The Future for the PRO14 - Part 4 - A Global Club Championship

First topic message reminder :

Following the Union Balldance of the last 12 months, another union has finally joined the party - SARU. The PRO12 league is gone with Martin Anayi's announcement of a global club championship involving conferences of teams from five unions with the potential for more to be included.

At first glance, it looks like a smart play - albeit somewhat fortuitous with SARU having to shed two teams from the Super Rugby competition. It brings together a lot more viewers that are attractive to media companies and business sponsors. Celtic Rugby Ltd still owns the competition with just its three founding shareholders - IRFU, SRU and WRU. No club or franchise owners involved. FIR failed to meet the required performance that would have made them shareholders at the beginning of July. And SARU weren't persuasive enough to get their seat at the table just yet. Rumours of a new company being set up failed to materialise. But they still signed up to a six-year agreement with £6m in funding each year.

It's not clear if this money is coming from SARU or directly from SuperSport, their broadcast partner. It is SARU who have signed the agreement to provide two teams so presumably the financial buck stops with them. It's more likely the £6m is a participation fee paid by SARU, similar to what FIR was charged when it joined in 2010. Media reports have said that the monies will be split equally amongst the 12 teams with travel and logistics costs for SA trips met centrally by Celtic Rugby Ltd since these will vary for clubs depending on whether they play one or both teams in SA.

Next on Anayi's agenda is the negotiation of a new media deal involving PPV and terrestrial TV, and online platforms. SuperSport may have already got their slice - all 20-22 home games involving Cheetahs and Kings plus some/all of the finals stages. Or perhaps not. Sky and possibly other PPV broadcasters such as Eir Sport may be willing to bid more to be the primary broadcaster for a higher profile, expanded Championship. But Anayi will want to keep a slice for terrestrial TV since they have a much better viewership reach. The current deal is for four years. Would a six-year deal be a better strategic move to guarantee increased revenues for a longer period? It would link in with the duration of the SARU agreement. And it would outlast the current participation agreement for the European Cup run by EPCR.

Further expansion is obviously the other key consideration with possibly other teams from SA, US and Europe coming on board. The danger is that Celtic Rugby goes too far and repeats the mistakes of Super Rugby. Better to build slowly to see if they will still come.

The coming season will be a fascinating one to see how the new structure and Championship beds in. Will attendances increase? Will there be more surprise results and potentially another new team to lift the cup next May?

Roll on 1 September.



Further info on PRO14 can be found here:
http://www.pro14rugby.org/2017/08/01/guinness-pro14-championship-qa/

RDW_Scotland wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Did anyone apart from the Aviva bid for it?

BBC sport wrote:Cardiff's Principality Stadium was also considered before Dublin was selected to host the match on 26 May.

BBC Sport understands the Principality Stadium pitch will have been taken up before the final, in preparation for hosting music events in the summer.

I'm not sure how it could have been considered if there was going to be no pitch.

No doubt there will be squabbling over this decision. It would be useful if the unions could clarify what the position is. One report has the WRU wanting to host it, and another says the Principality pitch was going to be taken up. Surely it is the WRU who would know if this is true/accurate.

PhilBB wrote:

From a financial point of view, the derbies in Wales are paramount. A derby for a Welsh fan is a game they can drive to, so your point about an AW league is moot because they very reason many of us want that is to increase the number of derbies played.

Remember, South Wales is tiny. We have four teams in a tiny area with a population similar to that of Leinster or Ulster. Munster is physically bigger than the whole of Wales. So, for us, derbies are different from what they are to non-Welsh folk. Hence, to us, they are vital.

You are not far wrong.

Here are the latest population figures.

Munster 1,280,394
Leinster 2,630,620
Connacht 550,742
Ulster 2106972

Ulster UK 1,810,854
Ulster ROI 296,118

When you take out North Wales I'd say Leinster has a bigger population for sure. Maybe Ulster also. Rugby playing/watching numbers would be much much bigger per head of population though.

The population of "South Wales" is about 2m. It's the same as Leinster or Ulster, except we have four pro rugby teams (and two top-ish soccer teams) all competing within that market place.

This is why it's hilarious that (especially) Ulster and Leinster are lauded for their crowds when they hit mid to late teen thousands. The equivalent in Wales (if all four were playing home) would be about 26k, despite two pro soccer teams playing in the same calendar space.

South Wales is comparatively tiny and economically poor. Our rugby is based on beating the next town or village or city that is no more than a stop or two on the train, or under 30 minutes by car. Our rugby history is cross border games with the top English clubs. If I fly to Dublin, my check in time pre departure is about the same time it would take to drive to half a dozen top English clubs.

So, for us, the derbies are paramount. Because, again for us, they are proper derbies.

Pot Hale wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Did anyone apart from the Aviva bid for it?

BBC sport wrote:Cardiff's Principality Stadium was also considered before Dublin was selected to host the match on 26 May.

BBC Sport understands the Principality Stadium pitch will have been taken up before the final, in preparation for hosting music events in the summer.

I'm not sure how it could have been considered if there was going to be no pitch.

No doubt there will be squabbling over this decision.  It would be useful if the unions could clarify what the position is.   One report has the WRU wanting to host it, and another says the Principality pitch was going to be taken up.  Surely it is the WRU who would know if this is true/accurate.  

Martyn Phillips is on record noting that the WRU couldn't have bid for it.

PhilBB wrote:The population of "South Wales" is about 2m. It's the same as Leinster or Ulster, except we have four pro rugby teams (and two top-ish soccer teams) all competing within that market place.

This is why it's hilarious that (especially) Ulster and Leinster are lauded for their crowds when they hit mid to late teen thousands. The equivalent in Wales (if all four were playing home) would be about 26k, despite two pro soccer teams playing in the same calendar space.

South Wales is comparatively tiny and economically poor. Our rugby is based on beating the next town or village or city that is no more than a stop or two on the train, or under 30 minutes by car. Our rugby history is cross border games with the top English clubs. If I fly to Dublin, my check in time pre departure is about the same time it would take to drive to half a dozen top English clubs.

So, for us, the derbies are paramount. Because, again for us, they are proper derbies.

Englsih soccer clubs are massively more well supported in Dublin than both Irish soccer and Irish Rugby put together. Gaa is huge too. Outside Dublin Gaa would be much bigger than everything else. Rugby has grown a lot since the millennium though.

When I say Irish Soccer I mean the FAI league and not the National team of course.

Yep - agree with Phil that Welsh regions proportionately do very well. Only problem is the regions need to be hitting 8.5-9k average at home to survive - if I recall Phil's comments correctly. Unless, the WRU increases their funding contribution to the regions as they said they were likely to do earlier this year.

PhilBB wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Did anyone apart from the Aviva bid for it?

BBC sport wrote:Cardiff's Principality Stadium was also considered before Dublin was selected to host the match on 26 May.

BBC Sport understands the Principality Stadium pitch will have been taken up before the final, in preparation for hosting music events in the summer.

I'm not sure how it could have been considered if there was going to be no pitch.

No doubt there will be squabbling over this decision.  It would be useful if the unions could clarify what the position is.   One report has the WRU wanting to host it, and another says the Principality pitch was going to be taken up.  Surely it is the WRU who would know if this is true/accurate.  

Martyn Phillips is on record noting that the WRU couldn't have bid for it.

Ah - I didn't know that. Thanks Phil.

St John The Enforcer wrote:

Englsih soccer clubs are massively more well supported in Dublin than both Irish soccer and Irish Rugby put together. Gaa is huge too. Outside Dublin Gaa would be much bigger than everything else. Rugby has grown a lot since the millennium though.

That's great but, as far as I know, there aren't 40,000 people flying out of Dublin each weekend for soccer matches and GAA doesn't have a fixture list that clashes too much.

Pot Hale wrote:Yep - agree with Phil that Welsh regions proportionately do very well.  Only problem is the regions need to be hitting 8.5-9k average at home to survive - if I recall Phil's comments correctly. Unless, the WRU increases their funding contribution to the regions as they said they were likely to do earlier this year.

I don't know where you get the "9k average at home to survive" from.

The WRU has explicitly stated it won't increase payments in any form other than in the development of age grade rugby.

Thankfully, there will be a new RSA soon.

PhilBB wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:Yep - agree with Phil that Welsh regions proportionately do very well.  Only problem is the regions need to be hitting 8.5-9k average at home to survive - if I recall Phil's comments correctly. Unless, the WRU increases their funding contribution to the regions as they said they were likely to do earlier this year.

I don't know where you get the "9k average at home to survive" from.

The WRU has explicitly stated it won't increase payments in any form other than in the development of age grade rugby.

Thankfully, there will be a new RSA soon.

I thought you had said previously that regions need a minimum gate of 8.5-9k as part of their financial plans. Is there a minimum target?

I'm pretty sure there was a comment from a WRU person interview that they would need to put more funding into the regions as private monies were not sufficient.

Pot Hale wrote:
I thought you had said previously that regions need a minimum gate of 8.5-9k as part of their financial plans.  Is there a minimum target?  

I'm pretty sure there was a comment from a WRU person  interview that they would need to put more funding into the regions as private monies were not sufficient.

Come on, you know that gate figures are nigh on irrelevant as the mix of ticket sales affects the bottom line badly.

If you could find that interview, I'd be grateful. Phillips told the Joint Supporters Group, who published the minutes of the meeting, that no money would go in beyond development level.

The "private monies" aren't supposed to be a constant.

PhilBB wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:
I thought you had said previously that regions need a minimum gate of 8.5-9k as part of their financial plans.  Is there a minimum target?  

I'm pretty sure there was a comment from a WRU person  interview that they would need to put more funding into the regions as private monies were not sufficient.

Come on, you know that gate figures are nigh on irrelevant as the mix of ticket sales affects the bottom line badly.

If you could find that interview, I'd be grateful. Phillips told the Joint Supporters Group, who published the minutes of the meeting, that no money would go in beyond development level.

The "private monies" aren't supposed to be a constant.

I must have mixed up your comments on gate figures with someone else - apologies.

I went looking for the interview comment - nearest thing I could find was Phillips in January of this year saying

“If it came to that we’d have to look at it (controlling stake in Dragons) and whether we could afford it, but my view is that professional rugby clubs going forward have to have a combination of union funding and private investment.

“We just have to find the right model and make the appropriate investments. That’s why they are working with us and our belief is that we can turn that around.”

I recognise that he was focussed on the Dragons situation but I took his comments also to apply to the other regions. There was further media comments on this but couldn't find them in time available. Work calls.

PhilBB wrote:

St John The Enforcer wrote:

Englsih soccer clubs are massively more well supported in Dublin than both Irish soccer and Irish Rugby put together. Gaa is huge too. Outside Dublin Gaa would be much bigger than everything else. Rugby has grown a lot since the millennium though.

That's great but, as far as I know, there aren't 40,000 people flying out of Dublin each weekend for soccer matches and GAA doesn't have a fixture list that clashes too much.

That's a fair point. But it's not down to bodies being out of the country it's down to lack of interest in the game generally.

A lot of people have a big chip on their shoulder about Rugby being a "posh boys game" like in England and most places outside of Wales New Zealand and Limerick.

Pot Hale wrote:
I recognise that he was focussed on the Dragons situation but I took his comments also to apply to the other regions.  There was further media comments on this but couldn't find them in time available.  Work calls.

https://twitter.com/Crys16_Trust/status/885581145991262208

St John The Enforcer wrote:

That's a fair point. But it's not down to bodies being out of the country it's down to lack of interest in the game generally.

A lot of people have a big chip on their shoulder about Rugby being a "posh boys game" like in England and most places outside of Wales New Zealand and Limerick.

Sure, I can see how it is looked at that way, but I'm sure that you can see the weight of maths is important when viewing how 4 teams live in one marketplace in Wales.

Sure. Maths and affluence.

That's why Twickers is packed with hooray henrys in Range Rovers.

And probably why the Dragons ground is such a bear pit.

mikey_dragon wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:Griffiths believes the inclusion of the Bloemfontein and Port Elizabeth-based sides in a new look PRO14 could pave the way for South Africa’s four remaining Super Rugby franchises to break away from the SANZAAR-run competition when TV deals expire in 2020.

Well,well.

I have been saying this for ages, since the talk of South African sides joining the Pro12. I was laughed out if town on here.

The South African franchises will be a big part of European rugby within the next decade. The next step will be South Africa joining the 6N. Why ? Because the NH is where the money is, and money talks. The SA TV deals are propping up SH rugby as it is.

South African teams will be joining the the Pro14 lock stock and barrel within the next decade, probably at the cost of the Italians. Then SA will join the 6N at the cost of Italy, because money talks. This will be the death knell for SH rugby.

No you haven't

Again, you must be a nightmare to live with.

Why is it always argument after argument with you ? Anyway check this link:-

https://www.606v2.com/t66041p200-the-future-for-the-pro12-part-3-the-union-balldance

That is me mentioning it a month ago. I was talking about it before that as well, i just can't remember which thread it was on. Anyway that link should be enough to prove you wrong, again.

Now please can we just leave it there ?

Your link points to a comment by you about your father having the thought about more SA sides joining European comps.  So it was your father, not you.   Secondly, the notion of SA sides joining European comps has been around for a number of years.  Your father or you are not unique in this thought.  It's been mentioned on 606v2 a number of times by different posters.   I don't see any comments that laugh you out of town on it either since your father's comments reflect what other people have said.  

Yep. I imagine he's just looking for attention again

St John The Enforcer wrote:Sure. Maths and affluence.

That's why Twickers is packed with hooray henrys in Range Rovers.

And probably why the Dragons ground is such a bear pit.

How very dare you

PhilBB wrote:The population of "South Wales" is about 2m. It's the same as Leinster or Ulster, except we have four pro rugby teams (and two top-ish soccer teams) all competing within that market place.

This is why it's hilarious that (especially) Ulster and Leinster are lauded for their crowds when they hit mid to late teen thousands. The equivalent in Wales (if all four were playing home) would be about 26k, despite two pro soccer teams playing in the same calendar space.

South Wales is comparatively tiny and economically poor. Our rugby is based on beating the next town or village or city that is no more than a stop or two on the train, or under 30 minutes by car. Our rugby history is cross border games with the top English clubs. If I fly to Dublin, my check in time pre departure is about the same time it would take to drive to half a dozen top English clubs.

So, for us, the derbies are paramount. Because, again for us, they are proper derbies.

If true and 4 teams in south Wales cannot get the support  required then it srmtands to reason that one needs closed and RGC1404 opened. Which it sounds like you are arguing for?

PhilBB wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:
I recognise that he was focussed on the Dragons situation but I took his comments also to apply to the other regions.  There was further media comments on this but couldn't find them in time available.  Work calls.

https://twitter.com/Crys16_Trust/status/885581145991262208

Thanks. Two sides of the same coin. It's increased funding investment but earmarked for player development. A bit like the IRFU's focus on investing in domestic pathway in recent years. Albeit with greater funding.

Kingshu wrote:

If true and 4 teams in south Wales cannot get the support  required then it srmtands to reason that one needs closed and RGC1404 opened. Which it sounds like you are arguing for?

That's an odd definition of "reason".

Two questions for you:

1. where could RGC play that is of the sufficient size and standard?
2. who would pay for it?

Pot Hale wrote:

Thanks.  Two sides of the same coin.  It's increased funding investment but earmarked for player development. A bit like the IRFU's focus on investing in domestic pathway in recent years. Albeit with greater funding.

Except the IRFU also chucked millions of Euro on professional player wages and allow Munster to not repay €9m, so not really like it at all.

PhilBB wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

Thanks.  Two sides of the same coin.  It's increased funding investment but earmarked for player development. A bit like the IRFU's focus on investing in domestic pathway in recent years. Albeit with greater funding.

Except the IRFU also chucked millions of Euro on professional player wages and allow Munster to not repay €9m, so not really like it at all.

Two different things you're arguing there. The IRFU pays the wages of players. And it has agreed to defer repayment of the loan.

The WRU is investing further into the regions to develop players. Seems like a sensible investment to me.

Kingshu wrote:

PhilBB wrote:The population of "South Wales" is about 2m. It's the same as Leinster or Ulster, except we have four pro rugby teams (and two top-ish soccer teams) all competing within that market place.

This is why it's hilarious that (especially) Ulster and Leinster are lauded for their crowds when they hit mid to late teen thousands. The equivalent in Wales (if all four were playing home) would be about 26k, despite two pro soccer teams playing in the same calendar space.

South Wales is comparatively tiny and economically poor. Our rugby is based on beating the next town or village or city that is no more than a stop or two on the train, or under 30 minutes by car. Our rugby history is cross border games with the top English clubs. If I fly to Dublin, my check in time pre departure is about the same time it would take to drive to half a dozen top English clubs.

So, for us, the derbies are paramount. Because, again for us, they are proper derbies.

If true and 4 teams in south Wales cannot get the support  required then it srmtands to reason that one needs closed and RGC1404 opened. Which it sounds like you are arguing for?

It sounds a better argument for Welsh teams joining English league. As a Gloucester fan in the amateur days I used to love the matches with the guys from over the border. An English and Welsh league with a regional element would be great. I am sure people in Cardiff and Newport have more interest in playing Bath than Bloemfontein. More travelling fans are likely to come from Gloucester than Port Elizabeth!

Exiledinborders wrote:

Kingshu wrote:

PhilBB wrote:The population of "South Wales" is about 2m. It's the same as Leinster or Ulster, except we have four pro rugby teams (and two top-ish soccer teams) all competing within that market place.

This is why it's hilarious that (especially) Ulster and Leinster are lauded for their crowds when they hit mid to late teen thousands. The equivalent in Wales (if all four were playing home) would be about 26k, despite two pro soccer teams playing in the same calendar space.

South Wales is comparatively tiny and economically poor. Our rugby is based on beating the next town or village or city that is no more than a stop or two on the train, or under 30 minutes by car. Our rugby history is cross border games with the top English clubs. If I fly to Dublin, my check in time pre departure is about the same time it would take to drive to half a dozen top English clubs.

So, for us, the derbies are paramount. Because, again for us, they are proper derbies.

If true and 4 teams in south Wales cannot get the support  required then it srmtands to reason that one needs closed and RGC1404 opened. Which it sounds like you are arguing for?

It sounds a better argument for Welsh teams joining English league. As a Gloucester fan in the amateur days I used to love the matches with the guys from over the border. An English and Welsh league with a regional element would be great.  I am sure people in Cardiff and Newport have more interest in playing Bath than Bloemfontein. More travelling fans are likely to come from Gloucester than Port Elizabeth!

Down with this kind of sensible talk. You'll be saying we could have a much bigger pile of cash for playing these traditional English rival teams next.

Exiledinborders wrote:

Kingshu wrote:

PhilBB wrote:The population of "South Wales" is about 2m. It's the same as Leinster or Ulster, except we have four pro rugby teams (and two top-ish soccer teams) all competing within that market place.

This is why it's hilarious that (especially) Ulster and Leinster are lauded for their crowds when they hit mid to late teen thousands. The equivalent in Wales (if all four were playing home) would be about 26k, despite two pro soccer teams playing in the same calendar space.

South Wales is comparatively tiny and economically poor. Our rugby is based on beating the next town or village or city that is no more than a stop or two on the train, or under 30 minutes by car. Our rugby history is cross border games with the top English clubs. If I fly to Dublin, my check in time pre departure is about the same time it would take to drive to half a dozen top English clubs.

So, for us, the derbies are paramount. Because, again for us, they are proper derbies.

If true and 4 teams in south Wales cannot get the support  required then it srmtands to reason that one needs closed and RGC1404 opened. Which it sounds like you are arguing for?

It sounds a better argument for Welsh teams joining English league. As a Gloucester fan in the amateur days I used to love the matches with the guys from over the border. An English and Welsh league with a regional element would be great.  I am sure people in Cardiff and Newport have more interest in playing Bath than Bloemfontein. More travelling fans are likely to come from Gloucester than Port Elizabeth!

I grew up on stories about games from the old merit table league, and as a young kid I used to love going to watch the cross border games with my father down at the Arms Park. Great days, full grounds, and loads of passion.

Sadly the English have no interest in the Welsh - that ship has long sailed.

Wales blew it when they turned down the 8+4 offer at the start of the Premership

geoff999rugby wrote:Sadly the English have no interest in the Welsh - that ship has long sailed.

Know that as a fact do you ?

I use my ears, my eyes and my brain and to an extent contacts.

You should never say never but the reality is the English are never going to be interested in an Anglo-Welsh league for, at the very least, a decade.

For the good health of Welsh rugby it would be better if you give up on this 'lost clause' and make the best of what is actually achievable elsewhere.

geoff999rugby wrote:I use my ears, my eyes and my brain and to an extent contacts.

You should never say never but the reality is the English are never going to be interested in an Anglo-Welsh league for, at the very least, a decade.

For the good health of Welsh rugby it would be better if you give up on this 'lost clause' and make the best of what is actually achievable elsewhere.

Somewhere, in a Cardiff bedsit, PhillBB is apoplectic with rage...

geoff999rugby wrote:For the good health of Welsh rugby it would be better if you give up on this 'lost clause' and make the best of what is actually achievable elsewhere.

I actually agree with this, in the vain that we have what we have and need to try and make it work. But there is a very rich history between certain Welsh and English clubs, and that should not be discarded either.

munkian wrote:Somewhere, in a Cardiff bedsit, PhillBB is apoplectic with rage...

This made me laugh out loud enough for someone to actually come into my office to find out what was going on.

PhilBB wrote:

Kingshu wrote:

If true and 4 teams in south Wales cannot get the support  required then it srmtands to reason that one needs closed and RGC1404 opened. Which it sounds like you are arguing for?

That's an odd definition of "reason".

Two questions for you:

1. where could RGC play that is of the sufficient size and standard?
2. who would pay for it?

So you don't want to enter RGC1404, but South Wales does not have the population to support 4 teams are you arging for a reduction to 3 team?  Or chaning your mind and that rugby is popular in south Wales and they should be able to attrach decent crowds at each region?

Kingshu wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

Kingshu wrote:

If true and 4 teams in south Wales cannot get the support  required then it srmtands to reason that one needs closed and RGC1404 opened. Which it sounds like you are arguing for?

That's an odd definition of "reason".

Two questions for you:

1. where could RGC play that is of the sufficient size and standard?
2. who would pay for it?

So you don't want to enter RGC1404, but South Wales does not have the population to support 4 teams are you arging for a reduction to 3 team?  Or chaning your mind and that rugby is popular in south Wales and they should be able to attrach decent crowds at each region?

Kingshu - you are the one proposing that one region in South Wales needs to be closed and RGC1404 opened. Phil asked you two reasonable and pertinent questions. What are the answers in your view?

Phillbb mentioned that south Wales has a population of 2million and their attendances were the same as Ulster or Leinster attracting 26000 which I dont buy.
If its true then is then it stands to reason, that one needs closed? Or one in North gets added to increase potentional population?
Or as I believe the regions are capable of gaining support to match around the Aviva average of 15000, thats why parc n scarlets was built to this size.
The comments on popularion size and football etc is hogwash, or excuses, the regions are all capable of gaining a 12000 average attendance its success that will draw fans in, I bet if Scarlets won the ERC the next season they would have a 12000 average and noone would mention football population size etc. The other side is the apathy/running down of the PRO 12/14 and looking at the Aviva, however with SA sides and extra money its beginning to be seen as a genuine rival.
If I'm wrong then it stands to reason, that one needs closed? Or one in North gets added to increase potentional population?

Kingshu wrote:Phillbb mentioned that south Wales has a population of 2million and their attendances were the same as Ulster or Leinster attracting 26000 which I dont buy.
If its true then is then it stands to reason, that one needs closed? Or one in North gets added to increase potentional population?
Or as I believe the regions are capable of gaining support to match around the Aviva average of 15000, thats why parc n scarlets was built to this size.
The comments on popularion size and football etc is hogwash, or excuses, the regions are all capable of gaining a 12000 average attendance its success that will draw fans in, I bet if Scarlets won the ERC the next season they would have a 12000 average and noone would mention football population size etc. The other side is the apathy/running down of the PRO 12/14 and looking at the Aviva, however with SA sides and extra money its beginning to be seen as a genuine rival.
If I'm wrong then it stands to reason, that one needs closed? Or one in North gets added to increase potentional population?

Ok.  And what are the answers to Phil's two questions about your proposal that RGC1404 are brought instead of one of the existing regions?

1. where could RGC play that is of the sufficient size and standard?
2. who would pay for it?

Thats not for me to figure out hes the one who mentioned the small population in south wales for 4 teams. Which suggests he's wanting one closed or moved? Which I said it sounds like hes argueing for.

Kingshu wrote:Thats not for me to figure out hes the one who mentioned the small population in south wales for 4 teams. Which suggests he's wanting one closed or moved? Which I said it sounds like hes argueing for.

So does that mean you don't know?  You said that if South Wales attendances can't increase then it stands to reason that a region should be dropped and RGC1404 brought in.  If it "stands to reason" then that means that it is an obvious or self-evident outcome or solution.  Except you have no evidence or facts to support your conclusion about RGC1404 and indeed seem to think that Phil should come up with them instead.  Since it is your suggestion and not his, then this seems a bit odd that you expect someone else to prove your theory.  

Indeed, you're inferring a lot from his comment about attendances in South Wales.   Its population is comparative to the individual populations of either Ulster or Leinster.  Except the South Wales potential fan base is split across four regional  teams vs just one team in either Ulster or Leinster.

People see the North as some untapped area, but is it really? They fill out Parc Eirias for U20 games, but that's a novelty. There's no evidence to suggest a pro team would be well supported. I'm sure they might do well initially crowd wise in comparison to say Dragons, but what about when the novelty wears off? It wouldn't do any better.

I hate this nonsense that people who know nothing about the way Wales is when it comes to crowd sizes and the what not for the fab four.

But people must be seriously living under a rock to not know that Wales is quite a rugby hotbed, which is evidence when Wales play. Why ? Because the whole of the rugby supporting population in Wales will get behind the national side, and it is a coincidence that all other rugby is usually not played during the international days.

The thing is, Wales has three times the amount of rugby sides that Ireland and Scotland  have and about half the population.

Simple arithmetic will dictate that there are not enough people for the amount of teams we have, not just to support, but the people it takes to run and play in all these teams. When all that is taken into account, the crowd sizes at the regions need to be commended not ridiculed. Also South Wales has some very deprived area's. Not everybody can afford a day out at the rugby, but most will watch it on the tele, hence the big TV audiences we get here. Add to the fact that people cannot be in two places at once, most have to make a decision of either their local side, or their region.

Now onto the football issue. People need to consider what we have here in Wales. We have Swansea City FC and Cardiff City FC. In the same area we have Cardiff Blues and Dragons, Ospreys and Scarlets. Twice as many pro rugby teams as pro football teams. All these teams draw support from the same area's. Well Cardiff FC get a lot of support from the valleys that Cardiff Blues do not get, but if you add the attendances together for both Ospreys and Scarlets you will not be far away from the attendance Swansea City get. Likewise if you add Cardiff Blues and Dragons and compare it with Cardiff City FC.

So this myth that the regions do not get enough support is nonsense, when in fact, they are doing very well to get the numbers they are, yes they could do more, and I have been more than vocal about it, but I just wish people would take the time to consider the fact before they go waffling off about how rubbish the support for rugby in Wales or at the regions is.

Kingshu wrote:Thats not for me to figure out

Sadly this is the all too common answer when those with the big ideas are challenged on how you put the "pro" into "pro sport".

You can have all the ideas in the world, but when it comes down to how they are going to operate, the silence becomes deafening.

Kingshu wrote: with SA sides and extra money its beginning to be seen as a genuine rival.

By who?

LordDowlais wrote:I hate this nonsense that people who know nothing about the way Wales is when it comes to crowd sizes and the what not for the fab four.

But people must be seriously living under a rock to not know that Wales is quite a rugby hotbed, which is evidence when Wales play. Why ? Because the whole of the rugby supporting population in Wales will get behind the national side, and it is a coincidence that all other rugby is usually not played during the international days.

The thing is, Wales has three times the amount of rugby sides that Ireland and Scotland  have and about half the population.

Simple arithmetic will dictate that there are not enough people for the amount of teams we have, not just to support, but the people it takes to run and play in all these teams. When all that is taken into account, the crowd sizes at the regions need to be commended not ridiculed. Also South Wales has some very deprived area's. Not everybody can afford a day out at the rugby, but most will watch it on the tele, hence the big TV audiences we get here. Add to the fact that people cannot be in two places at once, most have to make a decision of either their local side, or their region.

Now onto the football issue. People need to consider what we have here in Wales. We have Swansea City FC and Cardiff City FC. In the same area we have Cardiff Blues and Dragons, Ospreys and Scarlets. Twice as many pro rugby teams as pro football teams. All these teams draw support from the same area's. Well Cardiff FC get a lot of support from the valleys that Cardiff Blues do not get, but if you add the attendances together for both Ospreys and Scarlets you will not be far away from the attendance Swansea City get. Likewise if you add Cardiff Blues and Dragons and compare it with Cardiff City FC.

So this myth that the regions do not get enough support is nonsense, when in fact, they are doing very well to get the numbers they are, yes they could do more, and I have been more than vocal about it, but I just wish people would take the time to consider the fact before they go waffling off about how rubbish the support for rugby in Wales or at the regions is.

You say that you hate nonsense from people who know nothing about the way that Wales is in regard to crowd sizes, etc.

You then go on to say that Wales is a rugby hotbed evidenced by that when Wales national team plays the whole of the rugby supporting population gets behind the team.   And that all other rugby is not usually played on international days.  How is this any different from rugby in Scotland, England, France, Ireland, New Zealand, South Africa, etc?

You said that "Simple arithmetic will dictate that there are not enough people for the amount of teams we have, not just to support, but the people it takes to run and play in all these teams. When all that is taken into account, the crowd sizes at the regions need to be commended not ridiculed"

On the simple arithmetic, you say that: "Wales has three times the amount of rugby sides that Ireland and Scotland have, and about half the population."

According to World Rugby data and census returns:
Wales has 250 registered clubs.  It has a population of 3.063m and a pop density of 148/km2
Scotland has 251 registered clubs.  A population of 5.4m and a pop density of 67/km2
Ireland has 221 registered clubs.  A population of 6.3m and a density of 73/km2
(as a comparator, New Zealand has 600 registered clubs with a population of 4.8m and a density of 17.5/km2.)

Thus Wales has the same number of clubs as Scotland, 30 more than Ireland, and "about half" the population of both.  However, overall it has more than double the population density of Ireland and Scotland.
Looking at the specific areas of the location of the professional clubs, South Wales has approx 2.2m people with approx ten times the population density of Ulster/NI 1.8m people (132/km2) and Leinster 2.6m people.  (126/km2).
Population density is relevant when considering potential fan populations, distance from clubs and easy/short access to them.

In terms of other competing sports, soccer, football and hurling would be the biggest across the 3 countries:
Ireland has approx 2,500 GAA clubs, and over a 1,000 soccer clubs.
Scotland has two big teams in Glasgow Rangers and Celtic and operates its own professional league - its numbers are far greater than anything in either Wales or Ireland.

Last season home attendances in PRO12 and European Cups

Team PRO12   Europe

Ulster 174,433 plus 48,000
Leinster 168,619 plus 120,000
Munster 149,744 plus 154,000
Cardiff 99,823 plus 22,000
Ospreys 99,291 plus 33,000
Glasgow 79,870 plus 22,000
Scarlets 78,828 plus 22,000
Dragons 76,675 plus 12,000
Connacht 67,621 plus 22,000
Edinburgh 57,881 plus 20,000

Wales average per home game 32,000 (4)
Irish average per home game 51,000 (4)
Scottish average per home game 12,500 (2)

C'mon Pot Hale, give him a break! LD likes to go with how he feels on a given topic, rather than doing some research and presenting facts! He feels he was right on this one!!

Rugby clubs in Wales

Aberavon RFC
Bedwas RFC
Bridgend Ravens
Cardiff RFC
Carmarthen Quins RFC
Cross Keys RFC
Ebbw Vale RFC
Llandovery RFC
Llanelli RFC
Neath RFC
Newport RFC
Pontypridd RFC
Bargoed RFC
Blackwood RFC
Bridgend Athletic RFC
Cardiff Metropolitan University RFC
Glynneath RFC
Llanharan RFC
Merthyr RFC
Narberth RFC
Newbridge RFC
Pontypool RFC
RGC 1404
Swansea RFC
Tata Steel RFC
Tondu RFC
Blaenavon RFC
Cardiff Quins RFC
Fleur De Lys RFC
Garndiffaith RFC
Glamorgan Wanderers RFC
Llanishen RFC
Nelson RFC
Penallta RFC
Rumney RFC
Risca RFC
Rhiwbina RFC
Senghenydd RFC
Abergele RFC
Bala RFC
Bethesda RFC
Bro Ffestiniog RFC
Caernarfon RFC
COBRA
Colwyn Bay RFC
Denbigh (DInbych) RFC
Dolgellau RFC
Llandudno RFC
Mold RFC
Nant Conwy RFC
Pwllheli RFC
Ruthin RFC
Amman United RFC
Ammanford RFC
Carmarthen Athletic RFC
Crymych RFC
Felinfoel RFC
Gorseinon RFC
Kidwelly RFC
Llangennech RFC
Loughor RFC
Newcastle Emlyn RFC
Tenby United RFC
Whitland RFC
Abergavenny RFC
Abertillery / Blaenau Gwent RFC
Abertysswg Falcons RFC
Brynmawr RFC
Caerphilly RFC
Croesyceiliog RFC
Nantyglo RFC
Newport HSOB RFC
Pill Harriers RFC
Pontypool United RFC
Talywain RFC
Tredegar RFC
Abergele RFC
Colwyn Bay RFC
Harlech RFC
Llangefni RFC
Machynlleth RFC
Menai Bridge RFC
Newtown RFC
Rhyl and District RFC
Shotton Steel RFC
Wrexham RFC
Aberystwyth RFC
Cardigan RFC
Gowerton RFC
Haverfordwest RFC
Hendy RFC
Llandeilo RFC
Llanelli Wanderers RFC
Llanybydder RFC
Penclawdd RFC
Penian RFC
Pontarddulais RFC
Tycroes RFC
Beddau RFC
Bedllinog RFC
Dowlais RFC
Gilfach Goch RFC
Heol y Cyw RFC
Llantrisant RFC
Llantwit Fardre RFC
Mountain Ash RFC
Rhydyfelin RFC
Treorchy RFC
Ynysybwl RFC
Ystrad Rhondda RFC
Bonymaen RFC
Builth Wells RFC
Cwmllynfell RFC
Dunvant RFC
Kenfig Hill RFC
Maesteg Harlequins RFC
Mumbles RFC
Seven Sisters RFC
Skewen RFC
Trebanos RFC
Waunarlwydd RFC
Ystalyfera RFC
Abercynon RFC
Brecon RFC
Clwb Rygbi Cymry Caerdydd RFC
Fairwater RFC
Gwernyfed RFC
Penarth RFC
Pentyrch RFC
Porth Harlequins RFC
Pontyclun RFC
St. Joseph's RFC
St. Peters RFC
Wattstown RFC
Aberavon Green Stars RFC
Aberavon Quins RFC
Brynamman RFC
Cwmgors RFC
Glyncorrwg RFC
Maesteg RFC
Maesteg Celtic RFC
Neath Athletic RFC
Pencoed RFC
Pontycymmer RFC
Resolven RFC
Taibach RFC
Bangor RFC
Bangor University RFC
Benllech RFC
Flint RFC
Holyhead RFC
Llangollen RFC
Llanidloes RFC
Porthmadog RFC
Rhosllanerchrugog RFC
Welshpool RFC
Blackwood Stars RFC
Caldicot RFC
Caerleon RFC
Chepstow RFC
Cwmbran RFC
Llanhilleth RFC
Monmouth RFC
New Tredegar RFC
Oakdale RFC
Rhymney RFC
RTB (Ebbw Vale) RFC
Ynysddu RFC
Abercarn RFC
Beaufort RFC
Bettws (Newport) RFC
Blania RFC
Brynithel RFC
Crumlin RFC
Hafodyrynys RFC
Machen RFC
Rogerstone RFC
Tredegar Ironsides RFC
Trefil RFC
Usk RFC
Aberbargoed RFC
Aberbeeg RFC
Cefn Fforest RFC
Crickhowell RFC
Deri RFC
Hartridge RFC
Hollybush RFC
Markham RFC
New Panteg RFC
Pontllanfraith RFC
Trinant RFC
Whiteheads RFC
Abersychan Alexanders RFC
Cwmcarn United RFC
Forgeside RFC
Girling RFC
Malpas RFC
Newport Saracens RFC
Old Tylerian RFC
Rhayader RFC
St. Julians HSOB RFC
Tref-Y-Clawdd RFC
West Mon RFC
Barry RFC
Caerau Ely RFC
Canton RFC
Cowbridge RFC
Dinas Powys RFC
Llandaff RFC
Llandaff North RFC
Llantwit Major RFC
Old Illtydians RFC
Old Penarthians RFC
St. Albans RFC
Taffs Well RFC
Abercwmboi RFC
Aberdare RFC
Cambrian Welfare RFC
Cefn Coed RFC
Clifynydd RFC
Glyncoch RFC
Hirwaun RFC
Penygraig RFC
Tonyrefail RFC
Treherbert RFC
Tylorstown RFC
Blaengarw RFC
Cathays RFC
Cardiff Internationals RFC
Cardiff Saracens RFC
Ferndale RFC
Llandrindod Wells RFC
Llanrumney RFC
Sully Sports RFC
Tongwynlais RFC
Whitchurch RFC
Wick RFC
Ynysowen RFC
Bridgend Sports Club RFC
Bryncethin RFC
Cefn Cribbwr RFC
Nantyffyllon RFC
Nantymoel RFC
Ogmore Vale RFC
Pontrhydyfen RFC
Porthcawl RFC
Pyle RFC
Tonmawr RFC
Baglan RFC
Birchgrove RFC
Briton Ferry RFC
Bryncoch RFC
Crynant (Creunant) RFC
Cwmavon RFC
Cwmgwrach RFC
Glais RFC
Rhigos RFC
Tonna RFC
Abercrave RFC
Alltwen RFC
Banwen RFC
Cwmtwrch RFC
Fall Bay RFC
Morriston RFC
Pontardawe RFC
South Gower RFC
Swansea Uplands RFC
Vardre RFC
Ystradgynlais RFC
Bynea RFC
Burry Port RFC
Cefneithin RFC
Lampeter Town RFC
Llandybie RFC
Nantgaredig RFC
New Dock Stars RFC
Penybanc RFC
Pontyberem RFC
Trimsaran RFC
Tumble RFC
Aberaeron RFC
Fishguard and Goodwick RFC
Laugharne RFC
Llangwm RFC
Milford Haven RFC
Neyland RFC
Pembroke RFC
Pembroke Dock Harlequins RFC
St. Clears RFC
St. Davids RFC
Blaenau RFC
Betws RFC
Furnace United RFC
Llangadog RFC
Llansawel & District RFC
Mynydd-Y-Garreg RFC
Pantyffynon RFC
Penygroes RFC
Pontyates RFC
Tregaron RFC


There you go 300 clubs all in Wales. Now Pot Hale has tried to be clever and add all the GAA clubs as well. So I will do Ireland next.

Rugby clubs in Ireland

Antrim RFC
Ardee RFC
Ards RFC
Arklow RFC
Ashbourne RFC
Athboy RFC
Athy RFC
Balbriggan RFC
Ballincollig RFC
Ballymena R.F.C.
Ballynahinch RFC
Banbridge RFC
Bective Rangers
Belfast Harlequins
Birr RFC
Blackrock College RFC
Boyne RFC
Bruff R.F.C.
Cashel RFC
Cill Dara RFC
City of Armagh RFC
Clane RFC
Clanwilliam Rugby Club
Clonakilty RFC
Clontarf FC
Collegians (Belfast)
Connemara RFC
Cooke RFC
Coolmine RFC
University College Cork R.F.C.
Cork Constitution
County Carlow Football Club
Crosshaven RFC
CYM RFC
De La Salle Palmerston
Dolphin RFC
University College Dublin R.F.C.
Dublin City University RFC
Dublin University Football Club
Dungannon RFC
Edenderry RFC
Emerald Warriors RFC
Ennis RFC
Enniscorthy RFC
Galway Corinthians RFC
Galwegians RFC
Garda RFC
Garryowen Football Club
Gorey RFC
Greystones RFC
Highfield R.F.C.
Instonians
Kanturk RFC
Kilfeacle and District RFC
Kilkenny RFC
Kinsale RFC
Lansdowne Football Club
Letterkenny RFC
Longford RFC
Malahide RFC
Malone RFC
Midleton RFC
Millmount House RFC
Monkstown Football Club
MU Barnhall RFC
Naas RFC
Navan R.F.C.
Nenagh Ormond
New Ross RFC
Newbridge RFC (Ireland)
Newry R.F.C.
North Kildare RFC
North Meath RFC
North of Ireland F.C.
Old Belvedere
Old Christians RFC
Old Crescent RFC
Old Wesley R.F.C.
Parkmore RFC
Portadown RFC
Portarlington RFC
Portlaoise RFC
NUI Galway RFC
Railway Union RFC
Rainey Old Boys R.F.C.
Rathdrum RFC
Roscrea RFC
Seapoint RFC
Shamrock Warriors RFC
Shannon RFC
Skerries RFC
Sligo RFC
St Mary's College RFC
Stillorgan RFC
Sundays Well RFC
Suttonians RFC
Swords RFC
Terenure College RFC
Thomond RFC
Tullamore RFC
Tullow RFC
UL Bohemians R.F.C.
Ulster F.C.
Ulster Titans
Wanderers F.C. (rugby union)
Waterpark RFC
Westport RFC (The Bulls)
Wexford Wanderers RFC
Wicklow RFC
Young Munster

There you go 110 rugby clubs in Ireland, so I was right, Wales has three times the clubs as Ireland has with half the population.

I wish people would stop trying to be overly too clever on here just to win the internet.

Remember Pot, it's rugby clubs, not sports clubs or GAA clubs.

Griff wrote:C'mon Pot Hale, give him a break!  LD likes to go with how he feels on a given topic, rather than doing some research and presenting facts!  He feels he was right on this one!!

Griff, why do you have to be like this ?

You are usually a decent poster on here, why do you let yourself down ?

"There you go 110 rugby clubs in Ireland, so I was right, Wales has three times the clubs as Ireland has with half the population."

What percentage of that population are followers of the oval ball though?