Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

[beninho]

First topic message reminder :

I think bailly does look a good prospect, but he is pretty raw. The spurs pairing is probably the best in tge league as a partnership. I think mendy looks an immense left back, alonso also good, I think rose is better then bertrand though, when fit. I remember a time when full backs had to defend!

[kwinigolfer]

Digs,
Citeh were destined to go down the drain last year until Toure got his YaYas out. They still have Fernandinho as a midfield hatchet presence - it'll be interesting to see how their team make-up changes, if at all, as the games start to pile up. Wouldn't doubt they'll win the Prem though, but they are doing well so far avoiding injuries; taxi squad excepted.

[Diggers]

Fernandihno isn't really a hatchet player Kwini, he's just a high energy, quality player. He's only 5 10", be a funny game when you bring in Brazilians to play your hard man role.

[super_realist]

He's not international material though - He shouldn't be good enough to play for England.

Can you name 11 that are?

Every England player that plays for England is good enough to play for England. They wouldn't play for Brazil, Argentina, France, Spain, Germany etc, but they are good enough to play for England, which is why England are so ordinary. There's no one better than the average players they have to pick from.

Please remember that England's standard is LOW, so there shouldn't really be an expression like "he shouldn't be good enough to play for England" He is, by definition, because England are a team where you shouldn't be remotely surprised who gets picked for them.

They are a team which picks Hart, statistically the worst and second worst keeper in Italy and England in the last two years.

[beninho]

I don't think henderson is any worse then banega, enzo perez or lucas biglia.

[beninho]

Fernandinho is a terrier, but also pretty good on the ball, that goal against the potters was a treat syrike. But most Brazilians are pretty hard, the south American leagues are rough from what ive seen.

[super_realist]

I don't think henderson is any worse then banega, enzo perez or lucas biglia.

If you're good enough to play for Man United or Liverpool (even after the weekend) then you're more than good enough to play for England.
Both Man United and Liverpool are far superior to England. So while Jones for example might not be a very good international footballer, he's clearly a good enough standard to play for a team with the expectations of England, if anything it's taking a step back for Jones, Henderson etc from their usual day job.

[raycastleunited]

He's not international material though - He shouldn't be good enough to play for England.

Can you name 11 that are?

Every England player that plays for England is good enough to play for England. They wouldn't play for Brazil, Argentina, France, Spain, Germany etc, but they are good enough to play for England, which is why England are so ordinary. There's no one better than the average players they have to pick from.

Please remember that England's standard is LOW, so there shouldn't really be an expression like "he shouldn't be good enough to play for England" He is, by definition, because England are a team where you shouldn't be remotely surprised who gets picked for them.

They are a team which picks Hart, statistically the worst and second worst keeper in Italy and England in the last two years.

If I was England manager, Henderson wouldn't be good enough to play for England. I'd pick myself if I had to.

[McLaren]

Henderson is like a worse version of Gareth Barry, in fact a similar British player was Barry Ferguson and Henderson is nowhere near as good as him.

[beninho]

There are a lot of people that have played in the premier league worse then Gareth Barry, he has the most appearances ever in the premier league. He is a great of english football.

Any way, Big sam to Everton? or do they go for a fancy foreign type. I would like Dyche to get teh job, he deserves a bigger club.

[kwinigolfer]

Not sure why Dyche would be interested - though agree he's a natural fit. But he can't score goals.
Hopefully Unsworth has the nous to sort his defence out, pension off Jags and Ashley Williams, build around Keane, pray that Coleman returns quickly to his best, gets Barkley playing for Everton instead of himself, and cuts his losses with some high-priced under-performers.
Everton has the nucleus of a very good team, if they'd only play as a team. Then attract a bigger name when Unsworth has done the dirty work.

[Diggers]

Henderson is a decent player, good energy, passes well and always committed. What I like is he always wants the ball, he was far from being Liverpools worst player against Spurs, in fact when they were getting back into the game most of the impetus was him driving them. He should make any England squad, Id hope he wasn't a first choice though.

[super_realist]

He's not international material though - He shouldn't be good enough to play for England.

Can you name 11 that are?

Every England player that plays for England is good enough to play for England. They wouldn't play for Brazil, Argentina, France, Spain, Germany etc, but they are good enough to play for England, which is why England are so ordinary. There's no one better than the average players they have to pick from.

Please remember that England's standard is LOW, so there shouldn't really be an expression like "he shouldn't be good enough to play for England" He is, by definition, because England are a team where you shouldn't be remotely surprised who gets picked for them.

They are a team which picks Hart, statistically the worst and second worst keeper in Italy and England in the last two years.

If I was England manager, Henderson wouldn't be good enough to play for England. I'd pick myself if I had to.

When did England reach a level where they could afford to be choosy? England don't have a level which they can aspire to pick players better than Henderson, there aren't any.

[beninho]

You never did give us your world eleven the other day super, just made a comment about the one picked. I'd love to see your selection and reasoning? As you are so up on centre midfielders from round the world at least.

[beninho]

Glad the big six have been put back in their box for a little while. Keeping some of tge vast amount of tv money spread eaually has kept the premier league pretty strong with strength in depth. Especially compared to other leagues.

[super_realist]

I didn't say I would Ben.
The point is that we constantly keep hearing that England have no expectations, and how everyone is now realistic that they are 3rd rate, then no time at all later, we hear how certain England players aren't good enough to play for such an average team, with low expectations.

By definition, that's saying that England ought to have a certain exalted standard. Well if Jones Henderson are good enough to play for their club sides, then clearly they are good enough to play for England, because in a Premier League standard, England are a Southampton or West Brom.

[beninho]

I dont understand how you have turned this into an england bashing thing. Most people have said henderson is a decent player, and he is in the team becausecwe have little else. He shouldn't be a first team player but he is because we are pretty scarce in centre mids. Livermore???!!!

The only bashing is from the blinkered man utd fan and yourself, and ive yet to gather if you have any knowledge about football past saying england are Poopie and overated.

Butland,walker, rose, cahill, stones, dier, henderson, sterling, ali, lallana, kane. That would be team.

[super_realist]

I'm not England bashing, I'm talking about peoples refuse to accept England are not at some lofty level, where they can claim that Jones/Henderson et al are not good enough for the team.

Clearly he's good enough for a team of the standard of England.

If Henderson is good enough for Liverpool, how on earth could you say he isn't of a calibre to be first team for England?

It doesn't really matter who you put in an England team, because not one of them is ever capable of reproducing their club form for their country consistently.
England are one of the most boring teams to watch, and with Pep Southgate in charge, they are hardly likely to get any better.

Arguing over who should be in the team is largely irrelevant, because year after year, they prove they are a dreadful team who simply can't hack tournament football.

[pedro]

So where’s the key super? Why can’t England do an Iceland or a Greece and actually produce decent results with mediocre player material? Is it just the wrong mediocre players? Or wrong mediocre managers? At least they did try with some top drawer managers (Sven, Capelli), but with limited success. Or is it, as Strachan would say, genetic?

[super_realist]

So where’s the key super? Why can’t England do an Iceland or a Greece and actually produce decent results with mediocre player material? Is it just the wrong mediocre players? Or wrong mediocre managers? At least they did try with some top drawer managers (Sven, Capelli), but with limited success. Or is it, as Strachan would say, genetic?

The main reason I see is that  England demonstrably don't have a team ethic, they never play as a team and they are like scared little headless chickens. Virtually every player in the team is fuelled by their own ego it seems (hence the absurd tv adverts). I'd say your average footballer is more intelligent than the English/British ones (as well as having more hunger) so is able to adapt and place media pressure behind them. Not to mention the EPL isn't really that transferable to International football. I genuinely think England would do no worse with a bunch of players from the Championship with the odd player like Kane/Dier involved.

A friend of mine has a famous footballing relation who has run football academies and training all over the country as well as being a club manager/pundit, and he says there are still massive factions and cliques within the England set up particularly along lines of race/club. It's not surprising they can't play well together when they don't even socialise and mix well.

Sven a top drawer manager? Hardly. Decent in the distant past and moderately successful, but not exactly top drawer.

Teams go through periods when they do well, and when they don't and there's nothing which says you should reach your previous heights. Sometimes other teams simply overtake you and that's clearly happened with England, and also with Scotland. Teams like Wales and Norn Irn (I actually saw the NI manager in my street yesterday, walking because he is banned from driving) are examples of teams who have risen to match England's level, and there are plenty who have surpassed them.

[McLaren]

Super

Are you sure you saw O'Neill? I don't think there are any Aberdeen or Celtic players from NI.

[Diggers]

Teams do have cyclic patterns, which is why England should keep trying to improve. There had clearly been massive progress at the youth levels, the last European team to have a year like England have had is Spain, just before their hot streak. Does that mean England will replicate that, probably not, but to only recognise negative events and to ignore clear progress would be nonsensical. Super, you said England fans would rather their team stay at home. That's weird, how can you improve on your weakness, which you are right, is currently tournament play, by not qualifying.
Team spirit can be found pretty quickly, what they really need is a settled playing style that gets the best out of the players they have...exactly what is happening at the other levels.

[Roller_Coaster]

It all washes through over time, the younger age groups are now seeing the success of an improved and consistent approach/pathway since the opening of St George's Park some 5 years ago. With the compression of age groups at a youth level that sounds about right to me. With the wider age range in the senior side (ie older players staying in the England setup for longer) I would expect it to be another 5 years possibly more before the impact flows in. One huge caveat is the lack of top flight experience the youngsters get through both the increased use of overseas players blocking experience at English club sides (and the issue about English talent not generally going abroad).

[Diggers]

True RC, though watching the League Cup last night there was quite a lot of young English talent playing. Man Utd had 2 or 3 really promising kids, the Arsenal lad looks like a player.
Ultimately if you are good enough you'll get the chances, if this crop of kids, and there are 70-80 of them across the squads, keep developing they will get some game time. Plus they are used to winning, when they look at the other international teams they shouldn't be over awed.

[Diggers]

Under 17's beat Brazil to make the final, star striker scores a hat trick!

[pedro]

Haven’t we got a few posters from around there?

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-berkshire-41756422

Besides the HIO it’s also pretty cool to hit a 174 yd pw. Even Kim jong-il would’ve been baffled.

[super_realist]

Super

Are you sure you saw O'Neill?  I don't think there are any Aberdeen or Celtic players from NI.

He lives in Edinburgh Mac.

[super_realist]

It's true that England are having success at the embryonic level, but history shows that virtually none of these players will make it through to the professional ranks at a high level.

It's certainly encouraging from an England point of view, but there is no guarantee this will have even the slightest effect on the Senior Team

[Roller_Coaster]

No, no guarantee whatsoever but an increased likelihood over the years following relative failure at the younger age levels. It will take time, and more time than the press and fans will tolerate, but progress nonetheless.

Now, if we can just stop the

Germans
Italians
Spanish
Brazilians
French
Portuguese
etc
etc
etc
Welsh
Northern Irish
Icelandic
etc
etc
Somalians
Andorrans

from continually improving too, we might make a quarter final

In 2034

[Diggers]

There is no history to look at, this level of talent across the English game at youth level is completely unprecedented. You can look, but you won't find a year that even remotely compares.
If you want a few examples of players already progressing, the under 20 World Cup captain (and the Euro under 17's) , Lewis Cook, is playing for Bournemouths first team. The star of our under 18's left after the group stages as he's in the Dortmund first team. Phil Foden, who oozes class, played for Man City pre season, he oozes class, Pep is raving about him.
Basically it's a numbers game, historically the youth talent pool has been weak, now it's arguably the strongest in the world. The reason we see so many good young German and Spanish kids is because of that reason, they have a lot of talent to choose from.
Super, rather than your idea of picking a side of Championship players, maybe Southgate should only pick his squad from players 25 or under?

[beninho]

On top of the youngsters, you have Pickford and Butland 23/24 regular premier league players. Stones 23 is a regular at Man City, Keane and Maguire both 24 regular premier league players, Winks and Alli both 21, Dier 23, sterling 22, Rashford 19, Kane 24. Add Chalobah at 22 , who I think looks a real prospect, Barkley Redmond and Ward Prowse all 22/23. There is a real basis of promising players all getting action in the premier league.

[Davie]

Haven’t we got a few posters from around there?

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-berkshire-41756422

Besides the HIO it’s also pretty cool to hit a 174 yd pw. Even Kim jong-il would’ve been baffled.

I see they have now corrected the story to "80-90 yards"

[raycastleunited]

There is no history to look at, this level of talent across the English game at youth level is completely unprecedented. You can look, but you won't find a year that even remotely compares.

That's not quite right Diggers.

1993.

England came 3rd in the U20 World Cup and then won the U18 European Championships.

The press went to town, saying the stars of the Euros (the strikers mainly) would go on to be the greatest England strikers of all time. Julian Joachim, Kevin Gallen, Robbie Fowler. All had decent careers, but none of them established themselves as internationals.

That Euro squad had some great players: Scholes, Sol Campbell, G Neville. But considering that generation came to its peak from 1998 - 2008 it didn't translate into senior success.

[raycastleunited]

Haven’t we got a few posters from around there?

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-berkshire-41756422

Besides the HIO it’s also pretty cool to hit a 174 yd pw. Even Kim jong-il would’ve been baffled.

I see they have now corrected the story to "80-90 yards"

2 golfers hole a wedge shot from 80 yards in a practice round. Definitely a story in the bar after the round, but hardly worthy of the BBC news.

[beninho]

Its bbc berkshire, makes a change from reporting crime in slough or teresa may went to maidenhead. Or sonething about farming.

[Diggers]

That's a good year for sure, but I dont think it compares with this year Ray. There is a much greater depth, and it's consistent. The squad that won the 2014 Under 17 Euros has grown together and many of those kids win the Under 20 World Cup this year.
I'd say the year you mention happened because of a few great young players, it was almost accidental. The success this year has built and built on the back of a well thought out youth system.
The structure now is completely different, far more like a continental model, it's meant to enable the kids to progress through the age groups because they know what's expected.
I fully accept it may come to nothing, and if it does then we fully deserve all the grief we will no doubt get. But there is no denying there are a lot of very good young players coming through.

[raycastleunited]

Look Digs, like you I want this to be a watershed moment - the first fruits of the FA's long term youth development strategy. I just don't want to get too excited yet.

There is a big jump from youth to senior football. Most premier league clubs will opt for experience every time. The outlook has become so ridiculously short term that managers don't have enough time to take a risk or longer term view. And historically, English players have no desire to play abroad. So if only a handful of these players get exposure to top flight football, the majority will end up in the 100mph hustle and bustle of the football league, where players still get booed for retaining possession instead of knocking it forward, which is hardly the environment to develop the skills to win a world cup. I'll take off my pessimist hat now

[Diggers]

I watch a lot of Championship football, it's definitely not as hustle and bustle as it used to be. Traditionally another issue was that players could only play 4 4 2. That history now, players throughout the league are used to playing flexible systems.
It is tough for Premieriership clubs to trust in youth, I'd like to see a first team quota but it won't happen. We just have to hope that these young kids are so good they force the issue. As Ben has pointed out, there are already a fair few young English players operating in the Premiership, we just need that number to keep growing.

[beninho]

But there is short termism in the premier league. Chalobah is playing for Watford and looks a good player, yet was sold by chelsea and barely given a chance. But Everton are bringing youngsters through, Davies looks good, Liverpool are giving opportunities, and Spurs who seem to be the standout. Was good to see Stoke, my second team, give Edwards a go the other week, a local lad, though they got humped at City and he got injured, its the first teenager they have brought through in years.

[kwinigolfer]

Which is the only club in the top two divisions of English football with no players in their squad from outside GB&I?

[Diggers]

Good one Kwini. Without any Google help, I'd take a punt on Burton. Can't have much cash to spend on those Johnny Foreigners!

[kwinigolfer]

Not Burton.

This club has one Old Boy as a regular in the England team - and, no, not Sunderland!

[beninho]

Bolton? They cant sign anyone, been under an embargo for years.

[kwinigolfer]

Not Bolton.
Don't think they have an alumnus in the current England squad either.

[Diggers]

Sheffield United, Kyle Walker?

[kwinigolfer]

That's a Wilder choice!

Often an attractive team to watch back in my all-our-yesterdays days!

[Diggers]

Not Bolton.
Don't think they have an alumnus in the current England squad either.

Mr Gary Cahill. Whether he should be a regular is a different story.

[kwinigolfer]

Not Bolton.
Don't think they have an alumnus in the current England squad either.

Mr Gary Cahill. Whether he should be a regular is a different story.

Quite right! On both counts.
Forgot that

[pedro]

Athletic Bilbao has a policy of only signing players from the basque country - and is one the few teams in La Liga who has never been relegated. Quite impressive.

Real Sociedad (San Sebastian) followed the same policy — until they signed John Aldridge..

[Diggers]

Sunderland have a policy of only signing utter dross. It's largely unsuccessful funnily enough.

[pedro]

Sunderland have a policy of only signing utter dross. It's largely unsuccessful funnily enough.

At least they stick to their policy. And if nothing else you can always say you support a club with integrity.

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