The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

First topic message reminder :

First article I came across on the Web.

O

I see Shane Williams has been sticking the boot into the Pro12 and it's conference system:-

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/guinness-pro12-revamp-become-ridiculous-13405827

Griff wrote:O

I didn't post this! Mods! There's a gremlin in the system!

LordDowlais wrote:I see Shane Williams has been sticking the boot into the Pro12 and it's conference system:-

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/guinness-pro12-revamp-become-ridiculous-13405827

I agree with his point about the coaches probably being annoyed as this affects their plans. Coaches will look at the fixture list, when international players are likely to be called up, when the European fixtures are played, and plan to target certain games, rest players for others, etc. However, I do not agree with him that this is putting fans off. He reckons that fans would be feeling disinterested because they don't know the fixture list. That's b*ll*cks, IMO. It makes no difference to me whether we get Munster in Novemeber or February, or March or September. It wouldn't put me off buying a ticket not knowing exactly when we'll play them. I know the conferences are coming in, but you've got to be a really fickle and p*ss poor fan if you walk about and do not support just because you don't know exactly when you'll be playing certain teams.

RDW_Scotland wrote:Seems strange to say of a man who guided us to a Heineken Cup semi, but he was an absolute disaster at Edinburgh.

Didn't realise how low you finished in those two seasons, 11th and 10th losing 15 games both seasons

Here is a bit more meat on the bone for this:-

The new Guinness PRO14: Conferences, format, number of fixtures and extra cash revealed

The newly expanded Guinness PRO14 have been revealed this morning, with two South African sides joining the cross-border competition.

The Bloemfontein-based Cheetahs and the Southern Kings of Port Elizabeth are coming on board, having been cut from the Super Rugby tournament.

It’s a money-spinning move that will see each of the existing 12 teams receiving an additional £500,000, with the event organisers covering the cost of travel to South Africa.

The 14 teams will be split into two conferences of seven, each featuring two Welsh sides, two Irish, one Scot, one Italian and one South African outfit.

Sides will play each other home and away in their own section and then the teams in the other group either home or away.

There will also be two additional rounds of derby matches, ensuring Welsh and Irish sides will retain six derbies each, as is the case now.

The Scottish, Italian and South African sides will play each other three times.

That will give everyone 21 regular season fixtures, with every game carrying league points.

The top three in each section will progress to end of season play-offs, which are to be extended to cover three weeks, with a quarter-final round ahead of semis and a grand final.

The winners of each conference will go straight through to the semis, with the other sides meeting in the quarters to try and book spots in the last four.

The top six will be joined by the fourth-placed team with most points in going through to the Champions Cup, with qualification now purely based on meritocracy.

Neither South African side can qualify for Europe.

The Ospreys and Cardiff Blues are together in one section, along with last season’s beaten finalists Munster, Glasgow, Connacht, Zebre and the Cheetahs.

Then in the other group, champions the Scarlets and the Dragons are joined by Leinster, Ulster, Edinburgh, Treviso and the Kings.

If teams have two away games in South Africa, the idea is for them to play them back-to-back, staying out in the country for a week.

And to think someone told me that anyone playing Dragons will get an easy ride to the play-offs... It turns it out it's the Scots and Saffa's getting an easy ride by playing the Italians more often.

mikey_dragon wrote:And to think someone told me that anyone playing Dragons will get an easy ride to the play-offs... It turns it out it's the Scots and Saffa's getting an easy ride by playing the Italians more often.

The teams from each individual countries will play each other 3 times i.e Glasgow v Edinburgh 3 times a season

mikey_dragon wrote:And to think someone told me that anyone playing Dragons will get an easy ride to the play-offs... It turns it out it's the Scots and Saffa's getting an easy ride by playing the Italians more often.

Aren't the Dragons a 3rd Italian team?

I think there will be a 3rd derbies between the Scots Saffas and Italians, so should be ok going by previous seasons results. The problem is if one of these is significantly worse than the other but expect Edinburgh to be stronger and Glasgow possibly a bit worse. Zebre could be a lot worse than Treviso though..

At last, i'm glad this has been confirmed. I'm waiting for the season to start with avidity now.

The one element that surprised me is that the conferences will change every year based on final positions

marty2086 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:And to think someone told me that anyone playing Dragons will get an easy ride to the play-offs... It turns it out it's the Scots and Saffa's getting an easy ride by playing the Italians more often.

The teams from each individual countries will play each other 3 times i.e Glasgow v Edinburgh 3 times a season

Well that's 15 points for Glasgow then, not including the extra points both will pick up against chumps Ulster.

mikey_dragon wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:And to think someone told me that anyone playing Dragons will get an easy ride to the play-offs... It turns it out it's the Scots and Saffa's getting an easy ride by playing the Italians more often.

The teams from each individual countries will play each other 3 times i.e Glasgow v Edinburgh 3 times a season

Well that's 15 points for Glasgow then, not including the extra points both will pick up against chumps Ulster.

Good to know

Sorted then. I've paid my season ticket money, get the fixtures published and play some bloody rugby..

marty2086 wrote:The one element that surprised me is that the conferences will change every year based on final positions

That's a good thing, in my opinion. Great news.

Griff wrote:

marty2086 wrote:The one element that surprised me is that the conferences will change every year based on final positions

That's a good thing, in my opinion.  Great news.

It could lead to a real imbalance though, Ulster have been told they will have 11 home games this season. Now if the conferences stay the same that can alternate year on year but if you switch up the conferences you may end up with a conference filled with teams who the previous season played 11 home games and you will have a handful getting consecutive years of 11 home games

Poor Ulster, always on the poopie end of fixtures

marty2086 wrote:

Griff wrote:

marty2086 wrote:The one element that surprised me is that the conferences will change every year based on final positions

That's a good thing, in my opinion.  Great news.

It could lead to a real imbalance though, Ulster have been told they will have 11 home games this season. Now if the conferences stay the same that can alternate year on year but if you switch up the conferences you may end up with a conference filled with teams who the previous season played 11 home games and you will have a handful getting consecutive years of 11 home games

But if they don't reorganize the conference each year based on finishing position then you could have a situation where, let's say, Ulster, Kings and Dragons become really poor which gives Leinster and Scarlets an easy ride to the play offs and to Europe. Meanwhile, over in the other conference they might all steadily improve making it a harder conference. And therefore a disparity between the conferences, which wouldn't be fair. Changing each year helps to smooth the conferences out for changes in the fortune of the teams in it. By basing it on league position we should get a roughly even strength of conference between the two.

Guinness PRO14 chiefs brand new competition an 'astonishing achievement' and a 'golden opportunity'

And South African newcomers insist the expansion is as exciting as the establishment of Super Rugby in 1996

Bringing two South African sides into a newly expanded Guinness PRO14 in the space of three months has been hailed as an “astonishing achievement”.

The Toyota Cheetahs and the Southern Kings will join the existing 12 teams for the coming season amid a radical revamp of the cross-border competition.


There will be two conferences of seven and a total of 21 regular season fixtures followed by three rounds of play-offs.

Today’s announcement is the culmination of weeks of frenetic activity behind the scenes to secure a deal that will bring in more than £6m from South Africa.

Guinness PRO14 chief executive Martin Anayi described it as an historic moment for the tournament as it begins the first phase of expansion.

“The arrival of the Toyota Cheetahs and the Southern Kings marks a bold and exciting new chapter for the Guinness PRO14 as a global rugby Championship,” he said.

“As a country, South Africa is a rugby powerhouse of over 55 million people. These teams already operate to the high standards demanded by Super Rugby and they will add to the quality of our tournament.

“Our Unions and World Rugby are committed to broadening the game and this move is evidence of our ambition to lead the way in growing the club game beyond our own borders, which in turn will unlock the true potential of this tournament.

“Expansion is in the DNA of the Championship and ever since the Celtic League kicked off in 2001 Cross Border competition has thrived.

“Being based across some of the most renowned hotbeds of rugby, the Championship has always been rife with international talent and last season we saw 270 internationals appear in the Guinness PRO12.

“Since then another 25 made their Test debuts in June while 27 of our players were on duty with the British & Irish Lions in New Zealand.

“This is a natural evolution for the Championship and not only will the calibre of the Toyota Cheetahs and the Southern Kings grow audiences, interest and the commercial base for the tournament and our clubs, it is a move that also lays the foundations for years to come.

“The appeal of professional club rugby has never been greater and we aim to be at the forefront of the game’s growth around the world.

“These are bold steps but the encouragement from our shareholder unions, our sponsors, our broadcasters and World Rugby – has shown that there is an appetite for innovation, fresh stories and new rivalries.

“The new tournament structure will also provide more teams with the opportunity to reach the Guinness PRO14 Final Series and that is fantastic news for our players, coaches and fans.

“To achieve this within three months is an astonishing achievement by everyone involved. I would like to thank Jurie Roux, CEO of SA Rugby, and his colleagues in South Africa for their hard work and vision.

“For everyone involved this is a golden opportunity to do something unique within the game of rugby and it is fantastic that they share the same ambitions as our unions and teams.

“Last season’s figures showed that we are the home of Positive Play and now the Guinness PRO14 will be one of the most unique and diverse rugby tournaments in the world.”

The full fixture list has been drafted, with rounds 1-13 will be confirmed next week after consultation with the broadcasters and clubs.

For those teams who are scheduled to play twice in South Africa, the aim will be for them to play back-to-back games on a ‘mini-tour’, with all matches in that country to be played on a Saturday.

Anayi continued: “Our clubs, players and coaches are already excited about the opportunity to play in South Africa in front of new crowds, new stadiums and take on these exciting new tests.

“From a logistical point of view, we know that travelling long distance will be nothing unusual to the South African sides, and indeed our core international players, but it is a new departure for our clubs.

“As such we have been in a dialogue with performance directors across all participating unions to ensure that player welfare is not compromised.

“We will work closely with travel partners to ensure that players are provided the best possible times and conditions when flying to and from South Africa to make sure their preparation is unaffected.

“In addition, we will welcome members of SA Rugby’s Premier Panel of full-time referees who will join our stable of elite officials. The 2017/18 season will bring the Guinness PRO14 to new destinations, create more competition and present more vibrancy than ever before on a journey we believe is only just beginning.”

SA Rugby chief executive Jurie Roux said the decision to accept an invitation to play in the northern hemisphere competition was a ground-breaking move that added a whole new dimension to the South African season.

“This development is as exciting as the launch of Super Rugby itself back in 1996,” he said. “It marks the start of a new adventure for rugby in South Africa with a number of exciting opportunities.

“It will not be without its challenges in aligning with a competition in a different part of the calendar and in very different playing conditions; but it is also a fantastic opportunity for South African rugby to widen our rugby horizons.

“This time next year South African provincial teams will be competing in 11 countries on five continents. We believe the Toyota Cheetahs’ and Kings’ participation will be good for the competition and good for the teams.”

Harold Verster, chief executive of the Toyota Cheetahs, believes both South African sides will be viewed as “trail blazers”.

“There will be a steep learning curve for our coaches and players but we’re in it to win it,” he said.

“This is a whole new ball game for rugby in South Africa and we’re proud to be trail blazers. There is a lot of excitement around the union about the opportunity and we’re already looking forward to kick off.

“We’re excited about taking the Toyota Cheetahs’ famous brand of all-out attacking rugby to Europe and bringing top European clubs to South Africa.

“The Free State is one of the great nurseries of rugby in South Africa and this is an exciting prospect for our young players – to test themselves against top players from the northern hemisphere.”

Andre Rademan, president of the Eastern Province Rugby Union, said: “We have been through tough times on and off the field over recent years but we now have the chance to reclaim our status as one of the powerhouses of South African rugby.

“The Southern Kings have been on an upward playing curve this season and there is much to be excited about. This team represents the heartlands of black rugby in South Africa – a tradition stretching back to the very establishment of the game in this country – and we will bring a unique passion and flavour to the tournament.”

World Rugby chairman Bill Beaumont added: “Following consideration of PRO14’s submission, including strategic goals and evaluation of the global rugby benefits, the World Rugby EXCO was unanimous in approving expansion.

“This approval was granted under the proviso that key strategic conditions will be met. This includes the implementation of a detailed player welfare plan, which we are delighted PRO14 are fully committed to. We look forward to the beginning of an exciting new chapter in the competition’s history.”

Griff wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Griff wrote:

marty2086 wrote:The one element that surprised me is that the conferences will change every year based on final positions

That's a good thing, in my opinion.  Great news.

It could lead to a real imbalance though, Ulster have been told they will have 11 home games this season. Now if the conferences stay the same that can alternate year on year but if you switch up the conferences you may end up with a conference filled with teams who the previous season played 11 home games and you will have a handful getting consecutive years of 11 home games

But if they don't reorganize the conference each year based on finishing position then you could have a situation where, let's say, Ulster, Kings and Dragons become really poor which gives Leinster and Scarlets an easy ride to the play offs and to Europe.  Meanwhile, over in the other conference they might all steadily improve making it a harder conference.  And therefore a disparity between the conferences, which wouldn't be fair.  Changing each year helps to smooth the conferences out for changes in the fortune of the teams in it.  By basing it on league position we should get a roughly even strength of conference between the two.

Damned if you do...

Griff wrote:If they don't reorganize the conference each year based on finishing position then you could have a situation where, let's say, Ulster, Kings and Dragons become really poor

I like this 'become'

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

Griff wrote:If they don't reorganize the conference each year based on finishing position then you could have a situation where, let's say, Ulster, Kings and Dragons become really poor

I like this 'become'

It was the 'really' bit that was key, Luckless! We're just poor at the moment!

marty2086 wrote:

Griff wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Griff wrote:

marty2086 wrote:The one element that surprised me is that the conferences will change every year based on final positions

That's a good thing, in my opinion.  Great news.

It could lead to a real imbalance though, Ulster have been told they will have 11 home games this season. Now if the conferences stay the same that can alternate year on year but if you switch up the conferences you may end up with a conference filled with teams who the previous season played 11 home games and you will have a handful getting consecutive years of 11 home games

But if they don't reorganize the conference each year based on finishing position then you could have a situation where, let's say, Ulster, Kings and Dragons become really poor which gives Leinster and Scarlets an easy ride to the play offs and to Europe.  Meanwhile, over in the other conference they might all steadily improve making it a harder conference.  And therefore a disparity between the conferences, which wouldn't be fair.  Changing each year helps to smooth the conferences out for changes in the fortune of the teams in it.  By basing it on league position we should get a roughly even strength of conference between the two.

Damned if you do...

Christ, what else can you find to moan about?! Is Martin Anayi's name too difficult to pronounce? Munster's grass too long? Some people will always find something to moan about.

.

Griff wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

Griff wrote:If they don't reorganize the conference each year based on finishing position then you could have a situation where, let's say, Ulster, Kings and Dragons become really poor

I like this 'become'

It was the 'really' bit that was key, Luckless!  We're just poor at the moment!

Not this season we're not

Griff wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Griff wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Griff wrote:

marty2086 wrote:The one element that surprised me is that the conferences will change every year based on final positions

That's a good thing, in my opinion.  Great news.

It could lead to a real imbalance though, Ulster have been told they will have 11 home games this season. Now if the conferences stay the same that can alternate year on year but if you switch up the conferences you may end up with a conference filled with teams who the previous season played 11 home games and you will have a handful getting consecutive years of 11 home games

But if they don't reorganize the conference each year based on finishing position then you could have a situation where, let's say, Ulster, Kings and Dragons become really poor which gives Leinster and Scarlets an easy ride to the play offs and to Europe.  Meanwhile, over in the other conference they might all steadily improve making it a harder conference.  And therefore a disparity between the conferences, which wouldn't be fair.  Changing each year helps to smooth the conferences out for changes in the fortune of the teams in it.  By basing it on league position we should get a roughly even strength of conference between the two.

Damned if you do...

Christ, what else can you find to moan about?!  Is Martin Anayi's name too difficult to pronounce?  Munster's grass too long? Some people will always find something to moan about.

It's grim up Norn

Griff wrote:Christ, what else can you find to moan about?! Is Martin Anayi's name too difficult to pronounce? Munster's grass too long? Some people will always find something to moan about.

He just likes a good old argument does marty.

If you said tomorrow was Wednesday he would find a whole load of stats to prove otherwise.

Griff wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Griff wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Griff wrote:

marty2086 wrote:The one element that surprised me is that the conferences will change every year based on final positions

That's a good thing, in my opinion.  Great news.

It could lead to a real imbalance though, Ulster have been told they will have 11 home games this season. Now if the conferences stay the same that can alternate year on year but if you switch up the conferences you may end up with a conference filled with teams who the previous season played 11 home games and you will have a handful getting consecutive years of 11 home games

But if they don't reorganize the conference each year based on finishing position then you could have a situation where, let's say, Ulster, Kings and Dragons become really poor which gives Leinster and Scarlets an easy ride to the play offs and to Europe.  Meanwhile, over in the other conference they might all steadily improve making it a harder conference.  And therefore a disparity between the conferences, which wouldn't be fair.  Changing each year helps to smooth the conferences out for changes in the fortune of the teams in it.  By basing it on league position we should get a roughly even strength of conference between the two.

Damned if you do...

Christ, what else can you find to moan about?!  Is Martin Anayi's name too difficult to pronounce?  Munster's grass too long? Some people will always find something to moan about.

Who's moaning?

Im pointing out there is a flaw in the organisation

I think this is goong to be very interesting, for South Africans it provides international provincial rugby year round now.

Biltong wrote:I think this is goong to be very interesting, for South Africans it provides international provincial rugby year round now.

If this kicks off, and starts running well, what does the future of ALL South African rugby hold ? It's no secret that the money is all in the NH, and that South Africa's TV money is propping up the SH game, if these two teams are a success, would South Africa want to put more teams in ? Would the national team then start wanting to be a part of the 6N ?

What noises are being made down there Bil ?

marty2086 wrote:

Griff wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Griff wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Griff wrote:

marty2086 wrote:The one element that surprised me is that the conferences will change every year based on final positions

That's a good thing, in my opinion.  Great news.

It could lead to a real imbalance though, Ulster have been told they will have 11 home games this season. Now if the conferences stay the same that can alternate year on year but if you switch up the conferences you may end up with a conference filled with teams who the previous season played 11 home games and you will have a handful getting consecutive years of 11 home games

But if they don't reorganize the conference each year based on finishing position then you could have a situation where, let's say, Ulster, Kings and Dragons become really poor which gives Leinster and Scarlets an easy ride to the play offs and to Europe.  Meanwhile, over in the other conference they might all steadily improve making it a harder conference.  And therefore a disparity between the conferences, which wouldn't be fair.  Changing each year helps to smooth the conferences out for changes in the fortune of the teams in it.  By basing it on league position we should get a roughly even strength of conference between the two.

Damned if you do...

Christ, what else can you find to moan about?!  Is Martin Anayi's name too difficult to pronounce?  Munster's grass too long? Some people will always find something to moan about.

Who's moaning?

Im pointing out there is a flaw in the organisation

I think the plan is to have the imbalance just for this season and next season USA/CAD teams join, making two conferences of 8, meaning everyone has an even number of home games.

LordDowlais wrote:

Biltong wrote:I think this is goong to be very interesting, for South Africans it provides international provincial rugby year round now.

If this kicks off, and starts running well, what does the future of ALL South African rugby hold ? It's no secret that the money is all in the NH, and that South Africa's TV money is propping up the SH game, if these two teams are a success, would South Africa want to put more teams in ? Would the national team then start wanting to be a part of the 6N ?

What noises are being made down there Bil ?

I have only heard rumours, but one of them is the Sharks are keen to go north. I read some poll in SA somewhere suggests 60% of voters in a poll said they want to see SA teams in European competitions.

I personally don't really know what to make of it yet.

If it helps our teams to retain more players becuase we make more money then I suppose it is a good thing, however if we are propping up the Super Rugby tournament and Super sport is adding more revenue to Euroepan teams I have to as myself why aren't we just focused on a 14 team Currie Cup competition?

On the other hand I suppose if it is successful the Pro 14 would or could dramatically increase revenue and with the SA market added broadcasting revenue couod perhaps start competing with the French or Aviva tournaments.

If we are going to keep playing in the Pro 14 and Super Rugby then I would suggest three teams per tournament.

I guess it is early days yet, we'll have to see how it goes

LordDowlais wrote:Guinness PRO14 chiefs brand new competition an 'astonishing achievement' and a 'golden opportunity'

And South African newcomers insist the expansion is as exciting as the establishment of Super Rugby in 1996

Bringing two South African sides into a newly expanded Guinness PRO14 in the space of three months has been hailed as an “astonishing achievement”.

The Toyota Cheetahs and the Southern Kings will join the existing 12 teams for the coming season amid a radical revamp of the cross-border competition.


There will be two conferences of seven and a total of 21 regular season fixtures followed by three rounds of play-offs.

Today’s announcement is the culmination of weeks of frenetic activity behind the scenes to secure a deal that will bring in more than £6m from South Africa.

Guinness PRO14 chief executive Martin Anayi described it as an historic moment for the tournament as it begins the first phase of expansion.

“The arrival of the Toyota Cheetahs and the Southern Kings marks a bold and exciting new chapter for the Guinness PRO14 as a global rugby Championship,” he said.

“As a country, South Africa is a rugby powerhouse of over 55 million people. These teams already operate to the high standards demanded by Super Rugby and they will add to the quality of our tournament.

“Our Unions and World Rugby are committed to broadening the game and this move is evidence of our ambition to lead the way in growing the club game beyond our own borders, which in turn will unlock the true potential of this tournament.

“Expansion is in the DNA of the Championship and ever since the Celtic League kicked off in 2001 Cross Border competition has thrived.

“Being based across some of the most renowned hotbeds of rugby, the Championship has always been rife with international talent and last season we saw 270 internationals appear in the Guinness PRO12.

“Since then another 25 made their Test debuts in June while 27 of our players were on duty with the British & Irish Lions in New Zealand.

“This is a natural evolution for the Championship and not only will the calibre of the Toyota Cheetahs and the Southern Kings grow audiences, interest and the commercial base for the tournament and our clubs, it is a move that also lays the foundations for years to come.

“The appeal of professional club rugby has never been greater and we aim to be at the forefront of the game’s growth around the world.

“These are bold steps but the encouragement from our shareholder unions, our sponsors, our broadcasters and World Rugby – has shown that there is an appetite for innovation, fresh stories and new rivalries.

“The new tournament structure will also provide more teams with the opportunity to reach the Guinness PRO14 Final Series and that is fantastic news for our players, coaches and fans.

“To achieve this within three months is an astonishing achievement by everyone involved. I would like to thank Jurie Roux, CEO of SA Rugby, and his colleagues in South Africa for their hard work and vision.

“For everyone involved this is a golden opportunity to do something unique within the game of rugby and it is fantastic that they share the same ambitions as our unions and teams.

“Last season’s figures showed that we are the home of Positive Play and now the Guinness PRO14 will be one of the most unique and diverse rugby tournaments in the world.”

The full fixture list has been drafted, with rounds 1-13 will be confirmed next week after consultation with the broadcasters and clubs.

For those teams who are scheduled to play twice in South Africa, the aim will be for them to play back-to-back games on a ‘mini-tour’, with all matches in that country to be played on a Saturday.

Anayi continued: “Our clubs, players and coaches are already excited about the opportunity to play in South Africa in front of new crowds, new stadiums and take on these exciting new tests.

“From a logistical point of view, we know that travelling long distance will be nothing unusual to the South African sides, and indeed our core international players, but it is a new departure for our clubs.

“As such we have been in a dialogue with performance directors across all participating unions to ensure that player welfare is not compromised.

“We will work closely with travel partners to ensure that players are provided the best possible times and conditions when flying to and from South Africa to make sure their preparation is unaffected.

“In addition, we will welcome members of SA Rugby’s Premier Panel of full-time referees who will join our stable of elite officials. The 2017/18 season will bring the Guinness PRO14 to new destinations, create more competition and present more vibrancy than ever before on a journey we believe is only just beginning.”

SA Rugby chief executive Jurie Roux said the decision to accept an invitation to play in the northern hemisphere competition was a ground-breaking move that added a whole new dimension to the South African season.

“This development is as exciting as the launch of Super Rugby itself back in 1996,” he said. “It marks the start of a new adventure for rugby in South Africa with a number of exciting opportunities.

“It will not be without its challenges in aligning with a competition in a different part of the calendar and in very different playing conditions; but it is also a fantastic opportunity for South African rugby to widen our rugby horizons.

“This time next year South African provincial teams will be competing in 11 countries on five continents. We believe the Toyota Cheetahs’ and Kings’ participation will be good for the competition and good for the teams.”

Harold Verster, chief executive of the Toyota Cheetahs, believes both South African sides will be viewed as “trail blazers”.

“There will be a steep learning curve for our coaches and players but we’re in it to win it,” he said.

“This is a whole new ball game for rugby in South Africa and we’re proud to be trail blazers. There is a lot of excitement around the union about the opportunity and we’re already looking forward to kick off.

“We’re excited about taking the Toyota Cheetahs’ famous brand of all-out attacking rugby to Europe and bringing top European clubs to South Africa.

“The Free State is one of the great nurseries of rugby in South Africa and this is an exciting prospect for our young players – to test themselves against top players from the northern hemisphere.”

Andre Rademan, president of the Eastern Province Rugby Union, said: “We have been through tough times on and off the field over recent years but we now have the chance to reclaim our status as one of the powerhouses of South African rugby.

“The Southern Kings have been on an upward playing curve this season and there is much to be excited about. This team represents the heartlands of black rugby in South Africa – a tradition stretching back to the very establishment of the game in this country – and we will bring a unique passion and flavour to the tournament.”

World Rugby chairman Bill Beaumont added: “Following consideration of PRO14’s submission, including strategic goals and evaluation of the global rugby benefits, the World Rugby EXCO was unanimous in approving expansion.

“This approval was granted under the proviso that key strategic conditions will be met. This includes the implementation of a detailed player welfare plan, which we are delighted PRO14 are fully committed to. We look forward to the beginning of an exciting new chapter in the competition’s history.”

Thanks for putting this up LD, really does add a lot of flavour to how things are set for the coming season.

Rounds 1 - 13 are set and are with the TV Broadcasters (presume that means they know the weekend but will flex kickoffs from Friday through Sunday).
Teams travelling away for both SA clubs get a mini-tour.

Leinster are only getting 10 home rounds this year (11 away games). The home/away split only arises on non-country specific inter-conference games. So for Leinster it would be Ospreys-Glasgow-Blues-Zebre-Cheetahs. Those 5 games will have to have a 2-3 split (home-away).

The cogs turn slowly on this. What would teams look for? What is somebodies preference is negotiating last/this week.
Do you want a mini-tour to SA every second year or one long trip once a year? I'd prefer a mini-tour every second year.
Do you want your extra home game this year? - If I'm a greedy club (like my own) and have supporters money already, I'd take the less home games this year and do some tripe kind of 'extra match ticket to a round of your choice' sh!te in order to maintain season ticket prices, then next year use the increased home games to scalp more money. Ah you can see it coming...

Then how does the refresh of conferences each season impact on the above (esp the first part). hmmm, might have to lay down.

I'm not sure about the recent noises being made in South Africa, but I imagine it's quite noisy.

thebandwagonsociety wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Guinness PRO14 chiefs brand new competition an 'astonishing achievement' and a 'golden opportunity'

And South African newcomers insist the expansion is as exciting as the establishment of Super Rugby in 1996

Bringing two South African sides into a newly expanded Guinness PRO14 in the space of three months has been hailed as an “astonishing achievement”.

The Toyota Cheetahs and the Southern Kings will join the existing 12 teams for the coming season amid a radical revamp of the cross-border competition.


There will be two conferences of seven and a total of 21 regular season fixtures followed by three rounds of play-offs.

Today’s announcement is the culmination of weeks of frenetic activity behind the scenes to secure a deal that will bring in more than £6m from South Africa.

Guinness PRO14 chief executive Martin Anayi described it as an historic moment for the tournament as it begins the first phase of expansion.

“The arrival of the Toyota Cheetahs and the Southern Kings marks a bold and exciting new chapter for the Guinness PRO14 as a global rugby Championship,” he said.

“As a country, South Africa is a rugby powerhouse of over 55 million people. These teams already operate to the high standards demanded by Super Rugby and they will add to the quality of our tournament.

“Our Unions and World Rugby are committed to broadening the game and this move is evidence of our ambition to lead the way in growing the club game beyond our own borders, which in turn will unlock the true potential of this tournament.

“Expansion is in the DNA of the Championship and ever since the Celtic League kicked off in 2001 Cross Border competition has thrived.

“Being based across some of the most renowned hotbeds of rugby, the Championship has always been rife with international talent and last season we saw 270 internationals appear in the Guinness PRO12.

“Since then another 25 made their Test debuts in June while 27 of our players were on duty with the British & Irish Lions in New Zealand.

“This is a natural evolution for the Championship and not only will the calibre of the Toyota Cheetahs and the Southern Kings grow audiences, interest and the commercial base for the tournament and our clubs, it is a move that also lays the foundations for years to come.

“The appeal of professional club rugby has never been greater and we aim to be at the forefront of the game’s growth around the world.

“These are bold steps but the encouragement from our shareholder unions, our sponsors, our broadcasters and World Rugby – has shown that there is an appetite for innovation, fresh stories and new rivalries.

“The new tournament structure will also provide more teams with the opportunity to reach the Guinness PRO14 Final Series and that is fantastic news for our players, coaches and fans.

“To achieve this within three months is an astonishing achievement by everyone involved. I would like to thank Jurie Roux, CEO of SA Rugby, and his colleagues in South Africa for their hard work and vision.

“For everyone involved this is a golden opportunity to do something unique within the game of rugby and it is fantastic that they share the same ambitions as our unions and teams.

“Last season’s figures showed that we are the home of Positive Play and now the Guinness PRO14 will be one of the most unique and diverse rugby tournaments in the world.”

The full fixture list has been drafted, with rounds 1-13 will be confirmed next week after consultation with the broadcasters and clubs.

For those teams who are scheduled to play twice in South Africa, the aim will be for them to play back-to-back games on a ‘mini-tour’, with all matches in that country to be played on a Saturday.

Anayi continued: “Our clubs, players and coaches are already excited about the opportunity to play in South Africa in front of new crowds, new stadiums and take on these exciting new tests.

“From a logistical point of view, we know that travelling long distance will be nothing unusual to the South African sides, and indeed our core international players, but it is a new departure for our clubs.

“As such we have been in a dialogue with performance directors across all participating unions to ensure that player welfare is not compromised.

“We will work closely with travel partners to ensure that players are provided the best possible times and conditions when flying to and from South Africa to make sure their preparation is unaffected.

“In addition, we will welcome members of SA Rugby’s Premier Panel of full-time referees who will join our stable of elite officials. The 2017/18 season will bring the Guinness PRO14 to new destinations, create more competition and present more vibrancy than ever before on a journey we believe is only just beginning.”

SA Rugby chief executive Jurie Roux said the decision to accept an invitation to play in the northern hemisphere competition was a ground-breaking move that added a whole new dimension to the South African season.

“This development is as exciting as the launch of Super Rugby itself back in 1996,” he said. “It marks the start of a new adventure for rugby in South Africa with a number of exciting opportunities.

“It will not be without its challenges in aligning with a competition in a different part of the calendar and in very different playing conditions; but it is also a fantastic opportunity for South African rugby to widen our rugby horizons.

“This time next year South African provincial teams will be competing in 11 countries on five continents. We believe the Toyota Cheetahs’ and Kings’ participation will be good for the competition and good for the teams.”

Harold Verster, chief executive of the Toyota Cheetahs, believes both South African sides will be viewed as “trail blazers”.

“There will be a steep learning curve for our coaches and players but we’re in it to win it,” he said.

“This is a whole new ball game for rugby in South Africa and we’re proud to be trail blazers. There is a lot of excitement around the union about the opportunity and we’re already looking forward to kick off.

“We’re excited about taking the Toyota Cheetahs’ famous brand of all-out attacking rugby to Europe and bringing top European clubs to South Africa.

“The Free State is one of the great nurseries of rugby in South Africa and this is an exciting prospect for our young players – to test themselves against top players from the northern hemisphere.”

Andre Rademan, president of the Eastern Province Rugby Union, said: “We have been through tough times on and off the field over recent years but we now have the chance to reclaim our status as one of the powerhouses of South African rugby.

“The Southern Kings have been on an upward playing curve this season and there is much to be excited about. This team represents the heartlands of black rugby in South Africa – a tradition stretching back to the very establishment of the game in this country – and we will bring a unique passion and flavour to the tournament.”

World Rugby chairman Bill Beaumont added: “Following consideration of PRO14’s submission, including strategic goals and evaluation of the global rugby benefits, the World Rugby EXCO was unanimous in approving expansion.

“This approval was granted under the proviso that key strategic conditions will be met. This includes the implementation of a detailed player welfare plan, which we are delighted PRO14 are fully committed to. We look forward to the beginning of an exciting new chapter in the competition’s history.”

Thanks for putting this up LD, really does add a lot of flavour to how things are set for the coming season.

Rounds 1 - 13 are set and are with the TV Broadcasters (presume that means they know the weekend but will flex kickoffs from Friday through Sunday).
Teams travelling away for both SA clubs get a mini-tour.

Leinster are only getting 10 home rounds this year (11 away games). The home/away split only arises on non-country specific inter-conference games.  So for Leinster it would be Ospreys-Glasgow-Blues-Zebre-Cheetahs. Those 5 games will have to have a 2-3 split (home-away).

The cogs turn slowly on this. What would teams look for? What is somebodies preference is negotiating last/this week.
Do you want a mini-tour to SA every second year or one long trip once a year? I'd prefer a mini-tour every second year.
Do you want your extra home game this year? - If I'm a greedy club (like my own) and have supporters money already, I'd take the less home games this year and do some tripe kind of 'extra match ticket to a round of your choice' sh!te in order to maintain season ticket prices, then next year use the increased home games to scalp more money. Ah you can see it coming...

Then how does the refresh of conferences each season impact on the above (esp the first part). hmmm, might have to lay down.

I think the tour every year is more exciting for a team and its supporters, players get to tour one week a year to SA for two matches. And the alternative year 1 match.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

Griff wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

Griff wrote:If they don't reorganize the conference each year based on finishing position then you could have a situation where, let's say, Ulster, Kings and Dragons become really poor

I like this 'become'

It was the 'really' bit that was key, Luckless!  We're just poor at the moment!

Not this season we're not

I did read Bernard Jackman say we are currently undefeated the other day

Biltong wrote:I have only heard rumours, but one of them is the Sharks are keen to go north. I read some poll in SA somewhere suggests 60% of voters in a poll said they want to see SA teams in European competitions.

Hmmmm, interesting.

So would you say it is not beyond the realms of fantasy to one day see South Africa jump into bed with the NH ?

I do not know how I feel about this myself either. We already have New Zealand shouting about getting a bigger slice of the pie when they tour up here, how much potential is there in Argentina ? Could they help fund SH rugby in the future ?

If I were a New Zealand or Australian rugby supporter I would start wondering about this, not quite yet worrying, but wondering none the less.

Some good Q&A's here in this link, I now it's WOL but I am not copying and pasting this lot:-

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/questions-you-bound-new-guinness-13414233

LordDowlais wrote:

Biltong wrote:I have only heard rumours, but one of them is the Sharks are keen to go north. I read some poll in SA somewhere suggests 60% of voters in a poll said they want to see SA teams in European competitions.

Hmmmm, interesting.

So would you say it is not beyond the realms of fantasy to one day see South Africa jump into bed with the NH ?

I do not know how I feel about this myself either. We already have New Zealand shouting about getting a bigger slice of the pie when they tour up here, how much potential is there in Argentina ? Could they help fund SH rugby in the future ?

If I were a New Zealand or Australian rugby supporter I would start wondering about this, not quite yet worrying, but wondering none the less.

The Argentinians are there to develop the game, so are the Japanese but they are also there because they can bring some big money to the table

It wouldnt look good if either of the SA sides win in their first year.

LordDowlais wrote:

Biltong wrote:I have only heard rumours, but one of them is the Sharks are keen to go north. I read some poll in SA somewhere suggests 60% of voters in a poll said they want to see SA teams in European competitions.

Hmmmm, interesting.

So would you say it is not beyond the realms of fantasy to one day see South Africa jump into bed with the NH ?

I do not know how I feel about this myself either. We already have New Zealand shouting about getting a bigger slice of the pie when they tour up here, how much potential is there in Argentina ? Could they help fund SH rugby in the future ?

If I were a New Zealand or Australian rugby supporter I would start wondering about this, not quite yet worrying, but wondering none the less.

The Aussies wants us out of Super Rugby, or some at least, New Zealand don't.

The future is uncertain at the moment, but Argentina doesn't throw enough money into their rugby development, their performances have been underwhelming, the Japanese team has been utterly disappointing.

But ARU believes that is the financial future, I doubt it.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:It wouldnt look good if either of the SA sides win in their first year.

A single game ? Even at home ?

GunsGermsV2 wrote:It wouldnt look good if either of the SA sides win in their first year.

at this stage you need not worry about that guns, the Cheetahs are losing three players to the Stormers already, untill they start making money to retain players they won't be able to compete at the top, the Kings are in the same boat, don't expect them to feature in the top half this season.

LordDowlais wrote:

Biltong wrote:I have only heard rumours, but one of them is the Sharks are keen to go north. I read some poll in SA somewhere suggests 60% of voters in a poll said they want to see SA teams in European competitions.

Hmmmm, interesting.

So would you say it is not beyond the realms of fantasy to one day see South Africa jump into bed with the NH ?

I do not know how I feel about this myself either. We already have New Zealand shouting about getting a bigger slice of the pie when they tour up here, how much potential is there in Argentina ? Could they help fund SH rugby in the future ?

If I were a New Zealand or Australian rugby supporter I would start wondering about this, not quite yet worrying, but wondering none the less.

Well it makes more sense for South Africans to travel to Britain and Ireland than to New Zealand or Australia. No jet lag and slightly shorter journey.

munkian wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:It wouldnt look good if either of the SA sides win in their first year.

A single game ? Even at home ?

No I meant win the tournament outright.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Biltong wrote:I have only heard rumours, but one of them is the Sharks are keen to go north. I read some poll in SA somewhere suggests 60% of voters in a poll said they want to see SA teams in European competitions.

Hmmmm, interesting.

So would you say it is not beyond the realms of fantasy to one day see South Africa jump into bed with the NH ?

I do not know how I feel about this myself either. We already have New Zealand shouting about getting a bigger slice of the pie when they tour up here, how much potential is there in Argentina ? Could they help fund SH rugby in the future ?

If I were a New Zealand or Australian rugby supporter I would start wondering about this, not quite yet worrying, but wondering none the less.

Well it makes more sense for South Africans to travel to Britain and Ireland than to New Zealand or Australia. No jet lag and slightly shorter journey.

You forgot about beer.

Biltong wrote:
The Aussies wants us out of Super Rugby, or some at least, New Zealand don't.

The future is uncertain at the moment, but Argentina doesn't throw enough money into their rugby development, their performances have been underwhelming, the Japanese team has been utterly disappointing.

But ARU believes that is the financial future, I doubt it.

How come the Aussies want you out?

Given their financial situation, surely they would be fighting to keep the SA teams to save themselves especially as Japan is such a gamble?

marty2086 wrote:

Biltong wrote:
The Aussies wants us out of Super Rugby, or some at least, New Zealand don't.

The future is uncertain at the moment, but Argentina doesn't throw enough money into their rugby development, their performances have been underwhelming, the Japanese team has been utterly disappointing.

But ARU believes that is the financial future, I doubt it.

How come the Aussies want you out?

Given their financial situation, surely they would be fighting to keep the SA teams to save themselves especially as Japan is such a gamble?

No-one said the Aussies were rational

They apparently had visions of a comp all played in good (for them) time zones to bring crowds back in, with much less travel (a big chunk of the SA TV money goes on getting teams to/from SA). Apparently they floated the idea to NZ, who (politely) asked what they were smoking. NZ doesn't want to lose the games vs SA for multiple reasons - money, exposure to different styles of rugby, better (mostly) opposition than Aus/Japan, ...

If NZ want better opposition why are they dodging Ireland and England in November? Sacred.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:If NZ want better opposition why are they dodging Ireland and England in November? Sacred.

That is how they see themselves