Sean O'Brien on the Lions

First topic message reminder :

Although there might now be some headlines saying "O'Brien Blasts Lions Coaches", I don't think there's anything bitter or malicious about what he's saying. Off the Ball has audio here:

http://www.offtheball.com/Sean-OBrien-The-Lions-should-have-beaten-the-All-Blacks-comfortably-enough-new-zealand

He clearly has mixed feeling about how the tour turned out, and is trying identify where things might have gone better. His comments about over training before the first Test echo the criticism made about Graham Henry's tour in 2001.

“The first week, we definitely over-trained on the Thursday and maybe the coaches were panicking a little bit about getting the information into us. On the first week [of the first Test], we had a triple [session] day, [the] lads’ legs were heavy on the Thursday and we were playing the All Blacks on Saturday.

“We did nearly a similar thing in the last week. So maybe it’s more [from] a coaching point of view, in terms of taking lessons. Less is more sometimes on a tour like that, rather than trying to pick things up at the end of the week.

“There was probably no need for that but it’s just the way it was managed. We had said it, at the time, and they pulled back a bit. But it’s just about getting that fine balance between players and coaches and making sure the group is ready to rock.”

O'Brien says Rob Howley was unable to impose himself on the squad, and he thinks the backs were guided instead by Sexton and Farrell. If so, then that may be one factor behind Gatland's eventual decision to play both men together.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2017/09/20/lions-coaching-staff-blame-new-zealand-series-defeat-says-sean/

ebop wrote:Thanks Laurie, yes us AB fans more than acknowledged and congratulated Ireland's victory in Chicago. Some in NZ even went so far as to celebrate Ireland's win which I thought was taking it a bit far. But then Dublin happened, and wow, what a contrast. Every insult under the sun came out and it was disappointing to witness universal next level bitterness. Never mind, guess it went to show even the Irish can be poor losers.

Well, we werent naive, and Ill bet the lavish praise irked many Irish fans at the time rocking up ready for a barmy but only getting bouquets of flowers thrown at them. we know when we're well beaten.

The Lions effort was a better one for me because it took a much more sustained effort over three tests and they were able to stop the ABs, who were up for it, playing for long periods. Their brand of rugby wasnt one youd base a textbook on but they came to not lose. And succeeded.

And the last 2 sentences back sob thoughts.

Taylorman wrote:

ebop wrote:Thanks Laurie, yes us AB fans more than acknowledged and congratulated Ireland's victory in Chicago. Some in NZ even went so far as to celebrate Ireland's win which I thought was taking it a bit far. But then Dublin happened, and wow, what a contrast. Every insult under the sun came out and it was disappointing to witness universal next level bitterness. Never mind, guess it went to show even the Irish can be poor losers.

Well, we werent naive, and Ill bet the lavish praise irked many Irish fans at the time rocking up ready for a barmy but only getting bouquets of flowers thrown at them. we know when we're well beaten.

The Lions effort was a better one for me because it took a much more sustained effort over three tests and they were able to stop the ABs, who were up for it, playing for long periods. Their brand of rugby wasnt one youd base a textbook on but they came to not lose. And succeeded.

Not really, the Irish fans (and others) just didn't like the fact that some of our team were clotheslined, a tactic that is illegal in the game of rugby. It has little to do with us losing and everything to do with wanting the laws of the game enforced so that we can keep 15 players on the field and have the fairest contest.

The NZ fans/press just don't like hearing anyone criticising their heroes.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Taylorman wrote:

ebop wrote:Thanks Laurie, yes us AB fans more than acknowledged and congratulated Ireland's victory in Chicago. Some in NZ even went so far as to celebrate Ireland's win which I thought was taking it a bit far. But then Dublin happened, and wow, what a contrast. Every insult under the sun came out and it was disappointing to witness universal next level bitterness. Never mind, guess it went to show even the Irish can be poor losers.

Well, we werent naive, and Ill bet the lavish praise irked many Irish fans at the time rocking up ready for a barmy but only getting bouquets of flowers thrown at them. we know when we're well beaten.

The Lions effort was a better one for me because it took a much more sustained effort over three tests and they were able to stop the ABs, who were up for it, playing for long periods. Their brand of rugby wasnt one youd base a textbook on but they came to not lose. And succeeded.

Not really, the Irish fans (and others) just didn't like the fact that some of our team were clotheslined, a tactic that is illegal in the game of rugby. It has little to do with us losing and everything to do with wanting the laws of the game enforced so that we can keep 15 players on the field and have the fairest contest.

The NZ fans/press just don't like hearing anyone criticising their heroes.

Really Rory, yet youre ok with one of youre own knocking one of ours unconscious, then tearing into the tour Ref after theres no chance of being dropped.

Our heroes? Check your own out. Hipocracy at its best.

Plenty of posters have been criticising SOB on here (including Irish posters). I haven't defended him, so I don't see the *hypocrisy.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Plenty of posters have been criticising SOB on here (including Irish posters). I haven't defended him, so I don't see the *hypocrisy.

Fair enough. Good to see. Apologies.

The impressions we all have of other teams are created by their players, coaches, fans and media. It's common on here to see someone say "Don't take any notice of x, that's not what real supporters think". I've probably said the same.

In truth, though, we are always going to notice the negative, and the lines between those groups are blurred anyway. That Andrew Mehrtens comment I posted earlier showed how he came to understand he'd jumped to some big conclusions about England, without really thinking about it, and only realized later how his own team created poor impressions.

I recall Spiro Zavos sounding off at the SRU treatement of Craig Joubert after the last World Cup when it was actually just comments by Gavin Hastings he had in mind. The SRU itself had not been critical of Joubert. Most Australians would say "That's just Spiro", just as English say "That's just Stephen Jones. And, by the way, he's Welsh".

Still, these things always leave a mark, and there's never going to be an official designation of who we should and shouldn't pay attention to.

NZ fans think that when they lose it is the ref's fault not that they were beaten fair and square.

No more than any other nations. Every fan base have games where they question referee decisions. We don't own the rights.

Gwlad wrote:NZ fans think that when they lose it is the ref's fault not that they were beaten fair and square.  

 I cant think of one reason why the referee was the cause of the All Blacks lost in Chicago against Ireland, then again I haven't got an imagination like yours Gwlad.

I don't agree with anybody to say the Lions could have won 3-0, if they'd done this and/or that. Think they overachieved with what they did personally and the subsequent AB games seem to back that up.

Totally agree. It took a SBW red and numerous knock on's by NZ in sight of the try line to scrape a draw.

Taylorman wrote:

Hipocracy at its best.

Hypocrisy, hypocrisy?

How about this for Hypocrisy. A selection of the AB fans claimed the Irish were poor for requesting some AB's be cited after the game in Ireland yet it was ok to cry murder and request that SOB be cited (which he was and was found to have no case to answer) in the Lions test. Still to this day even complaining about it, looking at you ebop.

The continual accusations from certain posters that the ref's were corrupt which led to the Lions drawing the series. Some of the AB fans really need to tighten up and cop themselves on because quite frankly they are looking like very poor sports.

eirebilly wrote:

Taylorman wrote:

Hipocracy at its best.

Hypocrisy, hypocrisy?

How about this for Hypocrisy. A selection of the AB fans claimed the Irish were poor for requesting some AB's be cited after the game in Ireland yet it was ok to cry murder and request that SOB be cited (which he was and was found to have no case to answer) in the Lions test. Still to this day even complaining about it, looking at you ebop.

The continual accusations from certain posters that the ref's were corrupt which led to the Lions drawing the series. Some of the AB fans really need to tighten up and cop themselves on because quite frankly they are looking like very poor sports.

Well I wasnt one of em eirebilly so perhaps make the point using your own brand sparkling new post huh?

And the way the last penalty was handled was a complete debacle. If you cant agree with that then you dont know what youre talking about.

Taylorman wrote:

eirebilly wrote:

Taylorman wrote:

Hipocracy at its best.

Hypocrisy, hypocrisy?

How about this for Hypocrisy. A selection of the AB fans claimed the Irish were poor for requesting some AB's be cited after the game in Ireland yet it was ok to cry murder and request that SOB be cited (which he was and was found to have no case to answer) in the Lions test. Still to this day even complaining about it, looking at you ebop.

The continual accusations from certain posters that the ref's were corrupt which led to the Lions drawing the series. Some of the AB fans really need to tighten up and cop themselves on because quite frankly they are looking like very poor sports.

Well I wasnt one of em eirebilly so perhaps make the point using your own brand sparkling new post huh?

And the way the last penalty was handled was a complete debacle. If you cant agree with that then you dont know what youre talking about.

I did say some AB posters...

I am not sure which 'last penalty' you are referring to but very glad to see that you make an absolute stupid post by stating that if I don't agree with you then I do not know what I am talking about. Proper strawman comment that

eirebilly wrote:

Taylorman wrote:

Hipocracy at its best.

Hypocrisy, hypocrisy?

How about this for Hypocrisy. A selection of the AB fans claimed the Irish were poor for requesting some AB's be cited after the game in Ireland yet it was ok to cry murder and request that SOB be cited (which he was and was found to have no case to answer) in the Lions test. Still to this day even complaining about it, looking at you ebop.

The continual accusations from certain posters that the ref's were corrupt which led to the Lions drawing the series. Some of the AB fans really need to tighten up and cop themselves on because quite frankly they are looking like very poor sports.

 Billy I may not be quoting you verbatim, however I am pretty sure you were the one on here recently saying that the All Blacks get preferential treatment from referees, Whats the difference between saying that and saying referees are corrupt?

1 could be unconcious bias. They other obvious deliberate and a pretty serious accusation.

aucklandlaurie wrote:Billy I may not be quoting you verbatim, however I am pretty sure you were the one on here recently saying that the All Blacks get preferential treatment from referees, Whats the difference between saying that and saying referees are corrupt?

Unconscious bias, as 7 1/2 says, or sometimes just the preference officials across many sports often have for favouring top sides.

aucklandlaurie wrote:
 Billy I may not be quoting you verbatim, however I am pretty sure you were the one on here recently saying that the All Blacks get preferential treatment from referees, Whats the difference between saying that and saying referees are corrupt?

If you are going to accuse me of saying that I accused the AB's of getting preferential treatment then I suggest you quote me in full. I said, "It does appear that the AB's get the rub of the green with the referee's or it could be that I focus more on what they get as they are the best team in the world."

Never did I accuse referee's of being corrupt.

Again, another strawman argument.

Rugby Fan wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote:Billy I may not be quoting you verbatim, however I am pretty sure you were the one on here recently saying that the All Blacks get preferential treatment from referees, Whats the difference between saying that and saying referees are corrupt?

Unconscious bias, as 7 1/2 says, or sometimes just the preference officials across many sports often have for favouring top sides.

 7.5 makes a good point, it would be better if some posters on here voiced their social stereotypes when they were conscious.

eirebilly wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote:
 Billy I may not be quoting you verbatim, however I am pretty sure you were the one on here recently saying that the All Blacks get preferential treatment from referees, Whats the difference between saying that and saying referees are corrupt?

If you are going to accuse me of saying that I accused the AB's of getting preferential treatment then I suggest you quote me in full. I said,  "It does appear that the AB's get the rub of the green with the referee's or it could be that I focus more on what they get as they are the best team in the world."

Never did I accuse referee's of being corrupt.

Again, another strawman argument.

 On 10 September 2017 at 02:28pm you said:

 "That said,I still believe they live a rather charmed life with the referees."

aucklandlaurie wrote:

eirebilly wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote:
 Billy I may not be quoting you verbatim, however I am pretty sure you were the one on here recently saying that the All Blacks get preferential treatment from referees, Whats the difference between saying that and saying referees are corrupt?

If you are going to accuse me of saying that I accused the AB's of getting preferential treatment then I suggest you quote me in full. I said,  "It does appear that the AB's get the rub of the green with the referee's or it could be that I focus more on what they get as they are the best team in the world."

Never did I accuse referee's of being corrupt.

Again, another strawman argument.

 On 10 September 2017 at 02:28pm you said:

 "That said,I still believe they live a rather charmed life with the referees."

When asked to elaborate I said...

eirebilly wrote:

I do not think that the AB's should have more players sent off but I do believe they live a charmed life. They spend more time on the border of the rules than any other team in my opinion. Either that or they are simply the best team in the world and I tend to focus overly on them for that reason alone.

You seem to have missed that one about 2 posts below.

Please come again with another example or just keep digging away, you are not making yourself look very clever.

auklandlaurie,

Since you have again been proven wrong in what you say, please now explain why what I said is equal to, if not worse than, accusing referee's of being corrupt?

eirebilly wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote:

eirebilly wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote:
 Billy I may not be quoting you verbatim, however I am pretty sure you were the one on here recently saying that the All Blacks get preferential treatment from referees, Whats the difference between saying that and saying referees are corrupt?

If you are going to accuse me of saying that I accused the AB's of getting preferential treatment then I suggest you quote me in full. I said,  "It does appear that the AB's get the rub of the green with the referee's or it could be that I focus more on what they get as they are the best team in the world."

Never did I accuse referee's of being corrupt.

Again, another strawman argument.

 On 10 September 2017 at 02:28pm you said:

 "That said,I still believe they live a rather charmed life with the referees."

When asked to elaborate I said...

eirebilly wrote:

I do not think that the AB's should have more players sent off but I do believe they live a charmed life. They spend more time on the border of the rules than any other team in my opinion. Either that or they are simply the best team in the world and I tend to focus overly on them for that reason alone.

You seem to have missed that one about 2 posts below.

Please come again with another example or just keep digging away, you are not making yourself look very clever.

 Billy what really pizzes me of is the constant attacks by the Irish, I am not singling you out or hunting you down, in fact I said a couple of posts back that i was not quoting you verbatim, I was upfront about that. Its the constant negative comments of the ABs getting preferential treatment, charmed life etc etc .

 We all know that when the referees, referee an All Black team they are refereeing a team that is doing things differently to other International teams and at a different pace, however these two points get swept aside and its written off as luck or preferential treatment or a referee not being brave enough or Richie Mccaw went for years labelled a cheat. But hey if people just want to have slanging matches we can do that as well. Very versatile lot us kiwis.

aucklandlaurie wrote:

 Billy what really pizzes me of is the constant attacks by the Irish, I am not singling you out or hunting you down, in fact I said a couple of posts back that i was not quoting you verbatim, I was upfront about that. Its the constant negative comments of the ABs getting preferential treatment, charmed life etc etc .

 We all know that when the referees, referee an All Black team they are refereeing a team that is doing things differently to other International teams and at a different pace, however these two points get swept aside and its written off as luck or preferential treatment or a referee not being brave enough or Richie Mccaw went for years labelled a cheat. But hey if people just want to have slanging matches we can do that as well. Very versatile lot us kiwis.

Now you are just back tracking. Answer the question and show me this versatility you refer to... "explain why what I said is equal to, if not worse than, accusing referee's of being corrupt?"

eirebilly wrote:auklandlaurie,

Since you have again been proven wrong in what you say, please now explain why what I said is equal to, if not worse than, accusing referee's of being corrupt?

 Billy I asked you the question; "Whats the difference between saying that and saying referees are corrupt?"

 Your reply to that question was ' Never did I accuse referees of being Corrupt", that is not answering the question, I thought it was a perfectly fair and legitimate question to ask, In the meantime I will not prejudge your answer therefore will not revert to personal attacks.

Wow, simply wow. no point in even conversing with you auklandlaurie. I have already proved what I said was not what you wrote so no need to even respond. You know exactly what you implied (by means deliberately trying to cherry pick a quote to suit your argument) and are now trying to worm out of it.

eirebilly wrote:Wow, simply wow. no point in even conversing with you auklandlaurie. I have already proved what I said was not what you wrote so no need to even respond. You know exactly what you implied (by means deliberately trying to cherry pick a quote to suit your argument) and are now trying to worm out of it.

 Not at all Billy. You have proven absolutely nothing, 

 I agree that this circular discussion is not progressing, we can resume it next time you infer that the All Blacks get preferential treatment from referees.

aucklandlaurie wrote:

eirebilly wrote:Wow, simply wow. no point in even conversing with you auklandlaurie. I have already proved what I said was not what you wrote so no need to even respond. You know exactly what you implied (by means deliberately trying to cherry pick a quote to suit your argument) and are now trying to worm out of it.

 Not at all Billy. You have proven absolutely nothing, 

 I agree that this circular discussion is not progressing, we can resume it next time you infer that the All Blacks get preferential treatment from referees.

I guess I have shown my inexperience at being able to worm my way in and out of conversations without the slightest bit of remorse for baseless accusations made at others without foundation. Never mind, I will continue to be as I am and remain truthful.

NZ lost = corrupt referee

eirebilly wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote:

eirebilly wrote:Wow, simply wow. no point in even conversing with you auklandlaurie. I have already proved what I said was not what you wrote so no need to even respond. You know exactly what you implied (by means deliberately trying to cherry pick a quote to suit your argument) and are now trying to worm out of it.

 Not at all Billy. You have proven absolutely nothing, 

 I agree that this circular discussion is not progressing, we can resume it next time you infer that the All Blacks get preferential treatment from referees.

I guess I have shown my inexperience at being able to worm my way in and out of conversations without the slightest bit of remorse for baseless accusations made at others without foundation. Never mind, I will continue to be as I am and remain truthful.

I'm the only one calling Poite/Garces dodgy. How else do you explain the debacle of the last unawarded rightful penalty in Test 3? The two French referees colluding together whilst the TMO says 'yeah it's a penalty'.

But alas, it wasn't to be, a drawn series it was. Yet big talking heros like SOB think they should have cleaned sweeped the ABs after that get out of jail free card and after losing games to club sides and after scraping home against 14 men and after leading for a grand total of 3 minutes.

We always knew some Irish like BOD are sooks, after Dublin we found out quite a few were poor losers, and now we also know some like SOB are delusional.

Read was ahead of the kicker so you would agree that it should have been a scrum halfway lions ball. Why are you bothered about something like a missed pen after that?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Read was ahead of the kicker so you would agree that it should have been a scrum halfway lions ball. Why are you bothered about something like a missed pen after that?

Because that does not fid the agenda him and a few of his ilk are pushing.

No he wasn't

Show me evidence 7.5

7.5, maybe you can grow a pair and answer the same question I asked eirebilly (which he answered correctly in fairness).

Did Poite/Garces get the Owens offside call correct?

On that decision I've been pretty clear I thought you can't possibly catch a ball and it be accidental. Doesn't matter though as read was ahead of the kicker.

Ok, so you are saying it 'was' an offside penalty. Show me a photo of Read offside. I've seen dodgy YouTube clips that don't answer the question.

Scrum halfway to lions actually. Hey if you don't know the law on it fair enough maybe you shouldn't comment. As for a photo there's a good video of it attached to the thread. Maybe it'll stop your whining!

I know the law alright

I'm waiting for the photo

But at least you agree that Poite/Garces somehow managed to contrive a drawn game by not awarding the penalty. Guess that's some progress.

Lol. Can't believe you've hovered around the rugby board so much and don't know the laws ebop! Do you pretend to follow rugby as it's so popular in nz? I'm sure no one would care that much if you just came out to say you don't really like it.

7.5 doing his obfuscation thing again

Must be rattled

7.5, do you reckon Barrett would have slotted that penalty? It was in a handy location.

Maybe NZ aren't as good in every sense of the word as you thought they are Ebop? November will be interesting. Shame they aren't playing England or Ireland.

NZ are good in almost every area except their fans are often, as demonstrated here, arrogant and unsportsmanlike.

Unsportsmanlike is a bit harsh. Yes collapse2005, it is a shame we don't play those sides this year. Especially as some England fans think they are the No1 team at the moment.

ebop wrote:Unsportsmanlike is a bit harsh. Yes collapse2005, it is a shame we don't play those sides this year. Especially as some England fans think they are the No1 team at the moment.

Now you've got me curious. Which England fans have been saying that?

Rugby Fan wrote:

ebop wrote:Unsportsmanlike is a bit harsh. Yes collapse2005, it is a shame we don't play those sides this year. Especially as some England fans think they are the No1 team at the moment.

Now you've got me curious. Which England fans have been saying that?

7.5

He thinks Ireland and ABs are fighting it out for No2

ebop wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:

ebop wrote:Unsportsmanlike is a bit harsh. Yes collapse2005, it is a shame we don't play those sides this year. Especially as some England fans think they are the No1 team at the moment.

Now you've got me curious. Which England fans have been saying that?

7.5

He thinks Ireland and ABs are fighting it out for No2

There you go 7.5, you've got him on the ropes now....some England fans

Gwlad wrote:

ebop wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:

ebop wrote:Unsportsmanlike is a bit harsh. Yes collapse2005, it is a shame we don't play those sides this year. Especially as some England fans think they are the No1 team at the moment.

Now you've got me curious. Which England fans have been saying that?

7.5

He thinks Ireland and ABs are fighting it out for No2

There you go 7.5, you've got him on the ropes now....some England fans

Pretty arrogant from 7.5