Ulster Rugby 2017-18

First topic message reminder :

Rory Best (hamstring)
Marcell Coetzee (knee)
Craig Gilroy (back)
Chris Henry (larynx)
Rob Lyttle (shoulder)
Al O'Connor (concussion)
Jared Payne (headaches)
Dave Shanahan (hamstring)
Nick Timoney (ankle)
Schalk van der Merwe (shoulder)

Lastly

SH (need 4)
1st teamer - Cooney
Good backup - Marshall
Squad player - Shanahan
Good youngster - Stewart
Surplus - Cairns

Assessment - decent if not great. Hope O'Donnell in the subn Academy is pushed forward soon looks good

FH (need 4)
Good youngsters - Phillips, Lowry
Surplus - Herron

Assessment - A gapping hole we are a front line and a good backup short of the requirement

Putting the whole thing together which I will try to do as Colin and Pot suggested

Overall I would suggest we missing a front line LH, 2 front line backrowers, a front line FH and a backup FH.
Also short of 2 centres, preferably at least one good enough to start

That's 7 players - backrow we can cover as explained above, possibly one centre cover can be cobbled together by using Cave and Patterson

That leaves us with a LH - Dooley on a 1 year loan would solve (we have asked)
He wont come permanent Leinster will need him during the World Cup when Healy and McGrath are with Ireland
One year with us will do him, Leinster and Ulster a world of good
We can get a permanent NIQ LH in 2019 when Deysel goes

FH - Front line NIQ signing essential and if KotH is to be believed it is a done deal
      Backup I suggest Marsh - surely 2nd choice at Ulster is better than 4th choice at Leinster
      Backup centres - time to scour the World for useful players with Irish grannies

There are some positive things happening in the Academy for positions 1 to 10
However we really need some backs to emerge over the next 18 months

Having said all that the biggest change we need remains Kiss leaving.
Rumour doing the rounds that January results are important to him and that his job is on the line

geoff999rugby wrote:Putting the whole thing together which I will try to do as Colin and Pot suggested

Overall I would suggest we missing a front line LH, 2 front line backrowers, a front line FH and a backup FH.
Also short of 2 centres, preferably at least one good enough to start

That's 7 players - backrow we can cover as explained above, possibly one centre cover can be cobbled together by using Cave and Patterson

That leaves us with a LH - Dooley on a 1 year loan would solve (we have asked)
He wont come permanent Leinster will need him during the World Cup when Healy and McGrath are with Ireland
One year with us will do him, Leinster and Ulster a world of good
We can get a permanent NIQ LH in 2019 when Deysel goes

FH - Front line NIQ signing essential and if KotH is to be believed it is a done deal
      Backup I suggest Marsh - surely 2nd choice at Ulster is better than 4th choice at Leinster
      Backup centres - time to scour the World for useful players with Irish grannies

There are some positive things happening in the Academy for positions 1 to 10
However we really need some backs to emerge over the next 18 months

Having said all that the biggest change we need remains Kiss leaving.
Rumour doing the rounds that January results are important to him and that his job is on the line

This kind of assessment is exactly the sort of the 1 month rolling review that every professional club should have as a document (with some fancy graphics - no offence Geoff) and should be debated internally with all the relevant stake holders (DoR, Head Coach, whatever Bryn's title is, CEO, etc) and associated succession/development/disaster plans in place.

Odds of Ulster having anything close to this is minimal.

Thanks for putting it together Geoff, you should maintain it and put it out there every month for 606ers review. Would be interesting to see the trends.

Will do.

You really would hope that a professional club would do something similar to identify gaps and longer term issues

From the other site a little stat showing the value of a quality defensive coach

It was pointed out to me that in the first 12 months of Barakat's time in Ulster we conceded 29 tries in all competitive games, in the 12 months since Barakat left we have conceded 74 tries in competitive games.

In regards to the centres, has there been any talk of reaching out to Ian Whitten? useful squad player at centre if nothing else

geoff999rugby wrote:From the other site a little stat showing the value of a quality defensive coach

It was pointed out to me that in the first 12 months of Barakat's time in Ulster we conceded 29 tries in all competitive games, in the 12 months since Barakat left we have conceded 74 tries in competitive games.

Matt bloody Williams even knew the value. Was it peter sharp or peter grant we had as a defence coach at the start of his tenure and we didn’t replace him. Even back then he pointed out our defence went from 1st to 2nd bottom. We were bloody lucky Jonny Bell was a good’un too

neilthom7 wrote:In regards to the centres, has there been any talk of reaching out to Ian Whitten? useful squad player at centre if nothing else

I've been thinking of asking for some time.
I sit directly behind two of his very close relatives
Will brooch the question at the Munster game
Pretty certain the answer 'delight to play at Exeter and no interest in returning' though

Why would Whitten come back to Ulster?
- He's at a club that appreciate him and where he gets gametime
- He probably gets more money
- He's at a club that can win things
- He has nothing to gain by being based in Ireland

The Great Aukster wrote:Why would Whitten come back to Ulster?
- He's at a club that appreciate him and where he gets gametime
- He probably gets more money
- He's at a club that can win things
- He has nothing to gain by being based in Ireland

It's true that Exeter have been good to him and so I think it is very unlikely he would move but we really need centres who are Irish qualified so they should at least be trying.
He would get gametime now and could probably squeeze a fair bit out of Ulster money wise give the need for centres.

Ulster know exactly what Whitten can do, and he's another in the solid but unspectacular camp. That may be ok in the AP but it increasingly is not ok with the Irish provinces or Joe Schmidt. It would be better to invest in Bowe or Trimble as centre cover than recruit an expensive squad filler.
Ulster should be looking to a player like Rory O' Loughlin who at least has Test potential if they are offering a significant contract.

Shamelessly ripped from the other forum.  I'm assuming the Hume mentioned in the video is the one who plays for us.

Is that commentary by Father Dougal McGuire?

Careful Now!

Yes Hume is the sizeable 13. Aaron Hall also scores and Matt Dalton played as well as the two Ulster flyhalfs amongst a relatively large Ulster contingent.

With respect to Bowe and Trimble in the centres - both bad ideas and neither anywhere near as good as Whitten

Trimble hasn't played there in a decade and his shooting out of the line style of defence is hit and miss and would be cruelly exposed in the centre.
Also clearly in decline as a player.

Bowe probably wont be here next year anyway so the point is moot.
Also not a great defender.

13 is THE key player in the defence and neither has the experience in their declining years to do the job.

Whitten may not have the natural skill set of either but he is at the top of his game now and as a centre to consider
for next year miles ahead of both.

Again though almost certainly moot as happy at Exeter

Whitten would be mad to want to come back.

The BBC are reporting that Henderson and Stockdale are going to be rested for Munster. You really have to wonder which, if any, of these stretch of games we have been targeting. It's conceivable we could lose 5 on the bounce.

Connacht (a) - We were always going to lose with the team we put out, though the scoreline was a surprise
Munster (h) - A winnable game if we go all out for it. Munster off the back of that Leinster loss may play a strong side to try and make up points.
Leinster (a) - The less said about this one the better
La Rochelle (h) - Yes they've lost a few but won't want to lose out on top seeding spot for a home quarter
Wasps (a) - They will beat Quins and will be in a shootout with us for 2nd

(15-9): Charles Piutau; Craig Gilroy, Louis Ludik, Stuart McCloskey, Rob Lyttle; Christian Lealiifano, John Cooney;
(1-8): Kyle McCall, Rob Herring (captain), Rodney Ah You, Alan O'Connor, Kieran Treadwell, Greg Jones, Nick Timoney, Jean Deysel;
Replacements (16-23): Adam McBurney, Callum Black, Wiehahn Herbst, Robbie Diack, Matthew Rea, Paul Marshall, Johnny McPhillips, Andrew Trimble.

Munster: Simon Zebo; Calvin Nash, Keith Earls, Sammy Arnold, Alex Wootton; JJ Hanrahan, Duncan Williams; James Cronin, Niall Scannell, John Ryan; Darren O’Shea, Billy Holland (c); Tommy O’Donnell, Chris Cloete, Jack O’Donoghue.

Replacements: Kevin O’Byrne, Rory Loughman, Stephen Archer, Fineen Wycherley, Robin Copeland, James Hart, Bill Johnston, Ronan O’Mahony.

Given we put out such a weak team against Connacht - the subsequent resting of our best forward and our best back is complete and utter madness.

They should be playing in this game not against Connacht.
I'd rather ship 70 points against Connacht and beat Munster than ship 44 points against Connacht and lose to Munster which may well happen.

O look another centre pairing - I make that 14 and counting.,
Kiss is a complete clueless plank - I am growing to actually despise the idiot for what he is doing to my rugby club

OK, I'm back. Still in hospital ward, but it's free WIFI so why not take advantage.

I'm with geoff all the way. Our defence coach is crap, and it isn't just the fans saying this. Won't say who told me, but the players like LK as a person but don't rate him as a coach. It's a fairly good source, but it doesn't take a genius to work that out.

Ludik at 13 again.....what is he doing?

Stockdale is probably in the unofficial player management programme as he has played a lot and the 6N is looming?

Good to see Lyttle, Jones and Timoney start with McBurney, Rea and McPhillips on the bench. The more gametime these guys get the more Ulster will develop depth and finally have some succession planning.

The Great Aukster wrote:Stockdale is probably in the unofficial player management programme as he has played a lot and the 6N is looming?

Good to see Lyttle, Jones and Timoney start with McBurney, Rea and McPhillips on the bench. The more gametime these guys get the more Ulster will develop depth and finally have some succession planning.

Agreed. McBurney and McPhillips are promising players. A bit of wind in their sails would serve them well. If McBurney could rediscover his U20s form, he could be a real prospect at hooker. Ditto for McPhillips who’s shown glimpses at 10.

As I said there was nothing stopping Stockdale and Henderson playing in this match and not playing against Connacht.

That would have been the sensible thing to do.

Unfortunately Kiss doesn't do common sense

McPhillips has impressed but there is a better 10 just behind him, and possibly two.
Lowry looks class and Curtis also.

We have some very good half backs in the pipeline

MUNCH wrote:OK, I'm back. Still in hospital ward, but it's free WIFI so why not take advantage.

I'm with geoff all the way. Our defence coach is crap, and it isn't just the fans saying this. Won't say who told me, but the players like LK as a person but don't rate him as a coach. It's a fairly good source, but it doesn't take a genius to work that out.

That matches my impression.

Nice bloke - hopeless coach

I know ye Ulster lads have been giving Kiss a bit of a hard time but that is not a bad side today against Munster. You are not playing badly either.

Munster could, maybe should, also be a man down here after that tip tackle.

eirebilly wrote:I know ye Ulster lads have been giving Kiss a bit of a hard time but that is not a bad side today against Munster. You are not playing badly either.

Munster could, maybe should, also be a man down here after that tip tackle.

Pretty astounding that the ref didn't at least have another look at it.

If he had, we may have seen Munster down to 14.

Astonishing that he chose not to have a second look.

JJ having a shocker.

eirebilly wrote:If he had, we may have seen Munster down to 14.

Astonishing that he chose not to have a second look.

JJ having a shocker.

The ref is woeful, scary that his full time job is to develop refs when he can't spot neck rolls in front of him

Why oh why do Ulster keep competing at lineouts and allowing Munster to maul when it's so dominant?

Munster backline offside regularly at rucks - not being picked up.

JJ Hanrahan’s kicking abysmal.

Very clever by Williams.

McCall getting minced. This could get painful.

Even as a Munster fan I do have to say that Munster have had very much the rub of the green with the ref decisions.

Now the Penalty Try , that was deserved though.

Inevitable - Munster shove over the line. Penalty try.

Munster have not even had to play very well, its all about their set pieces. Ulster look absolutely devoid of ideas outside of giving the ball to Piatau...

Piutau caught twice - looks very sluggish.

Goes without saying but Henderson would have made a huge difference to this performance.

Amazing to see the Munster coaching staff. All communicating, all looking for opportunities.

eirebilly wrote:Munster have not even had to play very well, its all about their set pieces. Ulster look absolutely devoid of ideas outside of giving the ball to Piatau...

I disagree, there has been plenty of set moves but they are coming central and into a crowded area where Ulster will get little change from Munster

I think Ulsters rugby IQ at times is like that of schoolkids, all too often going through what they've been shown rather than playing whats in front of them. The lack of confidence can't help matters

Surely you take the points?

Like the look of Timoney - a battler and makes yards.

Gallagher is so reluctant to give Ulster penalties.

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