The Future for the PRO14 - Part 4 - A Global Club Championship

First topic message reminder :

Following the Union Balldance of the last 12 months, another union has finally joined the party - SARU. The PRO12 league is gone with Martin Anayi's announcement of a global club championship involving conferences of teams from five unions with the potential for more to be included.

At first glance, it looks like a smart play - albeit somewhat fortuitous with SARU having to shed two teams from the Super Rugby competition. It brings together a lot more viewers that are attractive to media companies and business sponsors. Celtic Rugby Ltd still owns the competition with just its three founding shareholders - IRFU, SRU and WRU. No club or franchise owners involved. FIR failed to meet the required performance that would have made them shareholders at the beginning of July. And SARU weren't persuasive enough to get their seat at the table just yet. Rumours of a new company being set up failed to materialise. But they still signed up to a six-year agreement with £6m in funding each year.

It's not clear if this money is coming from SARU or directly from SuperSport, their broadcast partner. It is SARU who have signed the agreement to provide two teams so presumably the financial buck stops with them. It's more likely the £6m is a participation fee paid by SARU, similar to what FIR was charged when it joined in 2010. Media reports have said that the monies will be split equally amongst the 12 teams with travel and logistics costs for SA trips met centrally by Celtic Rugby Ltd since these will vary for clubs depending on whether they play one or both teams in SA.

Next on Anayi's agenda is the negotiation of a new media deal involving PPV and terrestrial TV, and online platforms. SuperSport may have already got their slice - all 20-22 home games involving Cheetahs and Kings plus some/all of the finals stages. Or perhaps not. Sky and possibly other PPV broadcasters such as Eir Sport may be willing to bid more to be the primary broadcaster for a higher profile, expanded Championship. But Anayi will want to keep a slice for terrestrial TV since they have a much better viewership reach. The current deal is for four years. Would a six-year deal be a better strategic move to guarantee increased revenues for a longer period? It would link in with the duration of the SARU agreement. And it would outlast the current participation agreement for the European Cup run by EPCR.

Further expansion is obviously the other key consideration with possibly other teams from SA, US and Europe coming on board. The danger is that Celtic Rugby goes too far and repeats the mistakes of Super Rugby. Better to build slowly to see if they will still come.

The coming season will be a fascinating one to see how the new structure and Championship beds in. Will attendances increase? Will there be more surprise results and potentially another new team to lift the cup next May?

Roll on 1 September.



Further info on PRO14 can be found here:
http://www.pro14rugby.org/2017/08/01/guinness-pro14-championship-qa/

The Oracle wrote:What a lovely, warm and joyous discussion forum I’ve joined! Whoops.

Should'a back-read a little more.... or a lot more... before joining.  This is usual fare.  Insults, mockery, tomfoolery, nonsensery, fury, balderdashery, pomposity, regionality, stupidity....... and that's just my traits.

It’ll be interesting to see what value emerges from the combination of the BBC/Premier Sports terrestrial/PPV rights in GB. The eirSports deal who have licenses for ROI and NI is likely to be 5-6m annual for up to a possible 44 home games approx with secondary FTA rights to TG4 and BBC NI topping that up. BBC W & Alba & NI should generate about 7.5/8m. It’s dependent on the split of matches with Premier but obviously will focus on their respective territories’ teams. Premier would then have GB transmission rights to Irish home and some away matches and whatever other Welsh/Scottish matches don’t run on BBC. Part of its proposal may include showing some matches on its sister channel, FreeSports, an FTA channel that already operates in the UK. And perhaps its App and streaming service may pick up additional viewers. I reckon at least a doubling of the current Celtic TV deals, excl rights/deals in SA and Italy territories with SuperSport and EuroSport.

The Oracle wrote:What a lovely, warm and joyous discussion forum I’ve joined! Whoops.

Welcome to the world of V2 and some of it's members who have a disturbing personality that makes them crave to always be in the right and never, EVER be wrong.

When they do find their opinions to be questioned, they just go on the attack, with a cocktail of insults and p1ss takes.

You'll soon get used to it.

Pot Hale wrote: I reckon at least a doubling of the current Celtic TV deals, excl rights/deals in SA and Italy territories with SuperSport and EuroSport.  

The Celtic tv deals currently rake in £11.5m ? So we are looking at around just less than £30m per annum in total including the SA and ITA deals? That's very optimistic in my opinion.

LordDowlais wrote:

The Oracle wrote:What a lovely, warm and joyous discussion forum I’ve joined! Whoops.

Welcome to the world of V2 and some of it's members who have a disturbing personality that makes them crave to always be in the right and never, EVER be wrong.

When they do find their opinions to be questioned, they just go on the attack, with a cocktail of insults and p1ss takes.

You'll soon get used to it.

Yeah sorry that some Welsh fans don't like loosing and blame the Irish for all the problems, regardless if there crazy conspiracy theories are repeatedly proved to be fantasy.

See when a clown car pulls up, and a load of clowns get out and act like clowns I assume that ,yes,indeed they are clowns so greet them accordingly.

carpet baboon wrote:Yeah sorry that some Welsh fans don't like loosing

Oh so we are supposed to like loosing now are we ?

carpet baboon wrote:blame the Irish for all the problems, regardless if there crazy conspiracy theories are repeatedly proved to be fantasy

So they are not opinions, they are conspiracy theories ? Seriously the arrogance of some of the Irish members on here is staggering.

carpet baboon wrote:See when a clown car pulls up, and a load of clowns get out and act like clowns I assume that ,yes,indeed they are clowns so greet them accordingly.

So only Irish members opinions on the Pro12/14 count for anything on here, anyone who has a different opinion, or disagrees are all conspiracy theorists and clowns ?

When your opinion is that a league involving 4 nations (now 5) is being run for the benefit of just one, and refs are cheating in games, and your proof is that one nation has in recent history been more successful and a minority of fans claim it's a fix, then yes that is an opinion but it's also a groundless conspiracy theory.
Your entitled to think whatever you want, just like I'm entitled to call a clown car full of clowns entertainment.

carpet baboon wrote:When your opinion is that a league involving 4 nations (now 5) is being run for the benefit of just one, and refs are cheating in games, and your proof is that one nation has in recent history been more successful and a minority of fans claim it's a fix, then yes that is an opinion but it's also a groundless conspiracy theory.
Your entitled to think whatever you want, just like I'm entitled to call a clown car full of clowns entertainment.

Then I suggest you read this thread properly.

I have given a proper reply to what I think about the referees yesterday, yet none of you replied and just wanted to mock RugbyFan. Such is the way with some members on here.

Just for you to know, this is what my solution would be:-

LordDowlais wrote:Hi SF.

Logistically the Pro14 is a nightmare. But I do not want to get into that.

As for the refereeing situation, I have always said on here that I could not give two hoots what nationality they are, but what I would like to see is a group of elite referees employed by the league. They could have a head ref so to speak, Nigel Owens if you like, he could then assess the refs from each country and put forward any he feels are ready for elite training by the league. They could be paid by the league, and each union who submits teams into the league can be charged by a form of league/ref fees. These referees can then all meet together once a month or whatever and discuss how they should be going about their business, so then, we do not have an Irish ref reffing in an Irish style, or a Welsh ref reffing in a Welsh style, we have a group of elite Pro14 refs, reffing in a Pro14 style.

I don't know, perhaps I am asking too much, but what I do know is, the current situation we find ourselves in is not ideal.

For some reason nobody wanted to reply to this, why would that be I wonder ?

The referees have to be employed by national unions and have a pathway I think. For insurance and other such World Rugby requirements.

That's why an organisation (Union) employing them and owning domestic rugby teams as well is just ridiculous.

RugbyFan100 wrote:The referees have to be employed by national unions and have a pathway I think. For insurance and other such World Rugby requirements.

I have checked the interweb on this, and I cannot find anything about it. I am not saying you are wrong mind, but I cannot see how the Pro14 employing the refs could be a problem.

LordDowlais wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:The referees have to be employed by national unions and have a pathway I think. For insurance and other such World Rugby requirements.

I have checked the interweb on this, and I cannot find anything about it. I am not saying you are wrong mind, but I cannot see how the Pro14 employing the refs could be a problem.

They have to be aligned to a Union to referee professional rugby. So even if the Pro14 starts paying their salary, or a proportion of it, they will still be aligned to 1 particular nation in the competition.

LordDowlais wrote:Just for you to know, this is what my solution would be:-

LordDowlais wrote:Hi SF.

Logistically the Pro14 is a nightmare. But I do not want to get into that.

As for the refereeing situation, I have always said on here that I could not give two hoots what nationality they are, but what I would like to see is a group of elite referees employed by the league. They could have a head ref so to speak, Nigel Owens if you like, he could then assess the refs from each country and put forward any he feels are ready for elite training by the league. They could be paid by the league, and each union who submits teams into the league can be charged by a form of league/ref fees. These referees can then all meet together once a month or whatever and discuss how they should be going about their business, so then, we do not have an Irish ref reffing in an Irish style, or a Welsh ref reffing in a Welsh style, we have a group of elite Pro14 refs, reffing in a Pro14 style.

I don't know, perhaps I am asking too much, but what I do know is, the current situation we find ourselves in is not ideal.

For some reason nobody wanted to reply to this, why would that be I wonder ?

Now.  

Firstly, you'll admit that you are you... and you are you alone.  Therefore it's grand that you don't give two hoots what nationality the ref is (neither do I)...but never will you make me believe that that is the norm all over Wales.  There is an evident hostility to the concept of Irish refs in many quarters and it has nothing to do with who pays them and everything to do with thinking they allow their National bias to make the calls that make Welsh teams suffer.  That's what many of us this side of the sea think.  Now how do the Welsh prove us wrong?

By trying things your way?  

A respected head ref and a panel of refs he chooses ...employed by Pro14.  Absolutely NO quotas as that would infer even this system is dubious unless all Nations get a fair smattering of their own refs on any reffing panel.  So Nigel, or another, or two or three head refs, decide on their panel.  And that panel is educated on an overall unified reffing 'rulebook' - a way of reffing that suits everyone.

So far so good.  Now let's say Nigel happens to think more Irish refs than Welsh ones fit the criteria of refs that are ready to serve the Pro14..................  everyone still okay with that?  I mean are all fans in the four Regions going to be okay with that and go along with it.  No more booing the Irish ref if he doesn't see what they see?  No more threads devoted to cheating Irish refs?  
That'll be good if that were to happen.  I'd need a testing period to prove that to me..... say four years of the project and if the criticisms still keep popping up that Irish refs just want Welsh sides to lose, then I say scrap the cozy agreement of sharing refs under Pro14 umbrella.

Now...... scenario number two.  Nigel decides that more Welsh refs fit the bill.  That would then be a Welsh ref declaring that Welsh refs are better refs in general and that Pro14 needs their increased participation.  Now true or not (and you could turn it into an Irish head ref saying that more Irish refs fit the bill) I know that scenario would  start a new turf war of the battle between the Nations

So without using quotas (as that proves distrust even in the new system) how is the new system any different to the present one?  Distrust will be there - lack of belief in the new system will exist...and refs will still be booed off the field because one side believes Nationality was a factor in the refs performance on the day.

You constantly think Nationality isn't the problem pertaining to Irish refs, Lord. Good for you. I'm afraid I always do.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:The referees have to be employed by national unions and have a pathway I think. For insurance and other such World Rugby requirements.

I have checked the interweb on this, and I cannot find anything about it. I am not saying you are wrong mind, but I cannot see how the Pro14 employing the refs could be a problem.

They have to be aligned to a Union to referee professional rugby. So even if the Pro14 starts paying their salary, or a proportion of it, they will still be aligned to 1 particular nation in the competition.

They can still be aligned, but they just need to be employed by the league. Trust me, I have had this debate umpteen times with our fellow irish members on here, and I have trawled the web about it, and there is nothing solid that says that the refs must be "employed" by the unions.

And the complaints about the nationality of refs will drift away....
The complaints about refs and accusations of incompetence and bias are there in the prem so altering this won't change much.

LordDowlais wrote:

They can still be aligned, but they just need to be employed by the league. Trust me, I have had this debate umpteen times with our fellow irish members on here, and I have trawled the web about it, and there is nothing solid that says that the refs must be "employed" by the unions.

What difference would it make if they got paid by the league? Peter Fitzgibbon would still be Irish, and a development officer for the IRFU.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

They can still be aligned, but they just need to be employed by the league. Trust me, I have had this debate umpteen times with our fellow irish members on here, and I have trawled the web about it, and there is nothing solid that says that the refs must be "employed" by the unions.

What difference would it make if they got paid by the league? Peter Fitzgibbon would still be Irish, and a development officer for the IRFU.

Correct.

and QED.

So no Irish refs in the Pro14 at all?

LordDowlais wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:The referees have to be employed by national unions and have a pathway I think. For insurance and other such World Rugby requirements.

I have checked the interweb on this, and I cannot find anything about it. I am not saying you are wrong mind, but I cannot see how the Pro14 employing the refs could be a problem.

They have to be aligned to a Union to referee professional rugby. So even if the Pro14 starts paying their salary, or a proportion of it, they will still be aligned to 1 particular nation in the competition.

They can still be aligned, but they just need to be employed by the league. Trust me, I have had this debate umpteen times with our fellow irish members on here, and I have trawled the web about it, and there is nothing solid that says that the refs must be "employed" by the unions.

You should really read interview with aspiring referees. They want to ref at the highest level as thats of cpurse where the money is and being perceived to be biased does nothing to further their careers.

The most annoying thing here is that you seem to think this is a problem that is exclusive to the pro14 when super rugby has a similar system and in fact this is perceived to be a problem in every sport. Howard Webb is famous for being accused to being biased towards Man United despite having no links to the club as far as I'm aware.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:The most annoying thing here is that you seem to think this is a problem that is exclusive to the pro14 when super rugby has a similar system and in fact this is perceived to be a problem in every sport.

Christ on a bike, I wish people would read the thread properly and stop making assumptions.  

So tell me, what has made you come to the conclusion that I think this a problem exclusive to the Pro14 ?

LordDowlais wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:The most annoying thing here is that you seem to think this is a problem that is exclusive to the pro14 when super rugby has a similar system and in fact this is perceived to be a problem in every sport.

Christ on a bike, I wish people would read the thread properly and stop making assumptions.  

So tell me, what has made you come to the conclusion that I think this a problem exclusive to the Pro14 ?

You constantly saying that Irish refs are biased towards Irish teams despite the fact Leinster have never done well under Fitzgibbons officiating. I'm also not just talking about this thread.

LordDowlais wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:The most annoying thing here is that you seem to think this is a problem that is exclusive to the pro14 when super rugby has a similar system and in fact this is perceived to be a problem in every sport.

Christ on a bike, I wish people would read the thread properly and stop making assumptions.  

So tell me, what has made you come to the conclusion that I think this a problem exclusive to the Pro14 ?

It's always marked down as one of the main sticking points in deciding why the Pro14 is shyte in comparison to the 'real' leagues in England and France. It's always set down as a main bums-on-seats dissuader.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:You constantly saying that Irish refs are biased towards Irish teams despite the fact Leinster have never done well under Fitzgibbons refereeing.

Again, read the thread properly, and come back to me where I have "constantly" said the Irish refs are biased.

In fact, I have said this with regards to the Irish refs:-

LordDowlais wrote:Look it might just be a matter of coincidence, and it is probably because they are crap refs, but it was happening.

Nothing about bias there.

SecretFly wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:The most annoying thing here is that you seem to think this is a problem that is exclusive to the pro14 when super rugby has a similar system and in fact this is perceived to be a problem in every sport.

Christ on a bike, I wish people would read the thread properly and stop making assumptions.  

So tell me, what has made you come to the conclusion that I think this a problem exclusive to the Pro14 ?

It's always marked down as one of the main sticking points in deciding why the Pro14 is shyte in comparison to the 'real' leagues in England and France.  It's always set down as a main bums-on-seats dissuader.

Yes but we could take that all away with my proposal.

We would just be on here then talking about crap refs then.

But at least we could get away from all the conflict of interest and the what not. But let's not forget, just because us Welsh talk about it on here, lets not hide from the fact that others are always pointing at our league and saying the same thing.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:You constantly saying that Irish refs are biased towards Irish teams despite the fact Leinster have never done well under Fitzgibbons officiating. I'm also not just talking about this thread.

Seriously ?



P.S this is regarding the bit you edited on.

LordDowlais wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:You constantly saying that Irish refs are biased towards Irish teams despite the fact Leinster have never done well under Fitzgibbons refereeing.

Again, read the thread properly, and come back to me where I have "constantly" said the Irish refs are biased.

In fact, I have said this with regards to the Irish refs:-

LordDowlais wrote:Look it might just be a matter of coincidence, and it is probably because they are crap refs, but it was happening.

Nothing about bias there.

So what exactly is your problem with the referring situation then? Have you changed your opinion on the matter? Please don't try say you have never accused the Irish refs of being biased.

There are jobs within my organisation where there will be challenges to other people who work here. I've never felt those challenges needed to be made by someone outside the organisation due to being worried about being paid by the same people. Why the big deal here? And what would change by a different name on the pay check; it's just superficial and as.rugbyfan says he would always see bias anyway based on nationality.

LordDowlais wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:The most annoying thing here is that you seem to think this is a problem that is exclusive to the pro14 when super rugby has a similar system and in fact this is perceived to be a problem in every sport.

Christ on a bike, I wish people would read the thread properly and stop making assumptions.  

So tell me, what has made you come to the conclusion that I think this a problem exclusive to the Pro14 ?

It's always marked down as one of the main sticking points in deciding why the Pro14 is shyte in comparison to the 'real' leagues in England and France.  It's always set down as a main bums-on-seats dissuader.

Yes but we could take that all away with my proposal.

We would just be on here then talking about crap refs then.

But at least we could get away from all the conflict of interest and the what not. But let's not forget, just because us Welsh talk about it on here, lets not hide from the fact that others are always pointing at our league and saying the same thing.

You read my more detailed answer to your proposal above?  You still seriously think that stamping 'Pro14 product' on all refs that ref Pro14 games - and making their pay checks payable by this entity called Pro14 - you still seriously think that's going to stop a fervent Blues or Dragons fan from calling it like they see it if they lose a game under what they'd see as 'dodgy' reffing by a distinctly Irish ref?  You seriously think they'd forget he was Irish simply because this thing called Pro14 pay him directly ..rather than indirectly, like happens now?

LordDowlais wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:The referees have to be employed by national unions and have a pathway I think. For insurance and other such World Rugby requirements.

I have checked the interweb on this, and I cannot find anything about it. I am not saying you are wrong mind, but I cannot see how the Pro14 employing the refs could be a problem.

They have to be aligned to a Union to referee professional rugby. So even if the Pro14 starts paying their salary, or a proportion of it, they will still be aligned to 1 particular nation in the competition.

They can still be aligned, but they just need to be employed by the league. Trust me, I have had this debate umpteen times with our fellow irish members on here, and I have trawled the web about it, and there is nothing solid that says that the refs must be "employed" by the unions.

He didn't say they had to be employed by them they do have to be aligned to a union though, check out what happened with Steve Walsh

SecretFly wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:The most annoying thing here is that you seem to think this is a problem that is exclusive to the pro14 when super rugby has a similar system and in fact this is perceived to be a problem in every sport.

Christ on a bike, I wish people would read the thread properly and stop making assumptions.  

So tell me, what has made you come to the conclusion that I think this a problem exclusive to the Pro14 ?

It's always marked down as one of the main sticking points in deciding why the Pro14 is shyte in comparison to the 'real' leagues in England and France.  It's always set down as a main bums-on-seats dissuader.

Yes but we could take that all away with my proposal.

We would just be on here then talking about crap refs then.

But at least we could get away from all the conflict of interest and the what not. But let's not forget, just because us Welsh talk about it on here, lets not hide from the fact that others are always pointing at our league and saying the same thing.

You read my more detailed answer to your proposal above?  You still seriously think that stamping 'Pro14 product' on all refs that ref Pro14 games - and making their pay checks payable by this entity called Pro14 - you still seriously think that's going to stop a fervent Blues or Dragons fan from calling it like they see it if they lose a game under what they'd see as 'dodgy' reffing by a distinctly Irish ref?  You seriously think they'd forget he was Irish simply because this thing called Pro14 pay him directly ..rather than indirectly, like happens now?

I am trying to get away with all the bias talk, yes we have all said it, in the heat of the moment, but what I do not like is where we are in a situation, potentially, where people can question the credibility of our league because of union run clubs and officials, and that is not just privvy to the Irish model, it has now crept it's way into Wales, with Dragons, and both the Scottish sides.

Also, the Scottish and Italian unions are not really pulling their weight when it comes to providing refs, something the SH are miles ahead of us with, whilst using the same model. In my opinion, in a perfect world, no ref should ref a team from their own country. But that will never happen, so we just need a team of elite refs employed by the league, all singing from the same hymn sheet, all following the same directives, all the same interpretations.

Am I asking too much ?

It won't end the talk of bias. It won't. The 'bias talk' will go on. Rugby fan above blurted out the problem clearly.... what difference does it make, "Peter Fitzgibbon would still be Irish".

So even he's calling out your proposal as unrealistic IN accomplishing the goal you yourself set out for it.

You hope and think it would end National bias talk. I'm saying directly to you, I don't believe it will. People are people. You're Welsh, I'm Irish. In the line of excuses for loses, it's too easy to say the Welsh guy had it in for us...or the Irish guy had it in for us. We're human. That's what Leinster fan is saying to you. We think bias because that's our programming as humans. It happens all over the world. No rules and regulations will make you less Welsh or me less Irish.
So the Nationality thing will ALWAYS be present in a Mutli-National League. You have to live with it if you want Professional top level rugby for your players to play in. We all have to live with that because for now that's the conditions that we have. At the moment none of us could support a worthwhile professional League that is purely domestic.

So if Rugby Fan's ideal were to happen and the Welsh Regions cut loose from Pro14 and joined Aviva Premiership (Anglo/Welsh competition)... I asked this question before: who would ref the Scarlets v Saracens game? An Englishman or a Welshman?

You'll never get refs all using the same interpretations as there's too much complexity and subtlety to the game.

WR stipulates the use of union-affiliated referees. Happens everywhere else in the world. Changing their employer will not change their nationality or perceived bias if people want to see a bias. JP Doyle is Irish-born but developed and registered with the English RFU. Alain Rolland was Irish-born but perceived to be French biased when the occasion suited.

The Championship needs more refs from Scotland and Italy. Full stop. Personally I couldn’t give a flying fig where ref is from. If they’re incompetent, they’re incompetent - where they were born is irrelevant.

SecretFly wrote:
So the Nationality thing will ALWAYS be present in a Mutli-National League.  You have to live with it if you want Professional top level rugby for your players to play in.  

The Rugby Champions Cup ensure a neutral referee is appointed to every fixture when 2 teams of different nationality are playing.

The Pro14 do not.

There really is not much more to it than that.

Pot Hale wrote:WR stipulates the use of union-affiliated referees.  Happens everywhere else in the world.  Changing their employer will not change their nationality or perceived bias if people want to see a bias. JP Doyle is Irish-born but developed and registered with the English RFU.   Alain Rolland was Irish-born but perceived to be French biased when the occasion suited.

The Championship needs more refs from Scotland and Italy.  Full stop. Personally I couldn’t give a flying fig where ref is from.  If they’re incompetent, they’re incompetent - where they were born is irrelevant.

Yeah, but there are more incompetent Welsh ones than Irish ones........................ OOPS!!!!........................... me infuriating bias getting out there.... sorry.............

The richest football league in the world.doesn't even do that so fair play.

No 7&1/2 wrote:The richest football league in the world.doesn't even do that so fair play.

do what?

RugbyFan100 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:
So the Nationality thing will ALWAYS be present in a Mutli-National League.  You have to live with it if you want Professional top level rugby for your players to play in.  

The Rugby Champions Cup ensure a neutral referee is appointed to every fixture when 2 teams of different nationality are playing.

The Pro14 do not.

There really is not much more to it than that.

The Rugby Champions Cup has teams from France (big country with lots of refs) and England (big country with lots of refs) in it. So if the argument is now turning to the Pro14 exclusively using airlifted-in refs from England and France... or even New Zealand and Australia, then so be it. Say so openly. Stop going on about bias in terms of Irish refs shafting Welsh.
If the solution is hired up refs with no apparent affinity to any Nation in the League, then let that be the place the debate goes to.

Talk of bias will never die and I'll explain all that dreary stuff in more detail IF the debate does shift to English and French refs reffing the Pro14 exclusively.

SecretFly wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:
So the Nationality thing will ALWAYS be present in a Mutli-National League.  You have to live with it if you want Professional top level rugby for your players to play in.  

The Rugby Champions Cup ensure a neutral referee is appointed to every fixture when 2 teams of different nationality are playing.

The Pro14 do not.

There really is not much more to it than that.

The Rugby Champions Cup has teams from France (big country with lots of refs) and England (big country with lots of refs) in it.  So if the argument is now turning to the Pro14 exclusively using airlifted-in refs from England and France... or even New Zealand and Australia, then so be it.  Say so openly.  Stop going on about bias in terms of Irish refs shafting Welsh.
If the solution is hired up refs with no apparent affinity to any Nation in the League, then let that be the place the debate goes to.

Talk of bias will never die and I'll explain all that dreary stuff in more detail IF the debate does shift to English and French refs reffing the Pro14 exclusively.

The solution is to swap the referees around, which would result in a neutral referee in every fixture, but they won't do it. Presumably because they can't afford the flight costs because the league doesn't generate enough money to.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:
So the Nationality thing will ALWAYS be present in a Mutli-National League.  You have to live with it if you want Professional top level rugby for your players to play in.  

The Rugby Champions Cup ensure a neutral referee is appointed to every fixture when 2 teams of different nationality are playing.

The Pro14 do not.

There really is not much more to it than that.

This season
JP Doyle - Irish-born - Munster v Racing.
Andrew Brace - Welsh-born - Ospreys v Clermont

SecretFly wrote:It won't end the talk of bias.  It won't.  The 'bias talk' will go on.  Rugby fan above blurted out the problem clearly....  what difference does it make, "Peter Fitzgibbon would still be Irish".

So even he's calling out your proposal as unrealistic IN accomplishing the goal you yourself set out for it.

You hope and think it would end National bias talk.  I'm saying directly to you, I don't believe it will.  People are people.  You're Welsh, I'm Irish.  In the line of excuses for loses, it's too easy to say the Welsh guy had it in for us...or the Irish guy had it in for us.  We're human.  That's what Leinster fan is saying to you.  We think bias because that's our programming as humans.  It happens all over the world.  No rules and regulations will make you less Welsh or me less Irish.
So the Nationality thing will ALWAYS be present in a Mutli-National League.  You have to live with it if you want Professional top level rugby for your players to play in.  We all have to live with that because for now that's the conditions that we have.  At the moment none of us could support a worthwhile professional League that is purely domestic.

So if Rugby Fan's ideal were to happen and the Welsh Regions cut loose from Pro14 and joined Aviva Premiership (Anglo/Welsh competition)... I asked this question before:   who would ref the Scarlets v Saracens game?  An Englishman or a Welshman?

Good answer SF.

So, can you please point this out to all your fellow countrymen when they are calling us conspiracy theorists and clowns.

Pot Hale wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:
So the Nationality thing will ALWAYS be present in a Mutli-National League.  You have to live with it if you want Professional top level rugby for your players to play in.  

The Rugby Champions Cup ensure a neutral referee is appointed to every fixture when 2 teams of different nationality are playing.

The Pro14 do not.

There really is not much more to it than that.

This season
JP Doyle - Irish-born - Munster v Racing.
Andrew Brace - Welsh-born - Ospreys v Clermont

They are neutral in World Rugby criterion. They don't belong to the Unions of the teams involved in the fixtures. Sadly, the Pro14 don't adhere to this.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:
So the Nationality thing will ALWAYS be present in a Mutli-National League.  You have to live with it if you want Professional top level rugby for your players to play in.  

The Rugby Champions Cup ensure a neutral referee is appointed to every fixture when 2 teams of different nationality are playing.

The Pro14 do not.

There really is not much more to it than that.

The Rugby Champions Cup has teams from France (big country with lots of refs) and England (big country with lots of refs) in it.  So if the argument is now turning to the Pro14 exclusively using airlifted-in refs from England and France... or even New Zealand and Australia, then so be it.  Say so openly.  Stop going on about bias in terms of Irish refs shafting Welsh.
If the solution is hired up refs with no apparent affinity to any Nation in the League, then let that be the place the debate goes to.

Talk of bias will never die and I'll explain all that dreary stuff in more detail IF the debate does shift to English and French refs reffing the Pro14 exclusively.

The solution is to swap the referees around, which would result in a neutral referee in every fixture, but they won't do it. Presumably because they can't afford the flight costs because the league doesn't generate enough money to.

Well..like I say... it always appears 'bias' talk can be done away with.  But if you know or knew anything about the nature of things here, then you might know the reaction that would be had if a 'Neutral' English ref by the name of Wayne Barnes stepped in to ref an highly charged important game between Leinster and Scarlets in Pro14, for example.

Do you know how that would sing if Leinster lost on a few high contentious decisions?
Do you know that the word 'bias' would be used openly and loudly.

I can sit here and say, the result probably wouldn't have anything to do with bias on the ref's part but that beside the point what I say.  The potential, based on records, would be that poor Wayne could be accused of being biased for one side over another.

Now I'm sure I could come up with other 'outside' refs that would fall under the same strain based on the nature of how they might have performed at International or European level in the past.

You can't escape the perception of bias.  You can't.  When you're satisfied, I won't be.... and vice versa.

We need to take biased out of the debate and replace it with conflict of interest.

Semantics. Window dressing. The same problems some have will remain no matter who is on the pay slip.

LordDowlais wrote:

SecretFly wrote:It won't end the talk of bias.  It won't.  The 'bias talk' will go on.  Rugby fan above blurted out the problem clearly....  what difference does it make, "Peter Fitzgibbon would still be Irish".

So even he's calling out your proposal as unrealistic IN accomplishing the goal you yourself set out for it.

You hope and think it would end National bias talk.  I'm saying directly to you, I don't believe it will.  People are people.  You're Welsh, I'm Irish.  In the line of excuses for loses, it's too easy to say the Welsh guy had it in for us...or the Irish guy had it in for us.  We're human.  That's what Leinster fan is saying to you.  We think bias because that's our programming as humans.  It happens all over the world.  No rules and regulations will make you less Welsh or me less Irish.
So the Nationality thing will ALWAYS be present in a Mutli-National League.  You have to live with it if you want Professional top level rugby for your players to play in.  We all have to live with that because for now that's the conditions that we have.  At the moment none of us could support a worthwhile professional League that is purely domestic.

So if Rugby Fan's ideal were to happen and the Welsh Regions cut loose from Pro14 and joined Aviva Premiership (Anglo/Welsh competition)... I asked this question before:   who would ref the Scarlets v Saracens game?  An Englishman or a Welshman?

Good answer SF.

So, can you please point this out to all your fellow countrymen when they are calling us conspiracy theorists and clowns.

But...questions and answers Lord. I'm still putting that question to you about the usefulness of your solution.

I'll say again, Leinsterfan is inferring, by his comments, that the word 'bias' is alive and well in all sport all over the world..... but only a few people feel there is a solution.
I say there is no solution as it's just part of us and what we are as humans. We infer bias...WHETHER it exists or not. You seem to think it can be eradicated by people getting paid out of common bank account?

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:
So the Nationality thing will ALWAYS be present in a Mutli-National League.  You have to live with it if you want Professional top level rugby for your players to play in.  

The Rugby Champions Cup ensure a neutral referee is appointed to every fixture when 2 teams of different nationality are playing.

The Pro14 do not.

There really is not much more to it than that.

This season
JP Doyle - Irish-born - Munster v Racing.
Andrew Brace - Welsh-born - Ospreys v Clermont

They are neutral in World Rugby criterion. They don't belong to the Unions of the teams involved in the fixtures. Sadly, the Pro14 don't adhere to this.

Yes. That logic didn’t seem to apply to Alain Rolland on a number of occasions such as the RwC Wales v France SF.

LordDowlais wrote:We need to take biased out of the debate and replace it with conflict of interest.

You mean bias?

SecretFly wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:
So the Nationality thing will ALWAYS be present in a Mutli-National League.  You have to live with it if you want Professional top level rugby for your players to play in.  

The Rugby Champions Cup ensure a neutral referee is appointed to every fixture when 2 teams of different nationality are playing.

The Pro14 do not.

There really is not much more to it than that.

The Rugby Champions Cup has teams from France (big country with lots of refs) and England (big country with lots of refs) in it.  So if the argument is now turning to the Pro14 exclusively using airlifted-in refs from England and France... or even New Zealand and Australia, then so be it.  Say so openly.  Stop going on about bias in terms of Irish refs shafting Welsh.
If the solution is hired up refs with no apparent affinity to any Nation in the League, then let that be the place the debate goes to.

Talk of bias will never die and I'll explain all that dreary stuff in more detail IF the debate does shift to English and French refs reffing the Pro14 exclusively.

The solution is to swap the referees around, which would result in a neutral referee in every fixture, but they won't do it. Presumably because they can't afford the flight costs because the league doesn't generate enough money to.

Well..like I say... it always appears 'bias' talk can be done away with.  But if you know or knew anything about the nature of things here, then you might know the reaction that would be had if a 'Neutral' English ref by the name of Wayne Barnes stepped to ref an highly charged important game between Leinster and Scarlets, for example.

Do you know how that would sing if Leinster lost on a few high contentious decisions?
Do you know that the word 'bias' would be used openly and loudly.

I can sit here and say, the result probably wouldn't have anything to do with bias on the ref's part but that beside the point what I say.  The potential, based on records, would be that poor Wayne could be accused of being biased for one side over another.

Now I'm sure I could come up with other 'outside' refs that would fall under the same strain based on the nature of how they might have performed at International or European level in the past.

You can't escape the perception of bias.  You can't.  When you're satisfied, I won't be.... and vice versa.

It's about limiting the chances of bias and perception of bias. The Pro14 increase it with their referees appointments.

I am trying to type in brief, short sentences, as if I was explaining something to Donald Trump. But it is still not sinking in. It's quite remarkable to witness. You all know the problem. You all know deep inside that the Pro14 isn't doing enough to limit the perception of bias with their non-neutral bias (something that they have previously said they will eradicate too, which shows how honest they are as an organisation. They said they'd appoint neutral TMOs - so the Pro12 bosses lied)

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/guinness-pro12-introduce-neutral-television-11789218

. But none of you will say one tiny thing against the Pro14, as you don't want to admit they do anything that is not excellent. In the meantime we will still see articles like this appear in the press :

Well, one issue that keeps coming up is neutral officials.

When you don’t have them and mistakes are made, then that just provides ammunition for those conspiracy theorists who claim bias is at work, which is far from healthy.

Moreover, it just doesn’t look very good for the tournament.

On Saturday night in Galway, all four officials for the Connacht-Ospreys game were Irish, so when a crucial decision goes the way of the home team it’s hardly surprising some people will point to the nationality issue.

In an ideal world, the officials for all Pro12 games would be neutral.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/pro12-bosses-must-act-now-10978612

Pot Hale wrote:

Yes.  That logic didn’t seem to apply to Alain Rolland on a number of occasions such as the RwC Wales v France SF.

Not much they can do about it is there? If he's part of a Union, he's  part of a Union. Same as Steve Walsh and Patterson. The very least that should be done is adhere to the Union level of neutrality

SecretFly wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:We need to take biased out of the debate and replace it with conflict of interest.

You mean bias?

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