PGA Tour: Time to Take a Break: Notes from the Ballwasher

First topic message reminder :

1).Just a few more rounds beside the seaside on Georgia's Golden Isles this week and the pros can take a seven-week break, eight if they're not Tournament Champions, even longer for those who don't fancy various West Coast events. Most will rest, practice, review the year just gone by with their "team" and plan for the year ahead.
Some will be so exhausted from the exertions of the past season that they'll be globe-trotting for recuperative guaranteed appearance and/or prize money at exotic locations around the world.

2).I really enjoy watching the Mayakoba action, the course seems to improve every year and the field ain't bad either. Patton Kizzire has a southerner's good ole boy, laconic air about him, but no-one really put pressure on him last weekend and he was a deserving winner.
Like his in-form southern compadre, Chesson Hadley, Kizzire could use getting a move on though. No anti-American sentiment here, but both have bizarre names and tortoise-like pace of play, more Henrik or Bernhard, Ken or Nick, than Rickie Fowler, for instance, who looked beyond irritated as he was grouped in the final threesome and seemed to have to wait on every shot.

3).A landmark stat from last week as Alex Cejka followed up his play-off defeat in Las Vegas with a T9 in Mexico and so earned consecutive top ten finishes for the first time in 359 career Tour starts. And, so doing, launches himself to the top of the all-important reshuffle ranking.

4).Mildly promising performances at Mayakoba for Knox and McDowell, each playing a course where they've had success before. Knox earned just his second Top Ten finish all year, while McDowell looked much more confident to my untrained eye, despite a T34 result. Both play again this week, where each has played well in the past. Luke Donald also makes an appearance, just down the coast from his happy hunting ground of Hilton Head Island.

5).Congratulations to Shotrock and his fellow members @ Aronimink in Philadelphia on securing the 2020 LPGA Championship and 2027 PGA Championship. Justin Rose has won twice in Philly but imagine he'll be relaxing his way towards Grayson Murray's irrelevant age by 2027. Mixed thoughts about this Aronimink announcement though, good for them in securing more major championships, but you'd imagine it rather shuts out the Philadelphia market from further PGA Tour events.

6).Presumably the 2027 PGA will be contested in May; the story seemed to be that one reason the PGA was moving to May was to bring the Championship to more southern courses - not so far, although it WILL be at Kiawah in 2020.

7).The finale of the Champions Tour season was rather anticlimactic, with the tournament, and Charles Schwab Cup winner being Kevin Sutherland. Somewhat of a curiosity is that this is the first official stroke-play win of Sutherland's career, though he did lose three PGA Tour play-offs. His solitary Tour win was at the WGC-MatchPlay in 2002 - he shot the first 59 on the Champions Tour, in 2014, on course for a 58 but bogeyed his final hole at Enjoie.
Bernhard Langer will merely have to be content with his seven wins, and $3M in prizemoney, bringing his Champions Tour career earnings to $24.6M - somewhat better than my pension plan and he's still going strong at the age of 60.

8).princedrac noted that this week's RSM Classic only offers 30 owgr points to the winner. Sea Island, Georgia, looks one of the most beautiful areas the PGA Tour visits; there'll be birdies galore but no doubt even more stunning TV images of the area's wildlife.
Those who live in the area have a good record on the 2 x courses (Seaside & Plantation) on Sea Island, including Bill Haas, Webb Simpson, Horschel, Kirk and Kisner among the locals who have won or runnered up and imagine we'll see more of the same this week. Snedeker is back from a 4+ month absence, and Kuchar is also in a field that looks stronger than its official rating. Scott Brown and Charlie Howell are others in form and hopefully Brown can break my dreadful recent trot of form in the crucially important one-and-done game I have fun with.

We'll follow web.com and Champions Tour Q-Schools (Peter Baker, Jamie Kingston & M-A Martin competing in first stage), but this ballwasher has pretty much dried up for the year.
Happy Thanksgiving for next week for all those celebrating in Missouri, Houston, Philadelphia, Cape Cod, Pennsylvania, etc, etc. Stuff the turkey.

Good points Geoff. The longer hitter will always have an advantage (as long as long is also straight), but the equipment has certainly made many of the hazards off the tee irrelevant.

Then make new hazards by growing the rough and narrow the fairway.

I for one (as a fractional owner of a course that will be hosting a big time tournament) don't want them to have to plant/grow rough in existing fairway. Pain in the butt and not cheap.

You don't have to plant anything, you just let it grow and shape it. Money isn't really an issue anyway. You get money to host most of the time and the PGA or whoever also stipulate how the course is set up, so if they want you to grow the grass, you grow it.

Failing that on problem holes you could just introduce some lateral OB. A few stakes is all you need and can be whipped out when the tournament is over. You could also introduce some local rules such as where you get relief.

There's plenty solutions to this. Smaller greens would be another option, not to mention the money you'd save on maintenance. Tougher pins, deeper bunkers/steeper faces, narrower tees, even build a few tees in positions which change the shape of the hole.

I'm not really buying Ogilvy's notion that we amateurs and pro's play the same game, we don't at all, just like we don't play the same game as professional footballers or tennis players with their linesmen, hawkeye, video replays etc.
We don't have thousands of people to look for our ball, a referee, rules official, stadiums to give us dodgy relief,  caddie etc.

Media seems to rely on Ogilvy's opinions about 75% of the time they quote anyone, especially on course design, technology, etc. Probably because he's about the most articulate and interesting - all his press conferences and articles seem to amount to a lifelong audition for journalism and the TV booth.

Simply not that simple Super.

At our course (virtually every US course that hosts a tournament?) the fairway grass is different than the grass used for the rough. So I suppose you could let the fairway grass grow in but I wonder how that would look and play?

The PGA (can't speak to the USGA) goes through a pretty extensive review of your current setup (fairway width, green size, bunker size and location and conditioning) and then accepts/rejects it as is or with upcoming planned changes. I haven't experienced them "stipulating" changes, but they certainly control where the tees and pins are set for each day.

Reduce green size for a weekend of play? No thanks! Massive expense to reduce and then enlarge again.

Interesting idea, however, to add some lateral internal OBs.

Surely any grass at a higher cut would lower the distance a ball can run regardless of whether it's the same as the fairway or not?

You could also cut from green to tee like Augusta, perhaps not cutting the fairway quite as short as before too.

Not sure about the PGA, but the R&A send out people to all the courses telling them how to set it up for The Open, pretty sure the European Tour do too, they even put in their own agronomists to determine how the grass should be grown/cut and what type of grass is used. They also stipulate the order the course is played in, for example some on the Open rota are not played in their regulation holes and greens. Kingsbarns for example in the recent Womens British Open and there's at least 2 on The Open which don't play from the normal 1-18. The R&A also demanded changes to TOC for the last Open.

I wasn't talking about reducing the size of greens or deepening bunkers for a week, I was talking long term if they think that the hazards of a course are no longer in action.

Growing fairway cut to rough height and then Mowing it down is not a quick process. It takes a good month to grow and then 6 weeks to cut it down. Because you don't want to scalp the grass, you want to trim it slowy.

That's 2.5 months that you are jumping through hoops for the professionals. Thats a pretty good chunk of the prime golfing season in Philadelphia (and most USA locations) where there isn't much golf from November through April.

Some fairway grasses doesn't make good turf for rough and vice versa.

I like supers ideas and would like to add growing the rough around the greens and introducing more fairway bunkers at 300-ish yds, even the ones in the middle of the fairway. The tournament organisers can then decide whether or bot to bring them into play, by moving the tee from day to day, depending on wind direction.

GPB wrote:Growing fairway cut to rough height and then Mowing it down is not a quick process.  It takes a good month to grow and then 6 weeks to cut it down.  Because you don't want to scalp the grass, you want to trim it slowy.

That's 2.5 months that you are jumping through hoops for the professionals.  Thats a pretty good chunk of the prime golfing season in Philadelphia (and most USA locations) where there isn't much golf from November through April.

Some fairway grasses doesn't make good turf for rough and vice versa.

I know that, but like I said courses have ages to prepare. TOC for example is shut about 3 months prior to The Open, as for cutting it down after, well big deal, it's not in play for the majority of members anyway.

So if your course is one on a tournament rota, you're already used to it being shut, and probably have another to make up for it. .

The grass doesn't have to create a bad lie it simply has to stop balls rolling as far.

You could also plant things like heather, gorse, broom etc.

You could also heavily water landing areas to make it softer and stop the ball rolling.

You could also do things like limit the length of a driver if you had to get into the equipment.

I simply don't see a reason to change the ball.

Adding fairway bunkers is not cheap.

The easiest fix to length is moving the tees back. But that's simply not practical for many courses where there isn't room.

If 400 yards becomes the norm for the touring professionals, and you want to host a tournament, realize that many of the holes with hazards off the tee will become simply irrelevant for that weekend. If, however, you want to re-route the course for that weekend go crazy.

Nothing wrong with that, but hardly the way the designer envisioned the hole to be played.

An example of a great course and a great hole that plays well for mortals is the 7th hole at Pine Valley. (Par 5 "Hell's half acre") There's a waste area 290 yards out from the furthest tee. That waste area is 130 yards long, so (today at least) impossible to drive over.  

Today's touring professionals would hit 3 wood, and then a fairway wood to green side (or perhaps on the green) which is elevated and protected by a waste area as well. Many would choose to lay up as well (like the 15th at Augusta National).

It's not especially expensive SR. Most courses have their own turf nurseries and I've seen a revetted bunker dug out and built to a good standard in a day, two days max. It can be in play in no time.

A tee however takes a lot longer to bed in and become playable.

Who cares what the original designer envisaged? He didn't envisage players being in good condition to be able to hit it even 250 and probably assumed hickory shafts would be used. He probably never envisaged backspin, proper grooves, rubber grips,, cavity backs, or any of the advancements we have had since the 1950's.

I like the idea of the 7th at Pine Valley and that's the sort of restrictions I'd like to see.

Many courses like TOC are not only out of date now, but have been since steel shafts and metal woods have been around. So this is hardly a modern phenomenon.

Again, 2.5 months is a good chunk of prime golf season for many US Golf Courses. Maybe some member are willing to make that sacrifices, but I know the membership at my old course gets upset when the course hosts a one day interclub tournament once every 8 years.

Super

Long rough along tight fairways and around the greens would make for some pretty boring (as if watching golf wasn't painful enough) viewing.

Why would it be boring Mac? How would it be any more boring than watching long drives and a flick to the green? Perhaps we might see a bit more course management and shot making? Never thought of that? It's risk reward too, big pay off if you go for it and succeed, not so much if you end up in longer grass. Alternatively laying up leaves a longer shot into the green. That's already 100% more interesting because it offers more than the previous option.

A lateral OB, or narrower fairway might make it a bit more interesting and tactical than just smashing the ball don't you think, GPB, yes 2.5 months is a long time, and I hate the disruption, but no one forces you to be a member, and whether they change the ball or not, you're still going to have a long disruption due to putting up/taking down stands and course presentation. You'll probably be off the course for at least a month before it.

Whilst like I said, the rough that could be grown is out of reach for most golfers, so who cares if it's a little scruffy as they get it back to normal length over a few weeks?

I don't know why any course would want to host a PGA/USGA event (other than for the money and "prestige"). I used play regularly at Bethpage and when the tour was there for the Open and the Barclays all five courses were closed for a few weeks and the four courses other than the Black all suffered damage from practice areas, hospitality and concession tents, temporary roads etc. - resulting in a few temporary greens and a number of par 5s and par 4s being played as par 3s when the courses re-opened. Perhaps I'm just being selfish.

RVC - You hit it on the head ... for prestige and the $. (Although the money isn't always that significant, depending upon the club's financial flow through).  Prestige generally equals demand and it's important to have that demand especially in an area rich with private golf club choices.

At my club we voted down a yearly PGA event a few years ago. (Not even sure how committed the yearly event was, btw).

We have held other events and in the weeks leading up to the tournament we had limited guest play, but played right up to the Monday of the pro-am. And we were back on the course the Tuesday after the event. The course itself stays in great shape (save for the cross walks). But the surrounds looked like the carnival just left town.

Shotrock - you're right about the money and the interest generated by these events. All of us who played at Bethpage reaped the benefits of the money put into all 5 courses since the 2002 Open.

Mac, what does Doak say about this?

pedro wrote:Mac, what does Doak say about this?

I think he is more about the girth than the length.

"Backstopping", what are your thoughts?

Wayne Grady apparently had a mini rant on the Aussie commentary about players increasingly failing to mark and remove balls around the hole when others are pitching on. I can't remember any incidents where a player has actually used the the backstop.

It's an issue (or not) here too, Mac - not sure why the pros do it, it's quite the opposite of "protecting the field".
Doesn't alter the fact that Grady is a horrendous commentator, seems to have an axe to grind on just about everything and everybody.

I seem to remember someone used the "backstop" out of a bunker a few months back but its rarity was what made it newsworthy. I am not saying that excuses trying it but is this a problem on any significant scale?

It was Finau and Kokrak at Silverado. I don't think it's a big issue. I have hardly ever seen it.

It happens a lot on the PGA Tour, only noteworthy when the chipped/pitched/blasted ball hits another, but the habit of players leaving their ball in ambivalence of the possibility of assisting a fellow pro seems to be increasing, especially I imagine among the younger guys.

It’s an issue about someone gaining a potential advantage, not someone being incurred a potential penalty. That’s why I don’t see it as a big issue. Just as you can gain advantage of some of the relief rules, stupid as they may be, it’s not a major issue for me either. I agree it’s against the spirit of the game if you intentionally seek to use a ball as a backstop. But how would you change the rules to counter it? How far off the green do you need to be before your playing partner should mark his ball? Bunkers that are near the green but not "technically" green side bunkers? Rough around green?

Fair points but pros are quick enough to request a mark from quite a long way out if a playing partner's ball is in line with the hole, in front of it . . . . .
Matter of opinion but wouldn't be surprised if this continues to escalate.

Stenson confirmed in the field for Bahamas booty.
Can't see any changes to the latest list of "commitments".

I don't think anyone is that accurate they could use someone elses ball as a backstop. If they were that good, why not just put the ball in the hole, it's 2.5 times the size of the ball.

super_realist wrote:I don't think anyone is that accurate they could use someone elses ball as a backstop. If they were that good, why not just put the ball in the hole, it's 2.5 times the size of the ball.

"Backstop" is Mac's word. The fact is that PGA Tour players are habitually leaving balls on the green in indifference to whether a playing partner chipping or playing fro a greenside bunker might hit it beyond the hole and cause it to stop closer to the hole. Obviously it's only going to happen occasionally, but nevertheless . . . . . .

super_realist wrote:I don't think anyone is that accurate they could use someone elses ball as a backstop. If they were that good, why not just put the ball in the hole, it's 2.5 times the size of the ball.

Last time I checked, two obstacles to stop a ball near the hole is better than one obstacle to stop a ball near the ball.

To be honest, I haven't checked lately.

I would be shocked if Sergio Garcia left his ball on the green that might assist a Justin Thomas sand shot. I know it didn't happen in the Presidents Cup anytime the situation came up.

GPB wrote:

super_realist wrote:I don't think anyone is that accurate they could use someone elses ball as a backstop. If they were that good, why not just put the ball in the hole, it's 2.5 times the size of the ball.

Last time I checked, two obstacles to stop a ball near the hole is better than one obstacle to stop a ball near the ball.

To be honest, I haven't checked lately.

I would be shocked if Sergio Garcia  left his ball on the green that might assist a Justin Thomas sand shot.  I know it didn't happen in the Presidents Cup anytime the situation came up.

That's true GPB, but to intentionally try and hit a ball is a very tall order. You're not trying to stop a ball near a ball anyway, so what are you on about?

I'm not sure why a player would leave a ball on a green anyway unless it was in someone's eyeline to potentially put them off.

super,
You may not have watched the final round of today's Aussie Open, but Jason Day did exactly what we're talking about on about the 16th hole - Lucas Herbert didn't hit Day's ball with his chip, but it just made the safety net of hole/flag just a little bit wider. Trigger mini-rant from Grady.


Wonderful final round in Sydney incidentally - the Aussies may have found a star in Cameron Davis; perhaps we'll know more after web.com Q-School! Incidentally, he stripes the ball left-handed, as well as right-handed.

And, talking of Jason Day, he looked overweight and undercooked today; not sure why he split w/Swatton, but there was a distinct lack of purpose in his game, fairways, greens and putts missed in equal measure.
Would think he needs to lose at least a stone to get anywhere close to his laserlike competitiveness of years gone by. Looks a waste right now.

Always thought Day was going to be a flash in the pan. He's done what he wanted to do in the game, and now he appears to not be interested and is on the Shane Lowry diet.

Looks like Rory is going to stay in the OWGR Top 10 until year end. UNLESS Sergio wins next week in Australia.

Leishman is too far behind to catch him, even if he wins Australia, and Casey/Day are done for the year (I think)

Kuchar (and players behind him) are is too far behind to catch Rory, even if he wins HWC

kwinigolfer wrote:super,
You may not have watched the final round of today's Aussie Open, but Jason Day did exactly what we're talking about on about the 16th hole - Lucas Herbert didn't hit Day's ball with his chip, but it just made the safety net of hole/flag just a little bit wider. Trigger mini-rant from Grady.

Why would Day want to do that? Both him and Herbert were in the mix. Is Day just challenging Norman as the Godfather of Aussie golf by trying to help lesser players to a better career?

Everybody seems to be praising Woods after having played practise rounds with him. Does that mean he doesn’t finish last next week? I doubt it. Really strong field with no seat fillers, bar one.

While I've read lots about how he's hitting it nobody's said anytihing about his scoring. Guess it's looking good but without 'reps' in tournament conditions it's just like you or I striping it at the range!

pedro wrote:

kwinigolfer wrote:super,
You may not have watched the final round of today's Aussie Open, but Jason Day did exactly what we're talking about on about the 16th hole - Lucas Herbert didn't hit Day's ball with his chip, but it just made the safety net of hole/flag just a little bit wider. Trigger mini-rant from Grady.

Why would Day want to do that? Both him and Herbert were in the mix. Is Day just challenging Norman as the Godfather of Aussie golf by trying to help lesser players to a better career?

"Backstopping" or whatever you want to call it seems to SOP now, in most situations where a player is chipping, pitching, or hitting from a bunker. I did see one case in the Prez Cup where a player made sure he marked his ball before his opponent hit a bunker shot.

I don't see it when a player is putting from the fringe.

pedro wrote:Everybody seems to be praising Woods after having played practise rounds with him. Does that mean he doesn’t finish last next week? I doubt it. Really strong field with no seat fillers, bar one.

Him and the thickest man in golf could only halve with Trump and Faxon in a bounce game, so I don't think we're going to see anything special.

super_realist wrote:

pedro wrote:Everybody seems to be praising Woods after having played practise rounds with him. Does that mean he doesn’t finish last next week? I doubt it. Really strong field with no seat fillers, bar one.

Him and the thickest man in golf could only halve with Trump and Faxon in a bounce game, so I don't think we're going to see anything special.

I read that too. I know they played from different tees, but even North Korea dismissed it as fake news.

I'm guessing Trump plays his own gimmes with anything on the green.

Shotrock wrote:I'm guessing Trump plays his own gimmes with anything on the green.

"Probably" going to be Player of the Year.

prince drac reckons TW will move up approx 250 owgr places just for finish last in his own invitational. A sure sign of the "apocalypse".

kwinigolfer wrote:

prince drac reckons TW will move up approx 250 owgr places just for finish last in his own invitational. A sure sign of the "apocalypse".

yeah but there's a catch: "finish"

Shotrock wrote:I'm guessing Trump plays his own gimmes with anything on the green.

I'm the prez so I make the rules...

Just like this . . . . . :

https://deadspin.com/donald-trump-drives-golf-cart-on-the-green-like-a-true-1796329359

kwinigolfer wrote:Just like this . . . . . :

https://deadspin.com/donald-trump-drives-golf-cart-on-the-green-like-a-true-1796329359

He hasn’t got time to walk... too much golf to be played.
http://trumpgolfcount.com/displayoutings

Here is interesting (and most definitely biased) report from Titleist about the golf ball.

Golfers have been complaining about the golf ball for nearly 170 years.

http://media.titleist.com/images/titleist/files/us/traditionandtechnology_2017-sm.pdf

I don't see that as all that biased GPB.

Titleist will make money and sell balls whatever happens with rules surrounding the ball. They've got no reason to argue for the status quo. They're occupy a Major like status in Ball Production and Sales that can't really be usurped.

This whole ball argument is a bit like the Climate Change argument. Who decides what level it should be at? (Mac on both counts if you believe what he says)

I'm a bit sick of hearing about "the good old days" and shot making etc (especially by hasbeens who can't compete like "More Reps Woods" and Ogilvy). You still see plenty of those sorts of things if you choose interesting courses to hold tournaments on. If you hold tournaments on mainly target golf courses then it's never going to be all that  interesting whether that's with a modern ball or a Penfold Heart from Goldfinger.

Nobody is asking for footballs to go back to lace up heavy footballs of the 1960's, catgut wooden tennis rackets or cast iron Bobsleighs so I think it's stupid for people to keep boring on about the ball as if it's ruining the game.

Surely the advances in club technology also play a major part? No one is asking for a generic steel shaft or Persimmon drivers.

Interesting article though. Cheers for posting.