Ulster Rugby 2017-18

by geoff999rugby Thu Oct 12, 2017 3:35 pm

First topic message reminder :

Rory Best (hamstring)
Marcell Coetzee (knee)
Craig Gilroy (back)
Chris Henry (larynx)
Rob Lyttle (shoulder)
Al O'Connor (concussion)
Jared Payne (headaches)
Dave Shanahan (hamstring)
Nick Timoney (ankle)
Schalk van der Merwe (shoulder)

by marty2086 Fri Dec 01, 2017 1:14 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:Back to the rugby KofH who is one the good posters elsewhere says
Bowe to retire next summer and Trimble to give it one year on an Ulster contract.

The only thing that, slightly, surprises me is Trimble not going as well.
Bowe has dodgy knees and would take a massive pay cut if he stayed - say a 1/3rd of that he is getting now - certainly less than a half.

Heard Bowe on the radio this morning, talking about getting into the Ireland squad, isn't the talk of someone looking at retirement

by **rodders** Fri Dec 01, 2017 2:55 pm

marty2086 wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:Back to the rugby KofH who is one the good posters elsewhere says
Bowe to retire next summer and Trimble to give it one year on an Ulster contract.

The only thing that, slightly, surprises me is Trimble not going as well.
Bowe has dodgy knees and would take a massive pay cut if he stayed - say a 1/3rd of that he is getting now - certainly less than a half.

Heard Bowe on the radio this morning, talking about getting into the Ireland squad, isn't the talk of someone looking at retirement

Tommmmmyyyy Booowwweee

by Redman Fri Dec 01, 2017 3:47 pm

marty2086 wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:Back to the rugby KofH who is one the good posters elsewhere says
Bowe to retire next summer and Trimble to give it one year on an Ulster contract.

The only thing that, slightly, surprises me is Trimble not going as well.
Bowe has dodgy knees and would take a massive pay cut if he stayed - say a 1/3rd of that he is getting now - certainly less than a half.

Heard Bowe on the radio this morning, talking about getting into the Ireland squad, isn't the talk of someone looking at retirement

Didn't hear the interview but I'm not sure they're mutually exclusive positions. He may fancy he's still got a shot at the 6 Nations (is he worse than Dave Kearney? At least Bowe isn't chucking intercept tries) but still fancies retirement at the end of the season.

If he stays fit I'd love to see him stick around at least 1 more season and I actually thought we've seen a steady improvement in his play as he's got up to speed from his injury.

by Redman Fri Dec 01, 2017 3:50 pm

Amazingly we're 4/11 to win tonight. Given it's the same team we fielded last week (which I'm happy with given the amount of youth we've got out there) and we almost lost at home, not sure we'll go much better away.

by neilthom7 Fri Dec 01, 2017 10:16 pm

Ulster just don't even have a defence, like they just aren't even defending at all

by Pot Hale Fri Dec 01, 2017 10:24 pm

Great game between Dragons and Ulster for the Neutral. Bonus points and honours even at the end is fair. Although Leali’ifano should be taken out back and smacked for that last missed kick.

by Redman Fri Dec 01, 2017 10:44 pm

Actually far more disappointed with that that I was last week. At a macro level you could see that management wanted to shut up shop ASAP with a lead but in the end it's the bench who allowed it to slip.

The kids + Gilroy earned us a lead and the experience and impact off the bench should have killed it. As it was Best, Black, Henry and Cooney and co coughed up 17 points.

BBC commentary seemed to speak with 1 voice on the defense. Seemed to a clear message from the pundits that Kiss needs to go.

by **RiscaGame** Fri Dec 01, 2017 11:18 pm

Pot Hale wrote:Great game between Dragons and Ulster for the Neutral. Bonus points and honours even at the end is fair. Although Leali’ifano should be taken out back and smacked for that last missed kick.

Yeah it was bad. Think him and Super Gav will be disappointed with their kicking, though they were all on the wrong side for them. That said the last kick looked pretty simple.

Really enjoyable game. Didn’t hold out much hope at 8-0 and 27-15 to be honest.

by neilthom7 Fri Dec 01, 2017 11:56 pm

Ulster have a number of problems this year that are all coming together to create what we are watching. Just from what I have observed this year:
1. The Squad isn't as good as last year- We have lost some top calibre players to one thing and another, Pienaar, Jackson, Olding, Payne have essentially all been removed from the squad and the replacements brought in haven't been of the same standard, it has meant there is a big drop in quality in what was an already thin in top quality terms. The one bright spot is the youngsters getting a chance, that will help our squad depth down the line.

2. Defence- It's just non existent, there doesn't seem to be a defensive plan, the defensive rucking just isn't there and the tackling is woeful. Huge problem.

3.Attacking plan- Ulsters is not good, we play a lot of one out smash it up stuff and by the time we do go wide half the space has been taken away. When you have intelligent, quick players like your Gilroys, Stockdales and Piataus you need to make the pitch as wide as possible give them the chance for a one on one and Ulster don't do that.

4. Tactical game- One of the major loses is our 9-10 partnership. Last year Pienaar and Jackson were able to make up for weaknesses up front by kicking well and playing a good tactical game. This year Cooney looks like a solid player but no more and Lealifano a 12 playing 10. The control of the match isn't there, as proven tonight when we had the lead.

5. Set Piece- The scrum and lineout have both faultered this year at various points and if we can't get a stable platform it makes it hard to go from

6. Power- Ulster look really underpowered. Our carriers have struggled to break the gainline (minus stockdale, Mccloskey) and we have struggled at the breakdown, the absence of Coetzee and the fact Deysel hasn't really played a whole lot don't help and neither does the fact Henderson gets a couple of games before he is off playing for Ireland again.

There's probably more but those are 6 points which need addressing and it's worrying that I can name so many problems when really you shouldn't have more than 1 or 2 of those issues at any one time

by Artful_Dodger Sat Dec 02, 2017 12:05 am

neilthom7 wrote:Ulster have a number of problems this year that are all coming together to create what we are watching. Just from what I have observed this year:

2. Defence- It's just non existent, there doesn't seem to be a defensive plan, the defensive rucking just isn't there and the tackling is woeful. Huge problem.

The most worrying thing here is that our main man in the coaching team is a former Ireland defence coach. I wonder more and more did they send him North to get him out of the Ireland national team setup. In addition to this, Lealiifano and Piutau gone next season, very worrying.

Dragons played with real spirit, Lealiifano shouldn't have missed that kick in a million years, but it would have been brutal on the Dragons to lose that game. Probably a fair result.

by Redman Sat Dec 02, 2017 12:11 am

Artful_Dodger wrote:
neilthom7 wrote:Ulster have a number of problems this year that are all coming together to create what we are watching. Just from what I have observed this year:

2. Defence- It's just non existent, there doesn't seem to be a defensive plan, the defensive rucking just isn't there and the tackling is woeful. Huge problem.

The most worrying thing here is that our main man in the coaching team is a former Ireland defence coach. I wonder more and more did they send him North to get him out of the Ireland national team setup. In addition to this, Lealiifano and Piutau gone next season, very worrying.

Dragons played with real spirit, Lealiifano shouldn't have missed that kick in a million years, but it would have been brutal on the Dragons to lose that game. Probably a fair result.

Agree with all of this. I've wonder why they were prepared to lose him when you've got an entire setup designed to ensure that Ireland comes first - always.

by The Great Aukster Sat Dec 02, 2017 10:05 am

Ulster's defensive system is far too porous, but Kiss isn't the one missing 22 tackles. Lealiifano and Reidy missed 9 between them and hence Griffiths et al had a field day running through the breakdown.
It is fashionable to slate Les and perhaps rightly so as he is the head honcho overseeing the whole debacle, but the team is devoid of leadership, strategy and the ability to execute any sort of coherent gameplan.
Maybe Kiss is not letting Gibbes and Peel do their respective jobs, but thus far none of the coaching team can point to any improvements in the team.

by carpet baboon Sat Dec 02, 2017 1:50 pm

Reports this morning that Quade cooper will be let go from the reds. Bit of a maverick but might be worth a punt

by marty2086 Sun Dec 03, 2017 1:13 am

The Great Aukster wrote:Ulster's defensive system is far too porous, but Kiss isn't the one missing 22 tackles. Lealiifano and Reidy missed 9 between them and hence Griffiths et al had a field day running through the breakdown.
It is fashionable to slate Les and perhaps rightly so as he is the head honcho overseeing the whole debacle, but the team is devoid of leadership, strategy and the ability to execute any sort of coherent gameplan.
Maybe Kiss is not letting Gibbes and Peel do their respective jobs, but thus far none of the coaching team can point to any improvements in the team.

Think you've hit a lot of nails on the head there, there were plenty of guys missing tackles in the game. I haven't seen the stats but the centres seemed to be as bad as anyone with it, communication and leadership are severely lacking.

There does seem to be an attitude problem too, twice we got a decent lead and sat back and thought we had it in the bag. Dragons came flying out of the blocks and looked good but then Ulster took control and looked like they could run away with it, then the foot came of the gas. Then in the second half, off to a great start and then sat back again. It was the same against Treviso.

I think two of their tries came from us conceding a penalty at scrum in and around their 22 then compounding that with errors from lineouts and missing tackles

I would disagree with the idea of the coaches not being allowed to do their jobs, I think the scrum has improved in recent weeks but seemed to go wrong this week not helped by vDM looking like a deer in the headlights at times and Mitrea doing what he does. The attacking play at times was fantastic on some of the few occasions we tried it.

by neilthom7 Sun Dec 03, 2017 10:35 am

I think part of the problem at tackle time is the choke tackle. Ulster seem to be trying to get the choke tackle a good 80 to 90% of their tackles. It can be good because if it works you can get a turnover but the problem is when you try it as much as they do then teams know it's coming and adapt.
When you try it and it's not on it causes missed tackles because you aren't trying to put the guy down and they can break your tackle.
One of the things we have seen Ireland do in the last year since Farrell came in that has served them well was to still go for the choke tackle but only when it's on. Much more they just put the guy down and try and win the ruck by getting to it quickly.
Now you could definitely argue we don't have the back row to do that but it's got to be better than conceding so many yards

by geoff999rugby Sun Dec 03, 2017 5:01 pm

neilthom7 wrote: Ulster have a number of problems this year that are all coming together to create what we are watching. Just from what I have observed this year:
1. The Squad isn't as good as last year- We have lost some top calibre players to one thing and another, Pienaar, Jackson, Olding, Payne have essentially all been removed from the squad and the replacements brought in haven't been of the same standard, it has meant there is a big drop in quality in what was an already thin in top quality terms. The one bright spot is the youngsters getting a chance, that will help our squad depth down the line.

Correct

neilthom7 wrote: 2. Defence- It's just non existent, there doesn't seem to be a defensive plan, the defensive rucking just isn't there and the tackling is woeful. Huge problem.

There is a defensive plan and it is a Kiss plan and it is crap. We play a soft drift defence that gives up big yardage very easily. I don't blame the players - the reason we are missing tackles is the defensive system means our players are moving sideways or backwards and being confronted by players at pace. This leads them to be so vulnerable to a soft inside shoulder.
Every man and his dog can see that a successful defence is dependant upon good line speed to get into the faces of the opposition before they build up momentum - we do the opposite of that.
As to the midfield missing tackles that is in large part also because we don't have a backrow anywhere near good enough to protect them and take some of the power out of the opposition backrow. For years Ferris acted as the midfield minder - that was how we got away with the revolving door that is Ian Humphreys playing for us.
If you are wondering why Cave doesn't get selected it is because he pointed the obvious about the defence out in a group forum - Kiss has put him on the naughty step every since.
Cave said what most players think

neilthom7 wrote: 3.Attacking plan- Ulsters is not good, we play a lot of one out smash it up stuff and by the time we do go wide half the space has been taken away. When you have intelligent, quick players like your Gilroys, Stockdales and Piataus you need to make the pitch as wide as possible give them the chance for a one on one and Ulster don't do that.

There is an old saying you earn the right to go wide.
We don't because we cant.
We cant because only Henderson, and to a lesser extent Timoney and Ah You can get over the gain line, most of our forwards cant.

neilthom7 wrote: 4. Tactical game- One of the major loses is our 9-10 partnership. Last year Pienaar and Jackson were able to make up for weaknesses up front by kicking well and playing a good tactical game. This year Cooney looks like a solid player but no more and Lealifano a 12 playing 10. The control of the match isn't there, as proven tonight when we had the lead.

Agree - Pienaar covered up deficiencies for years that plus Jackson going Awol has exposed us.
Make no mistake though Cooney is a decent enough 9 - IF we sign an ok 10 we will be alright - however the lack of a backrow will leave them exposed.

neilthom7 wrote: 5. Set Piece- The scrum and lineout have both faultered this year at various points and if we can't get a stable platform it makes it hard to go from

Have you noticed our lineouts are at their best when Andrew plays ?
As to scrum the reason is simply - we do not one outstanding prop on the books and many are plan poor
vDM is, as I predicted inadequate - a total pudding what a waste of a slot

neilthom7 wrote: 6. Power- Ulster look really underpowered. Our carriers have struggled to break the gainline (minus stockdale, Mccloskey) and we have struggled at the breakdown, the absence of Coetzee and the fact Deysel hasn't really played a whole lot don't help and neither does the fact Henderson gets a couple of games before he is off playing for Ireland again.

Look at the players who are capable of breaking the gain line, In the first XV, more of them are backs than forwards - Piatau, McCloskey, Stockdale as opposed to Henderson, Timoney.
Coetzee is almost certainly finished and Deysel is a blowhard. Munster were happy to see him go for a reason.

neilthom7 wrote: There's probably more but those are 6 points which need addressing and it's worrying that I can name so many problems when really you shouldn't have more than 1 or 2 of those issues at any one time

Give our problems I do not see us as contenders for any trophy for 3 to 5 years.
It will take 3 years to turn things round after Kiss goes.

One of the first things is get the NIQ players sorted out - 2 leaving, 1 a permanent sick note, 2 poor players.
Who panicked into giving Deysel a contract has a lot to answer for

One last word on Kiss - Schmidt was happy to ditch him after a season.
He did that for a reason - he wasn't very good.
He came up with one good idea - the choke tackle and has been living off it every since.
He has to go

by marty2086 Sun Dec 03, 2017 5:04 pm

The choke tackle is nothing to do with Ulsters problems, it's more of an after thought these days and players try to rip the ball in the tackle as much as anything these days.

The passive nature of the defence is the problem, Kiss has tried to employ a number of different tactics at times so far this season but recently we seem to be stuck in the stand back and let them play in front of us approach. Only problem is that the players are then flat footed too often, there seems to be a reliance on sending teams wide and players trying to read a pass or make a big hit to send them back.

Against the Dragons though, Henson playing flat opened things up for their other backs and other big ball carriers who all too often broke the line or just made made a yard or two by a simple step.

by geoff999rugby Sun Dec 03, 2017 5:10 pm

Now I am no prop (although I have played hooker in my time) but watching vDM made me wince.

His technique is terrible.
He try to get under his opposite number (which is good) but then instead of driving in and through the player forcing him to pop
he is driving down which both doesn't worry the opponent and makes him a penalty machine waiting to happen.
His body shape is all wrong.

As I say a total pudding

by neilthom7 Sun Dec 03, 2017 5:49 pm

marty2086 wrote:The choke tackle is nothing to do with Ulsters problems, it's more of an after thought these days and players try to rip the ball in the tackle as much as anything these days.

The passive nature of the defence is the problem, Kiss has tried to employ a number of different tactics at times so far this season but recently we seem to be stuck in the stand back and let them play in front of us approach. Only problem is that the players are then flat footed too often, there seems to be a reliance on sending teams wide and players trying to read a pass or make a big hit to send them back.

Against the Dragons though, Henson playing flat opened things up for their other backs and other big ball carriers who all too often broke the line or just made made a yard or two by a simple step.

I agree the passive nature is a problem but Ulster defence has several problems and the choke tackle is one. A vast majority of Ulster's tackling is to try and hold the man up, which is a set up for the choke tackle, when the choke tackle doesn't work they try to rip it out instead. The problem is when you don't get the turnover that allows your tackles to be broken and also when you do put the guy down usually you lose significant yards and give the opposition front foot ball.
When you put that with the passive nature of the drift defence is makes it even worse and vice versa as you need to be on the front foot and aggressive to try and hold a player up.

by neilthom7 Sun Dec 03, 2017 6:19 pm

I agree with much of what you said Geoff, in terms of attacking we do not earn the right to go wide as you have said. One of the things we can do is bash it up close to the ruck and tie players in on one side of the park, leave a good amount of space free out wide. After a few times bashing it up even if we don't make ground we will have tied some players in. If we can then get decently quick ball there would be lots of space for piatau etc to exploit. This may then give us go forward ball via a different route since we don't seem to be able to it throught power alone

If you are wondering why Cave doesn't get selected it is because he pointed the obvious about the defence out in a group forum - Kiss has put him on the naughty step every since.
Cave said what most players think

This but is very interesting, if that is true and I have no reason to doubt that it is then that is a problem. Thats awful man management which is something a head coach really needs to have.
It's also an issue in terms he would rather have a good player not playing just to punish them for speaking out.
Finally it is a big problem if someone else points out a problem and you punish them because you cannot see or refuse to see your own weaknesses.
I ask this Geoff, if the players are mostly thinking what Cave suggested and he has been punished for that, is it likely the players themselves are losing confidence in Kiss? Because if that were the case thats a really big problem

by geoff999rugby Sun Dec 03, 2017 7:09 pm

I believe a significant number of experienced players have lost confidence in Kiss.
At the very least the older heads - but remember we have a lot of youngsters and newbies.
The number of players who have been at Ulster a fair while and are confident of their place in their place in the squad is actually quite small.
If he left and Gibbes was given control I suspect there would be collective relief all round.

On two other matters been hearing rumours that Ferris keeps being told to tone it down on the BBC.
Saw that against Dragons - he came out all guns blazing for Kiss at the start but far more accommodating at the end of the match.

Secondly, the club are brazing themselves for a big drop off in Season Tickets next year.
We lost a 1000 last year and are planning for up to 3,000 !
Now I don't believe for one moment we will lose a further 3000 but it is a sign they are getting very worried.

One thing that has seriously pissed off a lot of people is you can now get 6 games, in the Memorial end, for £116 which works out at £19.67 a game.
I brought a full season ticket for the stand which costs £293 for 14 games which works out at £20.93 ish a game..
In addition these half season tickets can get a 10% discount for merchandise in the month of January.
No discounts offered to full Season Ticket holder.

The distinct impression is we are being taken for granted.
The whirlwind will hit them this summer.
not 3000 but 1500 would not surprise me

That would be a drop of 25% in 2 years.

I

by marty2086 Sun Dec 03, 2017 8:00 pm

The way things are going Mark McCall could be free soon, Sarries have lost their last 5 games and have a double header against Clermont

by The Great Aukster Sun Dec 03, 2017 11:12 pm

Cave simply is too slow to be a top 13. Maybe he tells it like it is but he is not playing 13 because he is too slow rather than as a result of what he said. Perhaps he is not playing 12 because of what he said - then again he was supposed to be injured wasn't he?

by Redman Mon Dec 04, 2017 2:17 am

The Great Aukster wrote:Cave simply is too slow to be a top 13. Maybe he tells it like it is but he is not playing 13 because he is too slow rather than as a result of what he said. Perhaps he is not playing 12 because of what he said - then again he was supposed to be injured wasn't he?

Too slow for international rugby sure, but he's been more than capable playing top standard rugby for us. He was part of our defense which Bell coached which was the best in the league. If he's on the long term injury list you'd expect we would have heard something. Has he played in the last 6 months?

by MrsP Mon Dec 04, 2017 9:58 am

Redman wrote:
The Great Aukster wrote:Cave simply is too slow to be a top 13. Maybe he tells it like it is but he is not playing 13 because he is too slow rather than as a result of what he said. Perhaps he is not playing 12 because of what he said - then again he was supposed to be injured wasn't he?

Too slow for international rugby sure, but he's been more than capable playing top standard rugby for us. He was part of our defense which Bell coached which was the best in the league. If he's on the long term injury list you'd expect we would have heard something. Has he played in the last 6 months?

Cave has started 4 matches this season and come off the bench twice, most recently against Benetton at Ravenhill.

And wasn't it him who quickly converted his own try in Italy earlier in the season?

by geoff999rugby Mon Dec 04, 2017 10:07 am

Cave is a better 13 than Bowe.
Cave has been unavailable for very few games this year.
No one is claiming he is,now, international class

We have started something like 12 different centre combination this year - very few have included our most experienced centre.
Why is that- not ability but personality

As an aside maybe some of our defensive problems have been this constant chopping and changing at centre.

by **rodders** Mon Dec 04, 2017 11:03 am

geoff999rugby wrote:
There is a defensive plan and it is a Kiss plan and it is crap. We play a soft drift defence that gives up big yardage very easily.

Agree with that but he did the same with Ireland if you recall the 2011 RWC defeat by Wales. He's a poor coach and in over his head, I'd say Schmidt was glad to be rid of him.

Bowe looked a bit lost in defense to be honest but would still pick him ahead of Cave if Marshall is out.

I think we are in serious trouble in Europe.

by marty2086 Mon Dec 04, 2017 2:48 pm

[quote="rodders"]

geoff999rugby wrote:
I think we are in serious trouble in Europe.

It all depends, after watching Quins against Sarries I think the games against them could go either way. If we play the same old defensive system then we're fooked even though I think our first choice front row takes them apart at the scrum.

Care has been kicking out of hand a bit recently and Quins got two tries from it yesterday, if we concede space out wide I think Care will be hitting the ball to his wingers and they'll stroll in. If we slide of tackles like we did against the Dragons, guys like Roberts will just run the defence

by geoff999rugby Mon Dec 04, 2017 4:02 pm

Marty

Just to be clear Rodders said that not me - that is not to say I disagree with him.
Other than I don't agree Bowe is better than Cave at 13 Very Happy

Read on the Telegraph that last year was out worst year in terms of tries conceded since the Celtic League/Pro n/Magners started
Also suggest that we will surpass that this year.
Given that we have had weaker teams that is a damning condemnation of our defence

Also over 90 points in three games against weak sides - I don't believe we have come anywhere remotely close to that at any time in our history

by geoff999rugby Mon Dec 04, 2017 4:04 pm

marty2086 wrote: Care has been kicking out of hand a bit recently and Quins got two tries from it yesterday, if we concede space out wide I think Care will be hitting the ball to his wingers and they'll stroll in. If we slide of tackles like we did against the Dragons, guys like Roberts will just run the defence

Seeing as we are very good at conceding soft yards, not providing guards at the breakdown and falling off tackles on the inside shoulder I can only conclude 3 pints minimum before kick off is required especially as I'll be at the match

by marty2086 Mon Dec 04, 2017 4:33 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:Marty

Just to be clear Rodders said that not me - that is not to say I disagree with him.
Other than I don't agree Bowe is better than Cave at 13

Read on the Telegraph that last year was out worst year in terms of tries conceded since the Celtic League/Pro n/Magners started
Also suggest that we will surpass that this year.
Given that we have had weaker teams that is a damning condemnation of our defence

Also over 90 points in three games against weak sides - I don't believe we have come anywhere remotely close to that at any time in our history

Not sure what happen Geoff, the rest got deleted somehow Doh

I think Cave is a more complete centre, Bowe runs some good lines though but didn't get much opportunity against Dragons, he and McCloskey do look like they don't communicate properly and it's leaving holes in the defence.

After 10 games in the league last season we conceded 153 points, we have already conceded 228 points this season

by Redman Mon Dec 04, 2017 6:54 pm

marty2086 wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:Marty

Just to be clear Rodders said that not me - that is not to say I disagree with him.
Other than I don't agree Bowe is better than Cave at 13

Read on the Telegraph that last year was out worst year in terms of tries conceded since the Celtic League/Pro n/Magners started
Also suggest that we will surpass that this year.
Given that we have had weaker teams that is a damning condemnation of our defence

Also over 90 points in three games against weak sides - I don't believe we have come anywhere remotely close to that at any time in our history

Not sure what happen Geoff, the rest got deleted somehow

I think Cave is a more complete centre, Bowe runs some good lines though but didn't get much opportunity against Dragons, he and McCloskey do look like they don't communicate properly and it's leaving holes in the defence.

After 10 games in the league last season we conceded 153 points, we have already conceded 228 points this season

Holy H*ll that's a dreadful stat. We've barely even played anyone good this season.

by Standulstermen Tue Dec 05, 2017 12:18 am

MrsP wrote:
Redman wrote:
The Great Aukster wrote:Cave simply is too slow to be a top 13. Maybe he tells it like it is but he is not playing 13 because he is too slow rather than as a result of what he said. Perhaps he is not playing 12 because of what he said - then again he was supposed to be injured wasn't he?

Too slow for international rugby sure, but he's been more than capable playing top standard rugby for us. He was part of our defense which Bell coached which was the best in the league. If he's on the long term injury list you'd expect we would have heard something. Has he played in the last 6 months?

Cave has started 4 matches this season and come off the bench twice, most recently against Benetton at Ravenhill.

And wasn't it him who quickly converted his own try in Italy earlier in the season?

He also showed he doesn’t Have the gas to defend the 13 channel against kings and zebre. He may be a better 13 than Bowe and he may do a decent job at 12 but I think he is done at the top end of pro Rugby. Doesn’t make him wrong about Kiss defensive system though. What this run has shown is Marshall is essential there

by Collapse2005 Tue Dec 05, 2017 9:16 am

Heard Jordi Murphy is going to Ulster. Is that confirmed?

by neilthom7 Tue Dec 05, 2017 9:25 am

The man who is really, really essential at 13 is starting to look more and more like he won't play again.
Has anyone heard anything about Payne? It all seems to have gone eerily quiet.
When we look at how we are performing we probably shouldn't forget that we have essentially lost Payne, Jackson, Olding and Pienaar this summer, that's a lot of talent not available.

by geoff999rugby Tue Dec 05, 2017 10:05 am

Marshall is essential at 13 because there is no real alternative
Payne is finished.
Cave is the best of the rest but past his best and not liked by Kiss
Bowe is never a 13, not now anyway
Nobody coming up who fills the roll (unless you move Stockdale there but Joe will block that )
Payne, Jackson, Olding and Pienaar this summer
and next summer
Bowe, Piatau and Cave
Following summer Trimble

Basically a set of backs of Gilroy, McCloskey, Marshall, Stockdale, Ludik
with cover by
Lyttle and Nelson and that is

NB: Inspite of that Bowe interview I have since checked and remain convinced Bowe will retire this coming summer.
It was just pap to keep a journo quite

by geoff999rugby Tue Dec 05, 2017 10:14 am

Collapse2005 wrote:Heard Jordi Murphy is going to Ulster. Is that confirmed?

Nothing official but here is the link to the article

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/european-cup/jordi-murphy-to-swap-leinster-for-ulster-next-season-1.3315629

Would be the first ever front line player moving from Leinster or Munster directly to Ulster.
Still wont be one born in south though Very Happy

He was a Catalonian for 9 years

In all seriousness there will be so many Leinster players here that he will feel at home.
Maybe we could get some more - in truth we need them

by marty2086 Tue Dec 05, 2017 10:23 am

The Payne situation is baffling, if it is what everyone claims it he should be back but the fact it keeps getting put back indicates something more serious

by geoff999rugby Tue Dec 05, 2017 10:39 am

At most he will play a couple games, ala the Ferris comeback, and then announce his retirement.
His CC is up this coming summer.

Still get headaches 6 months after last playing !

by marty2086 Tue Dec 05, 2017 11:39 am

That's what worries me geoff, if the injury was as described the headaches should have cleared up with treatment and some rehab unless he was half assing his rehab which I highly doubt

by marty2086 Tue Dec 05, 2017 11:39 am

Following reports that Jordi Murphy is to make the switch from Leinster to Ulster, RTÉ Sport now understands that a formal announcement on the move will be made before the end of the week.

by Collapse2005 Tue Dec 05, 2017 12:24 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:Heard Jordi Murphy is going to Ulster. Is that confirmed?

Nothing official but here is the link to the article

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/european-cup/jordi-murphy-to-swap-leinster-for-ulster-next-season-1.3315629

Would be the first ever front line player moving from Leinster or Munster directly to Ulster.
Still wont be one born in south though
He was a Catalonian for 9 years

In all seriousness there will be so many Leinster players here that he will feel at home.
Maybe we could get some more - in truth we need them

Its only a couple of hours up the road provided there is no border.

by thebandwagonsociety Tue Dec 05, 2017 12:59 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:Heard Jordi Murphy is going to Ulster. Is that confirmed?

Nothing official but here is the link to the article

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/european-cup/jordi-murphy-to-swap-leinster-for-ulster-next-season-1.3315629

Would be the first ever front line player moving from Leinster or Munster directly to Ulster.
Still wont be one born in south though
He was a Catalonian for 9 years

In all seriousness there will be so many Leinster players here that he will feel at home.
Maybe we could get some more - in truth we need them

Its only a couple of hours up the road provided there is no border.

It's a good signing, gives Henri some help, possibly aids getting Henderson into the lock position full time and once Coetzee is fit he can concentrate on ball carrying while Jordi rolls up the sleeves and does the dirty work.

A bit strange when you think about it. This time last year he was starting against NZ in the game that was to be a historic first win for Ireland. Gets injured during that epic encounter and not only loses the green jersey but the blue jersey as well.

Ulster a getting their hands on a class operator.

by The Great Aukster Tue Dec 05, 2017 2:23 pm

Great news about Jordi M, a clever and versatile player in the mould of Chris Henry but seven years younger.

Still think Ulster need a flyer at 7 - in the James Davies, Ollie Griffiths, Ellis Jenkins, or Justin Tipuric mould.

by **rodders** Tue Dec 05, 2017 3:58 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:Heard Jordi Murphy is going to Ulster. Is that confirmed?

Nothing official but here is the link to the article

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/european-cup/jordi-murphy-to-swap-leinster-for-ulster-next-season-1.3315629

Would be the first ever front line player moving from Leinster or Munster directly to Ulster.
Still wont be one born in south though
He was a Catalonian for 9 years

In all seriousness there will be so many Leinster players here that he will feel at home.
Maybe we could get some more - in truth we need them

Its only a couple of hours up the road provided there is no border.

As long as he has no animal produce or pharmaceuticals in his boot he should be fine.

Good signing and is a ready made replacement for Henry who is starting to wane.

To add to Auksters point I think it is a ball carrying back row we still need, we've never replaced Williams or Stevie Ferris and are overly reliant on Henderson and Mccloskey to get us on the front foot.

As good as Murphy is he won't help in this regard.

by marty2086 Tue Dec 05, 2017 4:23 pm

Murphy isn't a bad ball carrier, he carries well and while not the rampaging destructive type that Henderson, McCloskey or Coetzee are, he will gain yards and take some of the burden of other players.

by Hazel Sapling Tue Dec 05, 2017 5:32 pm

To avoid asking an Ulster questions in the rumour thread

What happened to Ah You that has caused him to regress so dramatically with Ulster vs the plaudits with Connacht? Marty Moore is an upgrade but surely Ah You was meant to be an answer for a ball carrier and destructive prop.

Cooper is now available in a public way. Ulster appear to have all the trappings to build a fantastic attacking side around a Cooney-Cooper-McCloskey axis. Is it a case of a lack of defensive leaders?

by **rodders** Tue Dec 05, 2017 5:35 pm

Hazel Sapling wrote:
What happened to Ah You that has caused him to regress so dramatically

He's bloody useless?

by geoff999rugby Tue Dec 05, 2017 5:40 pm

Hazel Sapling wrote:To avoid asking an Ulster questions in the rumour thread

What happened to Ah You that has caused him to regress so dramatically with Ulster vs the plaudits with Connacht? Marty Moore is an upgrade but surely Ah You was meant to be an answer for a ball carrier and destructive prop.

Cooper is now available in a public way. Ulster appear to have all the trappings to build a fantastic attacking side around a Cooney-Cooper-McCloskey axis. Is it a case of a lack of defensive leaders?

Big questions about his fitness when he came - showed last year.
He was in decline well before he joined Ulster.
Going into contact his ball retention has never been the best.

Having said that he slimed down in the summer and was looking better this year but now a finger injury has put him out
till the New Year.

You cannot build an attacking side when you have a weak set of forwards - the backs remain on the back foot.
We do lack defensive leaders - specifically a 13 to organise things (Payne is finished and cave in decline)
Our biggest defensive though is our head coach - someone should give Johnny Bell whatever he wants to come home

Moore, and if he comes Murphy, will be a much needed step up on what we have.

by Hazel Sapling Tue Dec 05, 2017 6:32 pm

What is the rule with Irish provinces competing for players?

Also would you look to someone like Scholes to come back? Allan looked decent for Edinburgh at 13 before he quit rugby after not being offered a contract.

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