The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

by No 7&1/2 Mon 10 Jul 2017, 10:05 am

First topic message reminder :

First article I came across on the Web.

by GunsGermsV2 Tue 01 Aug 2017, 2:50 pm

Haha. I meant scared. Damn it.

by marty2086 Tue 01 Aug 2017, 2:58 pm

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
Biltong wrote:
The Aussies wants us out of Super Rugby, or some at least, New Zealand don't.

The future is uncertain at the moment, but Argentina doesn't throw enough money into their rugby development, their performances have been underwhelming, the Japanese team has been utterly disappointing.

But ARU believes that is the financial future, I doubt it.

How come the Aussies want you out?

Given their financial situation, surely they would be fighting to keep the SA teams to save themselves especially as Japan is such a gamble?

No-one said the Aussies were rational

They apparently had visions of a comp all played in good (for them) time zones to bring crowds back in, with much less travel (a big chunk of the SA TV money goes on getting teams to/from SA). Apparently they floated the idea to NZ, who (politely) asked what they were smoking. NZ doesn't want to lose the games vs SA for multiple reasons - money, exposure to different styles of rugby, better (mostly) opposition than Aus/Japan, ...

You think they would want the chance to win more than a few games a season, what was it this season? 25-0 against NZ franchises?

by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Tue 01 Aug 2017, 3:29 pm

marty2086 wrote:
Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
Biltong wrote:
The Aussies wants us out of Super Rugby, or some at least, New Zealand don't.

The future is uncertain at the moment, but Argentina doesn't throw enough money into their rugby development, their performances have been underwhelming, the Japanese team has been utterly disappointing.

But ARU believes that is the financial future, I doubt it.

How come the Aussies want you out?

Given their financial situation, surely they would be fighting to keep the SA teams to save themselves especially as Japan is such a gamble?

No-one said the Aussies were rational

They apparently had visions of a comp all played in good (for them) time zones to bring crowds back in, with much less travel (a big chunk of the SA TV money goes on getting teams to/from SA). Apparently they floated the idea to NZ, who (politely) asked what they were smoking. NZ doesn't want to lose the games vs SA for multiple reasons - money, exposure to different styles of rugby, better (mostly) opposition than Aus/Japan, ...

You think they would want the chance to win more than a few games a season, what was it this season? 25-0 against NZ franchises?

26-0. Not that I'm counting them off or anything Wink

32-0 since the Chiefs lost in Sydney in 2015

by marty2086 Tue 01 Aug 2017, 3:40 pm

Actually had 31-0 in my head, knew I got it from somewhere. I was forgetting the Brumbies got spanked in the quarters

by marty2086 Thu 03 Aug 2017, 12:10 pm

The South Africans are taking their participation in the newly minted Guinness PRO14 very, very seriously.

We have had four days to digest the news that the PRO12 is getting two new teams - the Cheetahs and Kings. The PRO14 is here.

PRO14 organisers unveiled the new league structure - including two conferences, 21 regular season games per team and a final six knock-out format - but the fixtures will not be released until next week. The league itself should kick off on September 2.

The South African Rugby Union has committed an initial £6m over six years to the competition and there will be further financial gains via TV and commercial deals.

SARU are not sending the Cheetahs and Kings into battle to make up the numbers. The project will falter if both franchises cop heavy beatings during their first seasons against the European sides.

Both sides have, due to their exit from Super Rugby and uncertainty over future plans, lost key players but a recruitment drive is in full swing. SARU are on the look-out for some top, Test-level talent and are willing to foot the bill.

Connacht captain John Muldoon told SportsJOE Live:

"I don't know if this is in the media but apparently the South African union has guaranteed there will be five internationals on both teams.

"It's definitely going to add a bit extra to the competition."

Looking at this season's Super Rugby squads, the Kings had three internationals but two represented Namibia. Waylon Murray was their only Springbok. The Cheetahs had four men that represented South Africa at Test level - Francois Venter, Uzair Cassien, Hilton Lobberts and Oupa Mohoje - and two Namibian internationals.

SARU will be seeking some marquee signings for each franchise and the prospect of playing in front of new, European audiences may prove tempting to some Test stars.

"From what we've been told," Muldoon added, "there's one or two of the other [so-called] bigger South African teams that are looking with interest to try and move over too because their contracts with Super Rugby are up in a season or two.

"It's certainly all positive and, by the sounds of things, there could be an American and Canadian team in it next year so I'll have to play in it next year if I want a trip over there."

Cheetahs and Kings may well prove to be the vanguard for the likes of the Lions, Bulls, Sharks and Stormers.

The South Africans appear to be taking the PRO14 as a stepping stone into the European market, with North American expansion on the horizon too.

Muldoon also revealed that Connacht are set to welcome the Kings in the second week of the season - September 9-10 - and visit South Africa next March to take on the Cheetahs.

by **Biltong** Thu 03 Aug 2017, 12:13 pm

That is very positive news if SARU are willing to help them in this crucnh time

by **Biltong** Thu 03 Aug 2017, 12:19 pm

Marty you have a link to that article mate?

by **RDW** Thu 03 Aug 2017, 12:22 pm

Interesting to hear talk of more SA teams joining and American expansion - what kind of league are we going to end up with in 2 to 3 years time??

by mikey_dragon Thu 03 Aug 2017, 12:30 pm

We could call it the Champions League, that way we can ensure no Franglo's join Smile

.

by marty2086 Thu 03 Aug 2017, 12:36 pm

Biltong wrote:Marty you have a link to that article mate?

https://www.sportsjoe.ie/rugby/exclusive-new-pro14-teams-boosted-least-five-test-stars-132510

by **Biltong** Thu 03 Aug 2017, 12:37 pm

Thanks marty

by marty2086 Thu 03 Aug 2017, 12:38 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:Interesting to hear talk of more SA teams joining and American expansion - what kind of league are we going to end up with in 2 to 3 years time??

Hopefully there is an eye on Georgia, Germany, Romania and Spain in the long term

by **RDW** Thu 03 Aug 2017, 12:40 pm

marty2086 wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:Interesting to hear talk of more SA teams joining and American expansion - what kind of league are we going to end up with in 2 to 3 years time??

Hopefully there is an eye on Georgia, Germany, Romania and Spain in the long term

Maybe a 2nd tier feeder league - it is starting to get silly (if it hasn't already) if those are added to the league too.

by **Biltong** Thu 03 Aug 2017, 12:42 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:Interesting to hear talk of more SA teams joining and American expansion - what kind of league are we going to end up with in 2 to 3 years time??

Hopefully there is an eye on Georgia, Germany, Romania and Spain in the long term

Maybe a 2nd tier feeder league - it is starting to get silly (if it hasn't already) if those are added to the league too.

Agree, a feeder tier two league is mich etter than having 47 teams from 79 countries competing in 798 conferences over 3 years cycles

by marty2086 Thu 03 Aug 2017, 12:46 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:Interesting to hear talk of more SA teams joining and American expansion - what kind of league are we going to end up with in 2 to 3 years time??

Hopefully there is an eye on Georgia, Germany, Romania and Spain in the long term

Maybe a 2nd tier feeder league - it is starting to get silly (if it hasn't already) if those are added to the league too.

A second tier is what I mean, with the money Ivanishvili is putting into Georgian rugby they could be a real force if some resources were focused into one professional team. It would force the weaker teams to kick on and hopefully raise the levels across the board

Developing the game elsewhere also creates new markets that can grow and be tapped into.

by **Biltong** Thu 03 Aug 2017, 12:51 pm

So are you guys excited about the inclusion of the SA teams?

by marty2086 Thu 03 Aug 2017, 12:55 pm

We're essentially a S. African team in Ulster anyway so it's nothing new Whistle

by **Biltong** Thu 03 Aug 2017, 12:57 pm

Hahaha, made up of "your" saffers?

by GunsGermsV2 Thu 03 Aug 2017, 1:10 pm

I like the idea of having the SA teams. Its an exciting change. Would like to go to Port Elizabeth too. not sure about Bloemfontein.

by **Biltong** Thu 03 Aug 2017, 1:25 pm

PE is dead mate, and it is windy, Bloemfontein is flat

by mikey_dragon Thu 03 Aug 2017, 1:27 pm

GunsGermsV2 wrote:I like the idea of having the SA teams. Its an exciting change. Would like to go to Port Elizabeth too. not sure about Bloemfontein.

Yeah I've never been to South Africa so it's something I'd like to do if a touring party can be arranged.

by **Biltong** Thu 03 Aug 2017, 1:30 pm

If you guys come as a group then book into the formula 1hotels, they are 3 to a room and dirt cheap.

Nothing fancy but cost effective sleep overs

by marty2086 Thu 03 Aug 2017, 1:33 pm

Biltong wrote:If you guys come as a group then book into the formula 1hotels, they are 3 to a room and dirt cheap.

Nothing fancy but cost effective sleep overs

What kind of shenanigans are you trying to engage us in here? Erm

by **Biltong** Thu 03 Aug 2017, 1:35 pm

Well, depends what shenanigans you like Smile

by **Biltong** Thu 03 Aug 2017, 1:36 pm

The alternative is you rent a house for a week and make it a golf tour, then watch both matches of your team

by GunsGermsV2 Thu 03 Aug 2017, 1:54 pm

Whatever happened to Johan Goosen Biltong? Will he come out of retirement, always thought he would be the SA 10 for many years. He is only 25.

by **Biltong** Thu 03 Aug 2017, 2:01 pm

I have no idea guns, laat I heard the Frnachman Bujalli or whatever his name is said Goosen will never play in Frnce again.

by marty2086 Thu 03 Aug 2017, 2:04 pm

Do you mean Mourad Biltong?

by **Biltong** Thu 03 Aug 2017, 2:06 pm

by marty2086 Thu 03 Aug 2017, 2:09 pm

Was he not the one said to be inducing Goosen to 'retire' to get away from Racing?

by **Biltong** Thu 03 Aug 2017, 2:15 pm

Yes, apparantly any club that signs Goosen will have to pay Racing a million euro, so he remains retired it seems til 2020

by marty2086 Thu 03 Aug 2017, 2:18 pm

It could be dragged out longer if Racing call for him to fulfil the full contract, not sure of the French law on it all though

by GunsGermsV2 Thu 03 Aug 2017, 2:22 pm

Its a waste of a very good player.

by **Biltong** Thu 03 Aug 2017, 2:28 pm

by mikey_dragon Thu 03 Aug 2017, 2:56 pm

Surely Paris isn't that bad?

by VinceWLB Thu 03 Aug 2017, 9:00 pm

Biltong wrote:So are you guys excited about the inclusion of the SA teams?

Very excited, considering Kings and Cheetahs glorious attacking styles..

Sadly it seems Kings will be weaker than in Super Rugby but i'm hearing Cheetahs could be a bit better.. Anyway, can't wait to get this underway.

by **Biltong** Thu 03 Aug 2017, 9:36 pm

VinceWLB wrote:
Biltong wrote:So are you guys excited about the inclusion of the SA teams?

Very excited, considering Kings and Cheetahs glorious attacking styles..

Sadly it seems Kings will be weaker than in Super Rugby but i'm hearing Cheetahs could be a bit better.. Anyway, can't wait to get this underway.

apparently SARU is ssisting in funding and recruiting at least 5 internationals per team, hopefully they succeed in finding players in such a short space of time

by VinceWLB Thu 03 Aug 2017, 9:48 pm

Biltong wrote:
VinceWLB wrote:
Biltong wrote:So are you guys excited about the inclusion of the SA teams?

Very excited, considering Kings and Cheetahs glorious attacking styles..

Sadly it seems Kings will be weaker than in Super Rugby but i'm hearing Cheetahs could be a bit better.. Anyway, can't wait to get this underway.
apparently SARU is ssisting in funding and recruiting at least 5 internationals per team, hopefully they succeed in finding players in such a short space of time

Great if true. I think SARU should block some of the transfers to the other SA teams that happened before the announcement was made.. Cronje going to a Japanese team is particularly irritating though as far as the Kings are concerned. Connacht have released Boshoff, i hope Kings sign him. He is the kind of player they should target, not quite international standard but would do the job all season long.

by Kingshu Fri 04 Aug 2017, 8:24 am

With over 100 players already in Europe the aim should be attracting some of these back. It won't annoy/weaken the other SA sides, the players will already have European experience, and used to the European calendar. Maybe they will not get the very best back, there a plenty of very good palyers with a few caps, that could be tempted back. The likes of Marnitz Boshoff, Franco van der Merwe etc

by **Biltong** Fri 04 Aug 2017, 8:30 am

Yeah they won't get the expensive players back, not enough revenue yet, but if this becomes successful there should be more revenue in future which might mean the pro14 can compete with salaries from France and England

by GunsGermsV2 Fri 04 Aug 2017, 9:06 am

Biltong wrote:PE is dead mate, and it is windy, Bloemfontein is flat

Looked Port Elizabeth up and it looks decent. Near Jefferies Bay which I have heard is good for surfing (and sharks).

by GunsGermsV2 Fri 04 Aug 2017, 9:08 am

Biltong wrote:Yeah they won't get the expensive players back, not enough revenue yet, but if this becomes successful there should be more revenue in future which might mean the pro14 can compete with salaries from France and England

I think there should be salary caps enforced by the ERC that are the same across all Euro leagues.

by marty2086 Fri 04 Aug 2017, 9:10 am

GunsGermsV2 wrote:
Biltong wrote:Yeah they won't get the expensive players back, not enough revenue yet, but if this becomes successful there should be more revenue in future which might mean the pro14 can compete with salaries from France and England

I think there should be salary caps enforced by the ERC that are the same across all Euro leagues.

ERC have no authority over the leagues though, they aren't a governing body they are a competition organiser

by mikey_dragon Fri 04 Aug 2017, 9:21 am

Kingshu wrote:With over 100 players already in Europe the aim should be attracting some of these back. It won't annoy/weaken the other SA sides, the players will already have European experience, and used to the European calendar. Maybe they will not get the very best back, there a plenty of very good palyers with a few caps, that could be tempted back. The likes of Marnitz Boshoff, Franco van der Merwe etc

Franco will probably retire in a year or 2? The amount of nasty SA lock forwards in France in ridiculous though, maybe the SARU should start there.

by thebandwagonsociety Fri 04 Aug 2017, 10:01 am

Biltong wrote:Yeah they won't get the expensive players back, not enough revenue yet, but if this becomes successful there should be more revenue in future which might mean the pro14 can compete with salaries from France and England

Bil, will the two clubs have to meet the quota requirements? If so would that limit the number of players they could 'get back' from the NH?

by RugbyFan100 Fri 04 Aug 2017, 10:26 am

Biltong wrote:Yeah they won't get the expensive players back, not enough revenue yet, but if this becomes successful there should be more revenue in future which might mean the pro14 can compete with salaries from France and England

With the South African sides now on board, in terms of television income there is a funding shortfall from Pro14 to Top14 of £59m. That's £59m more that the teams in the French league get funded per year, than the Pro14 teams. Before the SA teas joined the gap was £65m. So it's going in the right direction, but I don't see a day when the Pro14 competes with the big boys.

by Welshmushroom Fri 04 Aug 2017, 10:35 am

mikey_dragon wrote:
Kingshu wrote:With over 100 players already in Europe the aim should be attracting some of these back. It won't annoy/weaken the other SA sides, the players will already have European experience, and used to the European calendar. Maybe they will not get the very best back, there a plenty of very good palyers with a few caps, that could be tempted back. The likes of Marnitz Boshoff, Franco van der Merwe etc

Franco will probably retire in a year or 2? The amount of nasty SA lock forwards in France in ridiculous though, maybe the SARU should start there.

I think with so many players contracted to European Teams already I doubt they will get anyone of value to come back in time for this season. So as far as I can tell they either move players from the other franchises which would devalue the S15 (so that's unlikely) or they take a punt on curry cup players.

The biggest issue from what I can tell both sides will struggle with is they are already coming out of a tough season with a very short preseason. I've no doubt they will be entertaining by the time Mar/Apr/May months arrive but I reckon by that point they will already be out of qualification run in. I hope I'm wrong on this but just looking at the other sides preseason preparation and the sheer amount of international talent they have available it's going to be mission impossible to break into each conferences top 3 spots. That said South Africa does well when they are written off and I hope they do. Realistically I would have thought finishing above Edinburgh, Dragons, Zebre & Treviso would constitute a successful transition for them this year.

by Luckless Pedestrian Fri 04 Aug 2017, 10:38 am

by **Biltong** Fri 04 Aug 2017, 10:46 am

thebandwagonsociety wrote:
Biltong wrote:Yeah they won't get the expensive players back, not enough revenue yet, but if this becomes successful there should be more revenue in future which might mean the pro14 can compete with salaries from France and England

Bil, will the two clubs have to meet the quota requirements? If so would that limit the number of players they could 'get back' from the NH?

Yes mate they have to, it won't limit the players they get back though, but by 2019 the representation must be 50%

by marty2086 Fri 04 Aug 2017, 10:56 am

RugbyFan100 wrote:
Biltong wrote:Yeah they won't get the expensive players back, not enough revenue yet, but if this becomes successful there should be more revenue in future which might mean the pro14 can compete with salaries from France and England

With the South African sides now on board, in terms of television income there is a funding shortfall from Pro14 to Top14 of £59m. That's £59m more that the teams in the French league get funded per year, than the Pro14 teams. Before the SA teas joined the gap was £65m. So it's going in the right direction, but I don't see a day when the Pro14 competes with the big boys.

Populations
Ireland 6.584m
Wales 3.063m
Scotland 5.295m
Italy 60.6m
Bloemfontain & P. Elizabeth 1.556m
Total 77.098m

England53.01m

France66.9m

The Pro14 has a bigger population to work with than the other leagues so theres plenty of reason to think that the gap can be closed at a good rate. With the current tv deals in the UK coming up for renegotiating the league is more valuable to Sky than ever before because they've lost the ERCC, they will also have competition from Eir Sports who have said they are interested in the rights, plus TV3 have been buying up the rugby rights in Ireland for everything else.

The Top14 is getting such a great deal because of how rugby has grown there, that's why Italy is important and needs to be worked on. If it can take off there that could be a big market for the league.

Factor in the AP tv deal is a bubble that will burst due to BT over paying to out do Sky. BT have been making cuts in different areas due to the amounts they have spent and the lack of return on the investment. The money for the AP could drop or stagnate making it easier to catch them.[/b]

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