Ulster Rugby 2017-18

by geoff999rugby Thu 12 Oct 2017, 2:35 pm

First topic message reminder :

Rory Best (hamstring)
Marcell Coetzee (knee)
Craig Gilroy (back)
Chris Henry (larynx)
Rob Lyttle (shoulder)
Al O'Connor (concussion)
Jared Payne (headaches)
Dave Shanahan (hamstring)
Nick Timoney (ankle)
Schalk van der Merwe (shoulder)

by Don Alfonso Tue 05 Dec 2017, 5:38 pm

Ah You was no great shakes for the majority of his time with Connacht. He looked handy the season they won the Pro12 but no more.

Provinces are allowed to outbid a central contract but not each other, is what I understand. Scholes looked best under us - hasn't looked as good for Edinburgh or Connacht.

by Redman Tue 05 Dec 2017, 6:37 pm

Hazel Sapling wrote:What is the rule with Irish provinces competing for players?

Also would you look to someone like Scholes to come back? Allan looked decent for Edinburgh at 13 before he quit rugby after not being offered a contract.

Has Scholes not signed for Connacht or did I imagine that?

by Pot Hale Tue 05 Dec 2017, 6:38 pm

Good signing for Ulster with Jordi Murphy confirmed on his move north next season.

by Hazel Sapling Tue 05 Dec 2017, 6:59 pm

Scholes has however I meant more as an Ulster product to return. I still can't believe Ulster did not make a big push for Allan to return but at the time centres did not seem like a big issue especially at 13.

Strange system. So they can outbid the IRFU but if a province were to offer say £200k to, for example, Conway, they can offer £200k as well and he gets to decide?

by thebandwagonsociety Tue 05 Dec 2017, 7:12 pm

Hazel Sapling wrote:Scholes has however I meant more as an Ulster product to return. I still can't believe Ulster did not make a big push for Allan to return but at the time centres did not seem like a big issue especially at 13.

Strange system. So they can outbid the IRFU but if a province were to offer say £200k to, for example, Conway, they can offer £200k as well and he gets to decide?

Something doesn't sound quite right there. Probably a province isn't allowed match or beat the current provinces offer. But then how does Cronin or Keatley or Henshaw move. They all must have received a bump in salary to transfer. Felix, Conway, Jordi moves were to get more regular first team games so there might have been a similar or slightly reduced contract from the other province but the move was to get games rather than cash in. I'm confused.

by marty2086 Wed 06 Dec 2017, 9:33 am

Ulster Rugby is pleased to announce that Ireland back row Jordi Murphy will join the Province next summer on a two-year deal.

There was significant competition to secure the services of Murphy, but the 26-year-old has agreed to move to Kingspan Stadium ahead of the 2018/19 season. The announcement follows last month's confirmation that Wasps prop Marty Moore will also join the Province.

Commenting on his impending move, Murphy said:

"It's been an incredibly hard decision to leave Leinster, where I have made some great friends and enjoyed some fantastic times, but I am excited by the prospect of moving north and linking up with some familiar faces.

"Having considered my options at length, I realise that this represents a great opportunity for me to challenge for a position at Ulster and hopefully become a more regular feature in the national set-up.

"Ulster is building a strong squad for next season and I'm really looking forward to the new challenge. However, I am fully focused on contributing as best I can for Leinster for the remainder of the current campaign."

Director of Rugby, Les Kiss, commented:

"Jordi has been on our radar for the past 12 months and it took a lot of hard work between his agent and Bryn (Cunningam, Operations Director, Ulster Rugby) to get this completed. Unsurprisingly, there was a lot of interest in Jordi and we are really pleased that he has chosen to ply his trade here in Belfast.

"The acquisition of Jordi for next season is great news for everyone connected with Ulster Rugby and I believe this move will greatly benefit both parties.

"He's an extremely talented player; an explosive runner and a nuisance at the breakdown, while his versatility allows him to play across the back row. At 26 years of age, we believe Jordi has the potential to play the best rugby of his career at Ulster and that is a hugely exciting prospect.

"As injuries are becoming increasingly common in the modern game, it's imperative that we continue to expand the playing resources we have available. With Marty (Moore) also on board, plus the return to fitness of Marcell Coetzee, we have added some much-needed depth to our pack for next season.

"The increased investment in our Academy forwards is starting to pay off and five of those in our current system - Nick Timoney, Adam McBurney, Aaron Hall, Greg Jones and Matthew Dalton - have played for the senior team already this season. That's another positive sign for the future of rugby in Ulster."

Murphy made his debut for Leinster against Glasgow in September 2011 and has accumulated 95 appearances for his native province.

He earned his first senior cap for Ireland as a second half replacement against England in the 2014 Six Nations Championship.

The following year was particularly memorable for Murphy as he played all five games during Ireland's title-winning Six Nations campaign, before earning a place in the 31-man squad for the 2015 Rugby World Cup. He also featured in every match during the 2016 Six Nations.

Murphy has made 18 Ireland appearances to date, with his most recent coming in the win versus Fiji last month.

by clivemcl Wed 06 Dec 2017, 9:49 am

Heck yea!!!
The tides are turning! Moore and Murphy?? Yahoo

(Still would be nice to produce some of our own at some point...)

by geoff999rugby Wed 06 Dec 2017, 9:55 am

I detect the influence of Jono Gibbes in the signing of Murphy and Moore.
We never have had experienced Leinster (or Munster) players joining us then two come along at once.

I don't think it is a coincidence
Now give us one of the LH's and one of the 10's and we will be well set.
PS a 13 would be useful but that's being greedy Run

by rapidsnowman Wed 06 Dec 2017, 10:16 am

Sign of the times; we are all happy to be getting the crumbs that fall from the rich man's table Sad

by marty2086 Wed 06 Dec 2017, 10:32 am

Im sure Gibbes played a role in getting Moore and Murphy in but Im sure the RWC and other circumstances helped too, Moore didn't really have another option in Ireland if he wants to go to Japan. For Murphy he could maybe move to Munster but could they match Ulster in wages?

by **rodders** Wed 06 Dec 2017, 10:49 am

geoff999rugby wrote:I detect the influence of Jono Gibbes in the signing of Murphy and Moore.
We never have had experienced Leinster (or Munster) players joining us then two come along at once.

I don't think it is a coincidence
Now give us one of the LH's and one of the 10's and we will be well set.

If Carbery won't come North what chance of getting Madigan?

by geoff999rugby Wed 06 Dec 2017, 11:10 am

Signed a 3 year contract with Bristol and on crazy money - no chance

by **rodders** Wed 06 Dec 2017, 11:32 am

geoff999rugby wrote:Signed a 3 year contract with Bristol and on crazy money - no chance

McKinley?

by marty2086 Wed 06 Dec 2017, 11:37 am

A NIQ for a few years is surely the solution though? That may put Cooper at the top of the wanted list if it is what is going to happen, the IQ options aren't great and I can't see Carberry leaving Leinster. He may want to play 10 but he's the pretender to Sextons crown and where better to learn and grow than at Leinster training with the man himself daily

by marty2086 Wed 06 Dec 2017, 11:37 am

rodders wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:Signed a 3 year contract with Bristol and on crazy money - no chance

McKinley?

He's NIQ now

by **rodders** Wed 06 Dec 2017, 11:39 am

marty2086 wrote:
rodders wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:Signed a 3 year contract with Bristol and on crazy money - no chance

McKinley?

He's NIQ now

Doh!

by geoff999rugby Wed 06 Dec 2017, 11:46 am

I see Les Kiss stated in the Jordi Murphy article

'plus the return to fitness of Marcell Coetzee' - what a load of cowpat.
At this stage we have absolutely no idea if he will return.
He certainly hasn't returned to fitness

by marty2086 Wed 06 Dec 2017, 11:56 am

rodders wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
rodders wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:Signed a 3 year contract with Bristol and on crazy money - no chance

McKinley?

He's NIQ now

Doh!

Like I said, the IQ options are slim. It would be interesting to know if contact was ever made with McKinley before he was capped since he's only on a one year deal with Treviso.

by the-goon Wed 06 Dec 2017, 12:04 pm

What's the latest with the trial? If /when Paddy and Stuart found innocent couldn't they simply come back into the fold? OR are you certain they will leave?

by geoff999rugby Wed 06 Dec 2017, 12:48 pm

Chances of coming back

Jackson 10-15% tops
Olding 0%

by thebandwagonsociety Wed 06 Dec 2017, 2:16 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:Chances of coming back

Jackson 10-15% tops
Olding 0%

Doesn't sound good.

by marty2086 Wed 06 Dec 2017, 2:37 pm

So next seasons squad could shape up something like below

If the IRFU don't manage to screw up resigning guys like Best and Henderson(and given what Im reading about the opening offer to Stander it's possible), resigning guys like Bowe and Cave could still be crucial given the lack of depth we could be left with in the backs. Guys like Owens and Busby could be in there but doubt we'll see them in an Ulster shirt again, Patterson will probably be the same.

1. McCall/VdM/Warwick
2. Best/Herring/Andrew/McBurney
3. Moore/Kane/Herbst/Ah You
4. Treadwell/O’Conner/Diack/Dalton/Browne
5. Henderson/Treadwell/O’Conner/Diack/Dalton/Browne
6. Murphy/Deysel/Rea/Diack/Ross
7. Reidy/Henry/Murphy/Ross/Hall
8. Coetzee/Murphy/Timoney/Reidy/Jones
9. Cooney/Marshall/Shanahan/Stewart/Cairns
10. ~~Jackson~~/Nelson/McPhillips/Herron
11. Stockdale/Gilroy/Trimble/Lyttle/Ludik/Bowe
12. McCloskey/Marshall/Cave/~~Olding~~
13. Marshall/Payne/Cave/Ludik/Stockdale/Bowe
14. Gilroy/Trimble/Bowe/Ludik
15. Ludik/Gilroy/Lyttle/Nelson/Stockdale

by geoff999rugby Wed 06 Dec 2017, 3:12 pm

I am guessing the ones in Black are the doubts because of injury and/or contracts.

If so I would say absolutely no chance Best is leaving
I would also be shocked if Ah You or Marshall went anywhere
Henderson will only go if Nucifora screws up - mind you he is well capable of that

Of the rest I would say they are all more likely to be leaving in one capacity or other
Coetzee - it is wing and pray time
Payne - it is wing and pray time + (I just cant believe it can happen - 6 months of headaches - what is the underlying cause of that ?)
Diack - has been unofficially reported he is off to Bristol
Cave - not liked, and rarely, picked by Kiss. If I was him he might as well go to England and get a few more pounds for a couple of years.
(One caveat is the fact we could be seriously short in the centre next year may keep him here)
Bowe - well I have been told he is retiring. He would have to accept a 60%-70% drop in wages and given his profile he could earn more in promotions and broadcasting

Personally would not include Ross, Cairns or Herron - like Owens and Busby not of the standard required.

Been saying all along Black is away but given vDM is less than impressive I have to wonder if he will get a new contract now
What I have seen/found out about Dalton makes me very hopeful
Browne, like Cave, seems to be persona non gratis - no idea why

Dunleavy - backrow
O'Hagan - Prop
Lowry - 10
are 3 players I would expect to make a breakthrough the end of this year beginning of next

by marty2086 Wed 06 Dec 2017, 3:44 pm

I included Best as a formality Fingers Crossed

Read this morning the IRFUs offer was €320k but he wants €350k so hopefully won't get messy but Nucifora seems to be wanting to use the RWC as an ace to force players hands to keep the value of the contracts down

Browne was one I was wondering about, maybe seen as too lightweight in the second row but wouldn't be a bad option in the backrow as cover at 6 as he is one who will be a pest at the breakdown

Ross is signed through to 2019 so unless they cut him early he should be there next season, hopefully as in case of emergency option and the young guys get preference

by geoff999rugby Wed 06 Dec 2017, 4:26 pm

That was my thinking Ross and Herron will be there I just see no advantage playing them in front of the kids.

Regarding Marshall he was only given a one year contract this summer gone, which is unusual.
My money would still be on him staying if only on a further one year extension

Word is R. Kearney and Best will be given 1 year extension to tie them over to the WC

by **rodders** Wed 06 Dec 2017, 5:05 pm

Geoff what is going on with Trimble?

It seems odd that he is being included on the bench and only being given less than 10 minutes in the last few games, which suggests he has fallen out of favour with the coaches.

It seems an odd way to treat one of Ulsters best players of modern times, unless he is injured.

by Artful_Dodger Wed 06 Dec 2017, 6:29 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:
Henderson will only go if Nucifora screws up - mind you he is well capable of that

The things is, according to some Stander and O'Mahony have only been offered something like 280,000 euro contracts compared to the 700,000 (judging by Zebo's deal in France) that they could get elsewhere. It is quite possible that they could make Henderson a similarly insulting offer.

by geoff999rugby Wed 06 Dec 2017, 6:45 pm

My guess is Henderson will be offered what I think is the top CC offer - €350k

However please note Heaslip and Sexton are on more like €500k
If I was Henderson I'd hold out for that, as should Furlong, and Murray, in 2019 when they will be looking for a CC.

Post WC Sexton, Murray, Furlong and Henderson are the most valuable players, in my view

The €280k you mention is probably the top wack Munster feel they can afford.
I would not consider that insulting, what is insulting is the IRFU not considering them for CCs

The IRFU, and Nucifora in particular, are playing a very dangerous game.
I have to wonder (given all bar Toners CC end in 2019) that the IRFU realise the game is up and they cannot keep top players in Ireland post WC.
The danger here is they could lose key players prior to the WC

by eirebilly Wed 06 Dec 2017, 7:22 pm

POM is on €400k and CJ was on €260K but upped in the latest offer to €280K. That is an insult when you consider what an injured Heaslip is on

Unless the IRFU tighten up, players like Henderson, POM and Stander will follow Zebo to get the money. Any side in the world would miss players like that in their squads.

I understand that the IRFU will never be able to pay the same money as the French but these players would be more likely to stay if given reasonable and market conform (in Ireland) wages. When you see an injured Heaslip on nearly twice as much money as Stander, you do have to agree with Stander that he can do better elsewhere for himself and his family.

I strongly disagree with certain players being treated differently. It could also be that I am a communist Wink

by geoff999rugby Wed 06 Dec 2017, 9:48 pm

Have to agree those figures look horrible.

If we lose one Nucifora should be publically castigated and told he is on notice
If we lose two he should be sacked
If we lose all 3 he should be publically hung, drawn and quartered !!!

As I say Henderson, Murray and Furlong should be saying we want what Heaslip and Sexton get
The backrowers have a harder path to follow, because of an excess of decent backrowers,
but matching POM's current salary is not unreasonable.

Lets do the maths POM extra 120 to keep him on his existing salary.
Stander extra 140 on what he gets.
Henderson roughly double what he currently gets.

So is an extra 500k euros worth keeping these three I say yes.
Especially as Bowe and Payne will not be renewed as it is.

As all bar Toner contract terminates in 2019 I say there should be no problem keeping Murray and Furlong on similar terms in 2019
This is because certain outstanding servants can be dropped from CCs - Heaslip, Earls, Kearney, one of Healy/McGrath, Best, SOB
In fact of current contract we will only have Toner and should only offer extended contracts to Henshaw, one of Healy/McGrath and Sexton in 2019 and POM now

Which all makies me thinks there is something more going on - the sums this coming summer simply doesn't make sense, a year from a WC and given all current contracts, bar 1, terminate in 2019.

by geoff999rugby Wed 06 Dec 2017, 9:52 pm

rodders wrote:Geoff what is going on with Trimble?

It seems odd that he is being included on the bench and only being given less than 10 minutes in the last few games, which suggests he has fallen out of favour with the coaches.

It seems an odd way to treat one of Ulsters best players of modern times, unless he is injured.

It is a funny one Rodders.

My take is he doesn't seem quite the same since coming back from that hand injury - not shinning in practise.
That's a feel though not anything I've heard

by marty2086 Thu 07 Dec 2017, 9:02 am

geoff999rugby wrote:
rodders wrote:Geoff what is going on with Trimble?

It seems odd that he is being included on the bench and only being given less than 10 minutes in the last few games, which suggests he has fallen out of favour with the coaches.

It seems an odd way to treat one of Ulsters best players of modern times, unless he is injured.

It is a funny one Rodders.

My take is he doesn't seem quite the same since coming back from that hand injury - not shinning in practise.
That's a feel though not anything I've heard

He was on the Hard Yards podcast, only read some of the text but seems to say himself he's not playing well and Joe has told him the same, first goal seems to be getting back in the Ulster team and hoping he has done what he did in the past and hit top form at the right time for the 6Ns

by marty2086 Thu 07 Dec 2017, 9:04 am

eirebilly wrote:POM is on €400k and CJ was on €260K but upped in the latest offer to €280K. That is an insult when you consider what an injured Heaslip is on

Unless the IRFU tighten up, players like Henderson, POM and Stander will follow Zebo to get the money. Any side in the world would miss players like that in their squads.

I understand that the IRFU will never be able to pay the same money as the French but these players would be more likely to stay if given reasonable and market conform (in Ireland) wages. When you see an injured Heaslip on nearly twice as much money as Stander, you do have to agree with Stander that he can do better elsewhere for himself and his family.

I strongly disagree with certain players being treated differently. It could also be that I am a communist

POM apparently isn't holding out for more money, his issue is said to be he only wants a one year deal but the IRFU offered a multi year contract. So would seem he is leaving Munster soon just whether its 2018 or 2019 it happens

by geoff999rugby Thu 07 Dec 2017, 9:46 am

As I said post WC many Irish players will leave and the policy of only picking home grown will collapse.

Where have you heard this Marty?
Maybe POM has got wind that a 1 year extension is what is being proposed for Kearney and Best

by marty2086 Thu 07 Dec 2017, 10:18 am

It was on the original SportsJoe article that included Standers figures, went back to get it and the article looks like it's been rewritten. That or Im imagining it Headscratch

by Don Alfonso Thu 07 Dec 2017, 12:57 pm

Listened to that The Left Wing podcast linked to in the Other Forum. Ferris fairly scathing (and entertainingly indiscreet). Thinks if the next five/six games don't go well, that might be it for Les. Also talk on the forum itself that Murphy and Moore might be coming in next season because they both played under Gibbes, and they have heard it might be him at the helm... Probably just wishful thinking, though.

by marty2086 Thu 07 Dec 2017, 1:49 pm

Ferris seemed to praise Kiss more than criticise him, seemed to be more critical of the club and players to me. Biggest criticism of Kiss seemed to be that fans want more honesty in interviews rather than sugar coatig everything

by geoff999rugby Thu 07 Dec 2017, 2:26 pm

Ferris laid into Kiss big time prior to the Dragons game.

by clivemcl Thu 07 Dec 2017, 5:00 pm

Interesting that in that podcast, Fitzgerald lauded Kiss as an excellent defensive coach. Headscratch

And Ferris putting his cards on the table with regards to McLaughlin. Effectively saying he hasn't rated anyone since, and that he shouldn't have been sacked (demoted).

by geoff999rugby Thu 07 Dec 2017, 10:37 pm

McLaughlin was an excellent coach but had two big failings.

No man management skills - he only survived in that regard because Muller was here to cover him.

He did not rotate (Kiss goes way too far the other way)
He stuck with the first XV with the result by April/May we were unable to raise our game.
After beating Munster in the QF he should have rested the first teamers as much as possible.
He didn't with the result we were a busted flush by the time we played Leinster in the Final - terrible mistake.
He also would not play the kids at any time.

by geoff999rugby Thu 07 Dec 2017, 10:38 pm

KotH - one of the good posters elsewhere who clearly has contacts says a NIQ 10 is signed, sealed, delivered.

Let the speculation begin.
That side is very hard to get rumours from, unlike the Humphreys era when it was a complete sieve

by Don Alfonso Thu 07 Dec 2017, 10:59 pm

Big name signing according to KOTH in the other place. Done and dusted. Someone else hinting at Patrick Lambie.

by Don Alfonso Thu 07 Dec 2017, 11:00 pm

Snap, Geoff! Didn't refresh my browser...

by marty2086 Thu 07 Dec 2017, 11:27 pm

Irish Times reporting that we are competing with Munster for Tiernan O'Halloran

by Standulstermen Fri 08 Dec 2017, 12:06 am

Is lambie not at Racing or is that a 1 year deal?

by carpet baboon Fri 08 Dec 2017, 8:37 am

marty2086 wrote:Irish Times reporting that we are competing with Munster for Tiernan O'Halloran

That would be a good signing

by geoff999rugby Fri 08 Dec 2017, 9:07 am

It would - as mentioned above, for various reasons, we could be short of good backs next year

by Don Alfonso Fri 08 Dec 2017, 11:27 am

Ulster A team to play Hartpury RFC, Saturday 9th December at Hartpury College, 2.30pm:

(1-8): Tommy O'Hagan, Adam McBurney, Tom O'Toole, Peter Browne, Matthew Dalton, Clive Ross, Aaron Hall, Greg Jones (C);
(9-15): Jonny Stewart, Johnny McPhillips, Rob Lyttle, Rory Butler, Callum Patterson, David Busby, Jack Owens.

Replacements: Zack McCall, Eric O'Sullivan, John McCusker, Marcus Rea, Aaron Cairns, Dave Shanahan, Angus Kernohan.

Now that's what an A team is supposed to be all about. Youth with a couple of journeymen.

by geoff999rugby Fri 08 Dec 2017, 12:38 pm

I was thinking exactly the same thing.

That starting XV has at least 8 excellent prospects and arguably 10.
Only Ross and Browne not for the future
Some decent prospects on the bench as well

by geoff999rugby Fri 08 Dec 2017, 12:39 pm

Standulstermen wrote:Is lambie not at Racing or is that a 1 year deal?

I think he has a 4 year deal so cant see that kite flying

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