Ulster Rugby 2017-18

First topic message reminder :

Rory Best (hamstring)
Marcell Coetzee (knee)
Craig Gilroy (back)
Chris Henry (larynx)
Rob Lyttle (shoulder)
Al O'Connor (concussion)
Jared Payne (headaches)
Dave Shanahan (hamstring)
Nick Timoney (ankle)
Schalk van der Merwe (shoulder)

Don Alfonso wrote:Sorry, that's unnecessarily snarky. But this kind of post is EXACTLY why I put the NB in my first post. Because I knew what was coming. Let's agree to disagree.

The NB didn't apply to me, sorry, as I am interested in Ulster moving in the right direction. The new academy looks good and I hope it delivers. But I'm not stupid enough to abandon all scepticism and just accept the claim that we have the best academy in Ireland. Saying it is one thing, let's see what happens with the next batch.

It would be easier to discuss it if you dropped the pompous attitude and stopped mocking those who have pointed to the same problems the Ulster management are only now, it would seem, addressing.

clivemcl wrote:I guess I don’t believe anyone needs to be offered more than one cup of tea at a time anyway!

I prefer a big mug.

I keep hearing this about Southern boys not wanting, willing or wanting ...or willing... to go up North to ply their trade at Rugby - either as young players or as more established players.

Now such indeed may be or may have been the case.  No argument on it.  But the inference is always that they are the ones that have misplaced assumptions about up North, that their biases, established probably in the womb, are informing their attitudes about what might lie in wait for them up there.

Now we've had our difficulties and our.................. well, troubles is a good word for it, I suppose.  We've all had our troubles and some of us have had more of them than others... but at different times in our collective history.  The most recent troubles have obviously affected the North more than the rest of us.  They paid the highest price - all of them.  I appreciate that and I appreciate the sense that times like that don't lie down so easily and need a lot of coaxing.

But I'll just give three little true stories about North and South as regards attitudes about visiting.

One:  My sister on a School trip (good many years ago - during the Troubles) - on a School Trip to the ...oh God, I've genuinely forgotten the title... the Astronomy place. (just googled it!)  The Planetarium.  Anyway, as school kids are when they are off on a trip, they were probably loud and boisterous and happy.  But one of the staff at the complex made a point of highlighting where they came from and that their youthfulness wasn't appreciated.  He said "Ah, yous are from South aren't you.  Well, we don't act like that up here."  She said it when she came home and always remembered it.  She was too young at the time to be interested in any crap that was going on in the news...but she felt the sting of being told she was different and probably not too welcome at the time.

Two:  I worked on building sites years back.  In Dublin mostly.  The journeys up were hell...hell because of the times I had to get up at to drive to the home of the foreman and then go from there in a van to wherever we'd end up.  Sometimes it was right in the heart of Dublin, sometimes it would be well out and down towards Wicklow.  And the roads at 5.00am were absolutely littered with similar vans chasing up to work in Dublin too...and a hefty number of them with the yellow rear numberplate of Northern Irish workers, companies and individuals.  The accents of the people I'd end working beside would be liberally sprayed with the Northern one too.  And people worked and got on with their day.
So fast forward some years later....  I know personally of builders that were asked to do work across the border but before they could get settled into their routine were told in no uncertain terms that they weren't needed up there and should go home.  And they went home because it wasn't a request it was a directive.

Three:  I visited Derry a few years back with a few family members.  Had never been before.  The driver (a brother-in-law) drove around the bogside, drove into the graveyard.  We walked around...looked at all the graves.... all them not just one localised area.  The unnatural deaths and unnatural ages for people being dead.  A sombre place and a nervy place for me after having heard so much about the places in and around that city as a young man growing up.  Anyway, we then went up to the Walls and a lot of the other stuff, the Peace bridge etc.... and then into the Tourist office.  And we were all quietly looking around and speaking quietly to each other and one of the staff came right up to me with a big smile on her face...much wider than it needed to be and she asked: "You're from the South, aren't you?"  I said yeah, just up for the day to look around.  And she said "You're very welcome"... and meant every word of it and ....it seemed so misplaced a moment because I'm sure she had many visitors from the South by then.  But something in her made her want to personally say something to me that was warm and inviting.  And I've never forgotten that woman.  She comes into my head whenever I hear these little discussions about players from down South being wary of going North.

We have a bit to go yet I suppose, and I concur with Don and others here on the idea that Southern players probably still have some of that collective memory going on.  But we're on our way..all of us.

This is not me having a go at anyone in here, btw.  I don't want it to sidetrack your topic either.  I'm just probably virtually just thinking out loud about the thing.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:You think they came up with the plan five minutes ago? That's why the Academy is already looking very different? Is Doctor Who on the staff? There was a meet n' greet - that's why you're hearing about it now. It's already been underway for a while and you can see it in the make-up of the Academy. I daresay if I hadn't posted this, you'd be none the wiser, because you never look beyond the narrative of keening, kneejerk hysteria. Which you can go back to.

Oh, you mean the information that you copied and pasted from the Ulster fan forum that I often frequent? Good job.

Anyway, it's been a recent change, Don, as you well know.

That's KIND of my whole point? This has been common knowledge for a while.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:Sorry, that's unnecessarily snarky. But this kind of post is EXACTLY why I put the NB in my first post. Because I knew what was coming. Let's agree to disagree.

The NB didn't apply to me, sorry, as I am interested in Ulster moving in the right direction. The new academy looks good and I hope it delivers. But I'm not stupid enough to abandon all scepticism and just accept the claim that we have the best academy in Ireland. Saying it is one thing, let's see what happens with the next batch.

It would be easier to discuss it if you dropped the pompous attitude and stopped mocking those who have pointed to the same problems the Ulster management are only now, it would seem, addressing.

I also have a healthy dose of scepticism. You're not alone in that/ We obviously don't have the best Academy in Ireland.

I apologise if I come across as pompous. I'm really not. What I am, though, is someone that does a bit of digging around to understand what they're talking about.

If I hadn't posted the list of the Academy players, and the feedback form that "Meet the Players" talk (which I couldn't go to - let me be up-front about that), would you have been writing "the new Academy looks good"? Honestly? Or would you have been unaware of how it was shifting - a change that you can see with five minutes of Googling, and one that I got shouted down for flagging up a few weeks ago, talking about Hall, Dunleavy etc? And the success in Letterkenny. And Virginia RFC. The posts are all there, from several weeks ago.

So it's immensely frustrating to see people endlessly repeating the same old nonsense about how nothing has changed. Let's be clear - I'm not a big club man. I have a club - I think about three folk there know my name. But you don't need to be Sherlock Holmes to uncover the things that are going on, that have been going on for a year or so, about how Ulster are trying to change their set-up and approach, which I think we can all agree have been poor. If you read any of the general emails they've been sending out for w while now, it's all right there in black and white.  Dunleavy - Club player of the Year.  Here ar eteh Rugby Camps we're holding in Donegal. Massive congratulations to Virginia RFC etc etc

But people would rather just say the same stuff again and again. It's massively tedious, and it feels to me like a load of received wisdom is just being endlessly regurgitated. I've been trying to discuss it for a while now, but it hasn't happened. Not until I post sic posts of widely-available information about the actual reality of Ulster's Academy and start being rude. Which I do apologise for, but bloody hell...

We're all on the same side.

SecretFly wrote:I keep hearing this about Southern boys not wanting, willing or wanting ...or willing... to go up North to ply their trade at Rugby - either as young players or as more established players.

Now such indeed may be or may have been the case.  No argument on it.  But the inference is always that they are the ones that have misplaced assumptions about up North, that their biases, established probably in the womb, are informing their attitudes about what might lie in wait for them up there.

Now we've had our difficulties and our.................. well, troubles is a good word for it, I suppose.  We've all had our troubles and some of us have had more of them than others... but at different times in our collective history.  The most recent troubles have obviously affected the North more than the rest of us.  They paid the highest price - all of them.  I appreciate that and I appreciate the sense that times like that don't lie down so easily and need a lot of coaxing.

But I'll just give three little true stories about North and South as regards attitudes about visiting.

One:  My sister on a School trip (good many years ago - during the Troubles) - on a School Trip to the ...oh God, I've genuinely forgotten the title... the Astronomy place. (just googled it!)  The Planetarium.  Anyway, as school kids are when they are off on a trip, they were probably loud and boisterous and happy.  But one of the staff at the complex made a point of highlighting where they came from and that their youthfulness wasn't appreciated.  He said "Ah, yous are from South aren't you.  Well, we don't act like that up here."  She said it when she came home and always remembered it.  She was too young at the time to be interested in any crap that was going on in the news...but she felt the sting of being told she was different and probably not too welcome at the time.

Two:  I worked on building sites years back.  In Dublin mostly.  The journeys up were hell...hell because of the times I had to get up at to drive to the home of the foreman and then go from there in a van to wherever we'd end up.  Sometimes it was right in the heart of Dublin, sometimes it would be well out and down towards Wicklow.  And the roads at 5.00am were absolutely littered with similar vans chasing up to work in Dublin too...and a hefty number of them with the yellow rear numberplate of Northern Irish workers, companies and individuals.  The accents of the people I'd end working beside would be liberally sprayed with the Northern one too.  And people worked and got on with their day.
So fast forward some years later....  I know personally of builders that were asked to do work across the border but before they could get settled into their routine were told in no uncertain terms that they weren't needed up there and should go home.  And they went home because it wasn't a request it was a directive.

Three:  I visited Derry a few years back with a few family members.  Had never been before.  The driver (a brother-in-law) drove around the bogside, drove into the graveyard.  We walked around...looked at all the graves.... all them not just one localised area.  The unnatural deaths and unnatural ages for people being dead.  A sombre place and a nervy place for me after having heard so much about the places in and around that city as a young man growing up.  Anyway, we then went up to the Walls and a lot of the other stuff, the Peace bridge etc.... and then into the Tourist office.  And we were all quietly looking around and speaking quietly to each other and one of the staff came right up to me with a big smile on her face...much wider than it needed to be and she asked: "You're from the South, aren't you?"  I said yeah, just up for the day to look around.  And she said "You're very welcome"... and meant every word of it and ....it seemed so misplaced a moment because I'm sure she had many visitors from the South by then.  But something in her made her want to personally say something to me that was warm and inviting.  And I've never forgotten that woman.  She comes into my head whenever I hear these little discussions about players from down South being wary of going North.

We have a bit to go yet I suppose, and I concur with Don and others here on the idea that Southern players probably still have some of that collective memory going on.  But we're on our way..all of us.

This is not me having a go at anyone in here, btw.  I don't want it to sidetrack your topic either.  I'm just probably virtually just thinking out loud about the thing.

Cheers Secret. Hopefully it just keeps progressing. The reticence is not all about the Troubles, of course. A lot of Leinster players would be moving from a sprawling capital to a much smaller city, and one with a very problematic history.  Not many young, middle-class bucks would want to move out of Glasgow or Edinburgh to Dundee. Or from London to Newcastle/ And we are being disingenuous if we don't acknowledge that Belfast is a different kind of place to Dublin.

I think once that process starts to take off, though, it breeds its own success. And if that process can start "internally" (i.e. within NI) then so much the better. Two hard-hitting, fan favourites lining out in the back row, one from the Falls Road  and one form Crossmaglen, would be worth several thousand Ulster Rugby-organised school trips to the museum in Ravenhill, in terms of getting Nationalists on board. If Ferris had come from Andytown or the Bogside... we'd be the best Province in Ireland.  Maybe not, but if we can just tempt Nationalists in, I'm confident it can be their team as well. Already massive strides made in that area, but still a long way to go.

Paul Marshall going to join 200 club this weekend apparently. Please not 9) Marshall 10) Cooney

On the South/North note I believe Leinster's conundrum could solve ours.
'He's come up through the Leinster system, you're now telling him he has to leave?' http://the42.ie/3711116

That'd be some baptism of fire for young Joseph. He'd soon learn the ropes behind our pack.

Don Alfonso wrote:And the Under 19s:

BIG FOUR:
Niall Armstrong (Royal Belfast Academical Institution)
David Lyttle (Royal Belfast Academical Institution)
Neil Saulters (Royal Belfast Academical Institution)
Matthew Crowther (Campbell College, Belfast)
Oisin Kiernan (Campbell College)
Jamie McCartney (Campbell College, Belfast)
6

OTHER GRAMMAR SCHOOLS:
Azur Allison (Ballymena Academy)
Bruce Houston (Ballymena Academy)
Oisin Jordan (Ballymena Academy)
Angus Kernohan (Ballymena Academy)
Stewart Moore (Ballymena Academy)
Ben Savage (Ballymena Academy)
Mark Thompson (Ballymena Academy)
Stephen Moore (Sullivan Upper School)
Andrew McConnell (Sullivan Upper School)
Andrew Weir (Sullivan Upper School)
Max Bailie (Coleraine Grammar School)
Zac Kerr (Bangor Grammar School)
JJ McKee (Antrim Grammar School)
13

SECONDARY SCHOOLS:
Jonny Hunter (Wallace High School)
Jamie Manderson (Wallace High School)
Jack Lewis (Ballyclare High School)
Josh Young (Ballyclare High School)
Ben Heath (Dromore High School)
Claytan Milligan (Down High School)
Calum Smyth (Sperrin Integrated College)
7

CLUBS:
Michael O'Neill (Rainey OB RFC)
Paul McGookin (Ballyclare RFC)
Jack McIntosh (Rainey OB RFC)
Evin Crummie (City of Armagh RFC)
Callum Harkin (Malone RFC)
5

OTHER:
Jack Walters (Irish Exiles)


Still work to be done at this level, clearly (as indeed there is at each level, in fairness). We rely much too heavily on the grammar schools. Especially Ballymena Academy!

Worthy of note, however, is that there are more players from secondary schools than the Belfast Big Four. And only one less from the clubs system (although it is still clearly far too few). There are a number of reasons for this - the S&C at grammar schools, them being able to afford the best coaches and so on. Needs to change and progress.

But it's not the picture that has been painted on this forum. The reality is, as always, much more complicated and nuanced. And genuinely seems to bear out that the change is happening.

I'm done for the night. Sweet dreams.

Ballyclare HS, Wallace HS and Down HS are all grammar schools I think and I would think they are more academically selective than Campbell.

High Schools are grammar schools? Really?

Fup me, you're right. How can a High School be a Grammar School? Feels a lot less broad now. Although it isn't the big Belfast grammar schools, I suppose.

It's just a name.

Grosvenor High School was always a grammar school before they changed the name several years back to Grosvenor Grammar.

Back in the day the non-selective schools were called Secondary Schools and High School was just to indicate it wasn't a primary school.

Interestingly, 2 of the "Big 4" Belfast Schools named would have much easier academic entry standards than any of those High Schools listed. Wallace would have close to the toughest entry of all.

Inst and Campbell, I'm guessing? We all know the joke about Campbell boys being the cream of Belfast...

I don't really care how well these boys are doing academically, though - it's about using the school as an indicator of social background. Grosvenor would be a lot less middle-class than Campbell. A lot.

In other news:
http://www.newsletter.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-exclusive-martin-moore-set-to-make-move-to-ulster-1-8258621

Don Alfonso wrote:In other news:
http://www.newsletter.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-exclusive-martin-moore-set-to-make-move-to-ulster-1-8258621

He would be very welcome

Excellent signing if indeed true.

Confirmed, I think? Gibbes to shape him up and get him back where he was, hopefully.

Confirmed by Wasps

Marty Moore to join Ulster Rugby next season


Wasps can confirm that Marty Moore will join Ulster Rugby next season.

Moore arrived at Wasps in the summer of 2016, after earning 58 caps for his province Leinster, and will return to the Pro 14 after two seasons in the Aviva Premiership. Moore has made 34 appearances in black and gold to date.

The 26-year-old tighthead prop has won 10 caps for Ireland since making his debut against Scotland in the 2014 RBS 6 Nations Championship and was part of Ireland’s 2014 and 2015 Six Nations title-winning squads.

A return to the Pro 14 will enable Moore to put himself in a better position to further his international ambitions with Ireland.

Speaking of the move, Wasps’ Director of Rugby Dai Young said: “We understand Marty’s desire to increase his chances of an Ireland re-call, being back over in the Pro 14 and we will wish him the very best when he leaves to join Ulster Rugby.

“Unfortunately, a few injuries have meant that Marty hasn’t quite been able to produce the run of performances we know he’s capable of, but hopefully if he stays fit there will be plenty more to come from him over the next few seasons. I have no doubt that he will give everything he can to Wasps for the remainder of the season.”

On the news, Marty Moore added, “I’ve thoroughly enjoyed my experience at Wasps so far and I’ve learned a lot from playing in the Premiership against some quality front row combinations. I feel that experience has benefited my game massively and I’m looking forward to playing as big a part as I can for Wasps for the rest of the season.

“Next season, I will look forward to the challenge of playing for Ulster and having the opportunity to work with a few familiar faces. Until then my focus will be on what we can achieve at Wasps this season.”

Don Alfonso wrote:Confirmed, I think? Gibbes to shape him up and get him back where he was, hopefully.

When he's got a decent run of games he plays well and is a force at the scrum

To be fair to him, I did hear Danny Cipriani have a pop at Wasps preseason fitness regime a few months ago and blamed it for some of their injuries

Danni wasn't impressed that there wasn't enough drink and partying time slotted in to the exercise routines throughout the week.

SecretFly wrote:Danni wasn't impressed that there wasn't enough drink and partying time slotted in to the exercise routines throughout the week.

Actually the implication seemed to be that the whole squad was on a one size fits all program

Well that's a tight head sorted. If we can announce a couple of back row and a ten for next year we will be grand

The big question is, does anyone go or does everyone stay?

If everyone stays next season, tighthead looks like

Moore
Herbst
Kane
Ah You
Warwick
Simpson


That's not half bad for depth

Though fly half looks like

neilthom7 wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:In other news:
http://www.newsletter.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-exclusive-martin-moore-set-to-make-move-to-ulster-1-8258621

He would be very welcome

The IRFU have confirmed the signing.

http://www.irishrugby.ie/news/40931.php#.WhazBuSDNYc

Jake Heenan is leaving Connacht with no word on his destination, a good player with a bad run of injuries. Ulster bound?

marty2086 wrote:Jake Heenan is leaving Connacht with no word on his destination, a good player with a bad run of injuries. Ulster bound?

He certainly fits the Ulster bound profile. Good player carrying a recurring injury that would allow him to play 2 games over a 2 year contract.

(1-8): Callum Black, John Andrew, Ross Kane, Kieran Treadwell, Alan O'Connor, Clive Ross, Aaron Hall, Nick Timoney;
(9-15): John Cooney, Peter Nelson, Craig Gilroy, Christian Lealiifano, Louis Ludik, Tommy Bowe, Charles Piutau.

Replacements (16-23): Rob Herring, Schalk van der Merwe, Andy Warwick, Matthew Dalton, Greg Jones, Paul Marshall, Darren Cave, Andrew Trimble.

A team loaded with young players but we don't give young players a chance

First caps for Aaron Hall, Matthew Dalton and Greg Jones.

Possibly in a loss to Treviso at home, but let's not dwell on that...

Is this Gibbes' influence?

Herring shouldn't be home - though he was very good against Fiji.

Honestly, if this season is a write-off, but we have blooded a load of talented youngsters and develop some real strength id depth, I will happily take that, and "world domination" can start next year.

More importantly, Nelson at ten, Thank flip for that.

This could well be the beginning of Nelson's bedding in at 10 in preparation for Leali'ifano's imminent departure. One bad knock to him and we're back to screwed again.

I think this season is already bordering on a write off so giving the young lads some much needed exposure could prove invaluable. I cannot find it in me to feel excited any more which will probably save me from the weekly disappointment.

Anyone willing to give me the lowdown on the young lads in the squad?

Aron Hall – 19 year old back-rower who came through the clubs system - Ballyclare RFC. Second year of Academy, awarded Youth Player of the Year a couple of years ago (2015).

Dalton was on the BRA Schools cup team from last (?) year. Highly rated apparently.

Random question

Anyone know why the game starts at 19.05 rather than the usual 19.35?

Is there an AI game on Friday night on the BBC?

marty2086 wrote:Random question

Anyone know why the game starts at 19.05 rather than the usual 19.35?

So that the final whistle isn't too far past some of the new inclusions' bedtimes

Maybe you've figured out why Ulster never pick young players Pete. The games would keep them up past their bedtime

Don, no AIs tomorrow. Just thought it was a little strange since attendances are dropping and one of the games we struggle to people through the gates for and we are kicking off earlier which makes it harder for fans

Don Alfonso wrote:Aron Hall – 19 year old back-rower who came through the clubs system - Ballyclare RFC.  Second year of Academy, awarded Youth Player of the Year a couple of years ago (2015).

Dalton was on the BRA Schools cup team from last (?) year. Highly rated apparently.

Cheers Don

Yeah agreed. There may be something else on in Belfast - hard to know. I suppose I could have a look online... but nah.

Two homegrown 19 year-old Academy forwards in the 23, one who came through the clubs system. What a time to be alive.

carpet baboon wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:Aron Hall – 19 year old back-rower who came through the clubs system - Ballyclare RFC.  Second year of Academy, awarded Youth Player of the Year a couple of years ago (2015).

Dalton was on the BRA Schools cup team from last (?) year. Highly rated apparently.

Cheers Don

Greg Jones was Leinster and Irish U20, I think number 6 primarily. Max Deegan was offered a Leinster Academy place and he wasn't. First year of Academy,

<Sound of record being hoiked>

Here you go -

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sport/rugby/ulster-rugby/who-are-the-ulster-academy-stars-set-for-senior-debuts-against-benetton-treviso-36346959.html

So these three (and Timoney) are being given a run-out ahead of Browne, Diack, Mattie Rea, Henry, Reidy and Deysel. The temptation to have one of those players in - in place of Greg, for example, given he's got Hall and Timoney starting - must have been immense. PLEASE let us continue like this.

The team put out has more to do with player availability than a desire to blood youth.
22 players missing according to Kiss.

Anderson is a big improvement - already seeing improvement in the Academy for positions 4 to 8.
Interestingly many at Ulster and IRFU didn't want him.
Campbell has been part of the scene for about 5 years and doesn't convince me at all

The Academy is improving - I posted early in the year I felt the current Academy is the strongest for years (say a decade)
As to where players come from I would suggest caution.
It is true the diversity is better but still fairly limited. 20 of the 26 (listed above) from 6 Schools.
Also I note with interest 4 of the 5 club players from what might be described as lesser clubs.
Steps in the right direction yes but a hell of a way to go.

Of the four youngsters on display tomorrow 2 are from Leinster.
Infact we could almost put out a Leinster academy team from our full squad, academy and sub academy.

Please don't get me wrong I am delighted this guys are playing and I do see some improvement in the Academy
but don't think we have magically turned a corner.

With reference to Marty Moore - excellent.
In part I think this is the final admission Herbst isn't going to reach the heights we had hoped for
Of those 6 props listed above at least one will go, possibly 2.

Ah You is out of contract this summer so odds are he will be the one to go surely and with Black out of contract maybe Warwick will focus more on the other side of the scrum?

If we could get Ah You to stick around on the cheap would it be so bad to keep him around? Especially with the injury history our props seem to have

I think we will keep Rodney and that Simpson will go and Warwick will stick to LH

Black almost certain to go with O'Hagan coming through

18-19:

LH - vDM, McCall, Warwick, O'Hagan
TH - Moore, Herbst, Ah You, Kane

That other forum always peeves me off with rumours but the latest is that a Connacht backrow is coming. They didn't say when. Nothing in it perhaps.

Connacht announced today that Jake Heenan is leaving. That's probably where that comes from.

The bloke who posted Heenan (Dave) is a complete and utter tube.
Thinks he is funny - he isn't.
Clear he has no contacts - just a wind up merchant.

If Ulster were to sign him for a year to see if he can hold up, it wouldn't be the worst bit of business we've done recently

geoff999rugby wrote:The bloke who posted Heenan (Dave) is a complete and utter tube.
Thinks he is funny - he isn't.
Clear he has no contacts - just a wind up merchant.

That's telling you Don!!