Pro 14 never mind the Quality feel the Width

Recent comments about expanding Pro14 in the press,to Europe with Spain,Germany,etc
and Canada,and USA.Seems like an attempt to produce.
A PRODUCT without considering the logistics,Politics produced a ruined Super series the
irony being.
The teams threatened with the axe actually got some good results,before succumbing,
teams like.Saracens/Toulon in Cup matches having to travel to SA,USA etc.
It will be interesting to see how NH sides cope with intercontinental away matches
instead of a couple of hundred miles as now.
Things the SH sides have handled as a matter of course,SA has no intention of
leaving SANZAR despite stories to contrary.
Depending how the two SA sides go more SA Franchises may follow allegedly.
NZ no chance an AB shirt is still a lure if only to add to CV for your agent
to hawk around.

Alan - I agree that enthusiasm for having more sides in the Pro14 which are at least a 7 hour flight away will wane after this season when the complexities and demands of even 2 South African trips hit home. There is a clear delineation between the marketing and money people who think that this is all fabulous and people who try to run clubs and look after players who realise that the whole thing could be a sh!t show. 

Personally, I think that this was a fabulous move for South African rugby. It now offers a relatively safe way for SA players who are thinking about a European career to dip their toe in the water and brings in some money which is desperately needed and lets the domestic focus return to the Sharks and Stormers.

emack2 wrote:SA has no intention of leaving SANZAR despite stories to contrary.

Who knows? Not you or I, I suspect.

There is no doubt that commercially it would make sense for the top South African teams to play in an expanded Aviva Premiership, Top14 or an English, French and South African combined league. The time zones make it sensible too and if the fixtures were handled well with teams from SA playing groups of matches in England and vice versa it would be okay from a player welfare point of view. The radical option would to play in the NH summer which again might be commercially attractive as they would not be competing with Wendyball.

In the world of modern sport if something makes sense commercially it tends to happen in the end.

Exiledinborders wrote:

emack2 wrote:SA has no intention of leaving SANZAR despite stories to contrary.

Who knows? Not you or I, I suspect.

There is no doubt that commercially it would make sense for the top South African teams to play in an expanded Aviva Premiership, Top14 or an English, French and South African combined league.  The time zones make it sensible too and if the fixtures were handled well with teams from SA playing groups of matches in England and vice versa it would be okay from a player welfare point of view. The radical option would to play in the NH summer which again might be commercially attractive as they would not be competing with Wendyball.

In the world of modern sport if something makes sense commercially it tends to happen in the end.

Jurie Roux confirmed again this weekend that SARU has no intention of leaving SANZAAR.

There are however rumours floating about that a number of teams want to join Pro 14.

Hello Biltong,
Outside of the two South African sides who just joined why would any SA team want to join the pro 14? Do you mean Super rugby sides? I know that the travel and time difference would be less but what else? Would the money be better in the pro 14 compared to what teams could get in Super rugby? If so I'm shocked. The pro 14 is not a rich league and the sides that make the European cup year after year are still struggling financially. But I never looked into how much money is made by Super rugby. Are super rugby sides in SA really thinking of switching?

Exiled.. it would make sense commercially for Wales, Ireland etc to join an expanded English or French league. It would make sense commercially for Georgia or an American team to join an expanded English or French league. That doesn't mean that it's going to happen. The Italian sides wanted to play in the top 14 and potentially that would be opening a massive second market in Italy in terms of viewers and dip into the fierce rivalry that already exists between these countries in sport and the French refused year after year to do this. Sport does not follow what makes sense commercially in the end. A whole lot of decisions in sport have nothing to do with money at all.

Intotouch wrote:Hello Biltong,
Outside of the two South African sides who just joined why would any SA team want to join the pro 14? Do you mean Super rugby sides? I know that the travel and time difference would be less but what else? Would the money be better in the pro 14 compared to what teams could get in Super rugby? If so I'm shocked. The pro 14 is not a rich league and the sides that make the European cup year after year are still struggling financially. But I never looked into how much money is made by Super rugby. Are super rugby sides in SA really thinking of switching?

Exiled.. it would make sense commercially for Wales, Ireland etc to join an expanded English or French league. It would make sense commercially for Georgia or an American team to join an expanded English or French league. That doesn't mean that it's going to happen. The Italian sides wanted to play in the top 14 and potentially that would be opening a massive second market in Italy in terms of viewers and dip into the fierce rivalry that already exists between these countries in sport and the French refused year after year to do this. Sport does not follow what makes sense commercially in the end. A whole lot of decisions in sport have nothing to do with money at all.

Yes intotouch, thus far the Lions and Sharks have shown interest.

Here is what Jurie Roux said last week.

Rugby
South Africa committed to SANZAAR - Roux
2017-09-01 10:02 SHARE THIS

Jurie Roux (Gallo Images)
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Cape Town - South African Rugby Union chief executive Jurie Roux has re-stated his country's commitment to staying in SANZAAR.

While the Cheetahs and Southern Kings are set to play their first games in the PRO14 competition at the weekend, it is not a sign that South Africa is looking exclusively to a future in Europe.

Roux told the Guardian that leaving SANZAAR was not something South Africa was looking at.

While the existing SANZAAR deal runs until 2020, South Africa is due to host the British and Irish Lions in 2021, a series that would have no future if South Africa turned its future towards Europe.

"This is a very exciting time for South Africa rugby," said Roux.

The connection with the PRO14 gave South Africa options, something it didn't have by a rigid connection with SANZAAR.

"We don't have options in SANZAAR, which means you're actually nowhere and that's not where you want to be," added Roux.

"But we are really good for each other, so we will still participate; we are strong because we play against Australia and New Zealand.

"We can never have eight franchises in SANZAAR, we can have four or five maximum and maybe we'll even go down to three.

"But at least now we have options.

"We still need to play against Australia and New Zealand to be the best, so I don't see the relationship ending but we'll have more exposure up north."

It was possible that more South African teams could be involved in the PRO14 but that wouldn't be discussed until the Cheetahs and Kings had assessed their involvement in that competition.

The Cheetahs play Ulster on Friday in Belfast while the Scarlets host the Kings in Llanelli on Saturday.

Does staying in SANZAAR automatically mean staying in Super Rugby? Could SA be in SANZAAR, play in the RC but have their teams play in the NH?

Jurie Roux intimated that they are looking at 3-4 teams max in Super rugby and 3-4 teams in Europe, whilst playing Australia and New Zealand, which suggests to me RC

Intotouch wrote:Exiled.. it would make sense commercially for Wales, Ireland etc to join an expanded English or French league. It would make sense commercially for Georgia or an American team to join an expanded English or French league. That doesn't mean that it's going to happen. The Italian sides wanted to play in the top 14 and potentially that would be opening a massive second market in Italy in terms of viewers and dip into the fierce rivalry that already exists between these countries in sport and the French refused year after year to do this. Sport does not follow what makes sense commercially in the end. A whole lot of decisions in sport have nothing to do with money at all.

It would make sense commercially for Georgia for Georgia to join an expanded English or French league. That does not mean it makes sense for the English clubs. I am not sure your idea of Italy being a massive second market makes sense. It is a large market but not a large rugby market.

The reason tie ups between the English, French and South African leagues make commercial sense is because they are by a large margin the largest rugby markets.

The history of cricket and wendyball indicate that even if administrators don't want something money talks.

Intotouch wrote:Hello Biltong,
Outside of the two South African sides who just joined why would any SA team want to join the pro 14? Do you mean Super rugby sides? I know that the travel and time difference would be less but what else? Would the money be better in the pro 14 compared to what teams could get in Super rugby? If so I'm shocked. The pro 14 is not a rich league and the sides that make the European cup year after year are still struggling financially. But I never looked into how much money is made by Super rugby. Are super rugby sides in SA really thinking of switching?

Exiled.. it would make sense commercially for Wales, Ireland etc to join an expanded English or French league. It would make sense commercially for Georgia or an American team to join an expanded English or French league. That doesn't mean that it's going to happen. The Italian sides wanted to play in the top 14 and potentially that would be opening a massive second market in Italy in terms of viewers and dip into the fierce rivalry that already exists between these countries in sport and the French refused year after year to do this. Sport does not follow what makes sense commercially in the end. A whole lot of decisions in sport have nothing to do with money at all.

Why would it make sense commercially for Georgia to join an expanded French or English league?

Might make more sense to roll this discussion into the existing PRO14 Future one https://www.606v2.com/t66181p150-the-future-for-the-pro14-part-4-a-global-club-championship

Thank you for your reply Biltong. That's very interesting. So the next sides that SA rugby may look to be include in the pro 14 would be ones that could not get into Super rugby and may be new teams.

Does participating in the pro 14 prevent players from playing in the Springboks due to the timing of international competitions? I think that I read somewhere that this was the case. In this case the best South African players and teams would be competing in Super rugby going forward and the pro 14 players would never be of the highest standard which actually doesn't bode well for the future of the competition and wouldn't encourage the pro 14 to add more teams to it. This venture may put new pressure on establishing a linked global calendar. Otherwise you could have a pro 14 player having a phenomenal season who would be ineligible to play for the Springboks which just sounds awful for the players and the Springboks should this happen.

Regarding the commercial advantages of leagues expanding beyond their national borders: First the teams from outside pay for the privilege of competing in the league (like Italy did) and second a new tv deal and audience is tapped into which if not large or lucrative at present is still more money and potentially a great deal more money if the team does well. Also any time Italy plays France people watch even if the sport isn't soccer. It's a thing.

The answers to your questions re PRO14 SA players are in the other discussion topic intotouch.  Roux has talked about potentially two Bok squads - one for Nov tests using PRO14 players and the other for inbound June tests and Rugby Championship.

It is premature to speculate which SA franchises would participate in which comp.

Personally I think some rotation system would make sense to expose all teams to both hemispheres.

Pot hale, although the two squad system could be an option I think the globla season will simplify matters

In a recent SA radio interview, Harold Verster, Cheetahs CEO said:
"During discussions, some of the other unions said they’d want to look at joining the Pro14 rather than stay where they are. There are lots of positives; we’re in it for three years and then we’ll see from there. The upside is, if we are able to enter into the European Cup, for example, which is still up for negotiation – not for this year, but for the year after – there is the potential for some substantial increases in the financial gains for us.’

The rumour mill has it that both the Lions in Jo'burg and the Durban-based Sharks are the ones showing the most interest. And if the European Cup opens up as an option next year, greater urgency may be required.

Taken from Pot Hales earlier post - could someone clarify for me though "we’re in it for three years and then we’ll see from there" - I thought the deal with Pro14 was for 6 years ?

Intotouch wrote:
Regarding the commercial advantages of leagues expanding beyond their national borders: First the teams from outside pay for the privilege of competing in the league (like Italy did) and second a new tv deal and audience is tapped into which if not large or lucrative at present is still more money and potentially a great deal more money if the team does well. Also any time Italy plays France people watch even if the sport isn't soccer. It's a thing.

Still doesn't answer why Georgia joining an expanded French or English league makes sense

Extra money in tv money doesn't mean extra money for everyone. Do you have any idea how much the Georgian tv market is worth? What would they pay for rugby?

End game would be for South Africa to join the 6N. That is the cash cow. If there franchises were in an European tournament/league then that would give the platform for the national side to jump ship as well.

How much say would world rugby have on that. Would be a huge impact to Argentina aus and nz and cause issues for expanding the nh comp to Georgia while putting italy under increased pressure. That's before the arguments from the club's if considering expansion to the international comp.

For the 6Ns, WR might struggle to stop it because the competition is a privately run one during a Test window

In reality though the only way to make it viable is to keep it at 6 so that would mean ditching Italy which isn't a good idea

marty2086 wrote:

Extra money in tv money doesn't mean extra money for everyone. Do you have any idea how much the Georgian tv market is worth? What would they pay for rugby?

Feck all. It's a country with a population similar to Wales and about 8 times poorer than your average European country. That's why all the talk of them joining the 6 nations or pro14 is naive. Romania would be in a better position but there's little talk of them too.

Lets not forget, the 6N is still an invite only competition. The 6N committee can invite whomever they like to play in the tournament.

Honestly I have been saying this for weeks now. SA are looking for a way to make more money and at the same time keep hold of their best players. They will not do this whilst they are constantly subsidizing southern hemisphere rugby. The money is in the NH, and the 6N is the biggest cash cow there is.

On the subject of the South Africans playing in the European Cups the South Africans seem keen but do the Celtic unions want to make their own qualification more difficult? As it requires the support of the English and French what will they want in return?

But if it's to the detriment of the international game I'm sure wr will be putting their 2 penny worth in. It seems unlikely italy are going to be dropped. You already have Georgia banging on the door for their right to play. Bringing sa in and killing the sh comps more just strengthens nz and aus seeking payments for touring.

Exiled in borders, that's a good point about the Celtic unions not wanting the competition to qualify but the increase in revenue may be essential to keeping the professional game going in these countries so in this sense they may not have a choice but to expand, get more money and maybe lose out on European cup places. I don't really see why the French and English would be hard to persuade as money is the main motivator in decisions there. If they all get more money I'm sure they'd be willing to fit in new teams.

If there is such a bad clash between the two rugby seasons then I'm not sure how competitive South African sides can be. If they'll be in the pro 14 and the European cup without their international players how great are they going to be? Or are they going to rely on foreign imports to fill their squads and up the standards? In which case what's the point? Myself I think that unless there will be a synched rugby calendar the South African pro sides won't be going north. Not the best of them anyway.

As for Georgia in the 6 nations instead of Italy...who knows? It could happen. I hope that rugby in Italy improves in the next five years and this won't be a question raised.

Pothale I know you'd like to merge the threads so maybe ask an administrator to do this. I think there is a way. I like reading the posts by the people on this one so I don't want to abandon it but a merge would be good if as you say there is all this overlap.

Pot Hale wrote:Might make more sense to roll this discussion into the existing PRO14 Future one https://www.606v2.com/t66181p150-the-future-for-the-pro14-part-4-a-global-club-championship

I vote for this too.

There is an interesting article here in the rugby paper about South Africa potentially leaving SANZAR.

http://www.therugbypaper.co.uk/featured-post/28912/top-boks-will-follow-exodus-to-europe/

So talk of screwing over the celtic sides already.

That Rugby Paper article was posted and discussed three weeks ago in the other discussion topic - https://www.606v2.com/t66181-the-future-for-the-pro14-part-4-a-global-club-championship#3608221


Groundhog Day....?