New Zealand dicipline

by Collapse2005 Mon 27 Nov 2017, 12:34 pm

First topic message reminder :

https://i.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all-blacks/99278416/all-blacks-see-plenty-of-yellow-and-a-bit-of-red-in-2017

NZ are oficially the most ill diciplined team in world rugby. Despite the denial shown by Steve Hanson whenever questioned on NZs dicipline (most famously after playing Ireland in Dublin where they dodged two red cards through poor refereeing) they are the most carded side in 07 and in general ill diciplined.

Is it time Hanson acknowledged this fact?

by Gwlad Fri 01 Dec 2017, 8:21 pm

Taylorman wrote:
Rugby Fan wrote:
Taylorman wrote:...It's no coincidence that the side most penalised is also the number one side...

How on earth do you figure that, Taylorman? I'd actually be quite surprised if World Cup-winning sides were also the most penalized. England certainly weren't. By World Rugby rankings, New Zealand have been top for a long time now but I can't recall anyone suggesting they were the most penalized before.

The statement also seems very much at odds with your previous contention that the All Blacks are taught "to take the referee out of the game". Getting penalized more than other teams doesn't seem like an effective way of doing it.

Good sides test the limits of a referee but, having found them, stay on the right side of whatever line he draws on the day. Sometimes, it's a free-for-all which bears little relation to written laws. If you play like that, as Richie McCaw's New Zealand certainly did, with him leading by example, then you won't top the penalty count.

My point is if they're the most penalised side because they cheat the most, yet they keep winning, it so cheating must be working more for them than against, because there will be that many more situations where they've cheated more ~~pushed the envelope~~ and not got caught, so it pays off. Not saying cheating it suits all sides though because none are so good as New Zealand.

Its a bit like the Territory and possession myth. Wales had something like 63 and 67% of both, and in a test match thats a stat that you expect to win with. But no, its about quality use of the possession and territory. Wales were obviously very poor at utilising both comparatively and not cheating, though I did think the Scott Williams try was one of, if not the best test try this year. Set play perfection.

by **Rugby Fan** Sat 02 Dec 2017, 12:58 am

Taylorman wrote:
Rugby Fan wrote:
Taylorman wrote:...It's no coincidence that the side most penalised is also the number one side...

How on earth do you figure that, Taylorman? I'd actually be quite surprised if World Cup-winning sides were also the most penalized. England certainly weren't. By World Rugby rankings, New Zealand have been top for a long time now but I can't recall anyone suggesting they were the most penalized before.

The statement also seems very much at odds with your previous contention that the All Blacks are taught "to take the referee out of the game". Getting penalized more than other teams doesn't seem like an effective way of doing it.

Good sides test the limits of a referee but, having found them, stay on the right side of whatever line he draws on the day. Sometimes, it's a free-for-all which bears little relation to written laws. If you play like that, as Richie McCaw's New Zealand certainly did, with him leading by example, then you won't top the penalty count.

My point is if theyre the most penalised side, yet they keep winning, it must be working more for them than against, because there will be that many more situations where theyve pushed the envelope and not got caught, so it pays off. Not saying it suits all sides though.

Its a bit like the Territory and possession myth. Wales had sonething like 63 and 67% of both, and in a test match thats a stat that you expect to win with. But no, its about quality use of the possession and territory. Wales were obviously very poor at utilising both comparatively, though I did think the Scott Williams try was one of, if not the best test try this year. Set play perfection.

Completely agree that if you are penalized but keep winning, then there's no immediate reason to worry. If I was Hansen, though, I'd be concerned that some of the risks taken could backfire. It seemed out of character for Kieran Read to swat the ball away against Scotland but it worked. If spotted, that infringement could have led to a penalty try and yellow card. The outcome was fine, but I wonder whether Read was actually more reckless, than calculating, on the day.

Agree about the territory and possession statistics. If it only takes you a few phases to score, then you aren't going to need a lot of time in possession. Meanwhile, if the other team bangs away ineffectively in multiple phases, then they could well end up with great statistics everywhere except the scoreboard. Since New Zealand are great counter attackers, it suits them to face a predictable attack, and wait for an error.

by Taylorman Sat 02 Dec 2017, 8:49 am

Gwlad wrote:
Taylorman wrote:
Rugby Fan wrote:
Taylorman wrote:...It's no coincidence that the side most penalised is also the number one side...

How on earth do you figure that, Taylorman? I'd actually be quite surprised if World Cup-winning sides were also the most penalized. England certainly weren't. By World Rugby rankings, New Zealand have been top for a long time now but I can't recall anyone suggesting they were the most penalized before.

The statement also seems very much at odds with your previous contention that the All Blacks are taught "to take the referee out of the game". Getting penalized more than other teams doesn't seem like an effective way of doing it.

Good sides test the limits of a referee but, having found them, stay on the right side of whatever line he draws on the day. Sometimes, it's a free-for-all which bears little relation to written laws. If you play like that, as Richie McCaw's New Zealand certainly did, with him leading by example, then you won't top the penalty count.

My point is if they're the most penalised side because they cheat the most, yet they keep winning, it so cheating must be working more for them than against, because there will be that many more situations where they've cheated more ~~pushed the envelope~~ and not got caught, so it pays off. Not saying cheating it suits all sides though because none are so good as New Zealand.

Its a bit like the Territory and possession myth. Wales had something like 63 and 67% of both, and in a test match thats a stat that you expect to win with. But no, its about quality use of the possession and territory. Wales were obviously very poor at utilising both comparatively and not cheating, though I did think the Scott Williams try was one of, if not the best test try this year. Set play perfection.

Change your own posts turkey. Theres enough of em that need it.

by Gwlad Sun 03 Dec 2017, 9:06 pm

Taylorman wrote:
Gwlad wrote:
Taylorman wrote:
Rugby Fan wrote:
Taylorman wrote:...It's no coincidence that the side most penalised is also the number one side...

How on earth do you figure that, Taylorman? I'd actually be quite surprised if World Cup-winning sides were also the most penalized. England certainly weren't. By World Rugby rankings, New Zealand have been top for a long time now but I can't recall anyone suggesting they were the most penalized before.

The statement also seems very much at odds with your previous contention that the All Blacks are taught "to take the referee out of the game". Getting penalized more than other teams doesn't seem like an effective way of doing it.

Good sides test the limits of a referee but, having found them, stay on the right side of whatever line he draws on the day. Sometimes, it's a free-for-all which bears little relation to written laws. If you play like that, as Richie McCaw's New Zealand certainly did, with him leading by example, then you won't top the penalty count.

My point is if they're the most penalised side because they cheat the most, yet they keep winning, it so cheating must be working more for them than against, because there will be that many more situations where they've cheated more ~~pushed the envelope~~ and not got caught, so it pays off. Not saying cheating it suits all sides though because none are so good as New Zealand.

Its a bit like the Territory and possession myth. Wales had something like 63 and 67% of both, and in a test match thats a stat that you expect to win with. But no, its about quality use of the possession and territory. Wales were obviously very poor at utilising both comparatively and not cheating, though I did think the Scott Williams try was one of, if not the best test try this year. Set play perfection.

Change your own posts turkey. Theres enough of em that need it.

Turkey....coming from a Kiwi thats hilarious, a sign of respect no doubt to the bigger meatier bird that can actually fly and is loved worldwide Laugh

Change posts? But that would be cheating, no doubt acceptable to you but not me.

by Taylorman Sun 03 Dec 2017, 10:16 pm

Gwlad wrote:
Taylorman wrote:
Rugby Fan wrote:
Taylorman wrote:...It's no coincidence that the side most penalised is also the number one side...

How on earth do you figure that, Taylorman? I'd actually be quite surprised if World Cup-winning sides were also the most penalized. England certainly weren't. By World Rugby rankings, New Zealand have been top for a long time now but I can't recall anyone suggesting they were the most penalized before.

The statement also seems very much at odds with your previous contention that the All Blacks are taught "to take the referee out of the game". Getting penalized more than other teams doesn't seem like an effective way of doing it.

Good sides test the limits of a referee but, having found them, stay on the right side of whatever line he draws on the day. Sometimes, it's a free-for-all which bears little relation to written laws. If you play like that, as Richie McCaw's New Zealand certainly did, with him leading by example, then you won't top the penalty count.

My point is if they're the most penalised side because they cheat the most, yet they keep winning, it so cheating must be working more for them than against, because there will be that many more situations where they've cheated more ~~pushed the envelope~~ and not got caught, so it pays off. Not saying cheating it suits all sides though because none are so good as New Zealand.

Its a bit like the Territory and possession myth. Wales had something like 63 and 67% of both, and in a test match thats a stat that you expect to win with. But no, its about quality use of the possession and territory. Wales were obviously very poor at utilising both comparatively and not cheating, though I did think the Scott Williams try was one of, if not the best test try this year. Set play perfection.

Eirebilly should have written...

Taylorman, like myself and many others, has simply fallen into the trap of these incredible WUM's. Taylorman was talking about the game until these keyboard warriors hijacked the thread.

The MOD's really need to look into this as it is totally wrecking this forum with many good posters leaving. These WUM's single out posters and then launch into unrelenting pack like attacks. Its nothing short of internet bullying full of personal attacks to be honest.

Just thought Id make sure you were consistent with your opinion billy. Odd you didnt see it necessary to post your comment here, and I can show you many others.

Any conversation about the ABs gets dragged down into a cheating troll from Gwlad so lets be clear about what it is you are complaining about.

Capiche?

by Gwlad Sun 03 Dec 2017, 10:20 pm

Taylorman wrote:
Gwlad wrote:
Taylorman wrote:
Rugby Fan wrote:
Taylorman wrote:...It's no coincidence that the side most penalised is also the number one side...

How on earth do you figure that, Taylorman? I'd actually be quite surprised if World Cup-winning sides were also the most penalized. England certainly weren't. By World Rugby rankings, New Zealand have been top for a long time now but I can't recall anyone suggesting they were the most penalized before.

The statement also seems very much at odds with your previous contention that the All Blacks are taught "to take the referee out of the game". Getting penalized more than other teams doesn't seem like an effective way of doing it.

Good sides test the limits of a referee but, having found them, stay on the right side of whatever line he draws on the day. Sometimes, it's a free-for-all which bears little relation to written laws. If you play like that, as Richie McCaw's New Zealand certainly did, with him leading by example, then you won't top the penalty count.

My point is if they're the most penalised side because they cheat the most, yet they keep winning, it so cheating must be working more for them than against, because there will be that many more situations where they've cheated more ~~pushed the envelope~~ and not got caught, so it pays off. Not saying cheating it suits all sides though because none are so good as New Zealand.

Its a bit like the Territory and possession myth. Wales had something like 63 and 67% of both, and in a test match thats a stat that you expect to win with. But no, its about quality use of the possession and territory. Wales were obviously very poor at utilising both comparatively and not cheating, though I did think the Scott Williams try was one of, if not the best test try this year. Set play perfection.

Eirebilly should have written...

Taylorman, like myself and many others, has simply fallen into the trap of these incredible WUM's. Taylorman was talking about the game until these keyboard warriors hijacked the thread.

The MOD's really need to look into this as it is totally wrecking this forum with many good posters leaving. These WUM's single out posters and then launch into unrelenting pack like attacks. Its nothing short of internet bullying full of personal attacks to be honest.

Just thought Id make sure you were consistent with your opinion billy. Odd you didnt see it necessary to post your comment here, and I can show you many others.

Any conversation about the ABs gets dragged down into a cheating troll from Gwlad so lets be clear about what it is you are complaining about.

Capiche?

Capiche?!!!!! Laugh

Is that like Ceviche with capers?

You mean Kappisch you complete Kiwi bird Doh

by Gwlad Sun 03 Dec 2017, 10:21 pm

And the 'unrelenting pack' is you ebop and Laurie, hardly surprising that as a Kiwi pack you'd cheat. I am on my Tod and dont need back up thanks very much.

by Guest Sun 03 Dec 2017, 10:30 pm

You deserve all you get. Although your best mate eirebilly has taken a shine to you, lol.

by Gwlad Sun 03 Dec 2017, 10:43 pm

ebop wrote:You deserve all you get. Although your best mate eirebilly has taken a shine to you, lol.

nice guy but not my best mate, there you go again bop....no judgment whatsoever laughing

by Gwlad Sun 03 Dec 2017, 11:11 pm

You should watch Parkes first cap video, then you'd know something about how we have welcomed this New Zealander into a rugby brethren you clearly don't have a clue about; Rugby is played with heart in Wales; the way you Kiwi fans behave it is clear that the brotherhood of rugby is long dead there. We know how you speak of your own after the disgraceful lack of Rispsict Gatland was shown this summer, Rispict being the thing Kiwis bang on about ad nauseam yet dont show it to one of their own....I mean for real, you can't even show it to your own countrymen. Just glad Barret got his accolades, he saved Kiwi bacon when the Lions were in town and only a buffoon of the highest order would rate him as having an poor year.

by Taylorman Sun 03 Dec 2017, 11:38 pm

Gwlad wrote:You should watch Parkes first cap video, then you'd know something about how we have welcomed this New Zealander into a rugby brethren you clearly don't have a clue about; Rugby is played with heart in Wales; the way you Kiwi fans behave it is clear that the brotherhood of rugby is long dead there. We know how you speak of your own after the disgraceful lack of Rispsict Gatland was shown this summer, Rispict being the thing Kiwis bang on about ad nauseam yet dont show it to one of their own....I mean for real, you can't even show it to your own countrymen. Just glad Barret got his accolades, he saved Kiwi bacon when the Lions were in town and only a buffoon of the highest order would rate him as having an poor year.

Oh I think we know a bit about passion and support for our own.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/international/99496850/hadleigh-parkes-chokes-up-as-messages-as-support-come-in-for-stunning-wales-debut

You continue to paint a picture of NZ rugby that aint there.

by Guest Sun 03 Dec 2017, 11:45 pm

Yes, gwlad has quite the imagination

by Taylorman Mon 04 Dec 2017, 12:15 am

ebop wrote:Yes, gwlad has quite the imagination

'Rugby is played with heart in Wales'

That may be , but if hes inferring it aint here he needs to spend a season with a club here. Any club. Then he'll find out about rugby played with a passion.

by Guest Mon 04 Dec 2017, 12:29 am

His argument is based on some jip that Gatland received from ‘some’ journalists and because we don’t think Barrett had an outstanding year.

It’s crazy stuff Headscratch

by Gwlad Mon 04 Dec 2017, 2:32 am

ebop wrote:His argument is based on some jip that Gatland received from ‘some’ journalists and because we don’t think Barrett had an outstanding year.

It’s crazy stuff

'we'...you mean 'I'. Too funny now ebop trying to get Larry and Moe on his team.

You keep shifting this like Trump but he knows what he's doing. You said he had an indiifferent year.....I guess it was indifferent until he won World's Best Player Doh

by aucklandlaurie Mon 04 Dec 2017, 5:30 am

Gwlad, we all think Beauden Barrett had a very ordinary year, just because he wins the World title of rugby player of the year means nothing because that is mostly decided upon by non New Zealanders.

Next week New Zealand hold the New Zealand Rugby player of the year awards, Beauden Barrett isnt even nominated.

I dont think you will ever understand us Kiwis, but its very funny watching you try.

by Taylorman Mon 04 Dec 2017, 5:46 am

aucklandlaurie wrote:Gwlad, we all think Beauden Barrett had a very ordinary year, just because he wins the World title of rugby player of the year means nothing because that is mostly decided upon by non New Zealanders.

Next week New Zealand hold the New Zealand Rugby player of the year awards, Beauden Barrett isnt even nominated.

I dont think you will ever understand us Kiwis, but its very funny watching you try.

(explains the class of '53 then?)

Reiko and Retallick have gotta be the faves Laurie?

by Sgt_Pooly Mon 04 Dec 2017, 6:03 am

Not sure I want to get involved, but I agree that Barrett wasn't that great this year. This award rings of the time that McCaw picked it up when he didn't have a stellar year but was fantastic the year prior.

Who would the NZ guys have picked from outside?

by Taylorman Mon 04 Dec 2017, 6:23 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Not sure I want to get involved, but I agree that Barrett wasn't that great this year. This award rings of the time that McCaw picked it up when he didn't have a stellar year but was fantastic the year prior.

Who would the NZ guys have picked from outside?

Well I had Folau just heading Itoje after Retallick dropped out. Then Itoje after Folau got married..(.lucky bugga!...

by Taylorman Mon 04 Dec 2017, 6:24 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Not sure I want to get involved, but I agree that Barrett wasn't that great this year. This award rings of the time that McCaw picked it up when he didn't have a stellar year but was fantastic the year prior.

Who would the NZ guys have picked from outside?

Well I had Folau just heading Itoje after Retallick dropped out. Then Itoje after Folau got married..(.lucky bugga!...but if the AIs were counted Id be back with Reiko Ioane, thought he was stunning throughout the entire year and finished on a high. Biiiig future at just 20.

by Taylorman Mon 04 Dec 2017, 6:29 am

Gwlad wrote:
Taylorman wrote:
Gwlad wrote:
Taylorman wrote:
Rugby Fan wrote:
Taylorman wrote:...It's no coincidence that the side most penalised is also the number one side...

How on earth do you figure that, Taylorman? I'd actually be quite surprised if World Cup-winning sides were also the most penalized. England certainly weren't. By World Rugby rankings, New Zealand have been top for a long time now but I can't recall anyone suggesting they were the most penalized before.

The statement also seems very much at odds with your previous contention that the All Blacks are taught "to take the referee out of the game". Getting penalized more than other teams doesn't seem like an effective way of doing it.

Good sides test the limits of a referee but, having found them, stay on the right side of whatever line he draws on the day. Sometimes, it's a free-for-all which bears little relation to written laws. If you play like that, as Richie McCaw's New Zealand certainly did, with him leading by example, then you won't top the penalty count.

My point is if they're the most penalised side because they cheat the most, yet they keep winning, it so cheating must be working more for them than against, because there will be that many more situations where they've cheated more ~~pushed the envelope~~ and not got caught, so it pays off. Not saying cheating it suits all sides though because none are so good as New Zealand.

Its a bit like the Territory and possession myth. Wales had something like 63 and 67% of both, and in a test match thats a stat that you expect to win with. But no, its about quality use of the possession and territory. Wales were obviously very poor at utilising both comparatively and not cheating, though I did think the Scott Williams try was one of, if not the best test try this year. Set play perfection.

Eirebilly should have written...

Taylorman, like myself and many others, has simply fallen into the trap of these incredible WUM's. Taylorman was talking about the game until these keyboard warriors hijacked the thread.

The MOD's really need to look into this as it is totally wrecking this forum with many good posters leaving. These WUM's single out posters and then launch into unrelenting pack like attacks. Its nothing short of internet bullying full of personal attacks to be honest.

Just thought Id make sure you were consistent with your opinion billy. Odd you didnt see it necessary to post your comment here, and I can show you many others.

Any conversation about the ABs gets dragged down into a cheating troll from Gwlad so lets be clear about what it is you are complaining about.

Capiche?

Capiche?!!!!!

Is that like Ceviche with capers?

You mean Kappisch you complete Kiwi bird

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/capiche

Egg.

by aucklandlaurie Mon 04 Dec 2017, 6:30 am

Not sure Taylorman. I'm more leaning towards Sarah Goss and Sam Whitelock.

I think what counts against Reiko is he needs to just show that bit more consistency and he has not done the time at the top to establish that attribute. Rettallick has had to spend time away from the game in a way that only a family tragedy can do, but he will be back.

Whitelock has gone into the captaincy sector of the game and not missed a beat in his usual locking tasks, dont think winning Super Rugby carries much weight though.

Sarah Goss is an interesting one as she did have an amazing World Cup.

The one I really would like to see is Razor pick up coach of the year award.

by Taylorman Mon 04 Dec 2017, 6:48 am

aucklandlaurie wrote:Not sure Taylorman. I'm more leaning towards Sarah Goss and Sam Whitelock.

I think what counts against Reiko is he needs to just show that bit more consistency and he has not done the time at the top to establish that attribute. Rettallick has had to spend time away from the game in a way that only a family tragedy can do, but he will be back.

Whitelock has gone into the captaincy sector of the game and not missed a beat in his usual locking tasks, dont think winning Super Rugby carries much weight though.

Sarah Goss is an interesting one as she did have an amazing World Cup.

The one I really would like to see is Razor pick up coach of the year award.

Must admit I didnt follow the womens tourney a lot this year as I though Portia was still the standout there.. agree with Razor but still thought Reiko finished strongly, and consistently. Tend to take Both Sams for granted and thought Canes match against Wales matched Marx's for South Africa as the two best individual efforts involving NZ sides this year.

by aucklandlaurie Mon 04 Dec 2017, 8:04 am

Marx was outstanding in the game at Albany, if the guy just went away and worked on his lineout tasks he could be a World beater, I agree he was the hardest working Springbok forward against Wales.

by Sgt_Pooly Mon 04 Dec 2017, 8:55 am

I'm a big fan fan of Whitelock but would put Itoje ahead of him this year. Whitelock's issue is he's super consistent and unflashy. He just goes about his role to a high standard without really being noticed.

I don't rate Sam Cane too highly, it's a position I think you could do with strengthening really.

by Taylorman Mon 04 Dec 2017, 9:14 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I'm a big fan fan of Whitelock but would put Itoje ahead of him this year. Whitelock's issue is he's super consistent and unflashy. He just goes about his role to a high standard without really being noticed.

I don't rate Sam Cane too highly, it's a position I think you could do with strengthening really.

Absolutely disagree with that. Goes with the weak AB scrum I suppose. Cane is the epitomy of what todays game needs in a seven. Easily the hardest tackler playing the game today and a massive work rate. If you get the chance rewatch the Welsh game and just watch Cane. Doubt youll find a better performance by a seven this year. how do you not rate Cane with at least one last rating of:

Sam Cane 9: Was like a bull stomping around the turf in Cardiff, smashing anything that moved in Welsh red. Made try-saving tackle on Taulupe Faletau in the first half and one crucial bone-crunching hit that dislodged the ball when Wales were chasing a second-half lead with the All Blacks defending their own line. Finished with 21 tackles.
Sure its our write up, but no denying the impact he had on the match.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11948025

You cant be watching at all. Respect your opinion, just dont know how you arrive at it.

by Taylorman Mon 04 Dec 2017, 9:19 am

aucklandlaurie wrote:Marx was outstanding in the game at Albany, if the guy just went away and worked on his lineout tasks he could be a World beater, I agree he was the hardest working Springbok forward against Wales.

Actually he was terrible at Albany Im pretty sure, couldnt hit a barn door with his throw ins but was fantastic in the return match at Newlands, standout performance of the year for me.

by No 7&1/2 Mon 04 Dec 2017, 9:28 am

Probably the same reason a few are yet to be sold on underhill being the second coming. Want to see more than tackling.

by Sgt_Pooly Mon 04 Dec 2017, 9:33 am

I didn't see that game Taylor so can't really comment. He may be a good tackler but he certainly isn't "easily the hardest tackler playing the game today". I'm quite confident in that one.

It sounds like a good defensive write-up, I think a top 7 should add more though. He's pretty low down on the pecking order when selecting a top openside imo.

by Sgt_Pooly Mon 04 Dec 2017, 9:35 am

I think your scrum has been rather good actually since you brought in Hanes & Laulala, 2 very good scrummagng props.

by Taylorman Mon 04 Dec 2017, 9:44 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Probably the same reason a few are yet to be sold on underhill being the second coming. Want to see more than tackling.

Yes thats where the under appreciation generally comes from and I thought that in Canes earlier tests but his impact cant be denied when hes knocking that many...21 tackles, and not just stops, most were end of movement hits that over time are going to make....particularly most inside backs....think twice about going into contact around the fringes. Hansens comments about going into the dark places are the unheralded impacts players like Cane have. The flashy backs aside, the Canes of the game are setting up the foundation for a win time after time.

by Sgt_Pooly Mon 04 Dec 2017, 9:46 am

I recall Haskell getting a similar review against Australia last Summer. He also smashed everything that moved and imo, is a harder tackler than Cane.

"It was the start of a momentous evening for Haskell. He made 18 tackles, which was twice as many as anyone else in the game (remarkably George Ford was next with nine, which was one more than a host of players including Pocock and Michael Hooper), completed three turnovers, even made a couple of stunning breaks, with one of them including a lesser-spotted left-footed sidestep in the lead up to Marland Yarde’s try, and generally “smashed” everything and everyone he could."

Haskell hits very hard and is a defensive freak at time. Not for minute would I suggest he's one of the best 7's in the game though.

by Taylorman Mon 04 Dec 2017, 9:46 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I didn't see that game Taylor so can't really comment. He may be a good tackler but he certainly isn't "easily the hardest tackler playing the game today". I'm quite confident in that one.

It sounds like a good defensive write-up, I think a top 7 should add more though. He's pretty low down on the pecking order when selecting a top openside imo.

Oh well, each to their own. Its good for us non NZers think like that. thumbsup

by No 7&1/2 Mon 04 Dec 2017, 9:46 am

It's about balance in the back row. As long as the other 2 are making up for it it's fine. It's certainly a step down from your previous back row but that was always going to happen.

by Taylorman Mon 04 Dec 2017, 9:51 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I recall Haskell getting a similar review against Australia last Summer. He also smashed everything that moved and imo, is a harder tackler than Cane.

"It was the start of a momentous evening for Haskell. He made 18 tackles, which was twice as many as anyone else in the game (remarkably George Ford was next with nine, which was one more than a host of players including Pocock and Michael Hooper), completed three turnovers, even made a couple of stunning breaks, with one of them including a lesser-spotted left-footed sidestep in the lead up to Marland Yarde’s try, and generally “smashed” everything and everyone he could."

Haskell hits very hard and is a defensive freak at time. Not for minute would I suggest he's one of the best 7's in the game though.

And I wouldnt say hes a harder tackler than Cane, nor is he a consistent 7, not even first selection, where Cane has been first choice since McCaw retired, but anyway, ones going in the right direction, the other?

Also dont think its a coincidence that Haskell is the only player of note in the NH that has spent a full Super rugby season in NZ, taking half the season to even get off the bench to start.

Anyway, as I said, each to his own.

by No 7&1/2 Mon 04 Dec 2017, 9:53 am

Symonds did to rave reviews as well.

by Sgt_Pooly Mon 04 Dec 2017, 9:55 am

Taylorman wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:I didn't see that game Taylor so can't really comment. He may be a good tackler but he certainly isn't "easily the hardest tackler playing the game today". I'm quite confident in that one.

It sounds like a good defensive write-up, I think a top 7 should add more though. He's pretty low down on the pecking order when selecting a top openside imo.

Oh well, each to their own. Its good for us non NZers think like that.

I don't know why it makes much difference either way tbh, not every player NZ has is the best in their position.

by Taylorman Mon 04 Dec 2017, 9:56 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:It's about balance in the back row. As long as the other 2 are making up for it it's fine. It's certainly a step down from your previous back row but that was always going to happen.

Yes weve tended to go for more athletic ball carriers since Canes taken over in Squire, Luatua, and Fifita where Reads still there as the genuine all rounder as an 8. Kaino has his issues but I think he'll miss the next World cup due to his lack of pace, mostly due to age. We just need to nail that six down as Cane will be the seven through to 2019 without a doubt. Like McCaw, a first name on the team sheet, with the locks, Smiths and Barrett, and now Ioane.

by Sgt_Pooly Mon 04 Dec 2017, 10:04 am

Taylorman wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:I recall Haskell getting a similar review against Australia last Summer. He also smashed everything that moved and imo, is a harder tackler than Cane.

"It was the start of a momentous evening for Haskell. He made 18 tackles, which was twice as many as anyone else in the game (remarkably George Ford was next with nine, which was one more than a host of players including Pocock and Michael Hooper), completed three turnovers, even made a couple of stunning breaks, with one of them including a lesser-spotted left-footed sidestep in the lead up to Marland Yarde’s try, and generally “smashed” everything and everyone he could."

Haskell hits very hard and is a defensive freak at time. Not for minute would I suggest he's one of the best 7's in the game though.

And I wouldnt say hes a harder tackler than Cane, nor is he a consistent 7, not even first selection, where Cane has been first choice since McCaw retired, but anyway, ones going in the right direction, the other?

Also dont think its a coincidence that Haskell is the only player of note in the NH that has spent a full Super rugby season in NZ, taking half the season to even get off the bench to start.

Anyway, as I said, each to his own.

Haskell is a harder tackler than Cane and I'm by no means a big Haskell fan. He was also first choice 7 for most of our winning streak so not quite sure what you mean.

I've at no point suggested Haskell is a better player than Cane if that is what you're pushing at? I think both are quite limited players who are plugging holes until their respective countries find somebody better. Both are quite average International flankers that are capable of a big defensive shift every now and again.

by Taylorman Mon 04 Dec 2017, 10:07 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote:
Taylorman wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:I didn't see that game Taylor so can't really comment. He may be a good tackler but he certainly isn't "easily the hardest tackler playing the game today". I'm quite confident in that one.

It sounds like a good defensive write-up, I think a top 7 should add more though. He's pretty low down on the pecking order when selecting a top openside imo.

Oh well, each to their own. Its good for us non NZers think like that.

I don't know why it makes much difference either way tbh, not every player NZ has is the best in their position.

True and far from it at the moment, weve tried something like 50 players in tests this year so this is certainly a foundation building year. Next year theyll start narrowing it down. In Retallick, the two Smiths, Barrett in some position, and I believe Cane is easily the best seven around today, partially because theres not a lot of solid competition in the position I think we have five or six, but are still trialling many.

I think our midfield has a lot of possibilities, but little consistency over a period amongst any of them. Ioane has come on, and Naholo is solid. Jordie barrett and Milner skudder need to push on next year after their injuries.

So at this point we're ok, but six, midfield need sorting the most. With Moody back I think we'll be fine scrum time, a good time for trying others, and we need a good back up lock or two if Sam or Brodie go down.

by Taylorman Mon 04 Dec 2017, 10:10 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote:
Taylorman wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:I recall Haskell getting a similar review against Australia last Summer. He also smashed everything that moved and imo, is a harder tackler than Cane.

"It was the start of a momentous evening for Haskell. He made 18 tackles, which was twice as many as anyone else in the game (remarkably George Ford was next with nine, which was one more than a host of players including Pocock and Michael Hooper), completed three turnovers, even made a couple of stunning breaks, with one of them including a lesser-spotted left-footed sidestep in the lead up to Marland Yarde’s try, and generally “smashed” everything and everyone he could."

Haskell hits very hard and is a defensive freak at time. Not for minute would I suggest he's one of the best 7's in the game though.

And I wouldnt say hes a harder tackler than Cane, nor is he a consistent 7, not even first selection, where Cane has been first choice since McCaw retired, but anyway, ones going in the right direction, the other?

Also dont think its a coincidence that Haskell is the only player of note in the NH that has spent a full Super rugby season in NZ, taking half the season to even get off the bench to start.

Anyway, as I said, each to his own.

Haskell is a harder tackler than Cane and I'm by no means a big Haskell fan. He was also first choice 7 for most of our winning streak so not quite sure what you mean.

I've at no point suggested Haskell is a better player than Cane if that is what you're pushing at? I think both are quite limited players who are plugging holes until their respective countries find somebody better. Both are quite average International flankers that are capable of a big defensive shift every now and again.

Well we just have to agree to disagree on Cane, as I dont think theres a better seven today, not even close. We arent looking for anyone else. Cane will be seven through to 2019 and will prove you wrong. Guarantee it.

by Sgt_Pooly Mon 04 Dec 2017, 10:14 am

Taylorman wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:
Taylorman wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:I didn't see that game Taylor so can't really comment. He may be a good tackler but he certainly isn't "easily the hardest tackler playing the game today". I'm quite confident in that one.

It sounds like a good defensive write-up, I think a top 7 should add more though. He's pretty low down on the pecking order when selecting a top openside imo.

Oh well, each to their own. Its good for us non NZers think like that.

I don't know why it makes much difference either way tbh, not every player NZ has is the best in their position.

True and far from it at the moment, weve tried something like 50 players in tests this year so this is certainly a foundation building year. Next year theyll start narrowing it down. In Retallick, the two Smiths, Barrett in some position, and I believe Cane is easily the best seven around today, partially because theres not a lot of solid competition in the position I think we have five or six, but are still trialling many.

I think you have a good shout in the following:

1.
2. Coles
3.
4. Retallick
5. Whitelock
6. Kaino
7.
8. Read

9. Smith
10. Barrett
11. Ioane
12. SBW (maybe)
13.
14.
15. Smith (maybe)

Cane is nowhere near imo but that's just me.

8-10 out of 15 genuine best in their position players is more than any other country can even get close to.

If I was going to suggest England's possibilities, I'd have maybe Itoje and Billy Vunipola....and I'd struggle to justify after that.

by Sgt_Pooly Mon 04 Dec 2017, 10:16 am

Well we just have to agree to disagree on Cane, as I dont think theres a better seven today, not even close. We arent looking for anyone else. Cane will be seven through to 2019 and will prove you wrong. Guarantee it

There's plenty better nevermind close!

Hooper, Pocock, Louw, Warburton, Tipuric, SOB - I'd take any of these over Cane personally.

But happy to agree to disagree.

by No 7&1/2 Mon 04 Dec 2017, 10:26 am

I feel a name your world 23 coming on.

by Taylorman Mon 04 Dec 2017, 10:26 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote:
Well we just have to agree to disagree on Cane, as I dont think theres a better seven today, not even close. We arent looking for anyone else. Cane will be seven through to 2019 and will prove you wrong. Guarantee it

There's plenty better nevermind close!

Hooper, Pocock, Louw, Warburton, Tipuric, SOB - I'd take any of these over Cane personally.

But happy to agree to disagree.

Hooper? Ok, that would get a bit of a laugh this end as hardly anyones of that opinion down this way. Hes too lightweight at the breakdown and doesnt suit the modern game. The rest either arent playing test rugby playing or have poor form, Tipuric not even nailing his spot for Wales in ages. So based on those playing test rugby in the last month, as everyone should have been, SOB would be the only Id rate close but Im not a fan of either his hit on Naholo or his post tour crying. Weak mentally. Warburtons ok but youve got to remember these guys keep turning up and keep getting beaten for a reason, Warburton must have lost 8 or 9 to the ABs and not outplayed his opposite, so its hard to see them as better.

by No 7&1/2 Mon 04 Dec 2017, 10:31 am

I think you're over rating your fella somewhat.

by Taylorman Mon 04 Dec 2017, 10:32 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:I think you're over rating your fella somewhat.

And so did Wales...

by Sgt_Pooly Mon 04 Dec 2017, 10:35 am

I don't think you need to playing in the last month be a better player, that's a slightly odd criteria. I wouldn't say Retallick isn't the best lock about just because he's failed to play in the last 3 games.

Hooper is slightly controversial but I'd take him over Cane any day of the week. I sometimes feel because he's outstanding in open play he gets knocked on other aspects that he's actually rather good at. His breakdown play is excellent and he carries well in the tight as well as hitting hard. He may not look physical, but he is.

I don't think not getting selected for your country automatically means your not a better player than somebody who is for another nation. A fine point being Jamie George who isn't selected for England but was deemed better than any other hooker on the Lions touring party.

by No 7&1/2 Mon 04 Dec 2017, 10:38 am

Wales over rated him? I don't understand your point.

by Sgt_Pooly Mon 04 Dec 2017, 10:43 am

Taylorman wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:I think you're over rating your fella somewhat.

And so did Wales...

Do you mean underrated him?

One swallow doesn't make a spring though.

I recall Ross Rennie against Australia in 2012 being a defensive rock. The lad put in 32 tackles with Scotland coming away with a famous win...again, not close to being one of the best 7's about.

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