 and 2013, you were muck back then

But even poor teams can have one or two good players (back to the Parisse example), so you'd expect even a weak Scotland to provide more than 0.46% of the playing resources to tests over the last 4 Lions tours. Certainly you'd think that some of the scrum halfs (Blair, Cussiter) and back rows (Taylor, White) were good enough to contribute more than they did.

If you had a player of Parisse's quality, maybe you'd have an arguement. But you didn't.

Blair, Cussiter- were they better than Philips, Peel, Ellis or Dawson? maybe one was worth a bench spot, but neither are really standout.

Taylor, White- Taylor was famously unlucky with injury, was selected for 2005 but got injured. White came good after 2005, but by 2009 was not as good as Wallace, Ferris, R Jones, Heaslip; and Croft added something different with his pace.

LordDowlais wrote:

Griff wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

Griff wrote:So the conclusion is that there IS a vendetta against Scotland?  There definitely IS a conspiracy? Successive coaches (including Scotland's own Sir Ian McGeechan - see 2009 tour) DO want to erase Scotland from the Lions?  What other conclusion can be drawn?  

That the Welsh have world class individuals, but the collective ability/coaching of a Pacific Island team.

What's this got to do with Wales?  I'm answering the OP.

Don't bother Griff.

They all say that there is no anti Welsh/Wales on here, yet for some reason or another it always comes back to Welsh/Wales.

I agree with them that there's no anti-welsh theme.  I've never said there has been.  I'm not on your side on that.  There's just anti-Gatland.  However, the OP is about lack of Scotland minutes.  We seem to have exhausted all bases about the reasons, e.g. 50/50 calls, players having a better one off game or two, better seasons, better stats, players winning international tournaments vs not, and there has been no agreement.  So I'm asking if the final word is simply that there IS a conspiracy against Scotland from the likes of Woodward, McGeechan and Gatland?

LordDowlais wrote:

Griff wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

Griff wrote:So the conclusion is that there IS a vendetta against Scotland?  There definitely IS a conspiracy? Successive coaches (including Scotland's own Sir Ian McGeechan - see 2009 tour) DO want to erase Scotland from the Lions?  What other conclusion can be drawn?  

That the Welsh have world class individuals, but the collective ability/coaching of a Pacific Island team.

What's this got to do with Wales?  I'm answering the OP.

Don't bother Griff.

They all say that there is no anti Welsh/Wales on here, yet for some reason or another it always comes back to Welsh/Wales.

Eeeer you were the first person to bring up Anti-welsh or Welsh?

Not supporting the Lions because you don't agree with selection is akin to not supporting your national team because of insufficient representation from your club/region/province - it's childish and petty. Much worse for England with 12 clubs as opposed to 4 in Wales and Ireland and just 2 in Scotland. The ethos of the Lions has been to select the best players from Britain and Ireland. You may not agree with the selection of the squad or the team, but if you support the Lions then you support them come what may. I was upset with Woodward on his disastrous, blinkered approach but when it came to the games I was 100% behind the team.

Griff wrote:I agree with them that there's no anti-welsh theme.

If that is the case then, why post this ?

Scottrf wrote:That the Welsh have world class individuals, but the collective ability/coaching of a Pacific Island team.

Why even mention Wales ?

Your first post ld on a lack of representation for Scottish players asked which Welsh should not be there....you brought up the Welsh when the real question should have focused on the whole squad(s).

Scarpia wrote:Not supporting the Lions because you don't agree with selection is akin to not supporting your national team because of insufficient representation from your club/region/province - it's childish and petty. Much worse for England with 12 clubs as opposed to 4 in Wales and Ireland and just 2 in Scotland. The ethos of the Lions has been to select the best players from Britain and Ireland. You may not agree with the selection of the squad or the team, but if you support the Lions then you support them come what may. I was upset with Woodward on his disastrous, blinkered approach but when it came to the games I was 100% behind the team.

But quite clearly it isn't and wasn't

We have out of form and injured players being selected over better players (from all nations) - for 2 tours now

Griff wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Griff wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

Griff wrote:So the conclusion is that there IS a vendetta against Scotland?  There definitely IS a conspiracy? Successive coaches (including Scotland's own Sir Ian McGeechan - see 2009 tour) DO want to erase Scotland from the Lions?  What other conclusion can be drawn?  

That the Welsh have world class individuals, but the collective ability/coaching of a Pacific Island team.

What's this got to do with Wales?  I'm answering the OP.

Don't bother Griff.

They all say that there is no anti Welsh/Wales on here, yet for some reason or another it always comes back to Welsh/Wales.

I agree with them that there's no anti-welsh theme.  I've never said there has been.  I'm not on your side on that.  There's just anti-Gatland.  However, the OP is about lack of Scotland minutes.  We seem to have exhausted all bases about the reasons, e.g. 50/50 calls, players having a better one off game or two, better seasons, better stats, players winning international tournaments vs not, and there has been no agreement.  So I'm asking if the final word is simply that there IS a conspiracy against Scotland from the likes of Woodward, McGeechan and Gatland?

No, their players aren't good enough or got injured. Taylor (2005), Hogg, H Jones, Nel all could have been starters, but were unlucky with injury

Scottrf wrote:That the Welsh have world class individuals, but the collective ability/coaching of a Pacific Island team.

Why even mention Wales ?

Because we're talking about a potential conspiracy against Scottish players from the coach of the Welsh team, who have over-representation based on performance, while Scotland have under-representation.

R!skysports wrote:

Scarpia wrote:Not supporting the Lions because you don't agree with selection is akin to not supporting your national team because of insufficient representation from your club/region/province - it's childish and petty. Much worse for England with 12 clubs as opposed to 4 in Wales and Ireland and just 2 in Scotland. The ethos of the Lions has been to select the best players from Britain and Ireland. You may not agree with the selection of the squad or the team, but if you support the Lions then you support them come what may. I was upset with Woodward on his disastrous, blinkered approach but when it came to the games I was 100% behind the team.

But quite clearly it isn't and wasn't

We have out of form and injured players being selected over better players (from all nations)  - for 2 tours now

That's opinion, not fact

No 7&1/2 wrote:Your first post ld on a lack of representation for Scottish players asked which Welsh should not be there....you brought up the Welsh when the real question should have focused on the whole squad(s).

Pretty sure LD was responding to this:

"So current form has nothing to do with it, hence Welsh dross getting picked despite finishing 5th".

BamBam wrote:Blustering rants tend not to have much explanation behind them 7.5, its something akin to most Brexit voters

Interesting. Meanwhile, back in real life, Remoaners are still calling people who voted to leave the European Union racists, xenophobes and every other -ist and -phobe under the sun. Not wanting to turn this into a political discussion, just thought I would add a bit of clarity to this bigoted statement usually aimed at working class voters.

Unless you're joking of course, in which case I apologise.

Scottrf wrote:

Scottrf wrote:That the Welsh have world class individuals, but the collective ability/coaching of a Pacific Island team.

Why even mention Wales ?

Because we're talking about a potential conspiracy against Scottish players from the coach of the Welsh team, who have over-representation based on performance, while Scotland have under-representation.

Which is fine.

But what has that got to do with how Wales are coached ?

Also, I do not think Scotland have under-representation because of Wales. So again, that is another dig you've had at Wales/Welsh. There are other players from other countries there who we could argue the toss over as well.

LordDowlais wrote:

Which is fine.

But what has that got to do with how Wales are coached ?

Because if all of those players are good enough, they must be badly coached to be so lowly ranked.

And what's he doing Griff? Constantly bringing it back to an anti Welsh debate. He's. Moved the thread to a which wales players should be dropped then moans about the replies.see above.

Scottrf wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Which is fine.

But what has that got to do with how Wales are coached ?

Because if all of those players are good enough, they must be badly coached to be so lowly ranked.

You do know that these players have not been coached by Gatland for over a year now don't you ?

Griff wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Your first post ld on a lack of representation for Scottish players asked which Welsh should not be there....you brought up the Welsh when the real question should have focused on the whole squad(s).

Pretty sure LD was responding to this:  

"So current form has nothing to do with it, hence Welsh dross getting picked despite finishing 5th".

I have him on ignore Griff.

But yes, these are the comments I am referring to.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

BamBam wrote:Blustering rants tend not to have much explanation behind them 7.5, its something akin to most Brexit voters

Interesting. Meanwhile, back in real life, Remoaners are still calling people who voted to leave the European Union racists, xenophobes and every other -ist and -phobe under the sun. Not wanting to turn this into a political discussion, just thought I would add a bit of clarity to this bigoted statement usually aimed at working class voters.

Unless you're joking of course, in which case I apologise.

I voted Brexit

I just thought it would annoy Dowlais

LordDowlais wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Which is fine.

But what has that got to do with how Wales are coached ?

Because if all of those players are good enough, they must be badly coached to be so lowly ranked.

You do know that these players have not been coached by Gatland for over a year now don't you ?

I didn't mention Gatland.

BamBam wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

BamBam wrote:Blustering rants tend not to have much explanation behind them 7.5, its something akin to most Brexit voters

Interesting. Meanwhile, back in real life, Remoaners are still calling people who voted to leave the European Union racists, xenophobes and every other -ist and -phobe under the sun. Not wanting to turn this into a political discussion, just thought I would add a bit of clarity to this bigoted statement usually aimed at working class voters.

Unless you're joking of course, in which case I apologise.

I voted Brexit

I just thought it would annoy Dowlais

You're a racist and a xenophobe and we can no longer speak on this forum.

Scottrf wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Which is fine.

But what has that got to do with how Wales are coached ?

Because if all of those players are good enough, they must be badly coached to be so lowly ranked.

You do know that these players have not been coached by Gatland for over a year now don't you ?

I didn't mention Gatland.

Come on.

You have been caught out. Let's just move on.

BamBam wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

BamBam wrote:Blustering rants tend not to have much explanation behind them 7.5, its something akin to most Brexit voters

Interesting. Meanwhile, back in real life, Remoaners are still calling people who voted to leave the European Union racists, xenophobes and every other -ist and -phobe under the sun. Not wanting to turn this into a political discussion, just thought I would add a bit of clarity to this bigoted statement usually aimed at working class voters.

Unless you're joking of course, in which case I apologise.

I voted Brexit

I just thought it would annoy Dowlais

So you are trolling me then.

R!skysports wrote:
Gatland should never have been selected again and has done more damage to the Lions that Woodward (Due to 2 attempts to ruin it)

Although I am not a Gatland fan and do believe that his selection policy is rather flawed, its harsh to say that he has damaged the Lions.

Series win in Australia and a chance to win in NZ.

Of the 5 Lions test's he has led he has won 3 and lost 2. At the end of this series, he will have at the very worst a 50% winning ratio as Lions coach. That is pretty good I think.

Always easier to ignore than make a rational argument.

Wales could well be over-represented, but that doesn't mean Scotland is under-represented. On quality and form, it is the English and Irish that have most to complain about.

Care > Laidlaw
Launchbury > Gray
Ford > Russell

Jones, Nel, Hogg well worth places, but not available.

I agree with the comments about nel not being available. He was out with a long term injury. We also agree that Kruis jones Warburton et al should have been left behind as well I presume?

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

BamBam wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

BamBam wrote:Blustering rants tend not to have much explanation behind them 7.5, its something akin to most Brexit voters

Interesting. Meanwhile, back in real life, Remoaners are still calling people who voted to leave the European Union racists, xenophobes and every other -ist and -phobe under the sun. Not wanting to turn this into a political discussion, just thought I would add a bit of clarity to this bigoted statement usually aimed at working class voters.

Unless you're joking of course, in which case I apologise.

I voted Brexit

I just thought it would annoy Dowlais

You're a racist and a xenophobe and we can no longer speak on this forum.

I'm triggered

No 7&1/2 wrote:I agree with the comments about nel not being available. He was out with a long term injury. We also agree that Kruis jones Warburton et al should have been left behind as well I presume?

Apples and Oranges. Kruis jones Warburton have (at least to Gatland) proven that they are big game players, Nel doesn't have that in the bank yet. Kruis was fully fit and was immense for Sarries. jones, Warburton are Gatland favs and were only injured from march-May/June. Not really long term to affect fitness or form like a 9 month injury.

Not sure I'd put Kruis as immense when he returned but ok. And yes I agree the others are favs...and is one of the points of Scotland's low representation.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

BamBam wrote:Blustering rants tend not to have much explanation behind them 7.5, its something akin to most Brexit voters

Interesting. Meanwhile, back in real life, Remoaners are still calling people who voted to leave the European Union racists, xenophobes and every other -ist and -phobe under the sun. Not wanting to turn this into a political discussion, just thought I would add a bit of clarity to this bigoted statement usually aimed at working class voters.

Unless you're joking of course, in which case I apologise.

Take it you voted DUP then?

Gooseberry wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

BamBam wrote:Blustering rants tend not to have much explanation behind them 7.5, its something akin to most Brexit voters

Interesting. Meanwhile, back in real life, Remoaners are still calling people who voted to leave the European Union racists, xenophobes and every other -ist and -phobe under the sun. Not wanting to turn this into a political discussion, just thought I would add a bit of clarity to this bigoted statement usually aimed at working class voters.

Unless you're joking of course, in which case I apologise.

Take it you voted DUP then?

I don't vote, actually.

I'm also sensible and courteous enough not to judge or make assumptions about individuals based on their political views. I would appreciate it if many others did the same. I know some very decent folks who vote DUP and some not-so-decent folks who vote DUP.

Griff wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Griff wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

Griff wrote:So the conclusion is that there IS a vendetta against Scotland?  There definitely IS a conspiracy? Successive coaches (including Scotland's own Sir Ian McGeechan - see 2009 tour) DO want to erase Scotland from the Lions?  What other conclusion can be drawn?  

That the Welsh have world class individuals, but the collective ability/coaching of a Pacific Island team.

What's this got to do with Wales?  I'm answering the OP.

Don't bother Griff.

They all say that there is no anti Welsh/Wales on here, yet for some reason or another it always comes back to Welsh/Wales.

I agree with them that there's no anti-welsh theme.  I've never said there has been.  I'm not on your side on that.  There's just anti-Gatland.  However, the OP is about lack of Scotland minutes.  We seem to have exhausted all bases about the reasons, e.g. 50/50 calls, players having a better one off game or two, better seasons, better stats, players winning international tournaments vs not, and there has been no agreement.  So I'm asking if the final word is simply that there IS a conspiracy against Scotland from the likes of Woodward, McGeechan and Gatland?

McGeechan's hands were tied in '09 because we were rubbish. No complaints about that tour. Euan Murray probably would have been a test started if he hadn't broken his ankle. Hines was unlucky behind POC and AWJ who were outstanding. Blair was behind Phillips in my book so no complaints and Ford was behind Rees so again no complaints. However he (McGeechan) at least gave those worthy of touring a chance to lay down a marker, even if they didn't. At the time of selection i thought he got the squad right based on how the countries were performing.

Woodward picked his England side plus a few guests, but Gatland, particularly this year ignored form and how well certain players were playing and picked players he was familiar with and hid behind "the no scottish voice on the selection pannel" as justifiication.

Given everyone (literally everyone) agrees Woodward's selections and tour as a whole were a disaster, benchmarking Gatland against him doesn't seem too clever

Scarpia wrote:Not supporting the Lions because you don't agree with selection is akin to not supporting your national team because of insufficient representation from your club/region/province - it's childish and petty. Much worse for England with 12 clubs as opposed to 4 in Wales and Ireland and just 2 in Scotland. The ethos of the Lions has been to select the best players from Britain and Ireland. You may not agree with the selection of the squad or the team, but if you support the Lions then you support them come what may. I was upset with Woodward on his disastrous, blinkered approach but when it came to the games I was 100% behind the team.

I am behind the team, just not the coach or his policies. I said on another thread I now have a conflict of interests. I'm desperate for the Lions badge, players to make history.

The thought of Gatland is his controversial tour and decisions being vindicated actually horrifies me.

I suppose if you believe a win vindicates all. I'm not sure. I think we will win on saturday but don't believe only 1 set of conditions would bring that about so then you have to bring through other factors. The fact there is focus on the bbc and beyond about Scottish representation suggests that it isn't simply about a win but more about the joint effort?

There is a bright side to having few players on tour. As a Lions/Scotland fan you were able to watch your teams win in Australia and NZ this summer. And that match in Aus would never have happened if you were expected to lose 6+ of your best players to the Lions.

Also you will have less players with post lions hangovers for next season, and you got a very productive tour with your new coach right in the middle of the 2019 RWC cycle.

Not all doom and gloom.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I suppose if you believe a win vindicates all. I'm not sure. I think we will win on saturday but don't believe only 1 set of conditions would bring that about so then you have to bring through other factors. The fact there is focus on the bbc and beyond about Scottish representation suggests that it isn't simply about a win but more about the joint effort?

If it was win at all costs surely we should have had EJ and the England squad, they are familiar with each other, 6N winners blah blah blah...

The lions is about 4 nations coming together and achieving the improbable.

If the 4 nations aren't involved then what's the point?

If the Lions win on Saturday and achieve the improbable great! At what cost? The cost is a completely apathetic member of the 4 nations who feel numb to the whole experience and see it as a triumph, but a triumph without soul.

The Lions in this pro era of results driven success IMO has forgotten what makes the tours great.