The Future for the PRO14 - Part 4 - A Global Club Championship

First topic message reminder :

Following the Union Balldance of the last 12 months, another union has finally joined the party - SARU. The PRO12 league is gone with Martin Anayi's announcement of a global club championship involving conferences of teams from five unions with the potential for more to be included.

At first glance, it looks like a smart play - albeit somewhat fortuitous with SARU having to shed two teams from the Super Rugby competition. It brings together a lot more viewers that are attractive to media companies and business sponsors. Celtic Rugby Ltd still owns the competition with just its three founding shareholders - IRFU, SRU and WRU. No club or franchise owners involved. FIR failed to meet the required performance that would have made them shareholders at the beginning of July. And SARU weren't persuasive enough to get their seat at the table just yet. Rumours of a new company being set up failed to materialise. But they still signed up to a six-year agreement with £6m in funding each year.

It's not clear if this money is coming from SARU or directly from SuperSport, their broadcast partner. It is SARU who have signed the agreement to provide two teams so presumably the financial buck stops with them. It's more likely the £6m is a participation fee paid by SARU, similar to what FIR was charged when it joined in 2010. Media reports have said that the monies will be split equally amongst the 12 teams with travel and logistics costs for SA trips met centrally by Celtic Rugby Ltd since these will vary for clubs depending on whether they play one or both teams in SA.

Next on Anayi's agenda is the negotiation of a new media deal involving PPV and terrestrial TV, and online platforms. SuperSport may have already got their slice - all 20-22 home games involving Cheetahs and Kings plus some/all of the finals stages. Or perhaps not. Sky and possibly other PPV broadcasters such as Eir Sport may be willing to bid more to be the primary broadcaster for a higher profile, expanded Championship. But Anayi will want to keep a slice for terrestrial TV since they have a much better viewership reach. The current deal is for four years. Would a six-year deal be a better strategic move to guarantee increased revenues for a longer period? It would link in with the duration of the SARU agreement. And it would outlast the current participation agreement for the European Cup run by EPCR.

Further expansion is obviously the other key consideration with possibly other teams from SA, US and Europe coming on board. The danger is that Celtic Rugby goes too far and repeats the mistakes of Super Rugby. Better to build slowly to see if they will still come.

The coming season will be a fascinating one to see how the new structure and Championship beds in. Will attendances increase? Will there be more surprise results and potentially another new team to lift the cup next May?

Roll on 1 September.



Further info on PRO14 can be found here:
http://www.pro14rugby.org/2017/08/01/guinness-pro14-championship-qa/

Ok coming late to this debate - if you can call it that

Are the various terrestrial components still in place next year?
So Sky has lost the 26 counties rights - what is happening to the UK rights (including NI)
Can someone summarise ?

RugbyFan100 wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

No it wasn't, you said it 'proves its a league set up to benefit the Irish before anyone else.

The Irish have an option for a single subscription to all provinces' matches in Europe and the league. Welsh and Scottish viewers don't have this option and have to spend a greater amount per month on 2 different subscriptions.

Do you deny this?

How does that prove the league is setup for the Irish?

marty2086 wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

No it wasn't, you said it 'proves its a league set up to benefit the Irish before anyone else.

The Irish have an option for a single subscription to all provinces' matches in Europe and the league. Welsh and Scottish viewers don't have this option and have to spend a greater amount per month on 2 different subscriptions.

Do you deny this?

How does that prove the league is setup for the Irish?

The Irish have an option for a single subscription to all provinces' matches in Europe and the league. Welsh and Scottish viewers don't have this option and have to spend a greater amount per month on 2 different subscriptions.

Do you deny this?

geoff999rugby wrote:Ok coming late to this debate - if you can call it that

Are the various terrestrial components still in place next year?
So Sky has lost the 26 counties rights - what is happening to the UK rights (including NI)
Can someone summarise ?

Premier Sports are to take on the rights with the FTA coverage to stay, detail is very thin on the ground whether it will vary or stay as is

RugbyFan100 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

No it wasn't, you said it 'proves its a league set up to benefit the Irish before anyone else.

The Irish have an option for a single subscription to all provinces' matches in Europe and the league. Welsh and Scottish viewers don't have this option and have to spend a greater amount per month on 2 different subscriptions.

Do you deny this?

Why?  Who is to blame?  Everybody not happy...again?   But didn't speak out....again?

The Irish have an option for a single subscription to all provinces' matches in Europe and the league. Welsh and Scottish viewers don't have this option and have to spend a greater amount per month on 2 different subscriptions.

Do you deny this?

There you go again.... another classic Phillism. I'm enjoying this. I'll drag a few more Phillisms out of you if you stick with the argument long enough.

Why? The Welsh and Scots have no voice at the broadcasting rights negotiating table? They want the irish negotiators to look after them? They want to stay away from the boardroom discussions?

SecretFly wrote:

There you go again.... another classic Phillism. I'm enjoying this. I'll drag a few more Phillisms out of you if you stick with the argument long enough.

Why? The Welsh and Scots have no voice at the broadcasting rights negotiating table? They want the irish negotiators to look after them? They want to stay away from the boardroom discussions?

The Irish have an option for a single subscription to all provinces' matches in Europe and the league. Welsh and Scottish viewers don't have this option and have to spend a greater amount per month on 2 different subscriptions.

Do you deny this?

geoff999rugby wrote:Ok coming late to this debate - if you can call it that

Are the various terrestrial components still in place next year?
So Sky has lost the 26 counties rights - what is happening to the UK rights (including NI)
Can someone summarise ?

Sky are it seems out of everything and some other outfit in the UK are going to take care of the coverage details for the UK.... don't ask me who they are - but they ain't wanted, it seems.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

No it wasn't, you said it 'proves its a league set up to benefit the Irish before anyone else.

The Irish have an option for a single subscription to all provinces' matches in Europe and the league. Welsh and Scottish viewers don't have this option and have to spend a greater amount per month on 2 different subscriptions.

Do you deny this?

How does that prove the league is setup for the Irish?

The Irish have an option for a single subscription to all provinces' matches in Europe and the league. Welsh and Scottish viewers don't have this option and have to spend a greater amount per month on 2 different subscriptions.

Do you deny this?

Phil you're up to your old tricks

You have claimed it is setup to favour the Irish yet have not been able to say how it is

Do you have any clue how a tender actually works?

RugbyFan100 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

There you go again.... another classic Phillism. I'm enjoying this. I'll drag a few more Phillisms out of you if you stick with the argument long enough.

Why? The Welsh and Scots have no voice at the broadcasting rights negotiating table? They want the irish negotiators to look after them? They want to stay away from the boardroom discussions?

The Irish have an option for a single subscription to all provinces' matches in Europe and the league. Welsh and Scottish viewers don't have this option and have to spend a greater amount per month on 2 different subscriptions.

Do you deny this?

Good to have you back Phil. Why are you so afraid of your Phil identity? He was a bit of a drag on the unending financial stuff, but overall, he wasn't a bad character to inhabit. Stop being embarrassed and just resume where you left off.

My name is not Phil.

You simply can't deny it. It's there ^ for all to see. The league is run BY the Irish FOR the Irish.

SecretFly wrote:
Good to have you back Phil.  Why are you so afraid of your Phil identity?  He was a bit of a drag on the unending financial stuff, but overall, he wasn't a bad character to inhabit.  Stop being embarrassed and just resume where you left off.

My name is not Phil

Or else this is someone like DOD having an old laugh and adopting a persona he knows will bite. Whichever it is.... the craic is mighty.

What tv rights were put out for bidding. What do the Italians get?

Thanks Fly - but what is happening to the various terrestrial elements
TG4, BBC NI, Alba, BBC Wales ?

Sky are out of Europe next year which means other than Internationals they only have the Top14
That will say me some money.

I am Assuming NI is part of the UK in these deals.
If we still get all games on BBC NI then to be honest I wont bother whoever they are

I am guessing the Italians will remain a totally separate deal as they are now.

No 7&1/2 wrote:What tv rights were put out for bidding.  What do the Italians get?

I hope they get their arses kicked! Given they voted against our holding of the WC Oh I ain't sore or nothing..............

RugbyFan100 wrote:My name is not Phil.

You simply can't deny it. It's there ^ for all to see. The league is run BY the Irish FOR the Irish.

You're an idiot of the highest order Phil

So Eir bid the highest amount yet its setup to favour the Irish?

Tenders are blind, no one sees what a tender is worth until after the process is closed. So yet again you are making stuff up and can't provide proof to substantiate other than continually insisting you are right about it

PhilBB never posted on the International section. Never. However, RugbyFan100 posts there frequently. Different people, people.

Ha. True enough. They would need to be considered though in a discussion of whether the league is set u to benefit the Irish. If they are doing thir own deal seems to suggest that the Italians will get exactly what they want which dampens any pro irish thing going on. Depending on what the league offers does have am impact on this though. Ie if they said that some.home Welsh matches must go to free tv it impacts it etc. I don't know exactly what was up for grabs though hence my question.

The Oracle wrote:PhilBB never posted on the International section. Never.  However, RugbyFan100 posts there frequently.  Different people, people.  

Same father? Twins? The second Triplet? One of the Quads?

He just gotta be the same blood as Phil. He sticks around and lets out a few more irresistible and he's cooked and branded as Absolutely Phil Mark1...or an Irish imposter....

How do I report? I'm not remotely concerned but when things get serious, I'll meet the challenge head on.

The ! button at the top of each post.

You mean red flag the man?

Oh no. Not my style unfortunately Have never indulged in that public shaming stuff.

I'll refrain from calling this man Phill. But I'm no fool and I'll continue to believe he has a very close relationship with the man called Phill or some other poster is having fun pretending to be him by stealing all Phills best online mannerisms.

SecretFly wrote: I'll continue to believe he has a very close relationship with the man called Phill or some other poster is having fun pretending to be him by stealing all Phills best online mannerisms.

Then you really need to get over your bizarre obsession. I have no connection whatsoever with this Phil person.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

SecretFly wrote: I'll continue to believe he has a very close relationship with the man called Phill or some other poster is having fun pretending to be him by stealing all Phills best online mannerisms.

Then you really need to get over your bizarre obsession. I have no connection whatsoever with this Phil person.

Give over. 'Phil' is now off the agenda. Respect the decision. I'll believe what I believe, regardless. Back to the topic and how Irish rugby ...again...spoiled things for the rest of you in terms of the Pro14 product.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

SecretFly wrote: I'll continue to believe he has a very close relationship with the man called Phill or some other poster is having fun pretending to be him by stealing all Phills best online mannerisms.

Then you really need to get over your bizarre obsession. I have no connection whatsoever with this Phil person.

Bit like your bizarre obsession with the Pro14 being rigged for the Irish yet not being able to substantiate it

Maybe you should start a blog about this kind of thing

I guess consumers have a choice to make in Wales and Scotland. New subscriptions to Premier Sports will be interesting to see in those areas.

marty2086 wrote:

Bit like your bizarre obsession with the Pro14 being rigged for the Irish yet not being able to substantiate it

I can easily substantiate it:

-The final is normally in Ireland
-The tv deal means it costs less for viewers in Ireland to watch their team than it does in Wales and Scotland
- A Certain Irish team gets to play on its preferred kick off time more or less every home game. Othet teams don't
- The Irish players are officiated by their work colleagues against players who are not (although this does happen to other teams too)

I could go on, and these are indicators as to why some people think this league is inferior to others, has a lesser product, is unfairly balanced and why they don't turn up to watch or promote the league in a positive light etc. But we won't get anywhere with this as you'll no doubt refuse to acknowledge these points.

Maybe you should start a blog about this kind of thing

? Why would I start a blog?

Italy rugby fan. You seem to have a blind spot in discussing this. What budding rights were put out by the league?

marty2086 wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Phil... your logic always seems to go AWOL when caught.  SKY do not want to be involved because the UK bit of the Pro14 broadcasting package doesn't interest them.  if they thought it would make them sufficient money to please them in terms of advertising etc...they'd keep bidding.  It obviously in their eyes doesn't fit the picture.  Not viable in their eyes to even attempt to hold on to the Uk bit without the Irish bit.

My name is not Phil. I don't disagree with any of that.

Back to the BBC and their role.

Yes, as you keep saying........with absolutely no meat on the bones of your argument. What on earth are you talking about?

Phil, you are the Carlsberg of irony

No 7&1/2 wrote:Italy rugby fan. You seem to have a blind spot in discussing this. What budding rights were put out by the league?

We're not discussing it because nobody has ant details. Italian rights are usually negotiated way after the UK and Ireland rights. They started this or last season without a broadcaster in place if I remember correctly.

No one gas any details.of the bidding rights which were put out to tender? Can't really.claim.bias then can you?

RugbyFan100 wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Bit like your bizarre obsession with the Pro14 being rigged for the Irish yet not being able to substantiate it

I can easily substantiate it:

-The final is normally in Ireland
-The tv deal means it costs less for viewers in Ireland to watch their team than it does in Wales and Scotland
- A Certain Irish team gets to play on its preferred kick off time more or less every home game. Othet teams don't
- The Irish players are officiated by their work colleagues against players who are not (although this does happen to other teams too)

I could go on, and these are indicators as to why some people think this league is inferior to others, has a lesser product, is unfairly balanced and why they don't turn up to watch or promote the league in a positive light etc. But we won't get anywhere with this as you'll no doubt refuse to acknowledge these points.

Again showing how clueless you are

Teams bid to host the final, this years final will be the forth year of choosing a host ahead of time. In 2015 only Ulster bid, not sure how that's rigged? In 2016 Edinburgh beat Leinster to it so I can see how it was rigged for the Irish there. In 2017 Leinster won the rights as I believe no one else bid for it, again I can see how the fix was in there. 2018 will see the final in Dublin again as it was the first time Wales bid to host it, this time in Cardiff at the Principality but they lost out because there are concerts on in the build up so the stadium wasn't fully available for preparations. The host is decided by the board made up of the unions and clubs, the Chairman being a Welshman but Im sure he's really Irish

A certain Irish team being Ulster? Who said it's the preferred kick off? You? The kick offs are decided by the broadcaster who it suits

Their not their work colleagues but Im trying to think where Ive heard that before

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Maybe you should start a blog about this kind of thing

? Why would I start a blog?

It's what some crackpots have been known to do

RugbyFan100 wrote: -The final is normally in Ireland  

The final up to 4 years ago was in the country of the team at the top of the league - usually Irish.
Then it was decided to make it subject to a bidding system.
First year only one bid Ulster
Since then it has been to Scotland.
It hasn't been to Wales because no Welsh bids have been received.
No conspiracy

RugbyFan100 wrote: -The tv deal means it costs less for viewers in Ireland to watch their team than it does in Wales and Scotland  

Not for Northern Ireland.
The Welsh and Scottish boards have representatives on the negotiating teams.
Maybe the problem is being in the same nation as the English with its biggest market.
No conspiracy

RugbyFan100 wrote: - A Certain Irish team gets to play on its preferred kick off time more or less every home game. Othet teams don't  

You are obviously talking about Ulster.
Firstly dates are dictated by the TV companies.
Secondly its a myth - take last year 7 of the 14 competitive games at Ravenhill were on a Saturday.
No conspiracy

RugbyFan100 wrote: - The Irish players are officiated by their work colleagues against players who are not (although this does happen to other teams too)  

Irish refs ref Irish matches in the same number as Welsh refs referee Welsh matches.
The problem is the other countries do not pull their weight in terms of referee numbers.
Ireland is under no obligation to change a system that works structurally.
No conspiracy[/quote]

geoff999rugby wrote:

.
Secondly its a myth - take last year 7 of the 14 competitive games at Ravenhill were on a Saturday.

It is not a myth.

Of Ulster's last 72 home league games - 60 have been played on a Friday evening.

geoff999rugby wrote:


Irish refs ref Irish matches in the same number as Welsh refs referee Welsh matches.
The problem is the other countries do not pull their weight in terms of referee numbers.
Ireland is under no obligation to change a system that works structurally.
No conspiracy

IRFU owns the 4 teams. IRFU employs the officials = conflict of interest.

Wouldn't happen in a competent sports competition.

Tv normally dictates scheduling unless the league gives formal demands.in the bidding rights. What were those by the way?

Give it a few posts and it will be claimed the Aviva are desperate to include the Welsh teams, and that will restore the Welsh as the top club teams in n the world, and prove once and for all that it's us Irish been working against them all along.

marty2086 wrote: Wales bid to host it, this time in Cardiff at the Principality but they lost out because there are concerts on in the build up so the stadium wasn't fully available for preparations.

That is not very accurate.

The Principality Stadium could have been used, but for some reason or another, they decided it couldn't and used all those excuses that you have typed.

How.about a joint British and Irish league split into 2 conferences?

marty2086 wrote:

Their not their work colleagues but Im trying to think where Ive heard that before  

You've probably been told it a thousand times before if we're honest but unfortunately you choose to refute it.

In competent sports competitions, there have been denials of takeovers (Altrad Gloucester, plus I think Arsenal or West Ham had an issue with ownership) This is due to massive conflict of interest.

But in the Pro14 - the teams are owned by the same organisations - yet they play against each other, and against teams that are independently owned. What a nonsense league.

No 7&1/2 wrote:How.about a joint British and Irish league split into 2 conferences?

RugbyFan100 wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:


Irish refs ref Irish matches in the same number as Welsh refs referee Welsh matches.
The problem is the other countries do not pull their weight in terms of referee numbers.
Ireland is under no obligation to change a system that works structurally.
No conspiracy

IRFU owns the 4 teams. IRFU employs the officials = conflict of interest.

Wouldn't happen in a competent sports competition.

RugbyFan, you might as well just drop it. There is not one Irish member on here who will even give your opinion one ounce of credence as it does not suit them to.

But the same arguments all make sense when you talk about the Champions Cup or Wayne Barnes.

Nah. That was phils idea would never work for all the reason previously stated. Ie whisper it....The irish mafia....

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote: Wales bid to host it, this time in Cardiff at the Principality but they lost out because there are concerts on in the build up so the stadium wasn't fully available for preparations.

That is not very accurate.

The Principality Stadium could have been used, but for some reason or another, they decided it couldn't and used all those excuses that you have typed.

So theres nothing on in the stadium in week before the game?

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote: Wales bid to host it, this time in Cardiff at the Principality but they lost out because there are concerts on in the build up so the stadium wasn't fully available for preparations.

That is not very accurate.

The Principality Stadium could have been used, but for some reason or another, they decided it couldn't and used all those excuses that you have typed.

It's all about convenience. The league is set up to very conveniently have the final held in Ireland most of the time. They know how difficult it is for other countries to get past the criteria and have large stadiums available for it. Just like everything else, the huge logistical problems faced in the league mean the solution, (often the "only solution possible") is the one that just so happens to favour the Irish teams and fans. Funny that.

LordDowlais wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:


Irish refs ref Irish matches in the same number as Welsh refs referee Welsh matches.
The problem is the other countries do not pull their weight in terms of referee numbers.
Ireland is under no obligation to change a system that works structurally.
No conspiracy

IRFU owns the 4 teams. IRFU employs the officials = conflict of interest.

Wouldn't happen in a competent sports competition.

RugbyFan, you might as well just drop it. There is not one Irish member on here who will even give your opinion one ounce of credence as it does not suit them to.

But the same arguments all make sense when you talk about the Champions Cup or Wayne Barnes.  

Certainly seems that way. Whether it's huge delusion just denial or cognitive dissonance - who knows.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote: Wales bid to host it, this time in Cardiff at the Principality but they lost out because there are concerts on in the build up so the stadium wasn't fully available for preparations.

That is not very accurate.

The Principality Stadium could have been used, but for some reason or another, they decided it couldn't and used all those excuses that you have typed.

It's all about convenience. The league is set up to very conveniently have the final held in Ireland most of the time. They know how difficult it is for other countries to get past the criteria and have large stadiums available for it. Just like everything else, the huge logistical problems faced in the league mean the solution, (often the "only solution possible") is the one that just so happens to favour the Irish teams and fans. Funny that.

Get past the criteria? The Welsh are dumping a tonne of dirt on the pitch in the week before the final, not only will that create problems for the playing surface it takes time to clear

I like how if a group of Irish, Welsh, Scots, Italians and an Englishman make a decision it's because things are rigged in favour of the Irish even though theres plenty of evidence to show that its not the case

marty2086 wrote:

Get past the criteria? The Welsh are dumping a tonne of dirt on the pitch in the week before the final, not only will that create problems for the playing surface it takes time to clear

I like how if a group of Irish, Welsh, Scots, Italians and an Englishman make a decision it's because things are rigged in favour of the Irish even though theres plenty of evidence to show that its not the case

I like how suddenly, for 1 year, they let a team with stadium with 18,000 capacity hold the final. And they still couldn't win it.

Just start watching the Welsh prem. It ll do away with your angst.