66 minutes

First topic message reminder :

66 minutes.

That is the amount of test match minutes Scotland has contributed to the Lions test matches in 4 tours

-2005-

3rd (dead rubber) test
Gordon Bulloch 10 minutes

from the bench

-2009-

3rd (dead rubber) test
Ross Ford 43 minutes from the

bench

-2013-
3rd test
Richie Gray 13 minutes from the
bench

-2017-
No test involvement

People honestly wonder why we struggle to get behind the team?

munkian wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:So you're agreeing that scotland are a shade better but you think wales will improve.

I agree with this but normal service will be resumed come the 6 Nations and Scotland will be fighting Italy for a wooden stirring implement.

Yes this. Scotland are not a better team, they had a better coaching team over the last few months though.

LordDowlais wrote:

Cyril wrote:I don't tend to look at the rankings below 2nd. Everyone from 3rd-10th are much of a muchness and could probably beat each other 'on their day'.

This.

New Zealand are stand out alone, worlds ahead of everyone else, all the others are fighting it out for 2nd at the minute. Which makes the Lions tour a lot more impressive.

Er, not quite what I meant

England are closer in rankings points to NZ than Ireland are to England.

I'd say it's

1. NZ

2. England




The rest.

6 nations could well see it. As I've pointed out before its not a competition which will guarantee the best team wins due to the format of it. I agree with beshocked scotland and Wales are close, the home team.would be favourites. I hunk Scotland's overall squad is still a jot below though.

LordDowlais wrote:

Cyril wrote:I don't tend to look at the rankings below 2nd. Everyone from 3rd-10th are much of a muchness and could probably beat each other 'on their day'.

This.

New Zealand are stand out alone, worlds ahead of everyone else, all the others are fighting it out for 2nd at the minute. Which makes the Lions tour a lot more impressive.

Well going by the world rankings - NZ are out in front by almost 5 ranking points. England comfortably in 2nd.

It's a bit more of a dogfight - 3rd-7th. Of course it seems that the Scotland-Wales rivalry is building nicely - 6th and 7th.


Lots of jostling for positions.


I'd say Scotland are better than Wales in some positions but not others.

2nd row,fly half, centres and back three - I'd go with Scotland. Frontrow,backrow, scrum half I'd go with Wales.

That's 8 to Scotland, 7 to Wales.

Only my personal opinion of course.

Yeah, JD is awful....

At passing.

beshocked wrote:mikey dragon why don't you think Ireland are 3rd best in world? They've beaten the top 2 in the last year. They might have lost to Scotland and Wales but neither are bad.

I think the current rankings are pretty accurate.

Scotland have shown their potential with some big notable wins vs Australia,Wales and Ireland but then again they still aren't on balance as good as the top 3.


The ranking table looks a bit strange because of stronger home nations performances and SA/Australia underperforming. Also France and Argentina aren't doing great.

I just don't think the third best team in the world would lose to Scotland and a Howley-McBryde type Wales.

munkian wrote:Yeah, JD is awful....

Pretty pleased with how our 2nd row went as well, AWJ and Ball are a good partnership. I don't get the hype around the Gray's although Johnny does occasionally play well.

mikey_dragon wrote:

beshocked wrote:mikey dragon why don't you think Ireland are 3rd best in world? They've beaten the top 2 in the last year. They might have lost to Scotland and Wales but neither are bad.

I think the current rankings are pretty accurate.

Scotland have shown their potential with some big notable wins vs Australia,Wales and Ireland but then again they still aren't on balance as good as the top 3.


The ranking table looks a bit strange because of stronger home nations performances and SA/Australia underperforming. Also France and Argentina aren't doing great.

I just don't think the third best team in the world would lose to Scotland and a Howley-McBryde type Wales.

Who is 3rd then?

Hard to make a case for Australia,SA or any other country.

England were a whisker away from losing to Wales in the 6 nations.

Scotland have beaten France,Ireland and Wales at home in the last 2 6 nations.

It was difficult to win away from home against anyone not called Italy this year.

Well there's NZ, then there's England, and then the rest. The rest can occasionally beat England but aren't that consistent. Ireland are a bit better than the rest but I just don't think they're 3rd best in the world because again they lost to Scotland and Wales.

No 7&1/2 wrote:At passing.

Have you not watched any pro12 or Lions games recently ?

The Welsh midfield will be the same mid field as the Pro12 champions.

munkian wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:At passing.

Have you not watched any pro12 or Lions games recently ?

The Welsh midfield will be the same mid field as the Pro12 champions.

People will only see what they want to see.

I don't think his passing is good for international outside centre. He had a top quality offload pass in the first test, another offload for sob try. Struggling to think of any notable passes on the run.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I don't think his passing is good for international outside centre. He had a top quality offload pass in the first test, another offload for sob try. Struggling to think of any notable passes on the run.

Yet people are creaming over Farrell who couldn't tackle or pass for toffee and whose kicking game was shaky...

Were they? Missed that. He was the best fly half on tour but a real shame that ford or Russell ( who didn't get a go really) weren't taken initially. If gatland had the tour over I wonder what he would change.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Were they? Missed that. He was the best fly half on tour but a real shame that ford or Russell ( who didn't get a go really) weren't taken initially.  If gatland had the tour over I wonder what he would change.

Did you not listen to the sky commentary ? Or read any social media comments ?

Best fly half on tour ? Based on what ? His kicking percentage was the lowest and he missed the most tackles of ANY Lions player.

munkian wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Were they? Missed that. He was the best fly half on tour but a real shame that ford or Russell ( who didn't get a go really) weren't taken initially.  If gatland had the tour over I wonder what he would change.

Did you not listen to the sky commentary ? Or read any social media comments ?

Best fly half on tour ? Based on what ? His kicking percentage was the lowest and he missed the most tackles of ANY Lions player.

Ford or Russell should have gone instead of Farrell, but what he is alluding to is that Biggar should not have toured. If daddy was not there, perhaps we would have seen a different inclusion.

Munkian whilst I think Farrell has flaws, I do think that he generally nails the big kicks. Barrett in comparison faltered a bit in that sense.

Farrell also has a lot of experience winning big games, sure he's not always on the winning side but more often than not he is.

Based on performance munkian. Sexton was off his game though was improving and Biggar is just a level or so below the others. Most of his missed tackles came from 12 but the tactic seemed to be getting Farrell to fly up quick and cut off the wider ball and force Barrett etc inside. It meant he missed tackles but stopped the ball getting wider quickly. It also offered a better opportunity for jd to target the wider player who were getting rushed passes. To me anyway I'm sure there ll be others who saw things differently.

If Farrell senior had not been there its likely that owen would have still toured as he's one of the best fly half's in he world. Farrell senior has seemingly developed systems which nz are currently struggling with though like him or not.

As his Dad developed the defensive systems you'd have thought he would have been more up to speed.

As I've said I think he was. Ypu saw a similar missed tackle be te'o when he came on. What do you feel was the aim of Farrell seniors system?

Its all about perception. That and the 'my player can do everything yours can just better' thing.

Farrell started the third test terribly - that was the worst I've ever seen him play. He was alright for the final 66 minutes I guess...

beshocked wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

beshocked wrote:mikey dragon why don't you think Ireland are 3rd best in world? They've beaten the top 2 in the last year. They might have lost to Scotland and Wales but neither are bad.

I think the current rankings are pretty accurate.

Scotland have shown their potential with some big notable wins vs Australia,Wales and Ireland but then again they still aren't on balance as good as the top 3.


The ranking table looks a bit strange because of stronger home nations performances and SA/Australia underperforming. Also France and Argentina aren't doing great.

I just don't think the third best team in the world would lose to Scotland and a Howley-McBryde type Wales.

Who is 3rd then?

Hard to make a case for Australia,SA or any other country.

England were a whisker away from losing to Wales in the 6 nations.

Scotland have beaten France,Ireland and Wales at home in the last 2 6 nations.

It was difficult to win away from home against anyone not called Italy this year.

I think it may be Ireland's to keep for a while. Very few places where you can say their team has weaknesses.

AUS just don't convince me and SA whilst better than their 2016 nightmare will struggle when they face better sides. They have a very weak backrow albeit their front five is again getting strong. They're playing too many little guys in a big man's game.

I can't see the Welsh players getting better than they are now but their new flyhalf may turn into a real find... but I think its their front 5 which is their biggest problem and it won't matter a hill of beans how good your 10 is if you're on the backfoot. They can match others from 6-15 but from 1-5 I think they fall short. They have a tough AI tour.. SA, AUS and NZ. The rest have probably wisely gone for more tame matches perhaps knowing the lions series would meant battered bodies.

Scotland have to keep up with these teams and that's their challenge. Got to start expecting to win at home as a minimum but develop a big pack. Like Wales they have very good players but I still question their front row.

Its interesting anyhow. Think the RC may be a walk over. Argentina lets be honest are poor. Bad in SR, bad vs. a b/c ENG side. How can the 8th best team in the world not beat ENG b/c side at home.

Ireland is a funny one. Not consistant. But the only team (outside of the Lions) to have got a win over the top two ranked teams over the last couple of years.

fa0019 wrote:

beshocked wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

beshocked wrote:mikey dragon why don't you think Ireland are 3rd best in world? They've beaten the top 2 in the last year. They might have lost to Scotland and Wales but neither are bad.

I think the current rankings are pretty accurate.

Scotland have shown their potential with some big notable wins vs Australia,Wales and Ireland but then again they still aren't on balance as good as the top 3.


The ranking table looks a bit strange because of stronger home nations performances and SA/Australia underperforming. Also France and Argentina aren't doing great.

I just don't think the third best team in the world would lose to Scotland and a Howley-McBryde type Wales.

Who is 3rd then?

Hard to make a case for Australia,SA or any other country.

England were a whisker away from losing to Wales in the 6 nations.

Scotland have beaten France,Ireland and Wales at home in the last 2 6 nations.

It was difficult to win away from home against anyone not called Italy this year.

I think it may be Ireland's to keep for a while. Very few places where you can say their team has weaknesses.

AUS just don't convince me and SA whilst better than their 2016 nightmare will struggle when they face better sides. They have a very weak backrow albeit their front five is again getting strong. They're playing too many little guys in a big man's game.

I can't see the Welsh players getting better than they are now but their new flyhalf may turn into a real find... but I think its their front 5 which is their biggest problem and it won't matter a hill of beans how good your 10 is if you're on the backfoot. They can match others from 6-15 but from 1-5 I think they fall short. They have a tough AI tour.. SA, AUS and NZ. The rest have probably wisely gone for more tame matches perhaps knowing the lions series would meant battered bodies.

Scotland have to keep up with these teams and that's their challenge. Got to start expecting to win at home as a minimum but develop a big pack. Like Wales they have very good players but I still question their front row.

Its interesting anyhow. Think the RC may be a walk over. Argentina lets be honest are poor. Bad in SR, bad vs. a b/c ENG side. How can the 8th best team in the world not beat ENG b/c side at home.

Ireland's main weaknesses are strike power out wide, midfield depth, the occasional lineout blip and (sometimes) a tendency to be too narrow on defence. But it takes a good team to exploit those

lostinwales wrote:Ireland is a funny one. Not consistant. But the only team (outside of the Lions) to have got a win over the top two ranked teams over the last couple of years.

1st 1st 3rd and 2nd in the six nations is quite consistent.

Losing to two lower ranked teams yet still coming 2nd is weird. '17 was an odd one.

munkian wrote:Losing to two lower ranked teams yet still coming 2nd is weird. '17 was an odd one.

Odd is a little harsh. Basically, Italy were rubbish, and everyone else was strong at home, with England's narrow away win in Cardiff basically deciding things.

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:

munkian wrote:Losing to two lower ranked teams yet still coming 2nd is weird. '17 was an odd one.

Odd is a little harsh. Basically, Italy were rubbish, and everyone else was strong at home, with England's narrow away win in Cardiff basically deciding things.

Odd as in you had three teams with 3 wins and 2 losses - rather than a reflection on Ireland.

munkian wrote:

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:

munkian wrote:Losing to two lower ranked teams yet still coming 2nd is weird. '17 was an odd one.

Odd is a little harsh. Basically, Italy were rubbish, and everyone else was strong at home, with England's narrow away win in Cardiff basically deciding things.

Odd as in you had three teams with 3 wins and 2 losses - rather than a reflection on Ireland.

True dat

2015 with 3 teams finishing on 4 & 1 was pretty special too

Let's not forget Ireland started this 6 nations a bit slow too. Reminded me of the England-France 2014 game where one team got a significant lead then just about did enough to hold onto it against a stronger side on paper with home advantage being important.

That was also 1st game up too and similar scoreline.


1st game and last game - hold the most pressure IMO.


Tough openers for Ireland and Scotland next year.

Tough openers for England and Wales in 2019 to balance it out.

I love how this thread is now all about everyone except Scotland.

Gooseberry wrote:I love how this thread is now all about everyone except Scotland.

I mentioned Scotland having a tough opener next year.

It's spicy. Wales-Scotland. The build up has already started.

Both will feel they have a lot to play for. I think this year's win for Scotland and of course the controversial Lions selection by Gatland has ramped up the interest in this match.


It's interesting how rivalries go up and down - Wales-Scotland definitely on the rise.

A Scotland win would enhance this.

Stating the obvious but rivalries generally grow and build if not one sided!

Gooseberry wrote:I love how this thread is now all about everyone except Scotland.

Just like the Lions

beshocked wrote:It's interesting how rivalries go up and down - Wales-Scotland definitely on the rise.

Not for me it isn't. It might be for the Scottish, but not in Wales, Scotland have beaten us something like twice since 2007ish I think.

For me the biggest rivalry for Wales is Ireland followed by England.

beshocked wrote:

Gooseberry wrote:I love how this thread is now all about everyone except Scotland.

I mentioned Scotland having a tough opener next year.

It's spicy. Wales-Scotland. The build up has already started.

Both will feel they have a lot to play for. I think this year's win for Scotland and of course the controversial Lions selection by Gatland has ramped up the interest in this match.


It's interesting how rivalries go up and down - Wales-Scotland definitely on the rise.

A Scotland win would enhance this.

Stating the obvious but rivalries generally grow and build if not one sided!

No rivalry with Scotland, that takes years to develop. We've lost 1 in 10 and their fans have gotten overexcited is all.

We have a rivalry with England and Ireland which has formed over the years. France are a hopeless team but I see them as bigger rivals and I guess a lot of Welsh would as we feel they cheated in that match.

Perhaps but Scotland won the last encounter. Scotland are a team on the rise. No longer wooden spoon contenders.

Do you see Australia as a rival?

6th in the world for Scotland suggests they are a side not to be underestimated.

mikey_dragon wrote:

beshocked wrote:

Gooseberry wrote:I love how this thread is now all about everyone except Scotland.

I mentioned Scotland having a tough opener next year.

It's spicy. Wales-Scotland. The build up has already started.

Both will feel they have a lot to play for. I think this year's win for Scotland and of course the controversial Lions selection by Gatland has ramped up the interest in this match.


It's interesting how rivalries go up and down - Wales-Scotland definitely on the rise.

A Scotland win would enhance this.

Stating the obvious but rivalries generally grow and build if not one sided!

No rivalry with Scotland, that takes years to develop. We've lost 1 in 10 and their fans have gotten overexcited is all.

We have a rivalry with England and Ireland which has formed over the years. France are a hopeless team but I see them as bigger rivals and I guess a lot of Welsh would as we feel they cheated in that match.

There is no side I want Scotland to beat more than Wales. It is deeply personal for me!!!

Although I do want Wales to beat everyone else. It's proper love hate .

Lol Wales barely registers as a fly hitting the windscreen for the SH

beshocked wrote:Perhaps but Scotland won the last encounter. Scotland are a team on the rise. No longer wooden spoon contenders.

Do you see Australia as a rival?

Not really, they're probably more of a rival for England. We don't really have a rivalry with anyone outside of the NH, apart from Argentina for brief periods in history.

beshocked wrote:Perhaps but Scotland won the last encounter. Scotland are a team on the rise. No longer wooden spoon contenders.

So why are they not a rival for France, Ireland, England then ?

beshocked wrote:Do you see Australia as a rival?

No not really, perhaps when a WC comes around and they are in our way, but other than that, NO.

BamBam wrote:Lol Wales barely registers as a fly hitting the windscreen for the SH

Their recent record against SA is better than most, including England and Scotland .

beshocked wrote:Perhaps but Scotland won the last encounter. Scotland are a team on the rise. No longer wooden spoon contenders.

Do you see Australia as a rival?

6th in the world for Scotland suggests they are a side not to be underestimated.

You are as good as your last game and Scotland lost it to Fiji.

I'd say Wales and Ireland have had a fairly healthy rivalry over the last ten years, I wouldn't see Scotland as 'rivals'.

mikey_dragon wrote:

BamBam wrote:Lol Wales barely registers as a fly hitting the windscreen for the SH

Their recent record against SA is better than most, including England and Scotland .

1 win 1 draw in our last two games

1 win 1 loss for Wales

munkian wrote:

beshocked wrote:Perhaps but Scotland won the last encounter. Scotland are a team on the rise. No longer wooden spoon contenders.

Do you see Australia as a rival?

6th in the world for Scotland suggests they are a side not to be underestimated.

You are as good as your last game and Scotland lost it to Fiji.

I'd say Wales and Ireland have had a fairly healthy rivalry over the last ten years, I wouldn't see Scotland as 'rivals'.

To be fair though winning and losing isn't what makes a rivalry. It could be argued that Scotland now have a rivalry of sorts with Australia. The RWC controversy, beating them in Oz in our last 2 encounters 2 recent victories being decided by one point. I don't see them as rivals.

Wales on the other hand, the level of disrespect being shown by certain posters on here towards Scottish rugby just intensifies this game for me. I'll be in attendance down in Cardiff tanking pints of Brains and I really can't wait for this match.

Lorddowlais well both France and England beat Scotland in their last game and they both hold better records vs Scotland than Wales.

Not sure by about Ireland - I guess there would be more of a rivalry?

Scotland need to do a bit better vs England and France.

Really?

I thought SA lost their last game vs England - that's not great.


Scotland being bad in the past doesn't guarantee they'll be bad next year.


Have to be wary of Scotland in Murrayfield because Scotland are on the rise.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

munkian wrote:

beshocked wrote:Perhaps but Scotland won the last encounter. Scotland are a team on the rise. No longer wooden spoon contenders.

Do you see Australia as a rival?

6th in the world for Scotland suggests they are a side not to be underestimated.

You are as good as your last game and Scotland lost it to Fiji.

I'd say Wales and Ireland have had a fairly healthy rivalry over the last ten years, I wouldn't see Scotland as 'rivals'.

To be fair though winning and losing isn't what makes a rivalry. It could be argued that Scotland now have a rivalry of sorts with Australia. The RWC controversy, beating them in Oz in our last 2 encounters 2 recent victories being decided by one point. I don't see them as rivals.

Wales on the other hand, the level of disrespect being shown by certain posters on here towards Scottish rugby just intensifies this game for me. I'll be in attendance down in Cardiff tanking pints of Brains and I really can't wait for this match.

In my experience there is a spectacular amount of crowing from certain Scottish fans over one good win which then extended into some serious disrespect for the Lions. I'm looking forward to this game and hope we'll get back to the normal order of 10 years of spankings

munkian wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

munkian wrote:

beshocked wrote:Perhaps but Scotland won the last encounter. Scotland are a team on the rise. No longer wooden spoon contenders.

Do you see Australia as a rival?

6th in the world for Scotland suggests they are a side not to be underestimated.

You are as good as your last game and Scotland lost it to Fiji.

I'd say Wales and Ireland have had a fairly healthy rivalry over the last ten years, I wouldn't see Scotland as 'rivals'.

To be fair though winning and losing isn't what makes a rivalry. It could be argued that Scotland now have a rivalry of sorts with Australia. The RWC controversy, beating them in Oz in our last 2 encounters 2 recent victories being decided by one point. I don't see them as rivals.

Wales on the other hand, the level of disrespect being shown by certain posters on here towards Scottish rugby just intensifies this game for me. I'll be in attendance down in Cardiff tanking pints of Brains and I really can't wait for this match.

In my experience there is a spectacular amount of crowing from certain Scottish fans over one good win which then extended into some serious disrespect for the Lions. I'm looking forward to this game and hope we'll get back to the normal order of 10 years of spankings  

Better sack Gatland and bring in Dai Young then or something!

Nah in all seriousness it's a fixture I've always loved. As I said it's really personal for me and always holds more interest than Scotland vs England anyone else for that matter.

It's always helped by Cardiff and the Welsh rugby community (present company excluded of course ) being the best fans in the world. Ive been to Cardiff twice, once when Thom Evans had his neck broken and Patterson had a bruised Kidney when we were beaten in the last second of the match a gutter. The other being when Hogg stupidly and cynically smashed into Dan Biggar (I think) found himself red carded and we were absolutely prison shamed.

On Both occasions despite the soul destroying results the Welsh hosts were welcoming, friendly and great company in the boozers after the match. I'm hoping it will be the same when their team is defeated...