The Future for the PRO14 - Part 4 - A Global Club Championship

First topic message reminder :

Following the Union Balldance of the last 12 months, another union has finally joined the party - SARU. The PRO12 league is gone with Martin Anayi's announcement of a global club championship involving conferences of teams from five unions with the potential for more to be included.

At first glance, it looks like a smart play - albeit somewhat fortuitous with SARU having to shed two teams from the Super Rugby competition. It brings together a lot more viewers that are attractive to media companies and business sponsors. Celtic Rugby Ltd still owns the competition with just its three founding shareholders - IRFU, SRU and WRU. No club or franchise owners involved. FIR failed to meet the required performance that would have made them shareholders at the beginning of July. And SARU weren't persuasive enough to get their seat at the table just yet. Rumours of a new company being set up failed to materialise. But they still signed up to a six-year agreement with £6m in funding each year.

It's not clear if this money is coming from SARU or directly from SuperSport, their broadcast partner. It is SARU who have signed the agreement to provide two teams so presumably the financial buck stops with them. It's more likely the £6m is a participation fee paid by SARU, similar to what FIR was charged when it joined in 2010. Media reports have said that the monies will be split equally amongst the 12 teams with travel and logistics costs for SA trips met centrally by Celtic Rugby Ltd since these will vary for clubs depending on whether they play one or both teams in SA.

Next on Anayi's agenda is the negotiation of a new media deal involving PPV and terrestrial TV, and online platforms. SuperSport may have already got their slice - all 20-22 home games involving Cheetahs and Kings plus some/all of the finals stages. Or perhaps not. Sky and possibly other PPV broadcasters such as Eir Sport may be willing to bid more to be the primary broadcaster for a higher profile, expanded Championship. But Anayi will want to keep a slice for terrestrial TV since they have a much better viewership reach. The current deal is for four years. Would a six-year deal be a better strategic move to guarantee increased revenues for a longer period? It would link in with the duration of the SARU agreement. And it would outlast the current participation agreement for the European Cup run by EPCR.

Further expansion is obviously the other key consideration with possibly other teams from SA, US and Europe coming on board. The danger is that Celtic Rugby goes too far and repeats the mistakes of Super Rugby. Better to build slowly to see if they will still come.

The coming season will be a fascinating one to see how the new structure and Championship beds in. Will attendances increase? Will there be more surprise results and potentially another new team to lift the cup next May?

Roll on 1 September.



Further info on PRO14 can be found here:
http://www.pro14rugby.org/2017/08/01/guinness-pro14-championship-qa/

RugbyFan100 wrote:

It's about limiting the chances of bias and perception of bias. The Pro14 increase it with their referees appointments.

I am trying to type in brief, short sentences, as if I was explaining something to Donald Trump.

Forget the Donald Trump analogies, we all know what you're trying to say...you're good enough at English.

Now back to the topic.  In the real world a Ref born in Connacht isn't neutral whether he refs a Leinster v Glasgow game ...or a Scarlets v Ospreys game.  He's not neutral.  

'Perception' is just the smoke-screen fans use to soothe their moans when their team loses.  "It's not fair!"...why is it not fair?  "Well, there is a long list.  Our best players weren't playing, it was an away game, we don't like playing in the wet...the ref was biased...."  Excuses - that's what 'perception' is.
If, by the weird magic of point collecting in these bonus point Leagues, Ospreys beating Scarlets meant that Connacht went to the top of a table...... that Connacht ref wouldn't be Neutral in that game he's officiating between Scarlets and Ospreys.
So it seems you only want to pander to the less calculating fans...the fans that only see blunt bias potential  (an Irish ref or officials reffing a game involving an Irish team and a non-Irish one).
But a fan like me can see the potential of sly bias all over the place in less obvious games.  Yet I don't count because my perception of potential bias is too complicated a thing to worry about.

There are many games when most of the officials at a game are Welsh and an Irish side is playing.  There might be lots of complaints about the game after but no, there isn't threads after threads worrying about the officials and their make up.  Perception of Bias is everywhere but the vocal perception of it is only at possessed levels in certain areas - not in all areas.

SecretFly wrote:
'Perception' is just the smoke-screen fans use to soothe their moans when their team loses.

No. It's not. This is the fundamental flaw in you adn your ilk's thinking. If it was just a smokescreen, then Nigel Owens would referee Wales, Howard Webb would referee England, Wayne Barnes would referee Bath v Scarlets and on and on and on.

But they don't. Because the perception of bias is limited by the relevant authorities. Yet not in the Pro14.

 "It's not fair!"...why is it not fair?  "Well, there is a long list.  Our best players weren't playing, it was an away game, we don't like playing in the wet...the ref was biased...."  Excuses - that's what 'perception' is.
If, by the weird magic of point collecting in these bonus point Leagues, Ospreys beating Scarlets meant that Connacht went to the top of a table...... that Connacht ref wouldn't be Neutral in that game he's officiating between Scarlets and Ospreys.
So it seems you only want to pander to the less calculating fans...the fans that only see blunt bias potential  (an Irish ref or officials reffing a game involving an Irish team and a non-Irish one).
But a fan like me can see the potential of sly bias all over the place in less obvious games.  Yet I don't count because my perception of potential bias is too complicated a thing to worry about.

There are many games when most of the officials at a game are Welsh and an Irish side is playing.  There might be lots of complaints about the game after but no, there isn't threads after threads worrying about the officials and their make up.  

There's a lot of b,luster there,a s usual. The only point worth responding to is that this is not limited to Irish officials. It extends to Welsh ones to. Nigel Owens should NEVER, ever have refereed that Pro12 final last season. That was a terrible appointment, regardless of the result / performance.

Perception of Bias is everywhere but the vocal perception of it is only at possessed levels in certain areas - not in all areas.

Absolutely no idea what this sentence means, sorry.

Jaysus, the last two days of this thread has been very...

This is an entire repeat of the same old arguments that went on for months before.... EXACTLY the same arguments.

At this point I usually say yep, all the talk of bias and potential bias is just a cover to keep piling the critical pressure on a Competition you simply don't want to exist.  It's easy to find the issues when you just want something to roll over and die.
You don't want the Pro14 to work...you want an Anglo/Welsh League; and because the English don't want that, you want your next best shot at playing the English clubs on a regular basis...a British and Irish League... for the Welsh fans that don't want to travel and wouldn't then give a crap about the Irish bit then. Heaven!

Yep, that's what I usually say at this point.... at least that's what I said to the other guy that once was here who felt the EXACT same way that you do...about everything....

eirebilly wrote:Jaysus, the last two days of this thread has been very...

weird?

mad?

deja vu-y?

Ghostly?

fun?

excruciating?


Give us a clue. How many syllables?

There seems to be nobody really interested in listening to anyone else on this thread, its quite comical

SecretFly wrote:This is an entire repeat of the same old arguments that went on for months before.... EXACTLY the same arguments.

At this point I usually say yep, all the talk of bias and potential bias is just a cover to keep piling the critical pressure on a Competition you simply don't want to exist.  It's easy to find the issues when you just want something to roll over and die.
You don't want the Pro14 to work...you want an Anglo/Welsh League; and because the English don't want that, you want your next best shot at playing the English clubs on a regular basis...a British and Irish League... for the Welsh fans that don't want to travel and wouldn't then give a crap about the Irish bit then.  Heaven!

Yep, that's what I usually say at this point.... at least that's what I said to the other guy that once was here who felt the EXACT same way that you do...about everything....

I've already given my solution to a better tournament, and that wasn't a British and Irish league. So your inference once again, that I am another poster, is once again misinformed.

Martin Anayi's words:

“We already have neutral referees for 70% of the games but, to have all neutral referees, we need more from Scotland and Italy. That takes money, investment and time. That’s what the unions are doing and, until we get to three years time, we are going to have a neutral assistant referee and a neutral TMO for all matches.

“Ultimately, if you are listening to a match on television and you hear an Irish TMO speaking at a match in Ireland, as happened with Connacht versus the Ospreys, you are going to to think they are biased

Ultimately Martin, you lied to us.

Heard it all before, billy. It's a carbon copy of a debate that..well, it's legendary now in terms of length on 606. I'd love the archive folks to dig it up and show us all how absolutely we're all saying the EXACT same stuff now...two years down the line or so.
And all the same people too...but for the one newcomer.

You acknowledged your solution wouldn't work as you stated it so there is no solution according you rugbyfan.

No 7&1/2 wrote:You acknowledged your solution wouldn't work as you stated it so there is no solution according you rugbyfan.

No, I ackowledged that certain people wouldn't let it work. Big difference.

The solution is out there. But according to some, there isn't even a problem.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Martin Anayi's words:

“We already have neutral referees for 70% of the games but, to have all neutral referees, we need more from Scotland and Italy. That takes money, investment and time. That’s what the unions are doing and, until we get to three years time, we are going to have a neutral assistant referee and a neutral TMO for all matches.

“Ultimately, if you are listening to a match on television and you hear an Irish TMO speaking at a match in Ireland, as happened with Connacht versus the Ospreys, you are going to to think they are biased

Ultimately Martin, you lied to us.

Ultimately, he was obviously directly talking to you.  You should feel special that he's personally interested in your continuing concerns....

You acknowledged that it wasn't a workable solution rugbyfan hence you don't think there I a workable solution.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:You acknowledged your solution wouldn't work as you stated it so there is no solution according you rugbyfan.

No, I ackowledged that certain people wouldn't let it work. Big difference.

The solution is out there. But according to some, there isn't even a problem.

The solution is talking about rugby. There is some good rugby played by some wonderful sides with some very tasty young players...out there... on the field. That's the solution. But we can't talk about that because there is too much quality - in all partner Nations - to slander that stuff effectively.

No 7&1/2 wrote:You acknowledged that it wasn't a workable solution.

I'm afraid I did not. But if you want to be the winner, I'll be the hero and let you keep your ball on the way home.

LordDowlais wrote:

Logistically the Pro14 is a nightmare. But I do not want to get into that.

As for the refereeing situation, I have always said on here that I could not give two hoots what nationality they are, but what I would like to see is a group of elite referees employed by the league. They could have a head ref so to speak, Nigel Owens if you like, he could then assess the refs from each country and put forward any he feels are ready for elite training by the league. They could be paid by the league, and each union who submits teams into the league can be charged by a form of league/ref fees. These referees can then all meet together once a month or whatever and discuss how they should be going about their business, so then, we do not have an Irish ref reffing in an Irish style, or a Welsh ref reffing in a Welsh style, we have a group of elite Pro14 refs, reffing in a Pro14 style.

I don't know, perhaps I am asking too much, but what I do know is, the current situation we find ourselves in is not ideal.

This is an idea I like very much. Don't care about affiliations I just care about the development of refereeing. If all ref's were trained to ref roughly the same way then that would tighten up the refereeing quite a bit. Getting all the referee's to sing from the same hymn sheet will almost certainly improve the refereeing standards not only in the Pro-14 but the wider game.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:You acknowledged your solution wouldn't work as you stated it so there is no solution according you rugbyfan.

No, I ackowledged that certain people wouldn't let it work. Big difference.

The solution is out there. But according to some, there isn't even a problem.

I have to agree with this 100%.

Also, this insistence that none of us want the Pro14 work is what you all use as a smoke and mirrors exorcize to just rebuff and not admit that there are problems with the league. Most of us, on here enjoy the Pro14, but we can all see it is far from perfect, and the fact that it cannot generate the same level of investment as it's peers, even though it is now spread over a whopping 5 countries puts weight behind that. It's almost as if, some Irish members on here are too stubborn to even accept that others have a point. It's as though you have been so staunchly against other opinions, that you have gone far to long down the line to accept anyone else's point of view.

How anybody on here, and in the world outside of cyberspace, cannot not see that things are far from ideal is beyond me.

Just to put some balance on this though, we clearly need to the Pro14 to work or otherwise nations like France and England at international level would leave us all behind. Also, there are things that are working with our league as it is producing some very friggin top teams such as Scarlets and Leinster and Munster, and even the less top teams are proving a match for their peers as we have seen from the displays in the champions cup with Ospreys and Ulster.

All I want is for us to strive for perfection, get those TV deals that the English and french are getting, let us not be in a position where people can mock our league because of the refereeing situation, and lack of support, in essence we all want this deep down don't we ? Unless you all want to keep burying your heads in the sand and pretend everything is perfect in Pro14 land.

SecretFly wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:You acknowledged your solution wouldn't work as you stated it so there is no solution according you rugbyfan.

No, I ackowledged that certain people wouldn't let it work. Big difference.

The solution is out there. But according to some, there isn't even a problem.

The solution is talking about rugby.  There is some good rugby played by some wonderful sides with some very tasty young players...out there... on the field.  That's the solution.  But we can't talk about that because there is too much quality - in all partner Nations - to slander that stuff effectively.  

You speak as if nobody should care about how those players get on the pitch. Who pays their salary. Who funds the electricity bills, the flight costs, the groundsmen. How to attract the next group of great players

What a lovely world that must be to live in. A level above cloud cuckoo land.

eirebilly wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Logistically the Pro14 is a nightmare. But I do not want to get into that.

As for the refereeing situation, I have always said on here that I could not give two hoots what nationality they are, but what I would like to see is a group of elite referees employed by the league. They could have a head ref so to speak, Nigel Owens if you like, he could then assess the refs from each country and put forward any he feels are ready for elite training by the league. They could be paid by the league, and each union who submits teams into the league can be charged by a form of league/ref fees. These referees can then all meet together once a month or whatever and discuss how they should be going about their business, so then, we do not have an Irish ref reffing in an Irish style, or a Welsh ref reffing in a Welsh style, we have a group of elite Pro14 refs, reffing in a Pro14 style.

I don't know, perhaps I am asking too much, but what I do know is, the current situation we find ourselves in is not ideal.

This is an idea I like very much. Don't care about affiliations I just care about the development of refereeing. If all ref's were trained to ref roughly the same way then that would tighten up the refereeing quite a bit. Getting all the referee's to sing from the same hymn sheet will almost certainly improve the refereeing standards not only in the Pro-14 but the wider game.

Thankyou very much, a sensible answer from one of the most sensible members on this forum.

LordDowlais wrote:

All I want is for us to strive for perfection, get those TV deals that the English and french are getting, let us not be in a position where people can mock our league because of the refereeing situation, and lack of support, in essence we all want this deep down don't we ? Unless you all want to keep burying your heads in the sand and pretend everything is perfect in Pro14 land.

Not going to happen in a Union controlled competition and with the current lot in charge.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

All I want is for us to strive for perfection, get those TV deals that the English and french are getting, let us not be in a position where people can mock our league because of the refereeing situation, and lack of support, in essence we all want this deep down don't we ? Unless you all want to keep burying your heads in the sand and pretend everything is perfect in Pro14 land.

Not going to happen in a Union controlled competition and with the current lot in charge.

Why not ?

I have never sat well with the attitude that something cannot happen, how do you know this without trying ?

If you think the current lot in charge are the problem, then why can't it improve with a new regime in charge ?

Also a union controlled competition is fine, it has worked with the 5N/6N for the past 100 years or so. It just needs tweaking.

LordDowlais wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:You acknowledged your solution wouldn't work as you stated it so there is no solution according you rugbyfan.

No, I ackowledged that certain people wouldn't let it work. Big difference.

The solution is out there. But according to some, there isn't even a problem.

I have to agree with this 100%.

Also, this insistence that none of us want the Pro14 work is what you all use as a smoke and mirrors exorcize...

For my part, did I say 'None of you want'?  I've spoken with you often enough to know you're not against the concept of the Pro14 and would generally like to see it work and think that there is a competition there that Welsh sides can thrive in.

Criticism is fine...when that criticism is everything then there is another agenda.  So for some through the years, the TV deals are wrong, the days of the week when games get played are wrong, the reffing system is wrong, the kinds of players that are given to Pro14 are wrong, the attendances are wrong, the opposition sides are wrong, the bus times are wrong....

When everything is wrong then nothing is wrong except the complainer wants out.... just like the young man who suddenly finds that everything in his home life is wrong.  It's just time for him to leave...he'll never again have conditions in his home that he'll be satisfied with because Leaving is just exactly what he wants.

So you're going back on what you said rugbyfan? You came up with a solution you said wouldn't be accepted and thus wouldn't work. It would be like me saying I have a solution for Israel but it results in the palestinians taking steps they're not prepared to take ie it is not a solution.

SecretFly wrote:Criticism is fine...when that criticism is everything then there is another agenda. So for some through the years, the TV deals are wrong, the days of the week when games get played are wrong, the reffing system is wrong, the kinds of players that are given to Pro14 are wrong, the attendances are wrong, the opposition sides are wrong, the bus times are wrong....

SF, sometimes the criticism is warranted though, then what we get are insults. The trouble is, now that I think of it, is that some people on here cannot take criticism, apply that with the insistance to always be right that some of our members have, then you get carnage.

Look, if you think that the Pro14 is fine in it's current guise then fine, but even the most staunch supporter has to realise that things are far from ideal, surely ?

RugbyFan100 wrote:
Martin Anayi's words:

“We already have neutral referees for 70% of the games but, to have all neutral referees, we need more from Scotland and Italy. That takes money, investment and time. That’s what the unions are doing and, until we get to three years time, we are going to have a neutral assistant referee and a neutral TMO for all matches.

“Ultimately, if you are listening to a match on television and you hear an Irish TMO speaking at a match in Ireland, as happened with Connacht versus the Ospreys, you are going to to think they are biased

Ultimately Martin, you lied to us.

Except for the early part of last season that was the case, there were two Scottish refs last season (Linton and Adamson) and some former refs were brought in as TMOs. Come the end of the season Linton was AWOL

So Im not sure where the issue is as in an interview from August 2016 he has said in 3 years time and its not even 18months later.

marty2086 wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:
Martin Anayi's words:

“We already have neutral referees for 70% of the games but, to have all neutral referees, we need more from Scotland and Italy. That takes money, investment and time. That’s what the unions are doing and, until we get to three years time, we are going to have a neutral assistant referee and a neutral TMO for all matches.

“Ultimately, if you are listening to a match on television and you hear an Irish TMO speaking at a match in Ireland, as happened with Connacht versus the Ospreys, you are going to to think they are biased

Ultimately Martin, you lied to us.

Except for the early part of last season that was the case, there were two Scottish refs last season (Linton and Adamson) and some former refs were brought in as TMOs. Come the end of the season Linton was AWOL

So Im not sure where the issue is as in an interview from August 2016 he has said in 3 years time and its not even 18months later.

Yes, but the situation is far from ideal, can you accept that ?

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:
Martin Anayi's words:

“We already have neutral referees for 70% of the games but, to have all neutral referees, we need more from Scotland and Italy. That takes money, investment and time. That’s what the unions are doing and, until we get to three years time, we are going to have a neutral assistant referee and a neutral TMO for all matches.

“Ultimately, if you are listening to a match on television and you hear an Irish TMO speaking at a match in Ireland, as happened with Connacht versus the Ospreys, you are going to to think they are biased

Ultimately Martin, you lied to us.

Except for the early part of last season that was the case, there were two Scottish refs last season (Linton and Adamson) and some former refs were brought in as TMOs. Come the end of the season Linton was AWOL

So Im not sure where the issue is as in an interview from August 2016 he has said in 3 years time and its not even 18months later.

Yes, but the situation is far from ideal, can you accept that ?

No one said it was but claims are being made that someone lied, when based on those statements it's not true

I remember a statement for Martin Anyai stating that the following season will see neutral TMO's. This has not happened.

The situation we find ourselves in with the officials in our league is a bone of contention for me, it also grates me when I see people who support teams in other leagues mocking our league because of it.

It needs looking at.

LordDowlais wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Criticism is fine...when that criticism is everything then there is another agenda.  So for some through the years, the TV deals are wrong, the days of the week when games get played are wrong, the reffing system is wrong, the kinds of players that are given to Pro14 are wrong, the attendances are wrong, the opposition sides are wrong, the bus times are wrong....

SF, sometimes the criticism is warranted though, then what we get are insults. The trouble is, now that I think of it, is that some people on here cannot take criticism, apply that with the insistance to always be right that some of our members have, then you get carnage.

Look, if you think that the Pro14 is fine in it's current guise then fine, but even the most staunch supporter has to realise that things are far from ideal, surely ?

I said to you earlier, I believe that the Pro14 will become the most exciting brand of League rugby in Europe.  Whilst I always supported the standard of players in the League, that's not something I'd have claimed overly in the past.  But now I do.  I've become more enthusiastic about it.  I think we're getting a real engine into its belly and it has a road to climb but it's on its way.  There is nobody in France or England laughing at our league now.  They're not.  I read the rugby press.  I get my feelers out and nope... it's not a joke.

But I don't care what the others think anyway, because if it's not a joke with them then it's a threat.  I don't want our League to be either.  I don't want people from the outside trying to kill it off for want of enhancing their own product.  

All I want is that neutrals might turn on their TV one day somewhere in England or wherever and watch a game that might look like it's come from Super Rugby but realise it's that little old League called Pro14.  That is doable, and it was the Pro14 sides playing the Super Rugby brand of rugby in recent instalments of the European Champions Cup.  Not all of them, but enough of them to kill off any notion that Pro14 sides are a joke and aren't hard enough or fast enough to play the real stuff.

Too much whinging, moaning and complaining about Pro14.  Believe in what you believe; and if we want it to work, it's our job too in ways to promote it and be positive about it.  
If there are complaints so be it.  But months and years of the same complaints over and over in threads like this? ...no...that's a spoiler, designed to keep the product laboured down in criticism and misery.  For some...that's the objective...because for some, the whole Pro14 product is alien to their traditional sense of what they want and who they want to play against.

That was for last season and was the case early on, like I said some officials seemed to have disappeared

I think anyone involved to date in this discussion about the PRO14 thinks it could be improved in a number of areas. That includes reffing standards. The same debate that's occurred now is the same debate from 18 months ago and from the time before that. Ideally, there would be sufficient referees within each union so that perception of bias was lessened or removed. Everyone agrees with that, and the PRO14 management said they were aiming to have sufficient numbers after 3 years which would be for the 19/20 season if I've done my sums right from the timing of the Anayi interview.

The commitment to having neutral TMOs/Asst refs has not been met - I'm not aware of the reasons why. Perhaps there are insufficient numbers if some officials have dropped out or been deemed not good enough. The addition of two SA teams into the mix, no doubt complicates the schedule further. I don't regard this as Martin Anayi lying. I'm not sure if the question has been put recently to him and if an answer has been provided.

One poster is of the view that problems will persist in a competition where unions own some or all of the clubs; another poster thinks that the union should not be employing the referees. And some other posters think differently to those points of view.

LordDowlais wrote:I remember a statement for Martin Anyai stating that the following season will see neutral TMO's. This has not happened.

The situation we find ourselves in with the officials in our league is a bone of contention for me, it also grates me when I see people who support teams in other leagues mocking our league because of it.

It needs looking at.

Seriously people mock the pro14 due to TMOs? They need to get out more. Scarlets Glasgow and Leinster have been playing some of the best rugby going these last few years. If there big concern is our TMO they clearly don't understand rugby at all

Pot Hale wrote:One poster is of the view that problems will persist in a competition where unions own some or all of the clubs; another poster thinks that the union should not be employing the referees. And some other posters think differently to those points of view.

All that is fine, and I encourage this, after all, it's what I come on here for, a healthy debate. It's when i get called a clown, or a conspiracy theorist because of my opinions, that's what I take offence to, also, the insistence with people to not give an opinion an ounce of thought and just dismiss it as rubbish, that's what goes on here in this forum as well.

You can see people's worries though, when for whatever reason, a promise has not been fulfilled, how are they supposed to believe another promise to come to fruition by 2020 ?

It baffles me how some think that the Pro 14 is the only competition with officiating problems, the AP and Super Rugby have complaints every round. Only difference is that nationality isn't brought into it. The same refs go into the ERCC and fans complain about them there, the truth is they are just crap

carpet baboon wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:I remember a statement for Martin Anyai stating that the following season will see neutral TMO's. This has not happened.

The situation we find ourselves in with the officials in our league is a bone of contention for me, it also grates me when I see people who support teams in other leagues mocking our league because of it.

It needs looking at.

Seriously people mock the pro14 due to TMOs? They need to get out more. Scarlets Glasgow and Leinster have been playing some of the best rugby going these last few years. If there big concern is our TMO they clearly don't understand rugby at all

No they do not mock the Pro14 because of the TMO's.

They mock the league because of the situation we are in regarding the officiating. That's all officials, the ref, linesmen/women and TMO's.

LordDowlais wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:I remember a statement for Martin Anyai stating that the following season will see neutral TMO's. This has not happened.

The situation we find ourselves in with the officials in our league is a bone of contention for me, it also grates me when I see people who support teams in other leagues mocking our league because of it.

It needs looking at.

Seriously people mock the pro14 due to TMOs? They need to get out more. Scarlets Glasgow and Leinster have been playing some of the best rugby going these last few years. If there big concern is our TMO they clearly don't understand rugby at all

No they do not mock the Pro14 because of the TMO's.

They mock the league because of the situation we are in regarding the officiating. That's all officials, the ref, linesmen/women and TMO's.

Really? I only ever hear people mock the league for standards of play and big names not playing every game

marty2086 wrote:It baffles me how some think that the Pro 14 is the only competition with officiating problems, the AP and Super Rugby have complaints every round. Only difference is that nationality isn't brought into it. The same refs go into the ERCC and fans complain about them there, the truth is they are just crap

Firstly I do not think this, I just do not care about any other competition. Secondly, the only reason nationality is not brought into it, is because in suoer rugby they have enough refs from each country to be impartial, and the AP have all English/RFU refs officiating sides.

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:I remember a statement for Martin Anyai stating that the following season will see neutral TMO's. This has not happened.

The situation we find ourselves in with the officials in our league is a bone of contention for me, it also grates me when I see people who support teams in other leagues mocking our league because of it.

It needs looking at.

Seriously people mock the pro14 due to TMOs? They need to get out more. Scarlets Glasgow and Leinster have been playing some of the best rugby going these last few years. If there big concern is our TMO they clearly don't understand rugby at all

No they do not mock the Pro14 because of the TMO's.

They mock the league because of the situation we are in regarding the officiating. That's all officials, the ref, linesmen/women and TMO's.

Really? I only ever hear people mock the league for standards of play and big names not playing every game

I have heard it, honestly I have.

They cannot mock us over big names now, as we play our internationals when we can, plus the fact that more and more are coming back, well Welsh one's anyway.

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:It baffles me how some think that the Pro 14 is the only competition with officiating problems, the AP and Super Rugby have complaints every round. Only difference is that nationality isn't brought into it. The same refs go into the ERCC and fans complain about them there, the truth is they are just crap

Firstly I do not think this, I just do not care about any other competition. Secondly, the only reason nationality is not brought into it, is because in suoer rugby they have enough refs from each country to be impartial, and the AP have all English/RFU refs officiating sides.

Maybe check your facts LD, Super Rugby regularly use refs from the nation of one of the teams playing such as the very first game from last year when an Aussie ref took charge of an Aussie team against a Kiwi team

Rebels v Blues

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:It baffles me how some think that the Pro 14 is the only competition with officiating problems, the AP and Super Rugby have complaints every round. Only difference is that nationality isn't brought into it. The same refs go into the ERCC and fans complain about them there, the truth is they are just crap

Firstly I do not think this, I just do not care about any other competition. Secondly, the only reason nationality is not brought into it, is because in super rugby they have enough refs from each country to be impartial, and the AP have all English/RFU refs officiating sides.

Maybe check your facts LD, Super Rugby regularly use refs from the nation of one of the teams playing such as the very first game from last year when an Aussie ref took charge of an Aussie team against a Kiwi team

Rebels v Blues

I did not say otherwise.

I just said that they have more refs from each union.

Is this another instance/craving to be right again ? I am not disputing that it does not go on in other competitions, I just don't care about Super Rugby like I do with the Pro14. Sorry.

LordDowlais wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:One poster is of the view that problems will persist in a competition where unions own some or all of the clubs; another poster thinks that the union should not be employing the referees. And some other posters think differently to those points of view.

All that is fine, and I encourage this, after all, it's what I come on here for, a healthy debate. It's when i get called a clown, or a conspiracy theorist because of my opinions, that's what I take offence to, also, the insistence with people to not give an opinion an ounce of thought and just dismiss it as rubbish, that's what goes on here in this forum as well.

You can see people's worries though, when for whatever reason, a promise has not been fulfilled, how are they supposed to believe another promise to come to fruition by 2020 ?

Then don't believe.  That's your choice.  Nothing anyone can do about that until the circumstances arrive where you might feel ready to believe.  

But don't ask people who are enthusiastic to travel down to where you are in terms of belief to show that they understand and respect your opinion.  

I respect your opinions because they appear genuine to me.  But I can't share your concerns.  I don't care if all officials at a Leinster game are Welsh.  I don't care.  And I didn't care in periods when Leinster weren't doing so well either.  

Too many other things to be concerned about...style of play, coaching, style of play, coaching...coaching and style of play to be blunt about it.  When Leinster lose I always blame the team...players, coach, players, coach..... not the Welsh sideline guy.  Most of the time I wouldn't even know if the guy was Welsh, Scottish or Irish.  I let them do their thing.  I'm too interested in the game.  Of course there'll be moments when you think a ref should have caught this or not yellow carded that, but mostly and genuinely I seldom even take into account the Ref's Nationality.  It's not important to me...the game is.  "Ref got it wrong but why the f**k doesn't Sexton stop trying those wrap arounds!!  They're on to them!!!".

You can't love a sport if you're always trying to catch the nationality of the officials.  I only know Nigel is Welsh because it's a strange thing that I've always liked him so much...him being Welsh and all...........

SF, I have always said that nationality does not concern me with officials, it's all on here for you to read.

My concern is the employers of the referees, and that is not privvy to the Irish one's either.

LordDowlais wrote:

They cannot mock us over big names now, as we play our internationals when we can, plus the fact that more and more are coming back, well Welsh one's anyway.

Our biggest names right now are Larmour and Isa ...two players the International watching casuals wouldn't even know.  

That's the other bizarre thing I hear about Welsh rugby...this need for International stars rather than just exciting players.  I think I said to you some years ago that I love when International periods come and you see the young guys get their chance on the Provincial teams.   Seeing the Internationals all the time would be boring ...and worrying.  The Less Internationals needed, the better the side you have all round.  Besides, when you're looking at the younger hopefuls, you're looking at the future International stars anyway... on the cheap

SecretFly wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

They cannot mock us over big names now, as we play our internationals when we can, plus the fact that more and more are coming back, well Welsh one's anyway.

Our biggest names right now are Larmour and Isa ...two players the International watching casuals  wouldn't even know.  

That's the other bizarre thing I hear about Welsh rugby...this need for International stars rather than just exciting players.  I think I said to you some years ago that I love when International periods come and you see the young guys get their chance on the Provincial teams.   Seeing the Internationals all the time would be boring ...and worrying.  The Less Internationals needed, the better the side you have all round.  Besides, when you're looking at the younger hopefuls, you're looking at the future International stars anyway... on the cheap

Preaching to the choir there SF.

The thing is, in Wales we have thousands of armchair fans, I am one these days when it comes to the Pro14, I watch more Welsh prem these days, but to get these people out of their armchairs and to the stadiums, we need idols that they watch in the red jersey.

You see how many people turn up to Cardiff on international day ? There are thousands of them in the stadium, then there are the masses who migrate down to the big smoke just for the atmosphere, plus the ones who will go to their own town center for the craic. We need these internationals on a more regular basis, so people can watch them more and more. That's the idea anyway.

LordDowlais wrote:SF, I have always said that nationality does not concern me with officials, it's all on here for you to read.

My concern is the employers of the referees, and that is not privvy to the Irish one's either.

The 'employers' concern is the concern that one Nation's refs are becoming to/duty bound to/in-the-pocket-of of/corruptible by their National Union.  That's a Nationality of ref issue.

But as always, we all just keep going round in circles on this one.  

Let's put it this way then.  Let's say that it never is or was a Nationality issue (it is with many)...and let's say instead that it is a 'quality' issue.  

I'd say again that personally I let the Competition organisers deal with the quality of refs they are giving to the competition - and in an indirect and not so indirect way The Pro14 IS involved in all that stuff as they all get around the table to discuss this stuff and have decisions made on this stuff.  
But personally speaking again, I'm still more interested in the 'quality' of my team.... the players and the coaching.... in Every game that's the central factor.  If the official is bad or does things a certain way that the team aren't familiar with?  Tough... I expect the team to have homework done and to play the ref according to how they know he operates.  That's the team's business to minimise the part the ref plays in the game.  
But if a ref is there that is no good and the Pro14 committee or committees are allowing that to happen knowingly then............. that's their ballpark to deal with...all five Union representatives or club representatives together; their role to voice real concerns and find real answers.  

So the Competition organisers already have an obligation to make sure everyone is happy with the officials.  They already have that obligation.  So the people that you want the refs turned over to are already responsible for the refs and TMOs that turn up now.

SecretFly wrote:Let's put it this way then. Let's say that it never is or was a Nationality issue (it is with many)...and let's say instead that it is a 'quality' issue.

There is deffo a quality issue with the Pro14 when it comes to officials, that's why I would like them all to come under one umbrella, all being given the same directives, all singing from the same hymn sheet.

LordDowlais wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Let's put it this way then.  Let's say that it never is or was a Nationality issue (it is with many)...and let's say instead that it is a 'quality' issue.  

There is deffo a quality issue with the Pro14 when it comes to officials, that's why I would like them all to come under one umbrella, all being given the same directives, all singing from the same hymn sheet.

They are. World rugby.

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:It baffles me how some think that the Pro 14 is the only competition with officiating problems, the AP and Super Rugby have complaints every round. Only difference is that nationality isn't brought into it. The same refs go into the ERCC and fans complain about them there, the truth is they are just crap

Firstly I do not think this, I just do not care about any other competition. Secondly, the only reason nationality is not brought into it, is because in super rugby they have enough refs from each country to be impartial, and the AP have all English/RFU refs officiating sides.

Maybe check your facts LD, Super Rugby regularly use refs from the nation of one of the teams playing such as the very first game from last year when an Aussie ref took charge of an Aussie team against a Kiwi team

Rebels v Blues

I did not say otherwise.

I just said that they have more refs from each union.

Is this another instance/craving to be right again ? I am not disputing that it does not go on in other competitions, I just don't care about Super Rugby like I do with the Pro14. Sorry.

So your logic is that fans of Super Rugby don't question a refs nationality even when he's reffing a team from his home nation, merely because there are enough officials to be impartial?

marty2086 wrote:So your logic is that fans of Super Rugby don't question a refs nationality even when he's reffing a team from his home nation, merely because there are enough officials to be impartial? Headscratch

OMG marty, please don't do this. All the bloody time.

Look, I am not, have never said, that the fans of Super Rugby do, or do not do anything, all I said was that Super Rugby have enough refs from each union to go around, I might be wrong, but they certainly have more than us.

I also said, that I do not care about Super Rugby, I support the Pro14.

Now please, stop trying to fabricate an argument.

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:So your logic is that fans of Super Rugby don't question a refs nationality even when he's reffing a team from his home nation, merely because there are enough officials to be impartial? Headscratch

OMG marty, please don't do this. All the bloody time.

Look, I am not, have never said, that the fans of Super Rugby do, or do not do anything, all I said was that Super Rugby have enough refs from each union to go around, I might be wrong, but they certainly have more than us.

I also said, that I do not care about Super Rugby, I support the Pro14.

Now please, stop trying to fabricate an argument.

Fabricate an argument?

You said 'the only reason nationality is not brought into it, is because in super rugby they have enough refs from each country to be impartial'

I have tried to get to the bottom of what you've said but instead of saying you don't know to begin with you made a claim that was wrong and when it's pointed it you have the cheek to try turning it back on me

I was merely pointing out it's not a Pro14 problem but a rugby problem

What does the Pro14 do when the welsh regions depart to join the English? Could a pro10 survive? Where could additional teams be added from? Would it still be financially viable? What would be the probability of the scottish sides following the Welsh regions? Would 6 new teams into the premiership/championship be viable from a money and player welfare side of things?

These are all questions for a thread on the future of the pro14.

Refereeing standards isn't a future discussion for pro14, that's a current issue. The standards aren't good enough in Italian and Scottish and they don't have the numbers to cover Irish/Welsh matches. A few seasons ago it was proved on here that Irish teams have a lower winning percentage when refereed by an Irish ref than they do playing a match with a non-irish-referee. Is that still the case? There are match records and plenty of actual results. Which referees are being biased and why haven't they been investigated, why haven't they been punished.

The thought that a munster referee is going to whistle a game in favour of a leinster team is laughable in my mind.