The Open Championship 2017

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Round 4 Tee Times
07:55 Danny Willett
08:05 Sung-hoon Kang, Aaron Baddeley
08:15 Thorbjorn Olesen, Sean O'Hair
08:25 Russell Henley, Kevin Kisner
08:35 Bernd Wiesberger, Charl Schwartzel
08:45 Mike Lorenzo-Vera, Webb Simpson
08:55 Kent Bulle, Laurie Canter
09:05 Soren Kjeldsen, J.B. Holmes
09:15 Martin Kaymer, Jimmy Walker
09:25 Daniel Berger, Xander Schauffele
09:40 James Hahn, Joseph Dean
09:50 Toby Tree, Andy Sullivan
10:00 Lee Westwood, Young-Han Song
10:10 Justin Rose, Gary Woodland
10:20 Yi-Keun Chang , Adam Scott
10:30 Jon Rahm, Andrew Dodt
10:40 KT Kim, Peter Uihlein
10:50 Alfie Plant, Brandon Stone
11:00 Charley Hoffman, Zach Johnson
11:10 Thomas Pieters, Bubba Watson
11:25 Ernie Els, Haotong Li
11:35 Steve Stricker, Kevin Na
11:45 Chris Wood, Thongchai Jaidee
11:55 Matthew Southgate, David Drysdale
12:05 Marc Leishman, Tommy Fleetwood
12:15 Jamie Lovemark, Joost Luiten
12:25 Sergio Garcia, Matthew Fitzpatrick
12:35 Andrew Johnston, Paul Casey
12:45 Tony Finau, Jason Dufner
12:55 Jason Day, Scott Hend
13:10 Shaun Norris, Richard Bland
13:20 Alex Noren, Rickie Fowler
13:30 Ian Poulter, Richie Ramsay
13:40 Rory McIlroy, Ross Fisher
13:50 Rafael Cabrera-Bello, Chan Kim
14:00 Henrik Stenson, Dustin Johnson
14:10 Hideki Matsuyama, Branden Grace
14:20 Brooks Koepka, Austin Connelly
14:30 Matt Kuchar, Jordan Spieth

Davie wrote:

super_realist wrote:

Davie wrote:

super_realist wrote:

He's slow whether he's a bible bashing loon or a logical thinking scientist. That's not even up for debate.

So why mention it? I'm going to lay down a challenge to you. He may be a "christian" - whatever that means - but I've never seen him give a presser where he mentions it to any great extent - apart perhaps from where he is directly asked about it.

So your challenge is find me a YouTube clip - or even a written word article - to back up your hysteria over him.  I'm no fan of bible bashers either but I just don't see it with him.

I'll be waiting....

I don't have to find anything Davie.

No you don't. You can just keep on banging on with no basis in fact or proof. Wasn't it you who kept pestering Mac for "proof" of what he was claiming?

You are right. You don't have to find anything - but without backing up what you are trying to say it just makes you sound even more pathetic than usual

When something is common knowledge, like his "faith", why would I have to constantly back it up with "evidence"? It's accepted fact, I don't have to constantly cite anything to support it. Can you imagine how long it would take to say anything if you had to back up common knowledge with scores of citations?

McLaren wrote:For a world famous athlete Spieth seems like a pretty OK guy, and is hardly the most vociferous bible basher. Is he even old enough to have the life experience to abandon a childhood religion?

As a fan of golf I will happily take a guy like Spieth at the top of the game.

It's rare Mac, but

super_realist wrote:
When something is common knowledge, like his "faith", why would I have to constantly back it up with "evidence"?  It's accepted fact, I don't have to constantly cite anything to support it. Can you imagine how long it would take to say anything if you had to back up common knowledge with scores of citations?

But that's my point - it's NOT common knowledge - at least not to me. I've never heard him bang on about it except once mentioned in passing in direct response to a question. That's why I asked for evidence which you clearly can't bring to the table - because it doesn't exist?

Why has religion even been brought into this? It is irrelevant, its not been brought by the winner or the runner up, as far as I am aware. So why the chuff has it been mentioned on here. It was used a stick to denigrate the winner, for no phucking reason. Arent we all meant to be adults?

Davie wrote:

super_realist wrote:
When something is common knowledge, like his "faith", why would I have to constantly back it up with "evidence"?  It's accepted fact, I don't have to constantly cite anything to support it. Can you imagine how long it would take to say anything if you had to back up common knowledge with scores of citations?

But that's my point - it's NOT common knowledge - at least not to me. I've never heard him bang on about it except once mentioned in passing in direct response to a question. That's why I asked for evidence which you clearly can't bring to the table - because it doesn't exist?

When did I say he ever banged on about it? Doesn't change the fact he is one. All I said was that he was Kevin Na with a Bible.

For goodness sake, talk about an over-reaction Davie.

super_realist wrote:

For goodness sake, talk about an over-reaction Davie.

I couldn't agree more Super - get over it

super_realist wrote:
For goodness sake, talk about an over-reaction.

Super - If you admit that you over reacted, why are you still going on about it?

You Brits are knowledgeable golf fans:

Golf Fan letter:

I would suspect that that is a wind up GPB.

Jim Bowen is a well known 1980's comedian and game show host. This would seem like satire and irony. Something America is not traditionally good at getting.

super_realist wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:

super_realist wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:

beninho wrote:He is slow, they were already a hole behind the Koepka/ Connolly group before he the fun and games on the 13th.

What commentator said he was fast?

They were both, Spieth in particular, playing pretty poorly. Of course they were taking more time. They were the only two really in it, playing for The Open and nearly $2m for first place in prize money alone.

Speith is NEVER quick. He's Kevin Na with a bible.

Another :yawn:. You're missing the point of my post and a Bible is not remotely relevant here.

I didn't miss the point. Whether Spieth is in pole position or stinking the house out in last place, he's slower than a snail on crutches. The significance of the occasion on Sunday is of no bearing. He's never quick and never has been.

I accept that, but you're still missing the point. Ben was talking about Sunday, specifically, and I suggested that the reason was not simply Spieth being slow, but the fact he was stinking the place out. Anyone would be slower than the norm playing like that. The significance of Spieth's playing standard on Sunday, up to the 13th, has every bearing on their pace of play.

raycastleunited wrote:

pedro wrote:Birkdale was relatively short, a second shot course. Spieth may find his limitations on longer courses, where he's forced to pull out his driver more often. I'm not saying he can't play long courses but his results seem to indicate he's doing relatively better on shorter courses, eg. Colonial, Pebble Beach, John Deere. Dunno, is there a trend / correlation?

Maybe it's because the shorter a course is, the more it becomes a putting competition, which plays to Spieth's strengths. Longer courses provide more test of ball striking / driving where he doesn't excel. Although let's be fair, Spieth is no short hitter - he's added distance to his drives since he first came on the scene.

Quite. He may not be DJ or McIlroy, but he gets it out there more than enough to compete on any track they play at.

GPB wrote:You Brits are knowledgeable golf fans:

Golf Fan letter:

We have our share of the intellectually challenged too...

navyblueshorts wrote:

super_realist wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:

super_realist wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:

beninho wrote:He is slow, they were already a hole behind the Koepka/ Connolly group before he the fun and games on the 13th.

What commentator said he was fast?

They were both, Spieth in particular, playing pretty poorly. Of course they were taking more time. They were the only two really in it, playing for The Open and nearly $2m for first place in prize money alone.

Speith is NEVER quick. He's Kevin Na with a bible.

Another :yawn:. You're missing the point of my post and a Bible is not remotely relevant here.

I didn't miss the point. Whether Spieth is in pole position or stinking the house out in last place, he's slower than a snail on crutches. The significance of the occasion on Sunday is of no bearing. He's never quick and never has been.

I accept that, but you're still missing the point. Ben was talking about Sunday, specifically, and I suggested that the reason was not simply Spieth being slow, but the fact he was stinking the place out. Anyone would be slower than the norm playing like that. The significance of Spieth's playing standard on Sunday, up to the 13th, has every bearing on their pace of play.

I still don't think you're right, not like they caught up the rest when he started playing well again. Of course if you're playing fewer shots, you will appear to be quicker, but he's not a quick player by any means, he's slow, ponderous and deliberate, which is why I think people like him, Na, Harrington etc are bloody boring to watch.
If anything, Spieth was probably slower than his usual glacial pace because he was so bad, perhaps waiting for some divine intervention?

super_realist wrote:I would suspect that that is a wind up GPB.

Jim Bowen is a well known 1980's comedian and game show host. This would seem like satire and irony. Something America is not traditionally good at getting.

Jim BowenS however is probably a guy from Sidmouth who genuinely thought they were boos. I did when I first heard "Luuuuuuuke" which was in a US tournament where it would have been a similar scenario to Kuuuuuuuuch being in the UK. Although a commentator cleared that up at the time.

If the letter is a pi55 take, I'm not sure that there's a huge amount of golfists or aficionados of 70's club and 80's television comedic presenters that would spot it, the venn diagram would have a pretty small overlap in the middle. That said, either way it wasn't really worth writing a letter to anyone about!!!

The sort of person that may write to a newspaper, is probably the sort of person that would complain in the belief that golfers were being booed by the fans.

super_realist wrote:
Jim Bowen is a well known 1980's comedian and game show host. This would seem like satire and irony. Something America is not traditionally good at getting.

Thanks for the strawman argument.

Now, can you tell me who Jim Bowens is?

It's not a strawman, you're just annoyed that it's a Brit "in" joke that you've mistaken for being a genuine letter, but the letter looked like it came straight out of Viz.

I have trouble believing that was a genuine letter of someone actually believing he was being booed.

It was the Daily Express, Jim is probably still upset over the death of Diana, and frothing at the mouth at any potential slow down of brexit. I actually believe he is a real person.

Dang, Super, you are really uptight. You must be the life of any party you go to.

Maybe it would help if GPB identified where the clipping came from? I agree it's a bit like a Viz comic extract, but not really funny enough to be satire. I wouldn't be surprised if it was genuine

Wow... what an Open !!!!

The Drop - Maybe the range should have been marked OB... maybe it shouldn't. Just like maybe Seve's carpark should have been marked OB... maybe it shouldn't.  But the fact remains it wasn't.  The credit goes to Spieth recognizing his options and selecting the best one.  I saw John Paramor right there overseeing things, and he's certainly no pushover to get a favorable drop, so if it's OK with him, then it's OK with me...

Pace of play - Yeah, Spieth ain't no speed racer, but he's faster than he used to be, cuz he realized it was probably hurting him more than helping him (except on the greens where he still takes his time). But to compare him to a Crane, Na or Padraig is laughable to the extreme.  Compared to them Spieth is Usain Bolt. And GPB makes a valid point... the maximum pace of play goes at the speed of the slowest player up ahead. I feel sorry for the really fast guys (I'm one myself), but as long as they keep pace, everything's OK with me. Granted, Spieth and Kuch were behind BEFORE the #13 deal... and the right thing was done... they were warned. And if Jordan would have gotten bad times thereafter, I wouldn't have argued any penalty issued.

Speaking of... it did seem that Spieth was playing at a regular lightning pace from 13 on.  I don't know if they were officially on the clock at that point... but he was clearly playing faster, almost like he couldn't wait to hit his next shot.  But granted, it don't take long to play 16 shots over the last 5 holes of Birkdale... "Holy" crap.  

Speaking of Holy - How Spieth's Open win gets turned into another imbecilic religion debate is beyond me.  When Spieth starts thanking Jesus or pointing to the heavens after every made putt... then get back to me. Otherwise... ridiculous to the max.

Bottom line... I've seen some incredible finishes in my time... and some incredible turnarounds, but most of the turnarounds the WRONG way.  I made a comment elsewhere after Jordan hit the tee shot on #13 that he "seriously needed to get his head out of his a**s"....  Wow, who'd have thought he was capable of doing so to that extent.

And gutted for Kuchar... the guy didn't lose it, he played admirable. But like discussed here before the start of this thing... he is what he is.... not a guy that shows a penchant for taking it up a notch when the pressure's on. Hated he had to sit through that deal on #13, but it's not like he was exactly tearing it up at that point and having his momentum halted either. No question the reset HELPED Spieth, but from my view from the cheap seats, Kuch wasn't negatively affected at all, in fact he actually started playing better after the break himself.  So yeah, Koooooch didn't lose it, but by not putting any pressure on Spieth himself he didn't do enough to win it either... and that's on him.  

Anyway.... sure wasn't looking like it going into the back nine, but this one will go down as one of the most memorable and talked about Open's ever... and for about 98% of the RIGHT reasons... fan of Spieth or not, that was one HELLUVA terrific and memorable performance by the guy. Well played.

robopz wrote:
Speaking of Holy - How Spieth's Open win gets turned into another imbecilic religion debate is beyond me.  When Spieth starts thanking Jesus or pointing to the heavens after every made putt... then get back to me. Otherwise... ridiculous to the max.

Great summary Robo.

beninho wrote:It was the Daily Express, Jim is probably still upset over the death of Diana, and frothing at the mouth at any potential slow down of brexit. I actually believe he is a real person.

You do realise that newspapers are prone to making up their own letters right?

super_realist wrote:

beninho wrote:It was the Daily Express, Jim is probably still upset over the death of Diana, and frothing at the mouth at any potential slow down of brexit. I actually believe he is a real person.

You do realise that newspapers are prone to making up their own letters right?

Fake news. Planted by the Russians - probably Kafelnikov

super_realist wrote:

beninho wrote:It was the Daily Express, Jim is probably still upset over the death of Diana, and frothing at the mouth at any potential slow down of brexit. I actually believe he is a real person.

You do realise that newspapers are prone to making up their own letters right?

So to clarify, you believe that the Daily Express printed a made up letter from a guy who thought that golf fans were booing Matt Kuchar? And they used the name Jim Bowens, as an in joke for people that were big fans of the Comedians in the 70's and Bullseye in the 80's?

robopz wrote:Wow... what an Open !!!!

The Drop - Maybe the range should have been marked OB... maybe it shouldn't. Just like maybe Seve's carpark should have been marked OB... maybe it shouldn't.  But the fact remains it wasn't.  The credit goes to Spieth recognizing his options and selecting the best one.  I saw John Paramor right there overseeing things, and he's certainly no pushover to get a favorable drop, so if it's OK with him, then it's OK with me...

Pace of play - Yeah, Spieth ain't no speed racer, but he's faster than he used to be, cuz he realized it was probably hurting him more than helping him (except on the greens where he still takes his time). But to compare him to a Crane, Na or Padraig is laughable to the extreme.  Compared to them Spieth is Usain Bolt. And GPB makes a valid point... the maximum pace of play goes at the speed of the slowest player up ahead. I feel sorry for the really fast guys (I'm one myself), but as long as they keep pace, everything's OK with me. Granted, Spieth and Kuch were behind BEFORE the #13 deal... and the right thing was done... they were warned. And if Jordan would have gotten bad times thereafter, I wouldn't have argued any penalty issued.

Speaking of... it did seem that Spieth was playing at a regular lightning pace from 13 on.  I don't know if they were officially on the clock at that point... but he was clearly playing faster, almost like he couldn't wait to hit his next shot.  But granted, it don't take long to play 16 shots over the last 5 holes of Birkdale... "Holy" crap.  

Speaking of Holy - How Spieth's Open win gets turned into another imbecilic religion debate is beyond me.  When Spieth starts thanking Jesus or pointing to the heavens after every made putt... then get back to me. Otherwise... ridiculous to the max.

Bottom line... I've seen some incredible finishes in my time... and some incredible turnarounds, but most of the turnarounds the WRONG way.  I made a comment elsewhere after Jordan hit the tee shot on #13 that he "seriously needed to get his head out of his a**s"....  Wow, who'd have thought he was capable of doing so to that extent.

And gutted for Kuchar... the guy didn't lose it, he played admirable. But like discussed here before the start of this thing... he is what he is.... not a guy that shows a penchant for taking it up a notch when the pressure's on. Hated he had to sit through that deal on #13, but it's not like he was exactly tearing it up at that point and having his momentum halted either. No question the reset HELPED Spieth, but from my view from the cheap seats, Kuch wasn't negatively affected at all, in fact he actually started playing better after the break himself.  So yeah, Koooooch didn't lose it, but by not putting any pressure on Spieth himself he didn't do enough to win it either... and that's on him.  

Anyway.... sure wasn't looking like it going into the back nine, but this one will go down as one of the most memorable and talked about Open's ever... and for about 98% of the RIGHT reasons... fan of Spieth or not, that was one HELLUVA terrific and memorable performance by the guy. Well played.

Great post Robo. Good points, well made.

Such a good post that I had to read it 2 or 3 times - because we are duty bound on this side of the pond to find something to get uppity about (pi55ed would be a rough approximation) and thus far no-one has...

It's "hell of a" not "helluva"!

(NB - the last 2 lines were a joke)

As Roller said, I find it completely unacceptable that an American writes a lengthy post on this board and nobody complains about it. So I'm going to have to find something to criticise.

It should be "Kuchar played admirably" not "admirable", because it's an adverb not an adjective. That's all I've got.

Liked the article though.

beninho wrote:

super_realist wrote:

beninho wrote:It was the Daily Express, Jim is probably still upset over the death of Diana, and frothing at the mouth at any potential slow down of brexit. I actually believe he is a real person.

You do realise that newspapers are prone to making up their own letters right?

So to clarify, you believe that the Daily Express printed a made up letter from a guy who thought that golf fans were booing Matt Kuchar? And they used the name Jim Bowens, as an in joke for people that were big fans of the Comedians in the 70's and Bullseye in the 80's?

I would think that they didn't do it for the fans of 70's Men's Club comedians but that the name was just picked out of thin air.

I can't believe that someone would be A) Stupid enough to think it was a boo. B) Sad enough to write in to a national newspaper.

Newspapers make stuff up all the time.

Yeah. Imagine if someone called in complaining over the expression 'luck of the irish'...

pedro wrote:Yeah. Imagine if someone called in complaining over the expression 'luck of the irish'...

We seem to have seen off a few people. Monty took his ball and ran away too.

super_realist wrote:[
Newspapers make stuff up all the time.

So do bloggers. And when they are asked for a citation, they get all uppity, and claim it is common knowledge.

GPB wrote:

super_realist wrote:[
Newspapers make stuff up all the time.

So do bloggers.  And when they are asked for a citation, they get all uppity, and claim it is common knowledge.

Like what? Are you denying that newspapers make stuff up?

If you're talking about Spieth, it is common knowledge he's a bible basher/science denier/credulous/gullible moron. It's not even in doubt, even if he doesn't advertise it or mention it in speeches like his bigoted brethren, it is mentioned elsewhere, such as his inclusion in PGA Bible Classes (how sad is that?) and his God over Science quote.

JFGI. (Just f**king Google It).

Over the head again. But obviously not now that I've said it.

super_realist wrote:

GPB wrote:

super_realist wrote:[
Newspapers make stuff up all the time.

So do bloggers.  And when they are asked for a citation, they get all uppity, and claim it is common knowledge.

Like what? Are you denying that newspapers make stuff up?

If you're talking about Spieth, it is common knowledge he's a bible basher/science denier/credulous/gullible moron. It's not even in doubt, even if he doesn't advertise it or mention it in speeches like his bigoted brethren, it is mentioned elsewhere, such as his inclusion in PGA Bible Classes (how sad is that?) and his God over Science quote.

JFGI. (Just f**king Google It).

I rest my case! If you can't prove it, just say so.

What? It's in numerous websites all over the internet.

Do actually want me to provide websites? Christ on an effing bike. It's COMMON knowledge.

https://www.christiantoday.com/article/christian.champion.golfer.jordan.spieth.earns.raves.for.his.devotion.to.christ/66837.htm

http://blog.godreports.com/2015/10/spieth-cometh/

http://www.jordanspiethgolf.com/news/jordan-spieths-sporting-grace-in-defeat-inspires-greater-faith-in-the-wonders-yet-to-come

Three websites off the first page on Google. One of them Spieths official bloody page.

It might be Spieth's official page, but it appears to be an article reprinted from the Independent. And even then, any mention of religion is restricted to the final paragraph

We can probably attribute this well-adjusted character to his upbringing in a family of orthodox Christian values in Texas, where churchgoing on Sunday is still a ritual upheld. Spieth is not overt in his devotion to God, though he has referenced on the odd occasion his attendance of the Bible classes organised by fellow believers on the PGA Tour, led by Ben Crane and supported by the freshly minted Open champion as well as 2009 incumbent Stewart Cink and double Masters champion Bubba Watson.

My emphasis. Hardly "damning" evidence if you pardon the pun. The other two can be ignored (christiantoday.com and godreports.com)

Listen, GPB inferred I couldn't find any evidence that Spieth is a bible thumper. Well I did, and not difficult to find either.

It doesn't matter that he doesn't proselytise or isn't overly vocal like other Yank jesus monkeys like Bubba Watson or Zach Johnson, he is, by confirmation of his own bloody website, a credulous moronic bible basher.

There's a slew of sources. I just picked the first three that stood out to me. Why would I ignore or disregard the claims of Christian websites? Are you saying they are more likely to make up who is or who is not a god botherer to get reflected glory from their success? If so, why don't they have every Yank PGA player who's ever won on there?

Didn't you say earlier on this very thread that it wasn't unusual for newspapers or websites to make things up?

Super

You found some sources that could count as evidence for Spieth being religious, but are they good pieces of evidence and do they support all the wild claims you make about Jordan?

For example you like to say he is a science denier, what makes you think that?

The guy is from Texas, in all likelihood he will be a it religious. Its not surprising. I have not seen or heard him push it on other people or claim it won him a title. I would also stress who give a flying sht.

Didn't hear Zach thanking god for finishing second..

super_realist wrote:
If you're talking about Spieth, it is common knowledge he's a bible basher/science denier/credulous/gullible moron.

I had no idea he was a science denier etc. Never seen anything to indicate that, of the x million people who watched him win the Open, how many knew that a bible basher was lifting the claret jug? Very few I expect, it's hardly common knowledge.

And then when GPB asked for proof, you linked three articles which don't contain a single religious quote from Spieth.

Super it looks like you've fallen for the old Daily Mail trick (and every other newspaper): 1. interview Spieth, 2. make up some stuff about him, 3. insert some actual quotes which are unrelated, 4. use the quotes to give false authority to the stuff you've made up in your article.

For Christ's sake (see what I've done there), one of the articles said he went to dinner at a restaurant run by Christians and used it as an example of his christian beliefs. How tenuous is that? If he'd gone for a curry would that make him muslim?

I can't believe anyone would believe those article are "evidence" of bible thumping

One of the articles even said

Spieth is not overt in his devotion to God,

Just because (Christian) religion is part of someone's life, does not mean that they are a Bible Thumper

Sergio and Rory both wear crucifixes which IMO are more "In your face" religion than a weekly private Bible study.

I can't believe any rational person would take the first two article linked seriously. They are obviously propaganda articles. Just look at the website names:

Godreports dot com and christiantoday dot com

Seriously? Articles from these website and you think that is proof? Good Gravy, I though Super had at least an iota of objectivity.

Super

You have always wondered how people could be so gullible that they would believe in fairy tales.

I guess you now know.

McLaren wrote:Super

You found some sources that could count as evidence for Spieth being religious, but are they good pieces of evidence and do they support all the wild claims you make about Jordan?

For example you like to say he is a science denier, what makes you think that?

What is "wild" Mac? If you attend courses to study the bible, in my view you're a bible thumper. If you say you trust a fairy tale over science, in my view that makes you a credulous numbskull. If you have a different view, that's fine. I'm not asking you to agree with me.

He was asked in Australia if he trusted god or Science, guess what he said?

SPieth, whether he's vocal or not, is religious, and to me in 2017 (actually anytime after 1914) for someone under the age of 80 in the age where you have more access to more information than ever before  to believe such nonsense makes him an absolute lunatic (in my opinion)

All I said was that Jordan Spieth was like Kevin Na with a bible and some people went into over-reaction overdrive as usual.

I think you are the one in overdrive. Just where exactly on the autistic spectrum are you anyway?

Think it must be Aspergers?

Davie wrote:I think you are the one in overdrive. Just where exactly on the autistic spectrum are you anyway?

pedro wrote:Think it must be Aspergers?

Quite enough of that I think.


Also, the general religious nonsense is getting very dull. Can we stop it now please?