England vs West Indies - test series thread

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

First topic message reminder :

So England have announced that the squad for this series will be announced today....will try to update as soon as it comes out!

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Umpire Ravi is atrocious

He just guesses and lets DRS do the work

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

171-3 at close of play - England lead by 2 runs

Really good game this - no idea why West Indies haven't bowled Bishoo basically playing with 10 men!

Pitch is tough - if England can get a lead of 150-200 they have a chance. Anything over 200 and I think they're favourites

[Duty281]

Agreed, Olly.

Really crucial first hour tomorrow (tedious cliche, I know); if these two batsmen can build and see off that opening hour, then England will be well set, with Stokes and Ali poised to add firepower down the order.

Lose a couple of early wickets, however, and the Windies will be well on top.

Great Test.

[guildfordbat]

Agreed, Olly.

Really crucial first hour tomorrow (tedious cliche, I know); if these two batsmen can build and see off that opening hour, then England will be well set, with Stokes and Ali poised to add firepower down the order.

Lose a couple of early wickets, however, and the Windies will be well on top.

Great Test.

Hi Duty - nothing wrong with a cliche, especially when it's spot on as that is. To add another and build on your's - England can't win this Test in the first hour tomorrow but they could lose it.

[msp83]

As expected, England slowly fighting their way back into the game. With Stuart Broad to bat 10, and with no spectacular assistance coming from the pitch, this is going to be tough for the West Indies. Root is set to get another test hundred, unless he manage to play a silly shot after passing 50 and if the West Indies decides to catch him. Malan has survived yet again, and though he never did much to change my views about his test class, he has a platform, and on the back of that 65 last game, a score here would see him through to the Ashes team. England's real batting core has lost only Alastair Cook till now, Root, Bairstow and Stokes, as well as Moeen Ali are still there. So I very much expect them to build a lead beyond 200. And in the 4th innings, I think it will be a very difficult for theWest Indies.
Holder bowled well and even looked in parts their best bet, but the lad can't captain. Did he actually pick Bishoo as the number 3 batsman? Was it our mistake that we thought he came out as the nightwatchman? Has Bishoo done a Mark Richardson and turned into a top order bat who bowled spin ones upon a time?

[KP_fan]

-->Less than 200 chase and WI should be favorite
more than 250 and Eng would be favorite
the 200-250 is the in-between zone and can go either way but I would give an edge to WI in this zone

they bat down to No. 9 and it takes a few 30s and 40 to cover those type of totals

--> Most important factor in favor of WI..... Eng's seam bowling has looked too much Anderson dependent....you see him off his spell(s) and life is easier...even on this pitch that was assisting seamer on D3
Broad's game swings between good and medciore and he is going thru a medicore patch...

Woakes as 3rd seamer has lookeed a shadow of his peak and biggest reasons why WI could get 427......not a wise decision to leave out Toby Jones I guess.

So WI has to survive the first 20 overs without too much damage and then they can score freely in the next 60 overs( almost 200 runs) and by the time second new ball comes game is almost gone

--> Eng play harder and wiser test cricket....and are much more likely to convert half chances& use DRS smartly....and less likely to choke in the pressure of tight game when it gets into the home stretch

a 55-45 game in favor of WI is my call right now

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

A factor for WI in my eyes is that they haven't been in position to win many tests recently - if they're chasing 175 where they're expected to win...do they have the mental toughness to deal with that if theyre 15-2...I have my doubts

[msp83]

The WI batting depth is not much to talk about. Holder bats 8 and after that there is nothing. And the top order lacks quality. Even their best batsmen, Brathwaite and Chase, and perhaps Shai Hope. How many current test sides other than Afghanistan, Zimbabwe and Ireland would pick them? England would perhaps pick Brathwaite to partner Cook at the top considering their 5 years of struggle, not sure about any one else. And nobody else would make it to any of the top sides.
And yes, they aren't used to winning or even saving too many test matches. Anyone remember that shot from Gabriel that handed a test match to Pakistan when all they needed was to bat out 7 balls with Roston Chase unbeaten on 100 batting at the other end? I feel a total of 175 is really going to test the West Indies. And if England bat for another 3 hours, they should be there.......

[alfie]

Could be a good finish , eh ? Lots to happen first though...

Didn't stay up after Cook went but I'm encouraged to see England have built on that fairly solid opening partnership to at least stay in the game (though it seems Westley continues to struggle - alas he has not gone on from some initial success against SA ; bowlers have indeed worked him out) Stoneman not a big score but a step in the right direction. As others have said , vital first hour in the morning.

Seem to be mixed views on the pitch ? When I was watching it looked fine for batting : sure the odd ball did a bit - as it has most of the game - but nothing to get excited about. Still not convinced Bishoo will be such a big threat : spinners have taken one wicket in the match in three days - and that was a suicide. Maybe more help for them over the last two days but this is Headingley and I don't expect it to change its basic nature. Balls keeping low mean accurate seam bowling might be more dangerous...

Judging how many West Indies might chase is hard as it depends a lot on how the pitch does wear by the time they get in : if it stays good they might need 250 but that might not be too tough ; but if it does really start to assist the bowlers they might well bowl England out earlier and have a smaller chase...but find it much more challenging. Quite an intriguing situation. Olly makes a good point re nerves potentially affecting a chase.

Weather set fair , I take it ? Let us hope it does indeed go the distance and give us a match to remember.

[KO-KING]

200 lead probably be enough

[guildfordbat]

Mornin' all / evenin' Alfie - amazingly for a Bank Holiday, glorious weather! Same expected tomorrow as well [then rain on Wednesday which will only bother your's truly who was thinking of going to the Oval! ].

I gather that Ben Stokes is in a spot of hot water and could be banned for an Ashes Test if there's any type of re-occurrence. Apparently, swearing in frustration when a ball was edged through the slip area on Saturday evening which was picked up by a Sky mic.

I'm actually pretty supportive of the player here. Sky have muscled themselves into every orifice of the game but then take offence upon behalf of their tv audience when something they have introduced picks up an essentially private comment. For once, I go along with Boycott who suggests the mic should be turned off and cites the example of Jeff Thomson ''swearing every second ball'' but without getting into trouble as it was at himself rather than the batsmen (slightly surprised that was the case but I'll let it go!) or umpires.

From the bits I've seen of this Test, I've actually been impressed by Stokes' conduct and body language. I almost posted about it before this incident came to light - checking a Windies batsman (forget who) was okay when he struck his helmet, applauding Brathwaite's century, warmly congratulating Moeen on his fine catch following his dreadful drop.

[guildfordbat]

Loved this bit of commentary from Ian Ward about Bishoo's last over:
''Five good deliveries and a pie to get Ben Stokes going!''

[eirebilly]

I am at work at the moment so only have the BBC live text coverage. I must admit that it really does annoy me when I read the negative comments about Root not converting. Sure, it was only last test he converted a 50 to 100.

The fact is, he is the most consistent batsmen in England and if he were to convert every 50 he made into 100's, he would be Bradmanesq...

I would love to see him convert more but am more than happy that he is pretty much a guaranteed 50+ nearly every innings. Much better than most batsmen.

[JDizzle]

Malan is currently 35* off 121 balls. Now, it isn't easy and he is new to Test cricket, but the new ball is due in 7 balls and I just wondered whether he could have pushed on a bit more this morning once he had got himself in again. If England lose a couple of cheap ones to the new ball then they are in a terribly precarious position.

But if he goes on to make a match winning ton then I will look like a fool and he will be justified!

[Duty281]

England back in control, but not total control.

A couple of quick wickets with the new ball (if Holder takes it!) will of course alter everything again.

But, at the very least, good to see England apply themselves.

[LionsV2]

Root's conversion rate is something people dismiss because of his average but it simply isn't good enough for a batsmen of his quality. 50's don't win matches.

[guildfordbat]

Rag bag fielding from the West Indies is looking to seriously undermine their good work.

[alfie]

Been a good old fashioned Test Match battle today (haven't seen all of it but what I did is consistent with reports read ) Advantage moving the home team's way gradually but a couple of wickets would change that...
Malan has done a good job , I think. Slightly surprised after watching him play in the white ball caper ; but he's seemingly taken on a sort of Larry Gomes role among the stroke players - arguably what is needed at five in a team with a number of dashers. Is he good enough to carry this task - to Australia , for instance ? Not sure yet ; but he is in pole position for the spot at the moment - as he goes to fifty

[alfie]

Watching all these uncalled - big - no balls from Gabriel it occurs to me that apart from the wear and tear on the bowler that ought to be enforced , England are missing out on quite a few runs to which they are entitled !
Is it time to have the third umpire intervene to retrospectively "call" at least these blatant oversteps ? Clearly the standing umpires just aren't bothering to check ...

They've missed a few wides too , I think. Actually not too impressed with the umpiring in this match all round : the old drs has overturned a fair few too.

[guildfordbat]

Been a good old fashioned Test Match battle today (haven't seen all of it but what I did is consistent with reports read ) Advantage moving the home team's way gradually but a couple of wickets would change that...
Malan has done a good job , I think.  Slightly surprised after watching him play in the white ball caper ; but he's seemingly taken on a sort of Larry Gomes role among the stroke players - arguably what is needed at five in a team with a number of dashers.  Is he good enough to carry this task - to Australia , for instance ?  Not sure yet ; but he is in pole position for the spot at the moment - as he goes to fifty

Interestingly (to me anyway ), Gomes was quite a dasher when he started out but purposely remodelled his game to secure his place as an important supporting act to the West Indies greats.

[alfie]

Your recall of Gomes is undoubtedly correct , guildford - he might be your special subject on Mastermind ? Better than mine to be honest ; I only remember him in that anchoring , turn the strike over , soak up the bowlers' energy style that proved such an admirable foil to the cheerful thumpers around him.

Maybe Malan is taking lessons from history ?

[alfie]

Gabriel has bowled really well ( no balls apart) but I suspected before lunch that he didn't have too much left. He was still rapid enough in that after lunch burst but it didn't have enough dangerous balls and predictably ended up leaking runs. He's going to find it hard to come back again today.
Think Holder didn't want to ask him to bowl a short spell before lunch in case he couldn't come back after the break ; which is why he delayed taking the new ball. Arguably should have taken it nonetheless , and used himself and Roach up to lunch and Gabriel afterwards...

Good hour for England

[alfie]

Drink waiter gets the wicket ...

So nearly six ; but well judged catch by Brathwaite - Stokes gone after a fine innings ...West Indies really needed that !

[alfie]

Malan gone now ...bowled for a handy 61. Suddenly the tourists are right back in this...

I'm blaming Michael Vaughan. He declared at drinks that West Indies looked a beaten team. Should be gagged.

[alfie]

Ball is certainly turning for Chase. And a fair few balls scuttling through low . Batting fourth may not be too easy...but I think England would be hoping for at least one more substantial partnership to get that lead up to more menacing proportions than the current 147. Time for the all rounders to come to the party...

[alfie]

Bairstow throws it way with an unnecessary reverse sweep

England doing their best to give away all the hard work of the last hundred overs...that lead is nowhere near enough. Getting a bad feeling about this...

[alfie]

Moeen and Woakes restoring order...188 ahead at tea.

Still annoyed at Bairstow : he was striking the ball so well with orthodox shots ; didn't need to "get funky". Stokes I can forgive - he just mishit because of the turn out of the rough. Need a few more from the bowlers after tea yet.

Shocking over rate : 54 in two sessions despite Chase bowling quite a few...

[alfie]

Fifty for the admirable Moeen

Think he and Woakes have put England in a pretty good spot now so I think I will call it a night. If there is anyone else there - see you tomorrow for the hopefully entertaining finish to this surprisingly interesting match

[Duty281]

Shame Moeen couldn't get to a ton.

The turning point was likely the Malan drop; had the Windies snaffled that, they would be in a much healthier position.

Likely that this score is beyond the Windies now, but never say never.

[msp83]

A west Indies win can now be safely ruled out. They are most likely to lose this one as well, there is a 20 percent chance of them saving this to start with.

[msp83]

Time for Broad to go mental and slog a few very quickly. England have got more than enough, if anything they need time now to bowl the West Indies out. If they can have them 2 down today, then there will only be one result, should be done and dusted before tea tomorrow. But if Brathwaite, and one of Chase and Shay Hope get going long enough tomorrow, and if they don't have to face too many overs today to lose those 2 early wickets, they might have a chance to save it.

[msp83]

Root should tell Woakes to push on and get to that 50 quickly and then declare. Let Anderson have a crack at Brathwaite in particular in the evening.

[msp83]

And at the end of it all, we can say West Indies dropped their way to a defeat, or they dropped their way through a test that they probably should have won. They dropped close to chances in the double digits? So their bowlers are asked to pick 30 instead of the 20 wickets, that is just not possible!

[Duty281]

England have declared; I'm somewhat surprised as a 320 score is still within the Windies' reach (very narrowly).

350 would have firmly batted the tourists out of contention.

[LionsV2]

Stokes, Bairstow, Ali and Woakes has to be the best 6-9 I've seen in test cricket. It must be disheartening for a team to get us 5 down knowing one or two them invariably makes a decent score.

[Duty281]

Set up for a perfect day tomorrow.

Hope the Windies have the confidence to attack the target, rather than attempting to block out the day.

[msp83]

This West Indies batting lineup getting 320 on the 5th day? For England have to bowl absolutely appalling and even then someone has to produce an extraordinary innings. Just isn't happening!

[msp83]

The only wy West Indis are saving this is by batting normally. Shouldn't block too much, no need to particularly go after the bowling. If they play normally, Root may not always have too many fielders catching, and there is that little bit of chance for the West Indies to see the day through somehow.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

England have declared; I'm somewhat surprised as a 320 score is still within the Windies' reach (very narrowly).

350 would have firmly batted the tourists out of contention.

I have to agree with this - I'd have liked to see England completely bat West Indies out the game

[guildfordbat]

England have declared; I'm somewhat surprised as a 320 score is still within the Windies' reach (very narrowly).

350 would have firmly batted the tourists out of contention.

I have to agree with this - I'd have liked to see England completely bat West Indies out the game

I didn't see the last session. Could we have pushed on more then? Certainly a lead of 350 before any declaration would have put England even more in the ascendancy.

I wouldn't have had the stones to declare with the score as it was when Root did but I can understand why he did. if we had taken a Windies wicket tonight (and few would have regarded that as impossible at the time), I'm sure Root would be being congratulated now on his boldness.

[KO-KING]

West Indies won't chase this down, they survived the few overs yes, but getting a wicket before the close could have been great, can't complain with hindsight, it was good captaincy showing intent, I like cook but he used to let games just float on

I will be truly shocked if West Indies win tomorrow

[Duty281]

Windies have about a 5% chance. It's still quite a decent wicket, though with a bit of turn (Moeen could be key).

If they get to tea and they're only 0/1/2/3/4 down, they will have a great platform to push a demoralised England off the cliff.

But, the overwhelming likelihood is that England chip away and the Windies fall about 120-170 runs short.

[VTR]

The real question is how far ahead Shane Warne would have declared. Probably just after tea?

[KP_fan]

-
--> Eng play harder and wiser test cricket....and are much more likely to convert half chances& use DRS smartly....and less likely to choke in the pressure of tight game when it gets into the home stretch

a 55-45 game in favor of WI is my call right now

that's the factor that came into play today....WI did not know how to play hard test cricket.
they went soft and softer and clue-less...
anyway they are not out of the game yet....

70%Eng win
20% draw
10% WI win

[Dolphin Ziggler]

The battle for Ashes places continues:

Positives for Malan, Stoneman and Woakes, negatives for Westley. Is Woakes bowling well enough though?

Will Wood or Ball make the trip? 

I kinda wanna see Hales in for the craic.

[alfie]

England ended up taking control of this up and down Test Match in that last session - well played by Moeen and Woakes who took full advantage of tired bowlers to set up a declaration ; though they owed a lot to the determined batting by most of the top order earlier in the innings.
Cannot see West Indies making a serious attempt to get the runs : this is a hard ground for a fielding side to stop scoring when batsmen are well on top , true ; and the tourists have the late order firepower to make a charge if they were in a position to do so ; but you wouldn't think England could bowl as poorly as they did in the first innings a second time - quite apart from the fact that enough balls are turning sharply or keeping low to make batting a much more difficult task. Batting out the day isn't out of the question ; but if England can get among them early on while the ball is still hard I suspect they will struggle to survive the overs . That declaration also ensured a second new ball , if needed , will be available with about twenty overs to go - which could be crucial in overcoming late resistance.

I suppose batting on would have given England the security of not having to worry much about restraining scoring and so allowed more attacking fields tomorrow. But I am not sure that matters all that much : if the pitch is doing enough they will probably be able to surround the batsmen in any case ; and if it is more a matter of the odd ball keeping low then they are probably looking more for the lbw/bowled dismissals and close fielders are less essential.

The pattern of the match has actually seen the required run rate managed on days two and four - in both cases when wickets were few and far between . Unless someone is about to play a Mark Butcher special I can't see this happening on day five. Do West Indies have the patience to defend all day ? They didn't at Edgbaston even with two goes in the day...

[alfie]

Ashes selection still has a lot of room for debate. But certainly Stoneman and Malan did themselves no harm here : I'd be surprised if they didn't both make the party now.
Westley will be sweating though. Will he get another chance at Lord's ? It is a pity that arguably the most important spot - the number three - is the one that looks least likely to be settled over this series : the alternate choices (Hales , Ballance , Livingstone ?) all looking more suited to batting lower down. What wouldn't England give for a Trott...
One option would see a "third opener" - ie Hameed , coming in...but more on that later. My gut feel is Westley will get one more shot at the position ; but he'd need to adjust his game quickly...

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

The battle for Ashes places continues:

Positives for Malan, Stoneman and Woakes, negatives for Westley. Is Woakes bowling well enough though?

Will Wood or Ball make the trip? 

I kinda wanna see Hales in for the craic.

Woakes is making the trip, 100%. One bad bowling innings on return doesn't negate the past 18 months when he's been arguably our best bowler

Wood will go if fit as they will want his pace. Not sure about Ball now with the emergence of Roland Jones

Good to see England fight yesterday and then Moeen do Moeen things and be an absolute hero

[KO-KING]

Ball is mediocre to be honest, rj isn't all that, but he's got good basics

Wood
Woakes
Anderson
Broad

Would be ahead of them in my opinion

[Duty281]

Start delayed by 15 minutes due to rain.

Shouldn't be any further delays after that.

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