The Ashes: 1st Test, Brisbane

First topic message reminder :

1st Test Brisbane, November 23-27, 2017

Australia:
Bancroft, Warner, Khawaja, Smith *, Handscomb, S Marsh, Paine †, Starc, Cummins, Lyon, Hazelwood

England:
Cook, Stoneman, Vince, Root *, Malan, Ali, Bairstow †, Woakes, Ball, Broad, Anderson

LivinginItaly wrote:Australia esentially had two big partnerships both including Smith. England need to have two or three partnerships to put the pressure on Australia. It is time for Root and Bairstow and Moeen to step up to the plate.

This caught my eye yesterday. Very true but sadly from an England perspective we didn't have any meaningful partnerships second dig. I see Alfie has also been lamenting that.

In our second innings, we had four partnerships between 30 and 45 whilst none of the other six partnerships went beyond 12. That's without needing to bang on about no England player scoring big.

alfie wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:I wonder if Mason Crane will see some action on this toyr?

There will be a temptation to play him - probably in the next match !  I fear if they do it will will be one step towards the complete unravelling of their game plan and set the scene for another 5-0.  Think they have to stick to what nearly worked this time as far as the bowling goes - Perhaps Overton for Ball - and hope the batsmen do a better job.

Not ruling out Crane playing later (Sydney the most likely) ; but he couldn't bowl out the under twenty threes last week so I doubt he's a Secret Weapon.

The index finger of Moeen's bowling hand has been glued after he split it ''quite badly'' (his words*).

That's a concern for the second Test and could see Crane come further into consideration. Much as I like the look of Crane, I do wonder if he's ready yet.

Regardless of that, any replacement of Moeen by Crane will further weaken the batting. Woakes' ability with the bat (although not evidenced in this Test) should help him maintain his place leaving Ball in a shoot out with Overton.

* He said this in an interview with Alison Mitchell as part of BT's hapless coverage. She then asked him, ''Does it affect your bowling when that happens?''. I'm surprised she didn't add, '' Would you rather come shopping with me?''.

Duty281 wrote:Just caught up with the evening highlights.

Warner and Bancroft did well to ride out the storm. Game over, barring the most ridiculous comeback in Test history.

Ultimately, England didn’t score enough in either innings. I’m really not looking forward to when England have to bat on faster wickets!

With the guaranteed Australian win at Perth still to come, England’s chances in the series are thin.

this is my biggest worry, we were getting bounced out on probably the slowest pitch you will see at the gabba. be surprised if we play on a pitch slower than that the rest of the tour. if the pitches are quicker hopefully lyon wont be as much as a threat at least.

we really dont have much threat after broad and anderson. ali is ok against the lefties but never see him as a massive threat to the right handers. we also need to figure out a way of getting smith out, didnt even look close at any time in the first innings. the best spell was when we went short at him but dont think we have enough pace in our attack to sustain that tactic.

one of few positives was the form of the likes of malan, stoneman and vince. all who chipped in and showed there not the walking wickets i thought theyd be. i know they got out poorly when in a few times but at least they showed they could get in!

Playing Crane really wouldnt have helped. Hes not a good enough bowler plain and simple. Without Stokes his selection would leave England with either a huge tail or massive pressure on briad and anderson to bowl nulk overs on pitches that dont suit them.
Smith would destroy crane in this form.

I really dont see any justification for meddling with the team except possibly swapping ball for overton. Stokes wont be back untill the third test at best.

The individual players are better than whst they have produced so far. Some of the decision making has been poor ...especially Malan gifting his wicket away. The bowlers seem to have given up today and gone through the motions.

All in theres nothing in this game that should really have come as a surprise to anyone.

Stokes absence hurts, but all in all, it’s a weak looking test side. An inevitability about the outcome.

Jonny Bairstow has been accused of head butting Cameron Bancroft in a Perth bar during the warm match. If he’s sent home, we are in real crap...

Well at the end of D4 Eng has been blown away and my observations are no different from the first 3 days.....summarizing them again

--Lyon's turn and bounce was too hot for the top order ....that Ali doesn't match as a bowler and that remains a big difference between sides.
This is one pitch where Rashid would have made a difference

--And Aus pacers are the other difference.....only 3 of them but Starc& Cummins bend their backs, hit 90+ , dig it in and expose the tailender in Eng's lower order...fearing , evading the short one and retreating from the line of the ball.
Something not evident on English or subcontinent pitches
Even Ali who got a few runs in both innings wasn't batting like an established batsman...but chancing his arm
with intelligence but hit and miss nevertheless

--Batting strengths of both sides are alike..... Aus delivers more however because Eng lacks the bowling to make Aus's lower order hop, skip and jump... with slight exception of Broad

Woakes while exposed as a batsman by short pitch....as a bowler he is classical skiddy kiss the top seamer....thoroughly ineffective here

Anderson is allowed to treat himself as a Royal who will preserve himself to line-length spells of fast medium swing bowling that wins Eng plenty of test matches at home.....
but he won't bend his back to come out of preservation-mode & hence he is to Eng what Kumble was too India
Match winner in home conditions very moderate elsewhere

I expected more from Ball based on what I saw in India where he bent his back in T4...he disappointed

Eng have to get their seamers to go flat out and not mind if they break down in two tests...at least they would have delivered in those two tests
Else the gap between sides will widen unless Starc/and or Cummins break down

Bairstow now being investigated for an alleged headbutt against Bancroft a few weeks ago.

Duty281 wrote:Bairstow now being investigated for an alleged headbutt against Bancroft a few weeks ago.

Matt Prior pretty adamant that there was no wrong doing and that this won't turn into anything big,

"does anyone actually know the truth behind the story? When you find out you’ll laugh. As I said there is no story"

England have done OK, yes it will look like a big defeat but they competed for the first three days. Let's be honest, these tours are designed for the away team to be thrashed 4-1 or 5-0.

You've got a team arriving and being given joke warm up matches after not having played for a few months against the home team in the middle of their own season. That tells eventually, as it did here where Australia were just that bit better grooved to accelerate away to the win when the chance came

Agnew tweeted they were drinking together, and carried on drinking together after it happened - both camps trying to play it down.

Storm in a tea cup

I've long thought that Lyon was underrated as a bowler - he's now getting the recognition he and his performance deserve.

England's display has been, at the same time, both encouraging and deeply disappointing.
   Encouraging in that they have competed for long periods with the Australians, have seen three Ashes debutants make runs, and have not been blown away - at least not until the last part of day four.
   The disappointment has come from being in potentially winning positions at 240-odd for four on day two, having the Aussies 209 for seven on day three and even when Bairstow and Woakes were together with the lead of more than 150 in the second innings.
   Worryingly, though, these could be the best positions England get in during the series. Don't agree, by the way, about Rashid of Crane being missed. Reckon either of them would go all round the park.

Not too sure what positives England can take from this.

Australia have batted, bowled, fielded and ran between the wickets better than England. Smith has outperformed Root. Warner has outperformed Cook. Ali has been comprehensively outbowled by Lyon.

Anderson and Root's fitness has a question mark. Bairstow has a legal question mark. Woakes and Ball have been poor.

Worst of all, the English batting order has struggled to cope with short-pitched bowling on the most placid and slow track that they will face all series.

The game was won for Australia, as I said at the time, during that second morning when England lurched from a promising 246/4 to a miserable 302 all out. It has been a damaging defeat. The swift turn-around to the second test in Adelaide will hardly improve matters.

some more thoughts

-->Root's falling over trying to whip straight balls across the line through mid-wicket

This is a temporary flailing generally occurs when a batsman gets too fidgety / losing focus...in Root's case it could be captaincy matters taking his attention

He's gotta cut this stroke out completely for now and present a full straight bat to suhc deliveries like he got from Hazlewood today

--> Matt Renshaw was suhc a solid opener when we saw him in India
why is he not playing...and how is Khawaja playing

Bancroft I remember having seen him on A tour do very well vs India and was hoping he would open for Aus and we saw Renshaw instead in India

Bancroft reminds me of Michael Clarke in his stroke play
There is room for both Renshaw and Bancroft in top-3

A lot of doom and gloom on here. I would just ask people to cast their minds back to the 2013 Gabba Test. A highly comprehensive defeat for England inside four days if I remember rightly.

Indeed the d & g being overdone - as I would expect of England fans

Matters not unless the team buys into it. Hopefully they won't.

Duty is correct about the second morning proving (eventually) the key ; though the situation was not totally lost and could have been completely recovered had they been able to get Cummins out quickly. I was not totally surprised the second innings fell apart - largely through some indecisive batting against the excellent Lyon (though they were unfortunate with the very marginal decision against Moeen). For all the talk about the Australian pace attack the batsmen handled them reasonably well for the most part.

Once the target was left at a meagre 170 ; and more importantly the England bowlers were deprived of a decent rest after the first innings , the rush to victory by the hosts was inevitable...

No one said this would be easy. Adelaide is real backs to the wall stuff now...time for Bayliss to earn his corn.

And of course , not to forget Smith. He is a great player ; and this was one of his finest achievements. Sometimes you just have to say "well played"

Not doom and gloom from me but disappointment and a lot of frustration.

We created opportunities but let them get away. 300 was a very ordinary first innings total considering we were 240+/4. However, we were still looking at a useful lead of 40+ when we had Australia 7 down. As we know, that didn't happen. Steve Smith batted brilliantly and Jumbo Cummins did a good job in riding shotgun - you have to give credit to both for that. However, I suspect Australia's attack would have been more successful in removing Cummins. That leads to another frustration - Woakes.

Woakes has had a poor game. Sure, that can happen to anyone but - even if this was only a one off - the timing was mighty unfortunate. The first Test of this Ashes tour needed him not only to show normal form but ideally step it up with Stokes unavailable.

The frustration continues with Cook who totally failed to make his experience count.

In essence, Australia and especially Smith have made things count. We've had chances to do the same but haven't capitalised on them. The response in the second Test will probably show whether we should be encouraged or despondent. I'll stay disappointed and frustrated for now.

We appear to be on the same page , guildford.

One question I have re England's tactics in the field : when Australia were 213/7 after lunch day three : did Root attack Smith/Cummins hard enough ? Ball was new ; it was clearly a key point in the match. (I was away trying to play my own game so missed that bit of play)

alfie wrote:We appear to be on the same page , guildford.

One question I have re England's tactics in the field :  when Australia were 213/7 after lunch day three : did Root attack Smith/Cummins hard enough ?  Ball was new ; it was clearly a key point in the match. (I was away trying to play my own game so missed that bit of play)

Sorry, Alfie - I've been heading for bed on the stroke of lunch and so didn't see the passage of play concerned! I think this all ties in though with the confusion over Anderson's fitness (which still hasn't been properly explained) as he was soon replaced by Ball at this stage.

Warner and Bancroft in no immediate rush this morning.

I suppose they could just crawl, rather than storm, towards the target; keep England out in the field for longer, thus tiring and demoralising the tourists ever further.

Was hoping we could take couple of wickets today if only to put abit if doubt into the batsman against the bowler in the next test

I’ll take Warner smashing the remaining runs and getting his 100 purely for the prediction game

Compelling - yeah, a wicket for Ball and/or Woakes would have been handy for their confidence and, certainly in Ball's case, helped his chances of keeping his place.

No bowling by Moeen today. Sensible not to risk worsening his injury but concerning that his fitness for the second Test looks as if it may be in doubt.

Well played Australia.

A comprehensive victory. The only place England won was in the stands!

Form concerns, fitness concerns, just taken a battering in Brisbane - this England is starting to remind me of the 2006/7 touring side!

Still, as the Barmy Army rightly sang, we'll just have to settle for 4-1...

Very professional job from Warner and Bancroft this morning as they safely see Australia home.

Smith will deservedly get most of the plaudits but I'll throw in here a word as well for Australia's four man attack. They bowled very well and effectively as a unit. No one took more than 6 match wickets but each built upon the work of the other.

Comments for England as above earlier.

Anyway, an earlier night for me. Go well all.

Long way to go but a good start to the series. Always good to get that psychological advantage over the English early on. Looking forward to the second test now. Well done on the win boys. Proud of you all

Pathetic post from Steffan, I didn't see him on here in the summer when England won both Test series

VTR wrote:Pathetic post from Steffan, I didn't see him on here in the summer when England won both Test series

He conveniently doesn't post on the Rugby boards any more, oh well there can't be much to cheer as a Welsh sports fan.

Ha, the guy must be very bored. Who is up at 1am posting rubbish like that. I can almost understand "anyone but England" in Rugby and Football but I've never heard of it in cricket, especially considering England represent Wales as well

Adelaide should suit England better. Should be a bit more movement with the pink ball.
For me Crane comes in for Ball, who looked rusty and completely non threatening.
Not all doom and gloom, still 4 games to play...

Not all doom and gloom, England lost the key moments rather than being soundly outplayed in the end imo.

England need to find a few levels before Adelaide but equally this is far from an invincible Aus team

Think that's a test we could have won with Stokes

Not sure, think Vince not going big might have been the biggest difference. And then Smith/Marsh pulling them out of a hole. That's where we lost this test and let Australia keep even.

If Stokes fires sure, but that's never been a guarantee

I just think not only does he bowl with more threat than Ball (and Woakes), but he also probably wouldn't have felt like the relief act coming in to help the Aussies out once Anderson and Broad had gone.

Equally, added pressure on Bairstow and Ali combined with a weak tail. Not just the runs, but the likely time and attitude, whereas I think the Aussies knew they could bully what we had left.

Presuming Bairstow plays in Adelaide, he absolutely must bat above Ali and possibly even Malan.

It's an absolute waste having someone with a 45+ FC average batting with the tail (for the most part).

Other than that, the only change I can envisage is Overton in for Ball.

VTR wrote:Ha, the guy must be very bored. Who is up at 1am posting rubbish like that. I can almost understand "anyone but England" in Rugby and Football but I've never heard of it in cricket, especially considering England represent Wales as well  

Australia have beaten Wales about 50 times in a row in rugby now, so I can only presume he likes it so much that he hopes the Aussies beat the England + Wales cricket team, too!

Wow...the anti-Welsh gang are well out in their forces today

All because I cheer on Australia in cricket (and have done since 1993)

Now suddenly Welsh rugby results (yes Wales are crap and need new coaching staff) are being brought onto a cricket forum when N=not once on this thread have I insulted the English cricket team

Sore losers after the first test or what

Probably going to have to do better than that as bait.

GSC wrote:Probably going to have to do better than that as bait.

Duty and Lion try their best. Unfortunately neither one is particularly bright. Duty is slightly more intelligent to be fair. You only have to look at Lion's Brexit posts to start feeling mentally (and economically) unwell

Ah well...

Steffan wrote:Sore losers after the first test or what

Not really. I'm coining it in after the first test result.

GSC wrote:Not all doom and gloom, England lost the key moments rather than being soundly outplayed in the end imo.

England need to find a few levels before Adelaide but equally this is far from an invincible Aus team

Anyway let's ignore the idiots and keyboard warriors and get back to talking about cricket

I don't think it is doom and gloom for England at all. It was basically one innings which changed the match. I thought England bowled and fielded quite well during the first innings. Australia didn't look that amazing but held it together better with the bat later. I think England go into the second test with every chance of winning. Might be worth a cheeky few quid actually. If England win the toss I imagine they would put the Aussies in first to try and get them out early

Duty281 wrote:

Steffan wrote:Sore losers after the first test or what

Not really. I'm coining it in after the first test result.

Good for you. Will you be betting on the same fixture only different sport (Saturdays rugby league final) as well?

The bookies have certainly written off any chance of you lot winning but if you did pull it off and have bet on England then there is certainly a lot of money to be made

Steffan wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

Steffan wrote:Sore losers after the first test or what

Not really. I'm coining it in after the first test result.

Good for you. Will you be betting on the same fixture only different sport (Saturdays rugby league final) as well?

The bookies have certainly written off any chance of you lot winning but if you did pull it off and have bet on England then there is certainly a lot of money to be made

England have about as much chance of winning on Saturday as they do of winning this test series.

Duty281 wrote:

Steffan wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

Steffan wrote:Sore losers after the first test or what

Not really. I'm coining it in after the first test result.

Good for you. Will you be betting on the same fixture only different sport (Saturdays rugby league final) as well?

The bookies have certainly written off any chance of you lot winning but if you did pull it off and have bet on England then there is certainly a lot of money to be made

England have about as much chance of winning on Saturday as they do of winning this test series.

Crikey. You use to be the epitome of English optimism when you first joined this forum. What changed...

Steffan wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

Steffan wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

Steffan wrote:Sore losers after the first test or what

Not really. I'm coining it in after the first test result.

Good for you. Will you be betting on the same fixture only different sport (Saturdays rugby league final) as well?

The bookies have certainly written off any chance of you lot winning but if you did pull it off and have bet on England then there is certainly a lot of money to be made

England have about as much chance of winning on Saturday as they do of winning this test series.

Crikey. You use to be the epitome of English optimism when you first joined this forum. What changed...

I never was. I just gave my honest opinion (which some people confused with optimism, even though the majority of the time I was right).

Back on topic..

Game at Adelaide is a day nighter. Will be interesting to watch and should be able to see more of it now it is starting later! 4am UK time i believe?
Any changes to the England team? I think the only player up for debate is Ball? I was surprised when he was called up in the first place and then to play him ahead of Overton, who had played the warm up games, seemed strange to me.

jimbohammers wrote:Back on topic..

Game at Adelaide is a day nighter. Will be interesting to watch and should be able to see more of it now it is starting later! 4am UK time i believe?
Any changes to the England team? I think the only player up for debate is Ball? I was surprised when he was called up in the first place and then to play him ahead of Overton, who had played the warm up games, seemed strange to me.

I think Ball won the place as he has more pace whereas Overton can extract more bounce from a pitch. Also I am not sure of the stats but I hazard a guess that Ball is the competent with the bat than Overton.

Hearing that Ben Stokes is at Heathrow.

England's saviour, like Botham or Flintoff, only more ginger.

With a fishing rod?