Wales and Scotland are big meanies - Discuss

First topic message reminder :

Oct 31, Tuesday morning, World Rugby plans to announce who is the recommended host country for RWC 2023. The recommendation is contained in a 220 page analysis report conducted by an independent firm of assessors who have pored through every detail of the three bids. Apparently they've looked at everything from travel times, to accommodation, stadia facilities, and how long the queues would be for the loo.

Bookies had Ireland as favourites but their odds have lengthened slightly. Bill Beaumont and Agustin Pichot were given the report last Friday. The full document will be released to media today Oct 31, to maintain transparency and integrity of the bid process.

All the WR unions, except the three bidders, will vote on who should get it on November 15. It's a secret ballot, but the likelihood of a vote going against the recommendation would cause more than a few raised eyebrows. It could still happen though.

There could be a lot of glum faces by midday in either Dublin, or Paris or Cape Town.

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Nov 15, Wednesday, World Rugby plans to announce who the World Rugby Council of Unions have voted in favour to be host country for RWC 2023.  The various unions can relay on a 220 page analysis report conducted by an independent firm of assessors who pored through every detail of the three bids. And they said that any of the three bidders could host the RWC but based on their scoring, their recommendation was South Africa.

Irelamd didn’t get the RWC.

Snot fair.

Scottrf wrote:We shall see if you have as long a memory about the way England voted...

I wonder does it have anything to do with the Tories jumping into bed with the DUP?

Anyway who cares, I will remember it.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Sin é wrote:

The only measure for the Scots was money and standing by the Welsh involvement in the flawed report - thats some level of base level thinking.

.

Can you explain why these motives are misplaced. And instead the 2 Unions mentioned should have voted for an inferior bid ?

By the power of deduction, one of them obviously did, as both voted for two separate bidders.

Sin é wrote:

munkian wrote:

Sin é wrote:

propdavid_london wrote:So, in round 1 there were 2 Africa votes for the French bid.  That's bucking the trend a bit too.

I don't think it is. SA has done nothing for rugby outside of SA, whereas some of those African countries would have been former French colonies.

Jebus Christ...

Remove all SA born players from the Pro14 and 6 Nations teams and revisit that statement you helmet.

The point was about developing rugby in other African countries. France does (like fighting their corner with World Rugby and sending coaches, money etc), South Africa doesn't and that is why African countries would vote for France, not South Africa.

Lets be honest ...its the sending money bit thats most likely to have swayed the voting.

The fact is the SA bid was the strongest, WR themslves had already decided this. Politics and money have stepped in and created exactly the situation Beaumont and co had been hoping to avoid ... financially driven voting and a whiff of corruption ( even if its just a perception ...its there).

As it is France will produce a good cup and it will be easy for fans to travel to etc so its not the biggest deal vreaker going. Im naturally suspcisious of the SA bid and the ability to really deliver on it, and for  there not to be political interference and corruption. Not that that wont happen to a lesser extent in France or Ireland of course.

All in France getting it isnt a bad thing. At least it might encvourage them to start taking the national game seriously for a while. Its more about the process and politics and what this highlights about the way WR votes are obtained thats the issue. And that exactly where the bleating from SA is coming from and is justified. The Unions reps have been bought and coerced into a backing a bid their own body didnt think was the best. That has to be a worry for all Unions who want a governing body that run for the benefit of the game.

Its nice to see the RFU not copping the blame for this fiasco for once.

SecretFly wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Sin é wrote:

The only measure for the Scots was money and standing by the Welsh involvement in the flawed report - thats some level of base level thinking.

.

Can you explain why these motives are misplaced. And instead the 2 Unions mentioned should have voted for an inferior bid ?

By the power of deduction, one of them obviously did, as both voted for two separate bidders.

So what have they done wrong? Both voted for the bid they believed would benefit them / rugby etc etc

Why should they have voted for Ireland?

RugbyFan100 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Sin é wrote:

The only measure for the Scots was money and standing by the Welsh involvement in the flawed report - thats some level of base level thinking.

.

Can you explain why these motives are misplaced. And instead the 2 Unions mentioned should have voted for an inferior bid ?

By the power of deduction, one of them obviously did, as both voted for two separate bidders.

So what have they done wrong? Both voted for the bid they believed would benefit them / rugby etc etc

Why should they have voted for Ireland?

Because we have some sort of 'Celtic tie', that only suits them when it suits them. As Secret Fly says, we have NO tie whatsoever. They've made that clear in the past. So why single out the Scots and Welsh? We have as much in common with the Irish as we have with, say, Greece or Germany or Norway.

Absolutely. As per normal, when failure haunts the Irish, they seem to be left astonished that anybody worldwide could not deem them the best at something. The sense of superiority is quite something. Deluded.

I have not read this thread but I haven't seen 1 person say, "we weren't the best bid. We didn't deserve to host this world cup. We need to go away and think about what we could have done and change that if we ever bid again."

Instead, it's backs to the wall "Who do we blame? Surely it's not our fault, it must be the Welsh and the Scot's betraying us, yes that's it....damn those Welsh and Scots for betraying us. It's their fault. It must be. It's never Ireland's fault."

Quite sad to see such an ingrained mentality.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Sin é wrote:

The only measure for the Scots was money and standing by the Welsh involvement in the flawed report - thats some level of base level thinking.

.

Can you explain why these motives are misplaced. And instead the 2 Unions mentioned should have voted for an inferior bid ?

By the power of deduction, one of them obviously did, as both voted for two separate bidders.

So what have they done wrong? Both voted for the bid they believed would benefit them / rugby etc etc

Why should they have voted for Ireland?

Nothing wrong with it - it will probably come back and bite the Scots though. If the SRU's demonstrates that money is everything, when it comes to renegotiating Johnny Grey or Stuart Hogg's next contract, they will take the lead from the SRU - i.e., their only loyalty will be how much money they can get. Expect to see all of them over in France in the near future.

RugbyFan100 wrote:Absolutely. As per normal, when failure haunts the Irish, they seem to be left astonished that anybody worldwide could not deem them the best at something. The sense of superiority is quite something. Deluded.

I have not read this thread but I haven't seen 1 person say, "we weren't the best bid. We didn't deserve to host this world cup. We need to go away and think about what we could have done and change that if we ever bid again."

Instead, it's backs to the wall "Who do we blame? Surely it's not our fault, it must be the Welsh and the Scot's betraying us, yes that's it....damn those Welsh and Scots for betraying us. It's their fault. It must be. It's never Ireland's fault."

Quite sad to see such an ingrained mentality.

Ireland blame opponent and ref when they lose 'shocker'

Bizarre. You think Gray and Hogg will base their contract decisions on the SRU's WC Host selection criteria?

RugbyFan100 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Sin é wrote:

The only measure for the Scots was money and standing by the Welsh involvement in the flawed report - thats some level of base level thinking.

.

Can you explain why these motives are misplaced. And instead the 2 Unions mentioned should have voted for an inferior bid ?

By the power of deduction, one of them obviously did, as both voted for two separate bidders.

So what have they done wrong? Both voted for the bid they believed would benefit them / rugby etc etc

Why should they have voted for Ireland?

Make the next Pro14 board meeting a bit more comfortable?

Sin é wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Sin é wrote:

The only measure for the Scots was money and standing by the Welsh involvement in the flawed report - thats some level of base level thinking.

.

Can you explain why these motives are misplaced. And instead the 2 Unions mentioned should have voted for an inferior bid ?

By the power of deduction, one of them obviously did, as both voted for two separate bidders.

So what have they done wrong? Both voted for the bid they believed would benefit them / rugby etc etc

Why should they have voted for Ireland?

Make the next Pro14 board meeting a bit more comfortable?

I should imagine it's always been uncomfortable. You think they all get along nicely?

Scottrf wrote:Bizarre. You think Gray and Hogg will base their contract decisions on the SRU's WC Host selection criteria?

Nope. They will base it on the SRU's stated aim that money is everything and loyalty or friendship count for nothing.

By the way, not just Gray or Hogg - every Scottish player will take that lesson. Its no surprise really that Scotland (and Wales) has difficulty retaining players.

Griff wrote:

Sin é wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Sin é wrote:

The only measure for the Scots was money and standing by the Welsh involvement in the flawed report - thats some level of base level thinking.

.

Can you explain why these motives are misplaced. And instead the 2 Unions mentioned should have voted for an inferior bid ?

By the power of deduction, one of them obviously did, as both voted for two separate bidders.

So what have they done wrong? Both voted for the bid they believed would benefit them / rugby etc etc

Why should they have voted for Ireland?

Make the next Pro14 board meeting a bit more comfortable?

I should imagine it's always been uncomfortable.  You think they all get along nicely?

Why in the name of god would they be uncomfortable? If that is the attitude, no wonder the League suffers so much.

If Ireland had any common sense, it would dump the lot of them and form a league with England.

Loyalty ? We don't 'owe' Ireland anything.

Try paying for project players without Welsh TV money.

munkian wrote:Loyalty ? We don't 'owe' Ireland anything.

Try paying for project players without Welsh TV money.

Thats funny now. That would probably pay for CJ Stander's bootlaces

If Ireland had any common sense, it would dump the lot of them and form a league with England.

Calm your horses! Don't drag us into this.....we're quite happily plodding away with our league thank you very much.

Doesn't bode well if Ireland couldn't get their celtish cousins, Wales and Scotland to give them a helping hand.

I am pleased England voted for Ireland though even though you lost.

Disappointed France got it because they only had it in 2007 even though I do believe they have the best infrastructure.

Sin é wrote:

munkian wrote:Loyalty ? We don't 'owe' Ireland anything.

Try paying for project players without Welsh TV money.

Thats funny now. That would probably pay for CJ Stander's bootlaces

You really are clueless.

4.5 million a year from Welsh tv compared to less than 1 million from RTE.

Sin é wrote:

Scottrf wrote:Bizarre. You think Gray and Hogg will base their contract decisions on the SRU's WC Host selection criteria?

Nope. They will base it on the SRU's stated aim that money is everything and loyalty or friendship count for nothing.

By the way, not just Gray or Hogg - every Scottish player will take that lesson. Its no surprise really that Scotland (and Wales) has difficulty retaining players.

So irrelevant. They will base it on club, prospects, salary, location like any other player. Not statements by their union.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Sin é wrote:

The only measure for the Scots was money and standing by the Welsh involvement in the flawed report - thats some level of base level thinking.

.

Can you explain why these motives are misplaced. And instead the 2 Unions mentioned should have voted for an inferior bid ?

By the power of deduction, one of them obviously did, as both voted for two separate bidders.

So what have they done wrong? Both voted for the bid they believed would benefit them / rugby etc etc

Why should they have voted for Ireland?

We'd like them to have voted for Ireland.  Is that as difficult for you to understand as you seem to think it's difficult for us to understand the path of money talking.

Of course money talks.  Money talked.  Money talked in the great European Club Rugby Epic too.  Money talks.  We know it.

But that doesn't change the fact that it's obvious - or should be bloody obvious - that we would have liked Scotland, Wales and indeed Italy to have voted for us.  It would have been something called 'Nice'.  It would have been something that Irish people would *ping* remember.  And I damn well assure you, that memory would have honourably repaid all of you at some stage down the line.  We have long memories.  We remember injustices from hundreds of years ago...but we also remember the English team coming over during the height of the war in the North.  And they got full respect shown them when they returned and stepped onto Croke Park some years ago.  We wanted them to know it was appreciated.  

It would have been 'Nice'.  Nice isn't a bad thing.  It's a good thing.  Ireland were deemed to have been well capable of hosting a World Cup.  That it wasn't nice means that it became something else.  Sour.  A sour taste.  That's life, as I've said earlier.  We're all human and we'll all move on... with the memories in our pockittses.

Deemed 'well capable' by whom ?

Sin é wrote:

munkian wrote:Loyalty ? We don't 'owe' Ireland anything.

Try paying for project players without Welsh TV money.

Thats funny now. That would probably pay for CJ Stander's bootlaces

Walk me through this one please. How much money do you think we're talking about here?

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Sin é wrote:

munkian wrote:Loyalty ? We don't 'owe' Ireland anything.

Try paying for project players without Welsh TV money.

Thats funny now. That would probably pay for CJ Stander's bootlaces

Walk me through this one please. How much money do you think we're talking about here?

They think that getting 10k fans at matches is worth more to the league than the 4.5 million that the welsh teams bring in through tv money

SecretFly wrote:
We'd like them to have voted for Ireland.  Is that as difficult for you to understand as you seem to think it's difficult for us to understand the path of money talking.

What is difficult for me to understand is the sense of "loyalty" and celtic brotherhood thing that seems to be prevalent here. Lots of things "would be nice" if they happenned. The reality is, Irish rugby fans are acting a little more hysterically than you suggest.

munkian wrote:Deemed 'well capable' by whom ?

World Rugby's report:

'any of the three candidates could host a successful Rugby World Cup'.

munkian wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Sin é wrote:

munkian wrote:Loyalty ? We don't 'owe' Ireland anything.

Try paying for project players without Welsh TV money.

Thats funny now. That would probably pay for CJ Stander's bootlaces

Walk me through this one please. How much money do you think we're talking about here?

They think that getting  10k fans at matches  is worth more to the league than the 4.5 million that the welsh teams bring in through tv money

I don't think they think that. I think they realise but are unable to accept or even talk about the fact that Welsh clubs bring in 3 times more tv revenue than the Irish do.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

If Ireland had any common sense, it would dump the lot of them and form a league with England.

Calm your horses! Don't drag us into this.....we're quite happily plodding away with our league thank you very much.

From what I recall, some of the English clubs (Bath for one) fancied having the Big 3 Irish clubs (and their fanbase) in a league during the Heineken Cup dispute (while the Welsh Regions were prostituting themselves to form an Anglo Welsh league).

IRFU stood by their celtic & Italian colleagues in Champs Cup discussions though.

munkian wrote:Deemed 'well capable' by whom ?

By Gareth Davies' 'Independent' adjudicator lot. All three were capable. But only one can host.

Well I can't speak for what the clubs thought at the time, but I personally would not welcome it and I can't imagine it would ever happen with the PL money shared by a set amount of clubs.

The last thing the Falcons need is another 3 teams coming in and beating them home and away...you lot stick with that lot.

All,

Apologies that Ireland didn’t get the world cup, it’s a shame, but this blaming of the Welsh & Scots is going a bit far.

The SRU has a list of objectives, all of which require funding, none of which are to get Ireland the world cup. Yes our countries are geographically close, but Scotland has had an affiliation with France for centuries (Auld Alliance), should we ignore that because they are slightly further away? Or because they play in a different league (despite playing in Europe with them). We play in the pro14 with South African teams as well, but we didn’t vote for them either, should they be massively upset by that?

I hope Ireland bid to host again in the near future and are successful as I have no doubt an Irish World Cup would be great, I’ve always enjoyed coming over for the 6 nations and club fixtures. For now though I hope you get past this feeling of being wronged and respect the decisions behind the votes.

EWT Spoons wrote:All,

Apologies that Ireland didn’t get the world cup, it’s a shame, but this blaming of the Welsh & Scots is going a bit far.

The SRU has a list of objectives, all of which require funding, none of which are to get Ireland the world cup.  Yes our countries are geographically close, but Scotland has had an affiliation with France for centuries (Auld Alliance), should we ignore that because they are slightly further away?  Or because they play in a different league (despite playing in Europe with them).  We play in the pro14 with South African teams as well, but we didn’t vote for them either, should they be massively upset by that?

I hope Ireland bid to host again in the near future and are successful as I have no doubt an Irish World Cup would be great, I’ve always enjoyed coming over for the 6 nations and club fixtures.  For now though I hope you get past this feeling of being wronged and respect the decisions behind the votes.

Well said

munkian wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Sin é wrote:

munkian wrote:Loyalty ? We don't 'owe' Ireland anything.

Try paying for project players without Welsh TV money.

Thats funny now. That would probably pay for CJ Stander's bootlaces

Walk me through this one please. How much money do you think we're talking about here?

They think that getting  10k fans at matches  is worth more to the league than the 4.5 million that the welsh teams bring in through tv money

If that 4.5m is true (I think it might not be the case anymore and when it did apply, the Welsh regions kept it all), that would work out at about 350K per team in the Pro12. For Munster to get a home HCup Semi was worth 800,000 (and that was after giving a cut to the IRFU).

RugbyFan100 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:
We'd like them to have voted for Ireland.  Is that as difficult for you to understand as you seem to think it's difficult for us to understand the path of money talking.

What is difficult for me to understand is the sense of "loyalty" and celtic brotherhood thing that seems to be prevalent here. Lots of things "would be nice" if they happenned. The reality is, Irish rugby fans are acting a little more hysterically than you suggest.

The truth is that some Welsh and Scots fans are probably stung by the actions of their Unions but feel compelled to stand up for themselves, their Unions and their Union's motivation in a debate with a heading about bidding and a World Cup. That's human, that's natural, that's life ...again.

By the way, in these threads you talk about the Heading mostly. I'm up to my neck in other work at the moment, my head is full of it, but when I post in this thread, the World Cup is numero uno topic to discuss.

Oh..and nice is still nice. and needs more outings in this greedy world.

Sin é wrote:

munkian wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Sin é wrote:

munkian wrote:Loyalty ? We don't 'owe' Ireland anything.

Try paying for project players without Welsh TV money.

Thats funny now. That would probably pay for CJ Stander's bootlaces

Walk me through this one please. How much money do you think we're talking about here?

They think that getting  10k fans at matches  is worth more to the league than the 4.5 million that the welsh teams bring in through tv money

If that 4.5m is true (I think it might not be the case anymore and when it did apply, the Welsh regions kept it all), that would work out at about 350K per team in the Pro12. For Munster to get a home HCup Semi was worth 800,000 (and that was after giving a cut to the IRFU).

Its a fact. RTE bring in bugger all compared to BBC Wales and S4C.

We kept ALL the 4.5 million ? Can you back this up with I dunno...proof ?

What the Hcup got to do with the Pro14 ? How does Munster getting a HCup semi bring in 800,000 to the league ?

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Well I can't speak for what the clubs thought at the time, but I personally would not welcome it and I can't imagine it would ever happen with the PL money shared by a set amount of clubs.

The last thing the Falcons need is another 3 teams coming in and beating them home and away...you lot stick with that lot.

The Irish teams would attract extra sponsorship and would increase the gates for English teams as there are so many Irish people living in the UK who would actually support their teams.

Top attendances for Champs Cup last season were Munster & Leinster.

Sin é wrote:

Scottrf wrote:Bizarre. You think Gray and Hogg will base their contract decisions on the SRU's WC Host selection criteria?

Nope. They will base it on the SRU's stated aim that money is everything and loyalty or friendship count for nothing.

By the way, not just Gray or Hogg - every Scottish player will take that lesson. Its no surprise really that Scotland (and Wales) has difficulty retaining players.

Based on what evidence???????????????????

The Scots are mostly still based in Scotland. We have a few near the end of their careers leaving, but if you look at the Scottish Squad 90% are based in Scotland.

they have already shown they are loyal - Hogg stayed at Glasgow, when he could have got a lot more money.

You do know that Scotland is a DIFFERENT country than Ireland don't you? Just checking as it seems you think they are the same one and as such we have to do what you say

Sin é wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Well I can't speak for what the clubs thought at the time, but I personally would not welcome it and I can't imagine it would ever happen with the PL money shared by a set amount of clubs.

The last thing the Falcons need is another 3 teams coming in and beating them home and away...you lot stick with that lot.

The Irish teams would attract extra sponsorship and would increase the gates for English teams as there are so many Irish people living in the UK who would actually support their teams.

Top attendances for Champs Cup last season were Munster & Leinster.

They don't want you. Stop trying to prostitute yourselves out. They'd need two 'divisions' in the league and none of the English clubs would vote for that and risk ending up in the 2nd tier. They wouldn't want to split their revenue with you. Etc., etc., etc. I think we've been here before.

munkian wrote:

Sin é wrote:

munkian wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Sin é wrote:

munkian wrote:Loyalty ? We don't 'owe' Ireland anything.

Try paying for project players without Welsh TV money.

Thats funny now. That would probably pay for CJ Stander's bootlaces

Walk me through this one please. How much money do you think we're talking about here?

They think that getting  10k fans at matches  is worth more to the league than the 4.5 million that the welsh teams bring in through tv money

If that 4.5m is true (I think it might not be the case anymore and when it did apply, the Welsh regions kept it all), that would work out at about 350K per team in the Pro12. For Munster to get a home HCup Semi was worth 800,000 (and that was after giving a cut to the IRFU).

Its a fact. RTE bring in bugger all compared to BBC Wales and S4C.

We kept ALL the 4.5 million ? Can you back this up with I  dunno...proof ?

What the Hcup got to do with the Pro14 ?  How does Munster getting a HCup semi bring in 800,000 to the league ?

RTE indeed brings in bugger all to the league since it doesn't broadcast the games. However, Sky does bring in money to the league and since so many of the Welsh games have to be on terrestrial tv in Wales, seriously affects the Sky income who would pay more if it was the sole broadcaster.

I'll look for it as soon as you can back up the claim that the BBC Wales pays 4.5m for broadcasting rights of Pro14. As far as I know, BBC NI also pays to broadcast Ulster's games which you don't seem to acount for.

You claimed that Welsh TV money paid for Ireland's project players - I'm claiming that it is far more likely that the Province's gate money is paying for the project players and gave you an example of what one gate can generate for Munster.

Griff wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Well I can't speak for what the clubs thought at the time, but I personally would not welcome it and I can't imagine it would ever happen with the PL money shared by a set amount of clubs.

The last thing the Falcons need is another 3 teams coming in and beating them home and away...you lot stick with that lot.

The Irish teams would attract extra sponsorship and would increase the gates for English teams as there are so many Irish people living in the UK who would actually support their teams.

Top attendances for Champs Cup last season were Munster & Leinster.

They don't want you. Stop trying to prostitute yourselves out. They'd need two 'divisions' in the league and none of the English clubs would vote for that and risk ending up in the 2nd tier. They wouldn't want to split their revenue with you. Etc., etc., etc. I think we've been here before.

They were the ones who wanted it. Irish Provinces said no (because of loyalty to their celtic PRO12 partners).

Sin é wrote:

Griff wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Well I can't speak for what the clubs thought at the time, but I personally would not welcome it and I can't imagine it would ever happen with the PL money shared by a set amount of clubs.

The last thing the Falcons need is another 3 teams coming in and beating them home and away...you lot stick with that lot.

The Irish teams would attract extra sponsorship and would increase the gates for English teams as there are so many Irish people living in the UK who would actually support their teams.

Top attendances for Champs Cup last season were Munster & Leinster.

They don't want you. Stop trying to prostitute yourselves out. They'd need two 'divisions' in the league and none of the English clubs would vote for that and risk ending up in the 2nd tier. They wouldn't want to split their revenue with you. Etc., etc., etc. I think we've been here before.

They were the ones who wanted it. Irish Provinces said no (because of loyalty to their celtic PRO12 partners).

I doubt that was the reason.

I would expect that it was not right for their own teams, including money

Very few business decisions are based just on loyalty -

R!skysports wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Griff wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Well I can't speak for what the clubs thought at the time, but I personally would not welcome it and I can't imagine it would ever happen with the PL money shared by a set amount of clubs.

The last thing the Falcons need is another 3 teams coming in and beating them home and away...you lot stick with that lot.

The Irish teams would attract extra sponsorship and would increase the gates for English teams as there are so many Irish people living in the UK who would actually support their teams.

Top attendances for Champs Cup last season were Munster & Leinster.

They don't want you. Stop trying to prostitute yourselves out. They'd need two 'divisions' in the league and none of the English clubs would vote for that and risk ending up in the 2nd tier. They wouldn't want to split their revenue with you. Etc., etc., etc. I think we've been here before.

They were the ones who wanted it. Irish Provinces said no (because of loyalty to their celtic PRO12 partners).

I doubt that was the reason.

I would expect that it was not right for their own teams, including money

Very few business decisions are based just on loyalty -

IRFU isn't a business. And I don't think they went near talking about money, but the big 3 of Irish rugby have huge fan bases and so would attract extra sponsorship. And by the way, IRFU fought tooth and nail to keep the Italians involved in pro rugby. The Welsh really wanted to ditch them and the Scots knew that their days would be numbered if they were ditched as being not competitive enough.

R!skysports wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Griff wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Well I can't speak for what the clubs thought at the time, but I personally would not welcome it and I can't imagine it would ever happen with the PL money shared by a set amount of clubs.

The last thing the Falcons need is another 3 teams coming in and beating them home and away...you lot stick with that lot.

The Irish teams would attract extra sponsorship and would increase the gates for English teams as there are so many Irish people living in the UK who would actually support their teams.

Top attendances for Champs Cup last season were Munster & Leinster.

They don't want you. Stop trying to prostitute yourselves out. They'd need two 'divisions' in the league and none of the English clubs would vote for that and risk ending up in the 2nd tier. They wouldn't want to split their revenue with you. Etc., etc., etc. I think we've been here before.

They were the ones who wanted it. Irish Provinces said no (because of loyalty to their celtic PRO12 partners).

I doubt that was the reason.

I would expect that it was not right for their own teams, including money

Very few business decisions are based just on loyalty -

On the contrary, loyalty is one of the hidden or not so hidden essentials of any joined up thinking business philosophy.  If you're Mercedes, you hope that once a buyer buys one of your products they stick with you for the rest of their lives.  You try to engender the emotion of loyalty and try to work rewarding of loyalty into your company program/philosophy/policy (Supermarket loyalty cards etc)

Indeed, Loyalty is about the only softer human-instinct emotion allowed into the grey clinical landscape of business - and not for human softness reasons but again, for bleak and greedy longview financial advantage.

munkian wrote:

Sin é wrote:

munkian wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Sin é wrote:

munkian wrote:Loyalty ? We don't 'owe' Ireland anything.

Try paying for project players without Welsh TV money.

Thats funny now. That would probably pay for CJ Stander's bootlaces

Walk me through this one please. How much money do you think we're talking about here?

They think that getting  10k fans at matches  is worth more to the league than the 4.5 million that the welsh teams bring in through tv money

If that 4.5m is true (I think it might not be the case anymore and when it did apply, the Welsh regions kept it all), that would work out at about 350K per team in the Pro12. For Munster to get a home HCup Semi was worth 800,000 (and that was after giving a cut to the IRFU).

Its a fact. RTE bring in bugger all compared to BBC Wales and S4C.

We kept ALL the 4.5 million ? Can you back this up with I  dunno...proof ?

What the Hcup got to do with the Pro14 ?  How does Munster getting a HCup semi bring in 800,000 to the league ?

The TV rights in the Republic of Ireland are owned by TG4, a niche Irish language station. TV rights in NI are held by BBC NI - value approx £1.1m for both. The figure of £4.5m from BBC Wales/S4C has been bandied about for a while although the exact figure is not known. But it is generally accepted that it is much greater than monies from the two Irish tv territories. Terrestrial TV incomes are split on a contribution ratio basis - thus WRU receives more proportionately from all terrestrial TV income than Ireland or Scotland - approx 65-70%. Italy does its own deals. The Sky contract - c. £5m a year is split amongst the three shareholders - WRU, IRFU, SRU - on a per team basis i.e. 40/40/20. In short, the WRU gets more income from PRO12 than the other unions because it brings in more terrestrial monies. This is evident from the Annual Reports issued by the WRU and IRFU whereby the WRU has had the same or more than the IRFU in Competition Income from the PRO12 and European competitions. Given that the Irish teams have generally done better overall than the Welsh regions in both comps, the WRU must be receiving a greater proportion of TV income. The new TV deal to be negotiated before season end may make things look a bit different. A move away from individual terrestrial deals to a common PPV deal for all territories will benefit the Scottish and Irish.

Sin é wrote:

munkian wrote:

Sin é wrote:

munkian wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Sin é wrote:

munkian wrote:Loyalty ? We don't 'owe' Ireland anything.

Try paying for project players without Welsh TV money.

Thats funny now. That would probably pay for CJ Stander's bootlaces

Walk me through this one please. How much money do you think we're talking about here?

They think that getting  10k fans at matches  is worth more to the league than the 4.5 million that the welsh teams bring in through tv money

If that 4.5m is true (I think it might not be the case anymore and when it did apply, the Welsh regions kept it all), that would work out at about 350K per team in the Pro12. For Munster to get a home HCup Semi was worth 800,000 (and that was after giving a cut to the IRFU).

Its a fact. RTE bring in bugger all compared to BBC Wales and S4C.

We kept ALL the 4.5 million ? Can you back this up with I  dunno...proof ?

What the Hcup got to do with the Pro14 ?  How does Munster getting a HCup semi bring in 800,000 to the league ?

RTE indeed brings in bugger all to the league since it doesn't broadcast the games. However, Sky does bring in money to the league and since so many of the Welsh games have to be on terrestrial tv in Wales, seriously affects the Sky income who would pay more if it was the sole broadcaster.

I'll look for it as soon as you can back up the claim that the BBC Wales pays 4.5m for broadcasting rights of Pro14. As far as I know, BBC NI also pays to broadcast Ulster's games which you don't seem to acount for.

You claimed that Welsh TV money paid for Ireland's project players - I'm claiming that it is far more likely that the Province's gate money is paying for the project players and gave you an example of what one gate can generate for Munster.

Fine, TG4 not RTE

BBC NI does pay to broadcast Ulster games, just no where near as much as BBC Wales/S3C. Same goes as Alba.

Sky may well be sole broadcasters next season as contracts are up for negotiation.

How come Scotland and Wales didn't vote for Ireland?

Stick together chaps.

Sky are on board because they consider Leinster and Munster as European sides (ie - sides that habitually have a large and sustained following in top end European competition - therefore they know those sides have a large dispersed following that are also interested in watching said teams progress through their 'domestic' league.  
Thus Sky have an interest in the Pro14 League for generating income, because advertising won't be wasted during breaks by poor bum to seat ratios.
Thus BBC Wales is free-to-air for Welsh people, in that the licence is compulsory anyway,
thus Sky would never have needed to get involved to get Welsh people covered on watching Welsh sides play their rugby in any Pro12/14 League.

Sky would not be there if there were no European Top quality sides in the Pro14, and Sky would not be there for a league that involved just Scottish, Italian and Welsh sides. My firm belief.

The Irish, with their four Provinces and Sky subscriptions both in UK territory and in Ireland,  pay their bloody share of anything bloody Pro14 earns in any bloody year.  ...in a nice unthreatening stereotypical Irish smiley drunken way of course.....  

TightHEAD wrote:How come Scotland and Wales didn't vote for Ireland?

Stick together chaps.

Like oil and water, we always do....

[quote="munkian"]

Sin é wrote:

munkian wrote:

Sin é wrote:

munkian wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Sin é wrote:

munkian wrote:Loyalty ? We don't 'owe' Ireland anything.

Try paying for project players without Welsh TV money.

Thats funny now. That would probably pay for CJ Stander's bootlaces

Walk me through this one please. How much money do you think we're talking about here?

They think that getting  10k fans at matches  is worth more to the league than the 4.5 million that the welsh teams bring in through tv money

If that 4.5m is true (I think it might not be the case anymore and when it did apply, the Welsh regions kept it all), that would work out at about 350K per team in the Pro12. For Munster to get a home HCup Semi was worth 800,000 (and that was after giving a cut to the IRFU).

Its a fact. RTE bring in bugger all compared to BBC Wales and S4C.

We kept ALL the 4.5 million ? Can you back this up with I  dunno...proof ?

What the Hcup got to do with the Pro14 ?  How does Munster getting a HCup semi bring in 800,000 to the league ?

RTE indeed brings in bugger all to the league since it doesn't broadcast the games. However, Sky does bring in money to the league and since so many of the Welsh games have to be on terrestrial tv in Wales, seriously affects the Sky income who would pay more if it was the sole broadcaster.

I'll look for it as soon as you can back up the claim that the BBC Wales pays 4.5m for broadcasting rights of Pro14. As far as I know, BBC NI also pays to broadcast Ulster's games which you don't seem to acount for.

You claimed that Welsh TV money paid for Ireland's project players - I'm claiming that it is far more likely that the Province's gate money is paying for the project players and gave you an example of what one gate can generate for Munster.



Fine, TG4 not RTE

BBC NI does pay to broadcast Ulster games, just no where near as much as BBC Wales/S3C. Same goes as Alba.

Sky may well be sole broadcasters next season as contracts are up for negotiation.

Of course we could bang on about the Guinness sponsorship as well which everyone benefits from (including BBC Wales), not to mention basing the PRO14 in Ireland so that the other Celtic nations can benefit from the the tax free status for sporting organisations that is in Ireland.

Sin é wrote:

munkian wrote:

Sin é wrote:

munkian wrote:

Sin é wrote:

munkian wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Sin é wrote:

munkian wrote:Loyalty ? We don't 'owe' Ireland anything.

Try paying for project players without Welsh TV money.

Thats funny now. That would probably pay for CJ Stander's bootlaces

Walk me through this one please. How much money do you think we're talking about here?

They think that getting  10k fans at matches  is worth more to the league than the 4.5 million that the welsh teams bring in through tv money

If that 4.5m is true (I think it might not be the case anymore and when it did apply, the Welsh regions kept it all), that would work out at about 350K per team in the Pro12. For Munster to get a home HCup Semi was worth 800,000 (and that was after giving a cut to the IRFU).

Its a fact. RTE bring in bugger all compared to BBC Wales and S4C.

We kept ALL the 4.5 million ? Can you back this up with I  dunno...proof ?

What the Hcup got to do with the Pro14 ?  How does Munster getting a HCup semi bring in 800,000 to the league ?

RTE indeed brings in bugger all to the league since it doesn't broadcast the games. However, Sky does bring in money to the league and since so many of the Welsh games have to be on terrestrial tv in Wales, seriously affects the Sky income who would pay more if it was the sole broadcaster.

I'll look for it as soon as you can back up the claim that the BBC Wales pays 4.5m for broadcasting rights of Pro14. As far as I know, BBC NI also pays to broadcast Ulster's games which you don't seem to acount for.

You claimed that Welsh TV money paid for Ireland's project players - I'm claiming that it is far more likely that the Province's gate money is paying for the project players and gave you an example of what one gate can generate for Munster.



Fine, TG4 not RTE

BBC NI does pay to broadcast Ulster games, just no where near as much as BBC Wales/S3C. Same goes as Alba.

Sky may well be sole broadcasters next season as contracts are up for negotiation.

Of course we could bang on about the Guinness sponsorship as well which everyone benefits from (including BBC Wales), not to mention basing the PRO14 in Ireland so that the other Celtic nations can benefit from the the tax free status for sporting organisations that is in Ireland.

Guinness, owned by Diageo, headquartered in London? Yes, thank you England for your sponsorship.

Lets assume that Welsh TV hands £350,000 a year to the other teams in the league
Lets also assume the Irish teams average a gate of 5000 more than the Welsh teams (it is more than that)
So at £20 a head we are talking 5000 x 20 x 10 = 1 million a year.

So gate money is far more important to Irish teams than Welsh TV money.
This does not even take into account that the figure of £350,000 is offset, to some extent, by the Irish TV money - say £100,000 for every team in the Pro14.
Lastly would Sky, or Guinness, even be interested in the Pro14 without the Irish - don't think so