Ulster Rugby 2017-18

First topic message reminder :

Rory Best (hamstring)
Marcell Coetzee (knee)
Craig Gilroy (back)
Chris Henry (larynx)
Rob Lyttle (shoulder)
Al O'Connor (concussion)
Jared Payne (headaches)
Dave Shanahan (hamstring)
Nick Timoney (ankle)
Schalk van der Merwe (shoulder)

clivemcl wrote:I'll be honest (and I say this in admission that I know less than the rest of you), but I don't even know which of you all to believe anymore.
I mean no disrespect. I don't mean to imply you are biased or misguided. I just have seen various people on here claim they know the problem, and then once the problem is addressed and failure continues, you hop to another theory of who is to blame.

It just all feels hopeless is all.

I could believe some of you when you say Kiss has to go, and then wouldn't be surprised if Kiss left and we still didn't improve. Same goes for Logan or Bryn or whoever. You guys might almost convince me, but being honest I wouldn't be surprised to find out all your claims of solution don't work either.

In the same way as getting rid of Anscombe didnt improve UR that I can see. The wait for Kiss was no worthwhile despite what i was told. The getting rid of Doak and Clarke has not dramatically changed our on field performances. etc etc...

I don't mean to dismiss all the discussion on here, I just find it hopeless, and am very wary of believing in supposed solutions anymore.

If you are coming to an opinion based forum expecting to find genuine answers or solutions to problems...well, you're seriously doing the internet wrong. Take everything you read with a pinch of salt and form your own judgements.

I guess I must be one of the rare internet users who actually considers the possibility that others might have knowledge or insight that I may find interesting or useful.

I don't expect anyone here to have a silver bullet remedy, but if people didnt think their opinions were correct and worth voicing, they wouldn't post them.

I'm not lambasting anyone here, I'm just saying I'm seriously confused now about where the actual problem lies.

I mean we could change management and coaches forever and then just conclude our players don't care enough... (Not saying thats the case, just it's maybe as likely as anything else)

clivemcl wrote: I could believe some of you when you say Kiss has to go, and then wouldn't be surprised if Kiss left and we still didn't improve. Same goes for Logan or Bryn or whoever. You guys might almost convince me, but being honest I wouldn't be surprised to find out all your claims of solution don't work either.

In the same way as getting rid of Anscombe didnt improve UR that I can see. The wait for Kiss was no worthwhile despite what i was told. The getting rid of Doak and Clarke has not dramatically changed our on field performances. etc etc...

I wouldn't be surprised if Kiss left and nothing improved either, or Logan or Bryn.
As Ferris said there are issues with individuals but the problem goes deeper than that

Anscombe, Doak and Clarke had to go because of the professional way they conducted themselves not because they were underperforming
(although in my view Clarke was both unprofessional and underperforming)

There is a solution but we will never know because it wont happen.
It is, in part, why I am giving up my season ticket - I can see no realistic way Ulster will be competitive in the years ahead - on a par with Cardiff and Edinburgh in 2/3 years I reckon.

clivemcl wrote:

rodders wrote:

Herring, Treadwell, Ludik, Marshall, Cooney, Gilroy, Reidy etc. are good players but it not likely to strike fear in the other pro 14 teams let alone Europe.

Sorry to be pessimistic but it is really frustrating to see the club in such a mess again after turning things around a few years ago.

I would say though... the players I've bolded certainly are capable of being players who could strike fear in the other pro 14 teams. They maybe just haven't shown that, at least not consistently.
But consistency surely wouldn't be an unreasonable expectation would it if other factors were as they should be.

Clive these are all good players don't get me wrong, but over the next few season these guys will become the spine of the team and with respect to all of them that is a pretty weak looking side.

If thing continue on the current trajectory Henderson, if he stays, will be the only genuine international class player we have by 2019, maybe Stockdale if he continues to push on.

That is pretty worrying.

geoff999rugby wrote:The way schools are obstructive - driven in large part by the holy grail that is the Schools cup
Certain schools getting average players into the set up over better players from elsewhere
Who you know is more important than what you know
The underachieving of the clubs - none in the top tier
Blazers who are more interested in a jolly than helping the rugby side of things
Dublin not engaging equally with Ulster as they do with Munster, let alone Leinster
A CEO who things money is everything and has no understanding of the game
A DoR who was put in place by those ill equipped to understand what Ulster needed
Nucoifora

That is scratching the surface

Clive here is my view from a previous post

It's why Ferris spoke of root and branch changes, it's the accumulation of issues that are the problem rather than one singular problem.

geoff, when Logan spoke of making Ulster the best team and all that spiel, I take it there was no actual blueprint put in place to do it and there still isn't?
It's just been a case of throwing stuff at the wall and seeing what works?

rodders wrote:

clivemcl wrote:

rodders wrote:

Herring, Treadwell, Ludik, Marshall, Cooney, Gilroy, Reidy etc. are good players but it not likely to strike fear in the other pro 14 teams let alone Europe.

Sorry to be pessimistic but it is really frustrating to see the club in such a mess again after turning things around a few years ago.

I would say though... the players I've bolded certainly are capable of being players who could strike fear in the other pro 14 teams. They maybe just haven't shown that, at least not consistently.
But consistency surely wouldn't be an unreasonable expectation would it if other factors were as they should be.

Clive these are all good players don't get me wrong, but over the next few season these guys will become the spine of the team and with respect to all of them that is a pretty weak looking side.

If thing continue on the current trajectory Henderson, if he stays, will be the only genuine international class player we have by 2019, maybe Stockdale if he continues to push on.

That is pretty worrying.

rodders, how many world class players do Exeter have? They are littered with internationals but only one, two at most are first choice if they even get picked for a squad yet are able to compete at the top end.

It's great to have world players but if you don't bring them together you have 15 players rather than one team

Exactly Exeter for example have Dollman, Woodburn, Whitten, Steenson in their first choice backs - none of them out of the ordinary but well coach, play to their strengths and it works very very well.

Slade has a bit of star dust and Nowell is a class winger.
Man for man we are more than their equal
Collectively though we are a country mile behind them.

marty2086 wrote:It's why Ferris spoke of root and branch changes, it's the accumulation of issues that are the problem rather than one singular problem.

geoff, when Logan spoke of making Ulster the best team and all that spiel, I take it there was no actual blueprint put in place to do it and there still isn't?
It's just been a case of throwing stuff at the wall and seeing what works?

Bullsh*t is the word you are looking for.

An aspiration with no thought on how to make it happen

marty2086 wrote:It's why Ferris spoke of root and branch changes, it's the accumulation of issues that are the problem rather than one singular problem.

geoff, when Logan spoke of making Ulster the best team and all that spiel, I take it there was no actual blueprint put in place to do it and there still isn't?
It's just been a case of throwing stuff at the wall and seeing what works?

Exactly, trying to find one big solution wrapped in a box with a nice bow on top is just ludicrous.

If I could offer my own opinion (and just to answer Clive, I really don't know what world you live in, but people give their opinions continuously without much regard to its accuracy) I think it was a mistake to clear the coaching team with the exception of Kiss. It's a bit like having a house built on weak foundations, so you just knock down the house and build another one. The foundations are still flimsy, so the problem still persists.

Gibbes should have been given the reins with his own coaching team and an entirely fresh setup.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
Gibbes should have been given the reins with his own coaching team and an entirely fresh setup.

Why though? Problem is we brought in Kiss with no DoR experience so why would Gibbes be better at it has less experience at it than Kiss

That's been Ulster's problem for a couple of seasons now. A group of players, irrespective of their individual abilities, are no good to any club, a team/squad of players is. Ulster for too long have had the group and that shows one thing, a lack of coaching and leadership. Our last great leader was at the match at the weekend, it's a shame we couldn't have given him Schalk VdM's ticket to Belfast. Rory Best, for all his attributes has never been inspirational as a leader. Coetzee showed signs of what it takes but that's meaningless now. They say you need a number of on-field leaders in rugby, right now I'd settle for just one.
Off field I think we need to give certain people time, others the boot. Kiss was undoubtedly weighed down by dumb and dumber but after seeing our defence this season I'm not sure why he didn't go with them. Maybe he should be given a clean slate but proving time is nearly up. Gibbes, Peel and Dundon can't stamp their mark on this squad overnight and deserve to be given time as any shiney new coaching team should. I didn't think we'd see anything of note before Christmas truth be told so we should be patient.
I still believe we could have any coaching team behind the scenes but without at least one inspiration on the field we're doomed to failure.
I won't even start on what the IRFU's policies are doing to us.

marty2086 wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
Gibbes should have been given the reins with his own coaching team and an entirely fresh setup.

Why though? Problem is we brought in Kiss with no DoR experience so why would Gibbes be better at it has less experience at it than Kiss

Because he has essentially inherited a dysfunctional coaching setup, so we will never know if Gibbes would have done a better job with his own setup up or not. If a coaching clear-out was on the cards, then they should have went the full way and removed Kiss as well. If Kiss really was a crucial part of the problem with the previous setup, which he could well have been, then we haven't solved a thing.

Again, might I reiterate that I (like most on here) do not have the foggiest idea what is actually going on, but that is my take. For all I know the players could love working with Les Kiss. Or, they could have no respect for him at all. I just don't know. The results are rather telling, though.

Pete330v2 wrote:Rory Best, for all his attributes has never been inspirational as a leader.

Completely, 100% disagree.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:Rory Best, for all his attributes has never been inspirational as a leader.

Completely, 100% disagree.

That is your opinion and mine is that he's a fantastic player and a gentleman but as far as inspiration goes he falls way short of the likes of Muller or O'Connell, the kind of players that I consider inspirations to all. Rory just doesn't come close IMO.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:Rory Best, for all his attributes has never been inspirational as a leader.

Completely, 100% disagree.

Me too.

If Rory doesn't cut it as an inspirational leader, I'd be curious to know who you think Munster and Leinster and other clubs have currently in the Muller/O'Connell mould. Aren't those example of leaders that are quite rare to find?

I also would counter, that whilst some leaders are leaders because of some natural talent or disposition for such, but others become leaders because coaches or mentors or previous leaders grab them and put the challenge to them. 'You have to stand up and lead this group, or nobody else will'. Or perhaps thats just my imagination tainted by Hollywood blockbuster thinking.

If we are debating the future of Ulster rugby.

The qualities of Best as a leader is irrelevant

Munster and Leinster have a number of onfield leaders so don't require that one outstanding figure. Connacht have Muldoon who's their talismanic presence.
We had our talismanic, inspirational leader in Muller but since he left nobody has touched him in that respect. Pienaar was our talisman but not a leader. Even with the likes of Best and Henry on the pitch we've been at a complete loss for some game management and leadership which belies belief considering their vintage

OK I'm going to throw it out there

Andy Farrell, is he the answer?

Leadership on the field is not a major issue.

There are numerous far bigger issues at Ulster rugby

Honestly for what it's worth my opinion is that the whole setup of Ulster Rugby is rotten and that it is also not helped by certain IRFU directives.
Everything from the committees, to the CEO, to the coaching ticket and yes at least some of the players too.
The way the province is run is at best amateur hour and more likely a complete Poopie show that would never be tolerated in most sport organisations.
The schools are way above what they should be, the scouting for players is minimal outside of a few schools let alone west of the Bann, the academy is not functioning properly, there is no plan to bridge the gap between players being ready for first team duties and the academy set up, the recruitment of the very limited NIQ slots we have is wrong and thats before we even get to coachning.
It's times like this you almost wish Ulster could be bought over by a private shareholder, at least then they might come in and clean house, as it stands it seems like those at the top have very little to gain from making any changes and don't seem to want to.
It should be pointed out that I am 29 years old, I have been an Ulster fan since I could walk and as someone who is young enough to go on and support Ulster for a long time to come I can only see Ulster going one way if things are left as they currently are and that way is not up.  It's too deep engrained in me to stop supporting Ulster but I see alot of my friends and other young people drifting away, heck a lot of people who I know and who I see going to Ulster matches these days are one off, just there because young can drink and have some craic and have no interest in the rugby at all.  Those fans will not last and the true fans are being turned away, they aren't passing that love of Ulster Rugby on to their kids and that will only hurt Ulster in the future.
Honestly if you gave me Ulster rugby right now I'd clean it all out, it really needs it, all the committees would go , the CEO, the coaches (minus peel, Dundon and Gibbes), Brynn, the whole lot.  Ulster rugby lurches from one situation to the next with no coherrant plan for either medium or long term (the paddy jackson situation is proof of that) and I like a lot of other people are sick of it.

neilthom7 wrote:Honestly for what it's worth my opinion is that the whole setup of Ulster Rugby is rotten and that it is also not helped by certain IRFU directives.
Everything from the committees, to the CEO, to the coaching ticket and yes at least some of the players too.
The way the province is run is at best amateur hour and more likely a complete Poopie show that would never be tolerated in most sport organisations.
The schools are way above what they should be, the scouting for players is minimal outside of a few schools let alone west of the Bann, the academy is not functioning properly, there is no plan to bridge the gap between players being ready for first team duties and the academy set up, the recruitment of the very limited NIQ slots we have is wrong and thats before we even get to coachning.
It's times like this you almost wish Ulster could be bought over by a private shareholder, at least then they might come in and clean house, as it stands it seems like those at the top have very little to gain from making any changes and don't seem to want to.
It should be pointed out that I am 29 years old, I have been an Ulster fan since I could walk and as someone who is young enough to go on and support Ulster for a long time to come I can only see Ulster going one way if things are left as they currently are and that way is not up.  It's too deep engrained in me to stop supporting Ulster but I see alot of my friends and other young people drifting away, heck a lot of people who I know and who I see going to Ulster matches these days are one off, just there because young can drink and have some craic and have no interest in the rugby at all.  Those fans will not last and the true fans are being turned away, they aren't passing that love of Ulster Rugby on to their kids and that will only hurt Ulster in the future.
Honestly if you gave me Ulster rugby right now I'd clean it all out, it really needs it, all the committees would go , the CEO, the coaches (minus peel, Dundon and Gibbes), Brynn, the whole lot.  Ulster rugby lurches from one situation to the next with no coherrant plan for either medium or long term (the paddy jackson situation is proof of that) and I like a lot of other people are sick of it.

Good post. Certainly captures a lot of the discouragement from fans that seems to be on the rise. Many longterm fans giving up their season tickets etc. I think Geoff has said on here previously that he is not renewing his, which he has held for a long time.

+1 excellent post Neil

Hard to argue with any of it

Rory been a season ticket holder since 1999 - missed 6 games in total
On a cold Friday night and close to 64 and with no sign of improvement (just the opposite)
I think I'd rather watch at home in comfort.

Declining numbers, plus contacts, means I'll have no problem getting tickets to the big games (HC + Inter pros)
Likes of Dragons, Treviso, Cardiff, Kings at home - nah I cant be bothered any more

+1 Also Neil, excellent post

"Honestly for what it's worth my opinion is" worth more than most it seems

neilthom7 wrote:Honestly for what it's worth my opinion is that the whole setup of Ulster Rugby is rotten and that it is also not helped by certain IRFU directives.
Everything from the committees, to the CEO, to the coaching ticket and yes at least some of the players too.
The way the province is run is at best amateur hour and more likely a complete Poopie show that would never be tolerated in most sport organisations.
The schools are way above what they should be, the scouting for players is minimal outside of a few schools let alone west of the Bann, the academy is not functioning properly, there is no plan to bridge the gap between players being ready for first team duties and the academy set up, the recruitment of the very limited NIQ slots we have is wrong and thats before we even get to coachning.
It's times like this you almost wish Ulster could be bought over by a private shareholder, at least then they might come in and clean house, as it stands it seems like those at the top have very little to gain from making any changes and don't seem to want to.
It should be pointed out that I am 29 years old, I have been an Ulster fan since I could walk and as someone who is young enough to go on and support Ulster for a long time to come I can only see Ulster going one way if things are left as they currently are and that way is not up.  It's too deep engrained in me to stop supporting Ulster but I see alot of my friends and other young people drifting away, heck a lot of people who I know and who I see going to Ulster matches these days are one off, just there because young can drink and have some craic and have no interest in the rugby at all.  Those fans will not last and the true fans are being turned away, they aren't passing that love of Ulster Rugby on to their kids and that will only hurt Ulster in the future.
Honestly if you gave me Ulster rugby right now I'd clean it all out, it really needs it, all the committees would go , the CEO, the coaches (minus peel, Dundon and Gibbes), Brynn, the whole lot.  Ulster rugby lurches from one situation to the next with no coherrant plan for either medium or long term (the paddy jackson situation is proof of that) and I like a lot of other people are sick of it.

While I don't disagree with a lot of that, I'd like to know what or who specifically you'd like to replace these people with?
Do you really want to burn down the house, without somewhere to sleep tonight?

As Ferris said the problems are bigger than any individual.

The structure is broken.
With no will either in Dublin or Belfast to address that, decline is on the cards regardless of individuals.
Now replacing a number of individuals would improve matters, at Ulster, it wont resolve the fundamental problems.

Ireland devised an excellent structure that served them well for 20 years but in the last year or two it has become increasingly apparent it is no longer fit for purpose. Ulster have made that worse than the other provinces by poor management and a schools set up that is counter productive.

It is my sincere belief, I hope I am wrong, that post 2019 WC a number of top Irish players will leave, as the salary gap widens.
When we could keep players on, say £100,000 less than elsewhere it held.
As that widens to £200,000+, and it will, the dam will burst.
In addition the treatment of the Provinces as subservient to the national set up is going to pose increasing strain on the Provinces as fans of Munster and Ulster see their teams become second rate (as I said Edinburgh, Cardiff standard)

I see no alternative to allowing the Provinces more freedom to recruit who they want and selection of the national team to include those abroad.
That will be sad but it is the reality we are in.

It's worth noting the reason for why the model is the way it is. Historically almost all the revenue required to sustain the IRFU, as well as the WRU and the SRU, has come from international games. Especially the 6 Nations which effectively funds these unions for the rest of the year.

Where we're lacking vision is this model is breaking down and will flip eventually (if it hasn't already) to seeing the provinces needing to become the primary revenue generators from tickets, TV and merchandising.

The money from the ERC and leagues will only become more and more important. And given most the cash is on a performance basis either through where teams finish in the competition or more big money games like quarterfinals, semis and finals - if Irish teams fall behind in this area then their ability to push on will be hampered because they don't have the cash to compete.

I'm probably less pessimistic than Geoff and some of the rest of you as I think at least 3 of the Irish provinces will still maintain a solid fan base, but I fully agree that if we fall behind in terms of performance then it becomes a vicious cycle because our ability to compete is hampered, which hurts revenues, which in turns hampers our ability to compete. Etc, etc.

Don't get me wrong I still reckon we can hold on to a 10,000+ average gate, when performances decline,
but to get the crowds we got last year things have to change.
Munster crowds are funny - turn up in their droves for the big games but look through the last few years - a fair few crowds south of 7000, and that is when they are one of the best.
Leinster for all sorts of reasons will not suffer in the same way

Last year we lost about 1000 Season Ticket holders - everything I am seeing indicates there will be more this year

Additionally the provinces won't be able to compete on any level whilst being handicapped by the IRFU's policies. Yes the provinces are feeders for the international cashcow but strangle the life out of the feeders and the international setup will suffer badly. The NIQ quotas have become draconian and really aren't fit for purpose in that one size does not fit all. There was a nice balance for a few years, it worked well for all parties. Can it ever return to that?

Aren't the NIQ essentially plus one project player?

So with the new qualification rules everyone will at some point over the next few years, the provinces will lose another NIQ slot because it will be harder to get project players unless they bring in players at a young age from abroad or older players who will qualify in their late 20's or early 30's with little opportunity for a glittering test career

Essentially withy residency moving form 3 to 5 years we will have gone from 5 to 3 foreigners.
It should be going the other way - say 10 with a maximum of 7 in the team at any one time.
Leinster apart the other provinces cannot compete with only 3 NIQ

geoff999rugby wrote:
I see no alternative to allowing the Provinces more freedom to recruit who they want and selection of the national team to include those abroad.
That will be sad but it is the reality we are in.

This will probably happen quite soon but unfortunately we would end only up like Wales.

The provinces would be far worse off financially as the IRFU would reduce funding if more the Irish team were abroad.

We would then end up with journeyman foreign players, as we wouldn't be competitive in terms of Salaries and the provinces just being a feeder to English and French clubs.

The alternative is keep the current model and cut to 2 or 3 provinces and split the IRFU funding 2 or 3 ways instead of 4.

I think Leinster could survive regardless under either model but the future for us is very bleak. This SA experiment is a last desperate throw of the dice for the pro14 teams.

You will never see a move to 2 Provinces and if was to 3 it means one thing only, cutting Connacht loose.
Any attempt to chop a Province will lead to that Province going it alone with private funding.

I don't think things have to be as bad as Wales - to be honest the WRU couldn't organise a piss up in a brewery.
We may have problems but not in their league when it comes to incompetence

geoff999rugby wrote:Essentially withy residency moving form 3 to  5 years we will have gone from 5 to 3 foreigners.
It should be going the other way - say 10 with a maximum of 7 in the team at any one time.
Leinster apart the other provinces cannot compete with only 3 NIQ

Or maybe a grading system is needed for NIQ between starters, bench players and squad fillers. You are allowed so many of each but bench players and squad players are limited to the number of games or minutes they can play. It allows provinces to use NIQ to grow their squad but still puts an emphasis on developing and using IQ players

geoff999rugby wrote:You will never see a move to 2 Provinces and if was to 3 it means one thing only, cutting Connacht loose.
Any attempt to chop a Province will lead to that Province going it alone with private funding.

Sorry Geoff I just cannot see Ulster or Munster surviving of private funding. The population size is just too small.

Ulster only have an 18k stadium and relatively small TV revenue, there's no way it wouldn't run a massive loss on its own and if the IRFU aren't picking up the tab how long do you think a private backer would?

rodders if Im not mistaken Ulster weren't getting all that much from the IRFU for the professional setup in terms of overall budget. I tried to check the annual report to confirm as that's where I had seen it before(I think) but it seems the accounts are no longer available in the annual report for some strange reason

marty2086 wrote:rodders if Im not mistaken Ulster weren't getting all that much from the IRFU for the professional setup in terms of overall budget. I tried to check the annual report to confirm as that's where I had seen it before(I think) but it seems the accounts are no longer available in the annual report for some strange reason

Ulster says no ?  

rodders wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:You will never see a move to 2 Provinces and if was to 3 it means one thing only, cutting Connacht loose.
Any attempt to chop a Province will lead to that Province going it alone with private funding.

Sorry Geoff I just cannot see Ulster or Munster surviving of private funding. The population size is just too small.

Ulster only have an 18k stadium and relatively small TV revenue, there's no way it wouldn't run a massive loss on its own and if the IRFU aren't picking up the tab how long do you think a private backer would?

One of two things would happen
1 - no private backer and we become a Dragons type team
2 - a private backer who is prepared to make significant loses - just like nearly all English teams

Regardless of that it would not make sense for the IRFU to let Munster or Ulster to go to the wall
The whole policy of keeping players in Ireland would be holed below the water line

In the end they need to change the policy to keep the provinces competitive
Being who they are the most likely scenario is a few years of being in the doldrums before they realise it ain't working and they need to be more flexible
Not the quickest on the uptake.

Expect a change in the summer of 2021 or there abouts
Munster and Ulster failing to qualify for the HC and 5/6 of the best players going abroad will bring it home

Shutting the gate after the horse has bolted will be by definition way too late.

The IRFU are presiding over a decline that they have precipitated and continue to support. If they had stopped cutting the NIQ numbers at a maximum of five when the Irish provinces were desirable places to go there was still a chance that players would see Ireland as a worthy destination. Now Nucifora has blindly tried to implement the draconian Laws that Pat Whelan was lauded for bringing in - the irony is that it might just be too late for both Ulster and Munster. All of which was predicted on this forum five years ago and like the Great Auk it isn't coming back.

The Great Aukster wrote:

neilthom7 wrote:Honestly for what it's worth my opinion is that the whole setup of Ulster Rugby is rotten and that it is also not helped by certain IRFU directives.
Everything from the committees, to the CEO, to the coaching ticket and yes at least some of the players too.
The way the province is run is at best amateur hour and more likely a complete Poopie show that would never be tolerated in most sport organisations.
The schools are way above what they should be, the scouting for players is minimal outside of a few schools let alone west of the Bann, the academy is not functioning properly, there is no plan to bridge the gap between players being ready for first team duties and the academy set up, the recruitment of the very limited NIQ slots we have is wrong and thats before we even get to coachning.
It's times like this you almost wish Ulster could be bought over by a private shareholder, at least then they might come in and clean house, as it stands it seems like those at the top have very little to gain from making any changes and don't seem to want to.
It should be pointed out that I am 29 years old, I have been an Ulster fan since I could walk and as someone who is young enough to go on and support Ulster for a long time to come I can only see Ulster going one way if things are left as they currently are and that way is not up.  It's too deep engrained in me to stop supporting Ulster but I see alot of my friends and other young people drifting away, heck a lot of people who I know and who I see going to Ulster matches these days are one off, just there because young can drink and have some craic and have no interest in the rugby at all.  Those fans will not last and the true fans are being turned away, they aren't passing that love of Ulster Rugby on to their kids and that will only hurt Ulster in the future.
Honestly if you gave me Ulster rugby right now I'd clean it all out, it really needs it, all the committees would go , the CEO, the coaches (minus peel, Dundon and Gibbes), Brynn, the whole lot.  Ulster rugby lurches from one situation to the next with no coherrant plan for either medium or long term (the paddy jackson situation is proof of that) and I like a lot of other people are sick of it.

While I don't disagree with a lot of that, I'd like to know what or who specifically you'd like to replace these people with?
Do you really want to burn down the house, without somewhere to sleep tonight?

I feel as though you misunderstand me Aukster. I do not mean sack them all straight away without a replacement, i mean find you replacement as a matter of urgency. Although I feel there is very little need for the various committees, I would highly doubt the likes of Manchester United is run by committee, instead you would have one CEO who is responsible to a specially appointed board or the owners directly.

In regards to the comments on the turning of the tide, I feel this is a very valid issue that the IRFU is missing. There is much more margin for growth in tv revenues of the club game than Internationally.
While most people love the 6 nations it is on the protected list meaning it has to be shown free to air, therefore only really a few channels can bid for it and not the pay tv subscribers, this keeps the overall tv revenue down.
Club rugby is open and can go to various different channels or broadcasters, allowing maximum competition and making it more valuable.
As there is now more competition than ever among tv providers with BT as well as the terrestrial tv channels and Sky all channels are now looking for more sports content and this increases bidding wars. Not to mention online service such as amazon or netflix, I would take these services seriously as bidders in sport, I have worked for Sky and can assure you they are taking those threats extremely seriously.
I actually think a rugby competition moving to the summer could really push up tv revenues.
Think of it this way, most rugby competitions are played between September and May, during that time there are lots of other options for tv companies to bid for and put on (premier leagues, european football leagues, champions league, nba, nfl etc etc)
During the summer these companies are desperate for live sport to put on, cricket is one that benefits from this even though it is a long game. Rugby could benefit, if you made the Pro 14 a summer competition you would have much less competitions in terms of sports played, this means you are instantly more lucrative to the likes of Sky, BT etc who are trying to put live sport on to keep their customers over the summer, this creates a bidding war and means they are more likely to go to higher prices, increasing your revenue.
It feels that in a more competitive sports marketplace that thinking outside the box a little will be needed but that the IRFU just don't have the ability.

Back to the Ireland team. Stockdale's share price has risen considerably. Great for him to get that opportunity. His face obviously fits within the Ireland setup and that's half the battle for selection - cough* Zebo cough*

Awfully weak backline after Sexton though in terms of experience, positional or otherwise. You're looking at a handful of caps and a 13 who was remade into a 12 who has been moved back to 13 .... oh and Rob Kearney.

Can't believe Rory being backed up by Herring is what Ireland are fielding. Let's hope they don't throw their darts like they have in last few games with Ulster.

There's one huge difference they have when they play for Ireland, they can just chuck it to Toner every time

Ireland do not have an adequate replacement for Best

Scannell looks the best of a poor bunch

neilthom7 wrote:I feel as though you misunderstand me Aukster.  I do not mean sack them all straight away without a replacement, i mean find you replacement as a matter of urgency.  Although I feel there is very little need for the various committees, I would highly doubt the likes of Manchester United is run by committee, instead you would have one CEO who is responsible to a specially appointed board or the owners directly.

The current structure is in a state of constant flux, so if you aren't getting rid of all of them then what is the replacement timescale?
Reid was replaced by Logan
On the coaching side there has been Davidson, McLaughlin, Anscombe, Bell, Doak, Clarke and now Gibbes and Peel
DoR - Kiss for Humphreys
DO - Cunningham for Humphreys
Academy - Campbell for Longwell

It's hard to argue that there hasn't been a constant change on the side that is failing to deliver, so who makes that change - the committees that have consistently failed over the past seven years? Ulster now have the luxury of a DoR, an OD and a head coach - that's three where most sides only have two. The trouble is that the committees made up of the great and the good in the Ulster Branch are amateurs, the governance is wrong at the outset, therefore there can be no confidence that the urgent replacements are any better than the incumbents and indeed likely to be a whole lot worse.

The problem is bigger than individuals, bigger than amateur committee members,

Change is going to only going to come with great difficulty

Three suggestions:
1. Ditch Kiss put Gibbes in charge
2. Tell schools either they co-operate with clubs in allowing youngest to train with the clubs otherwise the Schools cup will no longer be played at Ravenhill
3. Grow a pair with respect to talking to the IRFU. Only Cunningham was prepared to stand up to them over Pienaer - both Kiss and Logan rolled over and let Nucifora tickle their tummies.

Will that solve the problem ? - of course not, but it would the first baby steps on a very long and painful road

geoff999rugby wrote:The problem is bigger than individuals, bigger than amateur committee members,

Change is going to only going to come with great difficulty

Three suggestions:
1. Ditch Kiss put Gibbes in charge
2. Tell schools either they co-operate with clubs in allowing youngest to train with the clubs otherwise the Schools cup will no longer be played at Ravenhill
3. Grow a pair with respect to talking to the IRFU. Only Cunningham was prepared to stand up to them over Pienaer - both Kiss and Logan rolled over and let Nucifora tickle their tummies.

Will that solve the problem ? - of course not, but it would the first baby steps on a very long and painful road

I really can't express how big a mistake this was. I warned a while back when Gibbes first signed that there's every chance he will have to be content with playing second fiddle. Kiss was never going to throw away his position like that, and if he really is the architect of the madness on the field, then having or not having Gibbes makes little difference.

geoff999rugby wrote:
3. Grow a pair with respect to talking to the IRFU. Only Cunningham was prepared to stand up to them over Pienaer - both Kiss and Logan rolled over and let Nucifora tickle their tummies.

Maybe Logan and Kiss knew better than to fight a battle they weren't going to win? Do you honestly think there was ever a hope the IRFU were ever going to back down?