Ulster Rugby 2017-18

First topic message reminder :

Rory Best (hamstring)
Marcell Coetzee (knee)
Craig Gilroy (back)
Chris Henry (larynx)
Rob Lyttle (shoulder)
Al O'Connor (concussion)
Jared Payne (headaches)
Dave Shanahan (hamstring)
Nick Timoney (ankle)
Schalk van der Merwe (shoulder)

Interesting that Cooney is on the bench Pete, is the new messiah not the first choice at Ulster for big games?

As for Owens, I know people say he is the best ref and I sort of tend to agree but he has some very odd moments in matches were he is not consistent in his rulings.

Correct me if I’m wrong. So actually hooking because it’s one foot off the ground, weakens your front row against an opposition shove. So if hooker delays his strike till after ball has been fed directly to second row, how in the hell is that nothing more than a warning, and a penalty against the opposition despite the fact you benefited by not following the rules and instructions the ref gave you.

Ulster defending like mad but getting pinged for going in at the side. Is it only the defensive team that is not allowed to enter from the side because La Rochelle were all over the show there...

Lealiifano gets over the ball and La Rochelle player comes in from the side to clear him out, no penalty. Ulster player goes in from the side and penalty given?

Fair play Nigel. All is forgiven.

Cooney at10... interesting

Piatau tackled around the neck there, did not look comfortable for him.

How many arms around necks are going to be missed today??

I honestly thought that the TMO was going to look at the tackle around the neck on Piatau then when he called Owens up.

Clearly in touch.

Beautiful from Vito though

eirebilly wrote:Interesting that Cooney is on the bench Pete, is the new messiah not the first choice at Ulster for big games?

Not so fast there Billy ny good man, I'm surprised he's been used so soon too be honest but his bench place has been answered by how he's been used. I thought he was being saved for the Leinster game as he injured his hand last year but it seems he was there as 9 and 10 cover. I doubt we can do anything now at all, he's a brilliant 9 but a 10 he is not. A bonus point even looks out of our reach now.

The clear high tackle missed on Charles before that last try was the biggest turning point IMO.

At this stage I’d just like to see some more moments from ulster to be positive about. Might be unlikely withCooney at 10.

Whatever about Paul Marshall, he has some massive balls. Taking the penalty kick to touch so quick and making a great touch. Self confidence has never been his issue has it?

We seriously need to improve our exits, we've conceded too many tries from poor execution of our exit strategy this season and put ourselves under too much pressure. Especially when we are up against teams with some big units like La Rochelle have

True Marty, but we also put ourselves under pressure back into our 22 a number of times through basic errors and brain farts.

I guess I never looked or thought about it at the time, but Cooney was always our backup ten option today? Yay, let’s scrap that idea please.

That's cumulative as much as anything clive, when you're forcing it and stuck in your own 22 the precision needs to be spot on. La Rochelles line speed today was fantastic and we couldn't live with it.

Cooney is a half decent 10 but coming into that situation and the lack of execution around him didn't help. I think Marshall should have come on a lot sooner and given him support with kicking etc

When we did get in their 22 and play we caused them problems

It's unfair to blame Cooney or anyone else for that matter. LR were simply better. When Ulster come up against a superior pack they only stand a chance if their backs are better, and they weren't. That game was a reminder of Toulon in Belfast where Ulster were outplayed man for man (except Piutau).

Exactly, Cooney isn't an outhalf but unfortunately needs must. I we'd had Jackson, Olding, Coetzee and Deysel all playing things may have turned out differently or at least we'd have seen a better challenge. Ifs and whatevers won't change the fact that La Rochelle are a better outfit across the board and with a couple of all blacks to arrive in their camp and Brock James to return soon they will only get better. I think they'll make the final this year.

To round off a miserable weekend, Cornish Pirates beat the A Team 23-14

We could and I think should get 8 points from Quins, it's just a shame we've to wait 6 weeks to play them as they are in disarray at the minute and made a poor Wasps look good

The Leinster game could decide our season, if we bounce back and get a result then it will show our mettle if not then we go to SA on the back of two big defeats and some big names unavailable

marty2086 wrote:To round off a miserable weekend, Cornish Pirates beat the A Team 23-14

We could and I think should get 8 points from Quins, it's just a shame we've to wait 6 weeks to play them as they are in disarray at the minute and made a poor Wasps look good

The Leinster game could decide our season, if we bounce back and get a result then it will show our mettle if not then we go to SA on the back of two big defeats and some big names unavailable

Any word on how VdM played or didn't as the case may be?
Quins have not looked at the races at all, both Treviso and Zebre look better at the moment. The AP only has a few of teams that can live with the Pro14 sides at the moment.

I don't think that result yesterday is a big shock to anyone including the coaching team who had one eye on the Leinster game and short turnaround. Leinster look like their hitting a nice bit bit of form but are no LaRochelle and they wouldn't have lived with the French side yesterday either. It's not as huge a mountain to climb on Friday night and I do believe we can get a result, sometimes the need to bounce back can galvanise like nothing else.

Well that was a bit of reality check. It was like watching a middle weight boxer take on a heavyweight and made difficult viewing at times.

La Rochelle look frightening and will take some beating at home but really we should have come away with something, even a 4 try bonus point.

Unfortunately we have no plan B under Kiss, it is just either McCloskey (who had a good game) on the crash ball, or the ball out the back with McCloskey the decoy. Once La Rochelle clicked on to this they were comfortable defending and able to just turn us over and hit on the counter where they were devastating.

The kicking game was effective on the few times we used it but really we have flattered to deceive in the pro 14 and were always going to come unstuck with this one dimensional high tempo running game.

Our back row is far too slow as well to keep up with the play, which contributed to the turnovers. Going into such a big game with no fly half on the bench is crazy as well.

4 point from 2 games is not great and we'll need to pick up a few bonus wins against Quins as can see us loosing the return games against Wasps and La Rochelle.

Did we watch the same game rodders?

Our plan B was our kicking which was woeful, how many times did kicks not go to touch? And Lealiifanos kick off that ballooned into the air and didn't go 10

Plus Cooneys kick from in goal that gave La Rochelle a lineout 5m from the line

We don't have the resources to compete, it's that simple.
We were forced to part with Ruan and to add to that we've lost our starting 10 for the season. We've also lost our most influential backrow player in Coetzee and were without his partner in crime Deysel yesterday. We've also had to do without Payne and Best, the former's playing career having come to a complete halt. Yesterday we had our 2 most geriatric wingers playing one of which can still make a decent account of himself, the other looks like his mojo is gone.
We were already handicapped by the IRFU's policies compared to policies across Europe. Ulster have been further handicapped by injuries and omissions beyond their control. It could be a long season and I wouldn't expect to get out of the group in Europe or be anywhere near silverware in the Pro14. It'll be the making of some of our young players and demise of some of the older ones. In Europe it's an uphill task even with a full squad strengthened by a number of quality foreign players.

Pete330v2 wrote:We don't have the resources to compete, it's that simple.
We were forced to part with Ruan and to add to that we've lost our starting 10 for the season. We've also lost our most influential backrow player in Coetzee and were without his partner in crime Deysel yesterday. We've also had to do without Payne and Best, the former's playing career having come to a complete halt. Yesterday we had our 2 most geriatric wingers playing one of which can still make a decent account of himself, the other looks like his mojo is gone.
We were already handicapped by the IRFU's policies compared to policies across Europe. Ulster have been further handicapped by injuries and omissions beyond their control. It could be a long season and I wouldn't expect to get out of the group in Europe or be anywhere near silverware in the Pro14. It'll be the making of some of our young players and demise of some of the older ones. In Europe it's an uphill task even with a full squad strengthened by a number of quality foreign players.

We really don't have the resources, either in terms of depth or talent.

We've never really had much squad depth. Not in the last decade or so, certainly not in the forwards but I was thinking about this recently - for the last 6 or so years I really believed that if we showed up with our 1st XV we'd beat just about anybody. I mean really showed up. Played to our ability like we did in Thomand in the quarter final, those two Leicester games, Northampton in Franklin gardens, Clermont at home, etc. We'd lose finals and fluff big games, but on the odd day we'd put the very best to the sword.

But this last year or so I can't say that anymore. With Pienaar gone, and a lot of the rest of the squad aging we just have so few top players who are near their prime. Piutau certainly, Henderson, Cooney, LMarshall maybe. A few are growing into their positions, more still past their best.

La Rochelle budget is 7million Euro more than ours - you cant compete with that.

Reality is Leinster are the only Pro14 team with any chance of winning the European Cup for the foreseeable future and that is a slim chance

geoff999rugby wrote:La Rochelle budget is 7million Euro more than ours - you cant compete with that.

Reality is Leinster are the only Pro14 team with any chance of winning the European Cup for the foreseeable future and that is a slim chance

The advantage for Leinster being that chunks of their squad are paid for by the IRFU budget as well as their own because of the number of players they have been able to develop for Ireland, they can almost play two XVs capable of competing against most teams

The rest of the provinces need to follow that blueprint, though it's far easier said than done

Thought this might be of interest on here, apparently Ulster and Q Radio have a podcast that started back in February

Ulster Rugby Podcast

marty2086 wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:La Rochelle budget is 7million Euro more than ours - you cant compete with that.

Reality is Leinster are the only Pro14 team with any chance of winning the European Cup for the foreseeable future and that is a slim chance

The advantage for Leinster being that chunks of their squad are paid for by the IRFU budget as well as their own because of the number of players they have been able to develop for Ireland, they can almost play two XVs capable of competing against most teams

The rest of the provinces need to follow that blueprint, though it's far easier said than done

Neither Munster or Ulster have the hinterland required (number of potential players available).
I would also take a bet with anyone Leinster will not win the European Cup prior to the 2023 either.
As we are now down, effectively, down to 3 NIQ we are no longer at the top table.

We have had a great system that has served Irish rugby superbly for the last 2 decades but noe the French have moved away from us and the English are slowly but surely doing the same.
That is the brutal truth

Zebo leaving this summer - he wont be the last, by a long chalk

geoff999rugby wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:La Rochelle budget is 7million Euro more than ours - you cant compete with that.

Reality is Leinster are the only Pro14 team with any chance of winning the European Cup for the foreseeable future and that is a slim chance

The advantage for Leinster being that chunks of their squad are paid for by the IRFU budget as well as their own because of the number of players they have been able to develop for Ireland, they can almost play two XVs capable of competing against most teams

The rest of the provinces need to follow that blueprint, though it's far easier said than done

Neither Munster or Ulster have the hinterland required (number of potential players available).
I would also take a bet with anyone Leinster will not win the European Cup prior to the 2023 either.
As we are now down, effectively, down to 3 NIQ we are no longer at the top table.

We have had a great system that has served Irish rugby superbly for the last 2 decades but noe the French have moved away from us and the English are slowly but surely doing the same.
That is the brutal truth

Zebo leaving this summer - he wont be the last, by a long chalk

Not only will more players move away but it'll be harder and harder to attract the quality players and the ticket selling names to Ireland while the IRFU maintain their current posture on the subject. I said it on here a few years ago that the NIQ policy was slowly strangling the provinces, I was wrong, it's blasting them in the face with a shotgun. The retention of players in Ireland is vital but bravely sticking by your guns on your sinking ship won't end well. Leinster are well ahead of the other provinces in both the players available and quality but as Geoff said, they aren't capable of winning the European Cup for the foreseeable future.

A Wasps fan just told me that Marty Moore is leaving them at the end of the season and joining Ulster.

Artful_Dodger wrote:A Wasps fan just told me that Marty Moore is leaving them at the end of the season and joining Ulster.

That was the rumour doing the rounds last week.

We certainly could do with him because the scrum seems to have gone backwards a bit this year even with a dedicated scrum coach in.

I do worry about Herbst. There was a point were he was looking like an Ireland bench place when he qualified ..... with the emergence of Furlong and his drop in form he's a distance off that now.

Artful_Dodger wrote:A Wasps fan just told me that Marty Moore is leaving them at the end of the season and joining Ulster.

I had heard he was leaving Wasps along with Le Roux as they weren't seen as value for money, so a pay rise to come to Ulster?

geoff999rugby wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:La Rochelle budget is 7million Euro more than ours - you cant compete with that.

Reality is Leinster are the only Pro14 team with any chance of winning the European Cup for the foreseeable future and that is a slim chance

The advantage for Leinster being that chunks of their squad are paid for by the IRFU budget as well as their own because of the number of players they have been able to develop for Ireland, they can almost play two XVs capable of competing against most teams

The rest of the provinces need to follow that blueprint, though it's far easier said than done

Neither Munster or Ulster have the hinterland required (number of potential players available).
I would also take a bet with anyone Leinster will not win the European Cup prior to the 2023 either.
As we are now down, effectively, down to 3 NIQ we are no longer at the top table.

We have had a great system that has served Irish rugby superbly for the last 2 decades but noe the French have moved away from us and the English are slowly but surely doing the same.
That is the brutal truth

Zebo leaving this summer - he wont be the last, by a long chalk

The IRFUs policy of not picking players based outside of Ireland will make Irish players more attractive to French clubs like with the Pacific Islanders they don't induce to not play test rugby, for a bit extra those players not guaranteed a spot for Ireland can earn more playing in France and not always every week.

Ulster have Henderson, Payne and Best in the last year of their central contracts and Gilroy, Cave and Marshall are in the last year of their contracts too so we could be seeing Ulsters budget and the IRFUs policy tested very soon

marty2086 wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:La Rochelle budget is 7million Euro more than ours - you cant compete with that.

Reality is Leinster are the only Pro14 team with any chance of winning the European Cup for the foreseeable future and that is a slim chance

The advantage for Leinster being that chunks of their squad are paid for by the IRFU budget as well as their own because of the number of players they have been able to develop for Ireland, they can almost play two XVs capable of competing against most teams

The rest of the provinces need to follow that blueprint, though it's far easier said than done

Neither Munster or Ulster have the hinterland required (number of potential players available).
I would also take a bet with anyone Leinster will not win the European Cup prior to the 2023 either.
As we are now down, effectively, down to 3 NIQ we are no longer at the top table.

We have had a great system that has served Irish rugby superbly for the last 2 decades but noe the French have moved away from us and the English are slowly but surely doing the same.
That is the brutal truth

Zebo leaving this summer - he wont be the last, by a long chalk

The IRFUs policy of not picking players based outside of Ireland will make Irish players more attractive to French clubs like with the Pacific Islanders they don't induce to not play test rugby, for a bit extra those players not guaranteed a spot for Ireland can earn more playing in France and not always every week.

Ulster have Henderson, Payne and Best in the last year of their central contracts and Gilroy, Cave and Marshall are in the last year of their contracts too so we could be seeing Ulsters budget and the IRFUs policy tested very soon

Henderson will be on a Central Contract for absolute certain.
Best will be given a contract for one year to take him to the World Cup
I wonder if Payne will play much more rugby - a few token appearances but I would not be surprised if he was finished
As for Cave as I said don't be surprised if he leaves and anyway will not be offered any more than he is on now.

Gilroy and Marshall will be given decent Ulster contracts and stay
They can see what is coming - a lot of dead wood on the wane - Payne (probably), Trimble, Bowe, McFadden, Kearney x2.
Zebo away, Olding almost certain to leave.
Gaps are opening up fast in the Irish backs - only Aki really rated at Connaught, Earls, Scannell and Sweetnam in Munster, only a couple of lads coming through at Leinster - it is all to play for.

If Moore comes north he wont be given a pay rise  - he needs to prove himself after his spell at Wasps
Also don't forget Ulster will have Piatau and quite possibly Coetzee salaries to use next year

Cooney, Leali'ifano and Herbst all doubts for the Leinster game. That'll be advantage Leinster.

Pete330v2 wrote:Cooney, Leali'ifano and Herbst all doubts for the Leinster game. That'll be advantage Leinster.

SOB back for Leinster too

marty2086 wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:Cooney, Leali'ifano and Herbst all doubts for the Leinster game. That'll be advantage Leinster.

SOB back for Leinster too

Worse than all that we've got Lacey directing proceedings.

Pete330v2 wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:Cooney, Leali'ifano and Herbst all doubts for the Leinster game. That'll be advantage Leinster.

SOB back for Leinster too

Worse than all that we've got Lacey directing proceedings.

Well at least we know Lacey will be............. interesting for both teams

Never seems to like how Ulster scrummage though, be interesting to see his interpretation on Saturday

With the seeming possibility of Rodney starting I could probably tell you now how he'll interpret our scrums. Retreating!!!

Should we start a pool on what minute Rodney will be carded?

marty2086 wrote:Should we start a pool on what minute Rodney will be carded?

Shotgun 46th minute.

Redman wrote:

marty2086 wrote:Should we start a pool on what minute Rodney will be carded?

Shotgun 46th minute.

I'd have said just before half time too but in the negative, pessimistic form I'm in this week I'd say 19th minute. Repeated walking backwards infringements.

Pete330v2 wrote:

Redman wrote:

marty2086 wrote:Should we start a pool on what minute Rodney will be carded?

Shotgun 46th minute.

I'd have said just before half time too but in the negative, pessimistic form I'm in this week I'd say 19th minute. Repeated walking backwards infringements.

I'm not going to win any awards for originality but has to be no arms tackle for me.

34th min. Leading with the forearm.

So if you shop around the odds are 11/10 for Ulster and Evens for Leinster.

I can see those odds shoot up significantly for Ulster if Cooney or Leali'ifano aren't available.

Team for tomorrow:

(1-8): Callum Black, Rory Best, Rodney Ah You, Alan O'Connor, Iain Henderson (Capt), Sean Reidy, Chris Henry, Jean Deysel;
(9-15): Aaron Cairns, Christian Lealiifano, Jacob Stockdale, Stuart McCloskey, Luke Marshall, Tommy Bowe, Charles Piutau.

Replacements (16-23): Rob Herring, Andy Warwick, Ross Kane, Kieran Treadwell, Robbie Diack, Jonny Stewart, Peter Nelson, Louis Ludik.

Maybe not what we'd want to see but interesting. Give the youth a lash, could be genius or idiocy, we'll know at the 80 minute mark.

Surely the odds will transform now

Leinster: (15-9) R Kearney; A Byrne, R O’Loughlin, N Reid, D Kearney; R Byrne, J Gibson-Park; (1-8) J McGrath, J Tracy, T Furlong, D Toner, J Ryan, D Leavy, J Murphy, S O’Brien (capt).


Replacements: (16-23) R Strauss, C Healy, A Porter, R Molony, J Conan; L McGrath, C Marsh, J Larmour.

Nice to see Leinster giving us a chance and playing their 2nd string