Ulster Rugby 2017-18

by geoff999rugby Thu 12 Oct 2017, 2:35 pm

First topic message reminder :

Rory Best (hamstring)
Marcell Coetzee (knee)
Craig Gilroy (back)
Chris Henry (larynx)
Rob Lyttle (shoulder)
Al O'Connor (concussion)
Jared Payne (headaches)
Dave Shanahan (hamstring)
Nick Timoney (ankle)
Schalk van der Merwe (shoulder)

by Redman Tue 17 Oct 2017, 12:05 am

Thanks Don, Cairns looked good in those clips.

Marty that's an interesting chart. Would be interesting to see where they've pulled those figures from. For example, do Ulster or Ireland book the gate receipts from the ERC? I remember seeing somewhere that the IRFU definitely take the gates from any beyond the quarter finals, not sure about group games.

It's not really clear how the costs work, the red line being the average? I don't understand. I would thought our revenues would be lower, but so would our costs given we will have players on central contracts, etc.

If you have the link to who produced it I'd like to take a look. Cheers,

by marty2086 Tue 17 Oct 2017, 3:59 pm

ERCC Wage and Revenues

All in there, also an interesting name commenting on the post

I take it they got the revenue figures from the annual report, though because they don't give figures on the table its hard to tell. It's even harder to tell now that the accounts are no longer showing within the annual report Headscratch

by Pete330v2 Tue 17 Oct 2017, 7:04 pm

As expected Jacko and Olding will be facing a full trial as it's been agreed that they have a case to answer. No date set for the trial to begin but it'll be well into the new year. I wonder have Ulster now fully accepted that plans have to be made to be without them. When Leali'ifano goes we've got Nelson and after him there's..........Heron Sad

Is it time to use the "Ulster in Crisis" thread yet?

by Kingshu Tue 17 Oct 2017, 9:40 pm

Its intresting that benetton have an average budget if bennettons is average who are the teams below aveeage?

by marty2086 Tue 17 Oct 2017, 9:56 pm

Kingshu wrote:Its intresting that benetton have an average budget if bennettons is average who are the teams below aveeage?

They don't

That bars their revenue for 2016/17, so they are bringing in the average of what everyone else is spending

by geoff999rugby Tue 17 Oct 2017, 10:12 pm

Pete330v2 wrote:As expected Jacko and Olding will be facing a full trial as it's been agreed that they have a case to answer. No date set for the trial to begin but it'll be well into the new year. I wonder have Ulster now fully accepted that plans have to be made to be without them. When Leali'ifano goes we've got Nelson and after him there's..........Heron
Is it time to use the "Ulster in Crisis" thread yet?

Pete I don't believe they will ever play for Ulster again - they certainly wont play this season.

From what I have heard, I reckon they will, probably, get off but it will be messy (ala Chad Evans)
Now, of course, what I have heard may well be incorrect.

by Pete330v2 Wed 18 Oct 2017, 8:13 am

geoff999rugby wrote:
Pete330v2 wrote:As expected Jacko and Olding will be facing a full trial as it's been agreed that they have a case to answer. No date set for the trial to begin but it'll be well into the new year. I wonder have Ulster now fully accepted that plans have to be made to be without them. When Leali'ifano goes we've got Nelson and after him there's..........Heron
Is it time to use the "Ulster in Crisis" thread yet?

Pete I don't believe they will ever play for Ulster again - they certainly wont play this season.

From what I have heard, I reckon they will, probably, get off but it will be messy (ala Chad Evans)
Now, of course, what I have heard may well be incorrect.

With that in mind, look at the players we have on the books who may or may not play for Ulster again. The two lads obviously, Marcel, Jared. The latter has at least been training but if those headaches don't disappear who knows, hopefully that's not the case. Payne is an example of a player who came from super rugby, got injured and had a season where we stood by him and rightly so, he came here as a world class player. He's had nothing but injuries since (what are we doing wrong) and has had relatively limited game time. He'll likely play again so he's a positive example, the others are looking like dead weight we're carrying.

by Standulstermen Wed 18 Oct 2017, 8:22 am

Go a step further and consider the players that (potentially) we will have to replace in the next 12-24 months for one reason or another

Payne
Bowe
Trimble
Jackson (possibly)
Olding (possibly)
Best (who knows how long he has)
Coetzee
Piutau
VDM
Black

That's a massive chunk squad and some bloody good players

by geoff999rugby Wed 18 Oct 2017, 8:56 am

Good news is vDM seems to be not as bad as first feared and could turn out somewhere this weekend - not La Rochelle
Best will be here till the World Cup, by then Trimble and Bowe will also be in their dotage
Tommy will have to take a huge pay cut next summer otherwise he will not be re signed (less than 50% of what he gets now)
I would add Cave to that list - rumour is he is looking to be away next summer
I would also add Deysel to that list - not good enough for a NIQ spot beyond 18-19

Irony of ironies is we could be short of players in positions 11-15 for the season 19 - 20
Only Gilroy, Stockdale, Marshall,McCloskey, Ludik, Nelson, Lyttle left - 7 players for 5 positions and 1 on the bench !
Personally cant get excited about Busby or Owens - Patterson looks solid, if unspectacular

Good news is the 1 to 10 players coming up are much stronger than in previous years (although 2nd row not great)
What is certain is the 3 NIQ slots will be key
From what I can see it will be 3 from 4 (Backrower, TH, Lock, 10) - depending on how the youngsters develop

by Redman Wed 18 Oct 2017, 11:37 am

geoff999rugby wrote:
Pete330v2 wrote:As expected Jacko and Olding will be facing a full trial as it's been agreed that they have a case to answer. No date set for the trial to begin but it'll be well into the new year. I wonder have Ulster now fully accepted that plans have to be made to be without them. When Leali'ifano goes we've got Nelson and after him there's..........Heron
Is it time to use the "Ulster in Crisis" thread yet?

Pete I don't believe they will ever play for Ulster again - they certainly wont play this season.

From what I have heard, I reckon they will, probably, get off but it will be messy (ala Chad Evans)
Now, of course, what I have heard may well be incorrect.

Totally unfounded speculation and all 3rd hand but I had heard that the case against Olding is stronger than the case against Jackson, could well be nonsense though. The shock that Jackson was charged from his legal team was genuine. I concur though on it being unlikely that either of them will line out for us again if details of the party comes out, regardless of guilt or innocence it's all going to look terrible. Again speculation but I had also heard that some of our key sponsors are less than impressed that Ulster are connected with this and have been considering pulling out.

by Redman Wed 18 Oct 2017, 11:48 am

Standulstermen wrote:Go a step further and consider the players that (potentially) we will have to replace in the next 12-24 months for one reason or another

Payne
Bowe
Trimble
Jackson (possibly)
Olding (possibly)
Best (who knows how long he has)
Coetzee
Piutau
VDM
Black

That's a massive chunk squad and some bloody good players

Yeah that's pretty grim. I'd be hopeful Payne might have a bit more mileage if he can get over his headaches. One of the weird upsides of his injuries is he should have a bit less wear and tear on the body .... at least in theory.

We do at least appear to be giving some of the youngsters a go and you do get a sense there's a bit more long term planning than there has been. What's really worrying is I don't get a sense that there are any stand out youngsters coming through. When Henderson was in the academy everyone knew he was a future Ireland international. Olding and Jackson too. Do we have anybody like that at the moment? I know Lowry is well thought of but is the chat that he might not be big enough to play at the highest level? Marcus Rea?

by marty2086 Wed 18 Oct 2017, 12:36 pm

There seems to be a few at least decent backrowers coming through

The guys geoff mentions in the backline aren't even guaranteed long term. Ludik will be 33 come 19-20 season, if Luke was to get another concussion no matter how long since his last one would he be allowed to play again? Everyone is one injury away from it all be over and given Stockdales rise, will the big spenders come sniffing around him?

The depth and what is coming through is sparse

by geoff999rugby Wed 18 Oct 2017, 1:23 pm

Our Academy is the strongest its been for a decade - just not 11 to 15.
Far from being sparse - the front row, the back row and the half-backs have real potential

Ludik should be with us for 4 years, you cant plan much beyond that.
Marshall has had only one concussion in nearly 5 years (1 too many but no longer the issue of 5/6 years)
Stockdale want to play for Ireland - I don't see him going anywhere

by Pete330v2 Wed 18 Oct 2017, 1:30 pm

This is all painful midweek reading folks can we not lighten the tone a little?
Maybe we could discuss the match this weekend against La Roch..........oh no, that's worse.

by marty2086 Wed 18 Oct 2017, 1:48 pm

I was speaking in terms of the backline just geoff, we do seem to be in a position of where we were once churning out players covering 11 to 15 while we could only find a few decent forwards now its flipped on its head. Maybe a case of the focus being shifted too much in one direction?

I thought it was 3 or 4 years since Lukes last concussion but I mentioned it because another one would probably see calls from some quarters for him to retire? I don't know about you but after every big collision he's in I always watch to see if he ok

I don't know Stockdale so you could be right about him but if he was to reach a Piutau level and get offered that kind of money would he stay or go?

There just a load of variables in there that are out of Ulsters control and there doesn't seem to be anything coming behind to cover those that are inevitably going and those that we may lose through the unknown factors. Even just the usual attrition rate through a season would be beyond disastrous

by marty2086 Wed 18 Oct 2017, 1:52 pm

Pete330v2 wrote:This is all painful midweek reading folks can we not lighten the tone a little?
Maybe we could discuss the match this weekend against La Roch..........oh no, that's worse.

After watching La Rochelle against Quins they are more than beatable, both teams were cutting each other open and Quins wasted some opportunities

It may come down to who plays 10 for La Rochelle, Lamb was hot and cold on Saturday and Brock James is due back either this week or next for them

by Pete330v2 Wed 18 Oct 2017, 2:28 pm

marty2086 wrote:
Pete330v2 wrote:This is all painful midweek reading folks can we not lighten the tone a little?
Maybe we could discuss the match this weekend against La Roch..........oh no, that's worse.

After watching La Rochelle against Quins they are more than beatable, both teams were cutting each other open and Quins wasted some opportunities

It may come down to who plays 10 for La Rochelle, Lamb was hot and cold on Saturday and Brock James is due back either this week or next for them

I read a match about their last Top14 match that said they were woeful as well. I watched extended highlights of the Quins game and both sides looked pretty porous. They do seem to play better with James at the steering wheel so lets just hope he can take another week off. I just hope we get a decent performance from Ulster no matter what form we find La Rochelle in at the weekend.

by marty2086 Wed 18 Oct 2017, 3:42 pm

Guys like Piutau, Stockdale and McCloskey I think could have a field day in La Rochelle but it could be the old problem of them being a different team at home at not as easy to break down

by Redman Wed 18 Oct 2017, 4:26 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:Our Academy is the strongest its been for a decade - just not 11 to 15.
Far from being sparse - the front row, the back row and the half-backs have real potential

Ludik should be with us for 4 years, you cant plan much beyond that.
Marshall has had only one concussion in nearly 5 years (1 too many but no longer the issue of 5/6 years)
Stockdale want to play for Ireland - I don't see him going anywhere

Geoff, if you had to bet on one of the new crop in the academy playing for Ireland who would you bet on?

by geoff999rugby Wed 18 Oct 2017, 5:00 pm

marty2086 wrote: I was speaking in terms of the backline just geoff, we do seem to be in a position of where we were once churning out players covering 11 to 15 while we could only find a few decent forwards now its flipped on its head. Maybe a case of the focus being shifted too much in one direction?

My error - in which I agree with you.
We should add Butler as a maybe although it remains to be seen whether he is any more than a big lump

marty2086 wrote:
I don't know Stockdale so you could be right about him but if he was to reach a Piutau level and get offered that kind of money would he stay or go?

Stockdale want to play for Ireland and as we know you have to be very special to play for Ireland and not play in the Pro14.
Since Murphy/Easterby there have only been 2 I believe (Sexton and Bowe)
Good though Stockdale appears to be we are a number of years away from him making that level

by geoff999rugby Wed 18 Oct 2017, 5:06 pm

Redman wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:Our Academy is the strongest its been for a decade - just not 11 to 15.
Far from being sparse - the front row, the back row and the half-backs have real potential

Ludik should be with us for 4 years, you cant plan much beyond that.
Marshall has had only one concussion in nearly 5 years (1 too many but no longer the issue of 5/6 years)
Stockdale want to play for Ireland - I don't see him going anywhere

Geoff, if you had to bet on one of the new crop in the academy playing for Ireland who would you bet on?

It is more a case of the overall standard being higher but some who stand out are:

O'Hagan - Prop
McBurney - Hooker
SH - Stewart, Cairns
OH - Lowry, Curtis
There are also a couple of backrowers who are highly thought out but my mind has gone blank

by carpet baboon Wed 18 Oct 2017, 6:12 pm

How's Curtis been going? Is he sticking to 10 as I read in SA he played a lot at 15.

by Kanbei Wed 18 Oct 2017, 7:34 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:
Redman wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:Our Academy is the strongest its been for a decade - just not 11 to 15.
Far from being sparse - the front row, the back row and the half-backs have real potential

Ludik should be with us for 4 years, you cant plan much beyond that.
Marshall has had only one concussion in nearly 5 years (1 too many but no longer the issue of 5/6 years)
Stockdale want to play for Ireland - I don't see him going anywhere

Geoff, if you had to bet on one of the new crop in the academy playing for Ireland who would you bet on?

It is more a case of the overall standard being higher but some who stand out are:

O'Hagan - Prop
McBurney - Hooker
SH - Stewart, Cairns
OH - Lowry, Curtis
There are also a couple of backrowers who are highly thought out but my mind has gone blank

Imagine you are thinking of Dunleavy and Hall. Both excellent prospects, Dunleavy especially is a massive unit. Started for the A's at the weekend, scored a try and he is only 18.

by marty2086 Wed 18 Oct 2017, 9:37 pm

vDM set to make his debut on Sunday. Payne is still week to week and Rory is too.

Interesting to hear Jono refer to himself as the forwards coach

Jono Gibbes on who is available for Sunday

by geoff999rugby Wed 18 Oct 2017, 11:26 pm

Kanbei wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:
Redman wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:Our Academy is the strongest its been for a decade - just not 11 to 15.
Far from being sparse - the front row, the back row and the half-backs have real potential

Ludik should be with us for 4 years, you cant plan much beyond that.
Marshall has had only one concussion in nearly 5 years (1 too many but no longer the issue of 5/6 years)
Stockdale want to play for Ireland - I don't see him going anywhere

Geoff, if you had to bet on one of the new crop in the academy playing for Ireland who would you bet on?

It is more a case of the overall standard being higher but some who stand out are:

O'Hagan - Prop
McBurney - Hooker
SH - Stewart, Cairns
OH - Lowry, Curtis
There are also a couple of backrowers who are highly thought out but my mind has gone blank

Imagine you are thinking of Dunleavy and Hall. Both excellent prospects, Dunleavy especially is a massive unit. Started for the A's at the weekend, scored a try and he is only 18.

Thanks - they were who I was thinking of thumbsup

by geoff999rugby Wed 18 Oct 2017, 11:28 pm

marty2086 wrote:vDM set to make his debut on Sunday. Payne is still week to week and Rory is too.

Interesting to hear Jono refer to himself as the forwards coach

Jono Gibbes on who is available for Sunday

I didn't think they would bring vDM back so quickly; clearly worried about the size of the La Rochelle pack.
He has made a remarkable recovery over the last 3 weeks or so..

by Redman Wed 18 Oct 2017, 11:37 pm

marty2086 wrote:vDM set to make his debut on Sunday. Payne is still week to week and Rory is too.

Interesting to hear Jono refer to himself as the forwards coach

Jono Gibbes on who is available for Sunday

Does make you wonder. Was he mis-sold the role and he's come to realise that Kiss is calling the shots. Or is he happy to bide his time within the structure because he knows Kiss is going to moving at some point in the near to medium future.

Does make you wonder why he'd get over acclimatising to life in France only to move back to an inferior team for the same forward's coach job.

by Redman Wed 18 Oct 2017, 11:37 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:
Kanbei wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:
Redman wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:Our Academy is the strongest its been for a decade - just not 11 to 15.
Far from being sparse - the front row, the back row and the half-backs have real potential

Ludik should be with us for 4 years, you cant plan much beyond that.
Marshall has had only one concussion in nearly 5 years (1 too many but no longer the issue of 5/6 years)
Stockdale want to play for Ireland - I don't see him going anywhere

Geoff, if you had to bet on one of the new crop in the academy playing for Ireland who would you bet on?

It is more a case of the overall standard being higher but some who stand out are:

O'Hagan - Prop
McBurney - Hooker
SH - Stewart, Cairns
OH - Lowry, Curtis
There are also a couple of backrowers who are highly thought out but my mind has gone blank

Imagine you are thinking of Dunleavy and Hall. Both excellent prospects, Dunleavy especially is a massive unit. Started for the A's at the weekend, scored a try and he is only 18.
Thanks - they were who I was thinking of

Thanks both, I'll look out for him.

by clivemcl Thu 19 Oct 2017, 4:23 pm

Fair play to Robbie. He has been a fine and committed servant. Ten years though... how can that be???

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGNtDxf8C3o

by Don Alfonso Thu 19 Oct 2017, 9:28 pm

Ahhh, that;s quite touching actually. At times (Anscombe's first season, this season) he's been a really vital part of the squad.

by Pete330v2 Fri 20 Oct 2017, 9:37 am

I agree, I found it touching and I'm a cynical sort of git.
He's been a strong squad member for so long but I didn't realize it was a decade, we're all getting old.

Good man Robbie, a true Ulsterman.

by marty2086 Fri 20 Oct 2017, 9:43 am

Could be some big team news later today

Richard Mulligan in the Newsletter is reporting Rory is to have a fitness test this morning and could make the bench on Sunday

http://www.newsletter.co.uk/sport/rugby/exclusive-rory-best-boost-for-ulster-and-ireland-1-8206443

by Pete330v2 Fri 20 Oct 2017, 10:14 am

marty2086 wrote:Could be some big team news later today

Richard Mulligan in the Newsletter is reporting Rory is to have a fitness test this morning and could make the bench on Sunday

http://www.newsletter.co.uk/sport/rugby/exclusive-rory-best-boost-for-ulster-and-ireland-1-8206443

Rory Logan Best

by Redman Fri 20 Oct 2017, 10:41 am

marty2086 wrote:Could be some big team news later today

Richard Mulligan in the Newsletter is reporting Rory is to have a fitness test this morning and could make the bench on Sunday

http://www.newsletter.co.uk/sport/rugby/exclusive-rory-best-boost-for-ulster-and-ireland-1-8206443

The man's an absolute rock. I still flit through YouTube and watch the clip for Ireland where he breaks his arm but gets back into the defensive line. Doesn't go off till a break in play. He's taken so much sh*t throughout his early career, I'm so glad he's finally recognised as the legend he is.

by marty2086 Fri 20 Oct 2017, 11:06 am

Redman wrote:
marty2086 wrote:Could be some big team news later today

Richard Mulligan in the Newsletter is reporting Rory is to have a fitness test this morning and could make the bench on Sunday

http://www.newsletter.co.uk/sport/rugby/exclusive-rory-best-boost-for-ulster-and-ireland-1-8206443

The man's an absolute rock. I still flit through YouTube and watch the clip for Ireland where he breaks his arm but gets back into the defensive line. Doesn't go off till a break in play. He's taken so much sh*t throughout his early career, I'm so glad he's finally recognised as the legend he is.

What kind of weirdo does that? Definitely not me Whistle

by marty2086 Fri 20 Oct 2017, 11:42 am

A Team news in for Sunday, vDM won't be in France and neither will Pete Nelson

Ross Kane now third choice tight head or working back to full fitness still?

(1-8): Schalk van der Merwe, Adam McBurney, Ross Kane (Capt), Jack Regan, Matthew Dalton, Clive Ross, Aaron Hall, Joe Dunleavy;
(9-15): Jonny Stewart, Peter Nelson, David Busby, Rory Butler, Callum Patterson, Craig Gilroy, Jack Owens.

Replacements: Zack McCall, Jonny Simpson, Greg Jones, Caleb Montgomery, Aaron Cairns, Brett Herron, Johnny McPhillips.

by marty2086 Fri 20 Oct 2017, 12:11 pm

Some...interesting selections

(1-8): C Black, R Herring, W Herbst, K Treadwell, A O'Connor, I Henderson (captain), C Henry, S Reidy;
(9-15): P Marshall, C Lealiifano, T Bowe, S McCloskey, D Cave, A Trimble, C Piutau;
Replacements (16-23): R Best, K McCall, R Ah You, R Diack, M Rea, J Cooney, L Marshall, J Stockdale.

by toml Fri 20 Oct 2017, 12:38 pm

Look like we are targeting Leinster over this one.
You do get the feeling the expected result for this one is a plucky defeat.

by marty2086 Fri 20 Oct 2017, 12:56 pm

Think Les said earlier in the week a few players picked up knocks last week, that's why Cooney went off so sensible not to overload them and some of the younger guys are moved to the bench which is pretty strong and could be key to the result

by Redman Fri 20 Oct 2017, 1:48 pm

marty2086 wrote:Think Les said earlier in the week a few players picked up knocks last week, that's why Cooney went off so sensible not to overload them and some of the younger guys are moved to the bench which is pretty strong and could be key to the result

From memory he had ice on his hand and looked in a bit of discomfort.

by Pete330v2 Fri 20 Oct 2017, 2:07 pm

This obviously hasn't been targeted as one we can win which is realistic lets face it. There's little point in always having the winning attitude especially when it's as deluded as going over the top in WW1. Leinster is another tough one in less than a week so keep a few emergency options on the bench this week with a view to keeping them fresh and uninjured.

Also perhaps there's one eye on the game opening up in the second half and if the French defense is as understanding as last week there'd be a chance of a try bonus point. Who knows, if we're still in touch maybe there'd be a losing bonus point in the running. Someone tell Paul Marshall that bonus points actually matter though Wink

I'm still crossing my fingers for a dream upset like a Zebre fan awaiting the arrival of the almighty Ulster a few weeks back.

by clivemcl Fri 20 Oct 2017, 2:22 pm

It's funny, based on form we kinda know it's a 'weaker' team. But I'd say most rugby fans not following us closely might look at that team and think it's our strongest. And well... if each of them play to their top ability, it can still be a team capable of a good performance.
I'm holding back from throwing in the towel just yet.

by marty2086 Fri 20 Oct 2017, 3:00 pm

It's pretty close to our strongest pack on whats available and team capable of doing a job, I can see us working to keep things tight and then hoping the bench can put us over the top. It's a fairly physical team with the exception of Marshall and maybe even Lealiifano and plenty of mobility too to get around the park if we can

by Don Alfonso Sat 21 Oct 2017, 9:11 am

Are Jackson and Olding playing club rugby?

Just thinking about it, if they don't play at any sort of decent level for at least a year and a half, will they actually be any good, if they do make it back?

by clivemcl Sun 22 Oct 2017, 3:30 pm

Not too shabby from the old boys Cave and Bowe so far!

by eirebilly Sun 22 Oct 2017, 3:36 pm

Piatau has turned up as well.

by clivemcl Sun 22 Oct 2017, 3:41 pm

He spotted the second one but unfortunately was playing advantage by then. Hate that video refs can’t push a button or something. It was so obvious on the tv.

by clivemcl Sun 22 Oct 2017, 3:51 pm

So Owens tells the hooker he must strike. Gives penalty against Ulster. Then he warns La Rochelle hooker for not striking (at the right time). What’s that about???

by clivemcl Sun 22 Oct 2017, 3:59 pm

Nobody else watching this? Surely Bowe wasn’t counter rucked through the gate there? He was shoved into Marshall from the side clearly.

by Pete330v2 Sun 22 Oct 2017, 4:09 pm

clivemcl wrote:So Owens tells the hooker he must strike. Gives penalty against Ulster. Then he warns La Rochelle hooker for not striking (at the right time). What’s that about???

It's a head scratcher all right Clive, with that in mind I wish Owens would actually shut it and let the players make the penalisable offences. If the players don't know the laws then they should suffer.
All that aside Ulster are still in this and deservedly so, optimism is riding high, just high enough for the usual topple but high none the less

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