Wales v South Africa 2nd December 2017

Wales v South Africa 2nd December 2017 - 2:30pm

Teams.....

Wales: Halfpenny; Amos, S Williams, H Parkes, S Evans; Biggar, A Davies; R Evans, Dacey, Andrews, Hill, A W Jones, Shingler, Navidi, Faletau.

Replacements: Dee, W Jones, R Jones, S Davies, Lydiate, Webb, Patchell, Watkin.

South Africa: Andries Coetzee; Dillyn Leyds, Jesse Kriel, Francois Venter, Warrick Gelant; Handré Pollard, Ross Cronje; Steven Kitshoff, Malcolm Marx, Wilco Louw, Eben Etzebeth, Lood de Jager, Siya Kolisi, Pieter-Steph du Toit, Dan du Preez.
Replacements: Bongi Mbonambi, Trevor Nyakane, Ruan Dreyer, Oupa Mohoje, Uzair Cassiem, Louis Schreuder, Elton Jantjies, Lukhanyo Am.








Head to Head - Played 32 - SA 28 wins - Wales 3 wins - 1 Draw

Last 5 Games.

Jun 2014, Durban - SA 38–16 Wales

Jun 2014, Nelspruit -  SA 31–30 Wales

Nov 2014, Cardiff -  Wales 12–6 SA

Oct 2015, London, - SA 23–19 Wales

Nov 2016 Cardiff - Wales 27–13 SA

 

News - Tighthead prop crises.  Owen Williams and Rhys Priestland also unavailable.

Ball out, requires should surgery.

Tipuric has a thigh injury and has returned to the Ospreys.

Rhys Webb must pass concussion protocols to face the Springboks.

So other than money, is there any good reason for playing this game with only Wales based players the weekend before a big round of European club matches...??

Seems madness to me and it is a good thing this SA team isn't very good just now!

RDW_Scotland wrote:So other than money, is there any good reason for playing this game with only Wales based players the weekend before a big round of European club matches...??

Seems madness to me and it is a good thing this SA team isn't very good just now!

It is just money. But then we moan about not being able to match teams in other league on players wages, so perhaps it's a necessary evil?

RDW_Scotland wrote:So other than money, is there any good reason for playing this game with only Wales based players the weekend before a big round of European club matches...??

Seems madness to me and it is a good thing this SA team isn't very good just now!

Great innit.
Weakened dim Wales followed immediately by understrength reejuns in Europe. Campaigns often effectively over before Xmas. Final 2 rounds meaningless. Then repeat next season. Not convinced this extra AI is that lucrative.

Cardiff Dave wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:So other than money, is there any good reason for playing this game with only Wales based players the weekend before a big round of European club matches...??

Seems madness to me and it is a good thing this SA team isn't very good just now!

Great innit.
Weakened dim Wales followed immediately by understrength reejuns in Europe. Campaigns often effectively over before Xmas. Final 2 rounds meaningless. Then repeat next season. Not convinced this extra AI is that lucrative.

But then I don't see any of our regions absolutely flying in the Champions Cup so far this season, do you?

Bath are set to be fined for allowing Faletau to play for Wales.

I hope the Welsh fans appreciate the sacrifice Bath are making.

chris_501 wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:So other than money, is there any good reason for playing this game with only Wales based players the weekend before a big round of European club matches...??

Seems madness to me and it is a good thing this SA team isn't very good just now!

Great innit.
Weakened dim Wales followed immediately by understrength reejuns in Europe. Campaigns often effectively over before Xmas. Final 2 rounds meaningless. Then repeat next season. Not convinced this extra AI is that lucrative.

But then I don't see any of our regions absolutely flying in the Champions Cup so far this season, do you?

No I don't, come to think of it. Nor last season either I guess. Or the season before that probably. That's another can of worms though. Welsh rugby see. Totally tonto.

TightHEAD wrote:Bath are set to be fined for allowing Faletau to play for Wales.

I hope the Welsh fans appreciate the sacrifice Bath are making.

Cheesed off Bath fans too, no doubt.
Hope the 4th AI is ditched when a new RSA/PA, or whatever they call it this time around, is sorted in the very near future.

I love the way these things work.  

Faletau, let's face it, would never have been at Bath in the first place if Bath didn't know about his exploits as a player in an International shirt.  

So these clubs that together create the rules of their Leagues in France or England, use International rugby a lot to scout for the future players of their choice - and then they say International gets in the way of their own yearly campaigns, is a nuisance, an obstacle, bad for business, a competitor for bums on seats and that they need to be handsomely compensated whenever they allow a player to play for his Nation, and that clubs within their structure have to be fined for relaxing their hold on said players

Hypocritical basterdes. They all watch the AI season with greedy eyes, wondering which player to pick from the sweetshop and how much his wonder-touches are worth.

SecretFly wrote:I love the way these things work.  

Faletau, let's face it, would never have been at Bath in the first place if Bath didn't know about his exploits as a player in an International shirt.  

So these clubs that together create the rules of their Leagues in France or England, use International rugby a lot to scout for the future players of their choice - and then they say International gets in the way of their own yearly campaigns, is a nuisance, an obstacle, bad for business, a competitor for bums on seats and that they need to be handsomely compensated whenever they allow a player to play for his Nation, and that clubs within their structure have to be fined for relaxing their hold on said players

Hypocritical basterdes.  They all watch the AI season with greedy eyes, wondering which player to pick from the sweetshop and how much his wonder-touches are worth.

It has been done to death though. Everybody is (or should be, barring the odd French owner) happy with the international window. It helps to keep their prime assets in the public eye and its good motivation for the players. It is what happens outside of those windows that is the problem, particularly when England are paying for access to their players outside of the window and, in this case, Wales are asking to do the same for free.

Cardiff Dave wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:Bath are set to be fined for allowing Faletau to play for Wales.

I hope the Welsh fans appreciate the sacrifice Bath are making.

Cheesed off Bath fans too, no doubt.
Hope the 4th AI is ditched when a new RSA/PA, or whatever they call it this time around, is sorted in the very near future.

Isn't the 4th game Roger Lewis' doing so that he could've paid off Barclays quicker or is something we signed up to with Under Armour ?

No Ball or Tipuric. Backrow stays the same, with Lydiate benching I'd assume.
Hill into the second row with either Beard or Seb Davies onto the bench.

The bad news is that Andrews is eligible to play.

SecretFly wrote:I love the way these things work.  

Faletau, let's face it, would never have been at Bath in the first place if Bath didn't know about his exploits as a player in an International shirt.  

So these clubs that together create the rules of their Leagues in France or England, use International rugby a lot to scout for the future players of their choice - and then they say International gets in the way of their own yearly campaigns, is a nuisance, an obstacle, bad for business, a competitor for bums on seats and that they need to be handsomely compensated whenever they allow a player to play for his Nation, and that clubs within their structure have to be fined for relaxing their hold on said players

Hypocritical basterdes.  They all watch the AI season with greedy eyes, wondering which player to pick from the sweetshop and how much his wonder-touches are worth.

It's WRU that causes the chaos by organising matches outside the official window. If they didn't do that then everything would be ok. They claim it's to pay off stadium debts and pay player wages but as far as I'm aware other Unions have those pressures and don't feel the need to ruin the season every year.

Bath knew what they were taking on. They saw Faletau's demands - what this needs is World Rugby to state that player contracts cannot demand that a player is released outside of the window. Although how that stacks up in employment law I don't know. Were they really not going to sign him on the basis of 1 game? They can afford the fine but it's just a farce that Faletau / WRU can hold a club to ransom like that.

Its shocking as Bath fans will have to foot the bill no doubt once Bruce passes it on to us. Thankfully Toby is a good bloke and we love him.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

It's WRU that causes the chaos by organising matches outside the official window. If they didn't do that then everything would be ok. They claim it's to pay off stadium debts and pay player wages but as far as I'm aware other Unions have those pressures and don't feel the need to ruin the season every year.

Bath knew what they were taking on. They saw Faletau's demands - what this needs is World Rugby to state that player contracts cannot demand that a player is released outside of the window. Although how that stacks up in employment law I don't know. Were they really not going to sign him on the basis of 1 game? They can afford the fine but it's just a farce that Faletau / WRU can hold a club to ransom like that.

The IRFU are currently considering a 2nd test v NZ outside the international window in a neutral venue in Europe next November. They will probably seek the provinces permission first though.

Collapse2005 wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

It's WRU that causes the chaos by organising matches outside the official window. If they didn't do that then everything would be ok. They claim it's to pay off stadium debts and pay player wages but as far as I'm aware other Unions have those pressures and don't feel the need to ruin the season every year.

Bath knew what they were taking on. They saw Faletau's demands - what this needs is World Rugby to state that player contracts cannot demand that a player is released outside of the window. Although how that stacks up in employment law I don't know. Were they really not going to sign him on the basis of 1 game? They can afford the fine but it's just a farce that Faletau / WRU can hold a club to ransom like that.

The IRFU are currently considering a 2nd test v NZ outside the international window in a neutral venue in Europe next November. They will probably seek the provinces permission first though.

Will that be at the beginning of the window or at the end?

England have one every 2nd year but their clubs are compensated handsomely for it. Wales just plough on with money signs in their eyes.

Playing a 4th game in a neutral venue seems to make even less sense, as you are not going to get nearly the same amount of revenue from it and your players will just take the hit. 4 internationals in 4 weeks is bonkers, albeit there will be a bit of rotation.

Saturday's game is going to be a battered Welsh team against a completely knackered South African one. It is hard to see it being a compelling spectacle.

Scarlets did have a chance of Euro knockout qualification this year. They have made it hard for themselves but were not out of it yet. It is very hard to see how this game has helped their cause.

I'd assume Gatland is in the background saying this kind of schedule is required and more accurately mimics a real WC. I do think there is more than money informing these extra games that Wales play. I really do think it's that workaholic mindset of Warren Gatland influencing WRU decisions behind the scenes. He wants more coaching time with his Internationals... not less.

SecretFly wrote:I'd assume Gatland is in the background saying this kind of schedule is required and more accurately mimics a real WC.  I do think there is more than money informing these extra games that Wales play.  I really do think it's that workaholic mindset of Warren Gatland influencing WRU decisions behind the scenes.  He wants more coaching time with his Internationals... not less.

He clearly would not seem to be one bit bothered about how the Welsh regions get on at Euro level either then.

Hard to see how performing well in these competitions would not help Welsh players and teams. Some of these games can be just as, or even more intense than test matches.

Still, what do I know?

TightHEAD wrote:Its shocking as Bath fans will have to foot the bill no doubt once Bruce passes it on to us. Thankfully Toby is a good bloke and we love him.

Still desperately trying to be relevant

BigGee wrote:

SecretFly wrote:I'd assume Gatland is in the background saying this kind of schedule is required and more accurately mimics a real WC.  I do think there is more than money informing these extra games that Wales play.  I really do think it's that workaholic mindset of Warren Gatland influencing WRU decisions behind the scenes.  He wants more coaching time with his Internationals... not less.

He clearly would not seem to be one bit bothered about how the Welsh regions get on at Euro level either then.

Hard to see how performing well in these competitions would not help Welsh players and teams. Some of these games can be just as, or even more intense than test matches.

Still, what do I know?

It's not exactly a secret how much he values Regional rugby though, at any level. For him, in his mind, he's always brought players up to grade in International camp much more than he's ever had them come in to camp ready and pumped to meet the efforts of his gameplans. He likes the idea of doing things for himself to get his players ready for these International campaigns.
I'm not saying he's right - I'm not even saying he's wrong - I think he's a good coach with an intense view of his role - but I am saying I feel he has a big part in the decisions of WRU to stretch out their AI series.

Parkes looks handy. A back line of Biggar, Parkes, JD2, North, Williams and somebody with real gas on the other wing could be very interesting if only we can get everyone fit.

Gwlad wrote:Parkes looks handy. A back line of Biggar Priestland, Parkes, JD2, North, Williams and somebody with real gas Amos on the other wing could be very interesting if only we can get everyone fit.

Fixed

munkian wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:Bath are set to be fined for allowing Faletau to play for Wales.

I hope the Welsh fans appreciate the sacrifice Bath are making.

Cheesed off Bath fans too, no doubt.
Hope the 4th AI is ditched when a new RSA/PA, or whatever they call it this time around, is sorted in the very near future.

Isn't the 4th game Roger Lewis' doing so that he could've paid off Barclays quicker or is something we signed up to with Under Armour ?

Maybe Dodger's doings, but the reejuns would've agreed to it, I spose.

Cardiff Dave wrote:

munkian wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:Bath are set to be fined for allowing Faletau to play for Wales.

I hope the Welsh fans appreciate the sacrifice Bath are making.

Cheesed off Bath fans too, no doubt.
Hope the 4th AI is ditched when a new RSA/PA, or whatever they call it this time around, is sorted in the very near future.

Isn't the 4th game Roger Lewis' doing so that he could've paid off Barclays quicker or is something we signed up to with Under Armour ?

Maybe Dodger's doings, but the reejuns would've agreed to it, I spose.

Possibly, but maybe that's because they weren't getting much else from the WRU at the time ?

Apparently the 4th game makes us just over 2 million extra though.

munkian wrote:

Gwlad wrote:Parkes looks handy. A back line of Biggar Priestland, Parkes, JD2, North, Williams and somebody with real gas Amos on the other wing could be very interesting if only we can get everyone fit.

Fixed

We are starting to develop some depth on the wings, to the extent that hopefully Cuthbert has had his time in a Welsh shirt.

It would be nice if Hewitt or Giles can really push on to make the 6N squad.

chris_501 wrote:

munkian wrote:

Gwlad wrote:Parkes looks handy. A back line of Biggar Priestland, Parkes, JD2, North, Williams and somebody with real gas Amos on the other wing could be very interesting if only we can get everyone fit.

Fixed

We are starting to develop some depth on the wings, to the extent that hopefully Cuthbert has had his time in a Welsh shirt.

It would be nice if Hewitt or Giles can really push on to make the 6N squad.

Injury has knackered both of them to some extent.

I can see Griffiths making a push again come the six nations, especially if Sam is still injured. Moriarty should be back by then too and Navidi has made a solid claim to the 7 shirt.

SecretFly wrote:I love the way these things work.  

Faletau, let's face it, would never have been at Bath in the first place if Bath didn't know about his exploits as a player in an International shirt.  

Piffle. It makes just as much sense to say that international teams leech off the club game. Wales did not develop the talents of say Ross Moriarty, Gloucester did that.  All the international teams use the Aviva Premiership clubs to scout for future International players. I do not criticise the international teams for this but it is a two way street and to suggest otherwise is nonsense.

SecretFly wrote:
So these clubs that together create the rules of their Leagues in France or England, use International rugby a lot to scout for the future players of their choice - and then they say International gets in the way of their own yearly campaigns, is a nuisance, an obstacle, bad for business, a competitor for bums on seats and that they need to be handsomely compensated whenever they allow a player to play for his Nation, and that clubs within their structure have to be fined for relaxing their hold on said players

Hypocritical basterdes.  They all watch the AI season with greedy eyes, wondering which player to pick from the sweetshop and how much his wonder-touches are worth.

All the PRL are asking is that everybody sticks to the agreements they have made.  Bath have agreed with the other teams not to release players and have done so. Through World Rugby everybody has agreed the international windows and Wales are operating outside that agreement.

I fail to see why you criticise those who keep to agreements rather than those who break them. Bath's actions in particular are dishonest. They have contracted with PRL to keep to the rules and made a contradictory contract with Faletau. They will be very lucky to get away with a large fine as  PRL warned teams after the Northampton - George North incident that points might be deducted.

munkian wrote:

Gwlad wrote:Parkes looks handy. A back line of Biggar Priestland, Parkes, JD2, North, Williams and somebody with real gas Amos on the other wing could be very interesting if only we can get everyone fit.

Fixed

i'd settle for that but Priestland needs to be consistent and better in possession; he started to get so isolated so easily and was a liability ball in hand.

I'd like to see him come good just not sure he has the confidence to deal with harder days at the office, a bit like ebop who thought Beauden Barrett wasn't up to much this year

Ands lets face it we all want a Hewitt or Giles but they aint Shane and since Cuffbert is an Eggbert and ought never to play for Wales again, Amos seems to be the best of a bad bunch.

Other issue we have is AWJ's partner; Ball is a journeyman but i dont rate him, i'd like to see a younger player come on and clam that spot.

Back row looks superb at the moment but front row creaking once Evans Owens and Lee out of the frame.

Is gats banking on Webb leaving Toulon just before RWC otherwise WTF is the point of picking him.

Gwlad wrote: i'd settle for that but Priestland needs to be consistent and better in possession; he started to get so isolated so easily and was a liability ball in hand.

I'd like to see him come good just not sure he has the confidence to deal with harder days at the office...

....which hasn't happened in years and probably never will. The Priestland dream has long been over - ya'll need to move on. Yeah getting isolated easily and being a liability is the norm, as it is for Cuthbert whilst Aled Davies is slow at passing running and thinking.

Yeah that second statement is a bit warmer.

Wales: Halfpenny; Amos, S Williams, H Parkes, S Evans; Biggar, A Davies; R Evans, Dacey, Andrews, Hill, A W Jones, Shingler, Navidi, Faletau.

Replacements: Dee, W Jones, R Jones, S Davies, Lydiate, Webb, Patchell, Watkin.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/42172246

Hill to be blamed for the pack getting a kicking then. Nothing to with Andrews or Dacey...

I find the criticism of Hill very harsh. He has never let anybody down in a Team Wales shirt, yet is the one who is getting flak.

Considering some of those people go up the wall (on twitter) when people criticise Priestland and Cuthbert, it's very hypocritical.

From what I've seen on Twitter (and I know it all depends on who you follow) it looks like he's won a few people over.

RiscaGame wrote:I find the criticism of Hill very harsh. He has never let anybody down in a Team Wales shirt, yet is the one who is getting flak.

Considering some of those people go up the wall (on twitter) when people criticise Priestland and Cuthbert, it's very hypocritical.

Agreed. Hes a solid enough player, no one claims he sets the pitch alight but he does little wrong and has a big engine.

Then you get very average players like Dacey starting who can't scrummage particularly well and that's fine because...Cardiff ?

And you can't criticize Cuthbert because he was very good in 2013.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:From what I've seen on Twitter (and I know it all depends on who you follow) it looks like he's won a few people over.

I can see the point of why some would rather Seb Davies, as I've said as much. But when people are saying what does he do etc, that's a bit much.

What's even better is when people imply that Dragons players are only getting selected because we're WRU-owned. As if Gatland would stand for someone else telling him who to pick!

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:What's even better is when people imply that Dragons players are only getting selected because we're WRU-owned. As if Gatland would stand for someone else telling him who to pick!

The ones capped before WRU 'ownership' are different though, obvs

Can't see Wales losing this one.

I like the bench for this game, apart from Rh Jones obvs, but it's how it should have been since day 1. SA were much worse last year however they were still really strong - we shouldn't write them off especially as they have momentum coming into this game.

Well Wales are playing very well...but jeez how poor are South Africa.

They look defensively like they have never played together before!

Wales could get a record win if they keep playing clever varied rugby.

Great start Wales but feck me SA rugby is in a bad way. Wales should be looking to put a big score on!

PS am I the only one who doesn't buyin to all this Etzebeth hype train bullsh!t...?

He's a big strong guy yes...but I think theres a lot of home nation locks who a quite a bit better!

RDW_Scotland wrote:Great start Wales but feck me SA rugby is in a bad way. Wales should be looking to put a big score on!

Good minds RDW... ha ha

Where does momentum stop and 2nd movement start. As that effort looks like a double movement to me...

SA show a bit of bite!

Wales scratch team playing well, Bigger pulling the strings excellently.

Sorry to stay, but SA are bloody awful. Their backs are utter dross. Past Marx and Etzebeth, their pack aren't anything special either. Wales really should be more ahead.

Faleatau looked in front to me!

Wow cracking try!

Gwlad wrote:

munkian wrote:

Gwlad wrote:Parkes looks handy. A back line of Biggar Priestland, Parkes, JD2, North, Williams and somebody with real gas Amos on the other wing could be very interesting if only we can get everyone fit.

Fixed

i'd settle for that but Priestland needs to be consistent and better in possession; he started to get so isolated so easily and was a liability ball in hand.

I'd like to see him come good just not sure he has the confidence to deal with harder days at the office, a bit like ebop who thought Beauden Barrett wasn't up to much this year

Ands lets face it we all want a Hewitt or Giles but they aint Shane and since Cuffbert is an Eggbert  and ought never to play for Wales again, Amos seems to be the best of a bad bunch.

Other issue we have is AWJ's partner; Ball is a journeyman but i dont rate him, i'd like to see a younger player come on and clam that spot.

Back row looks superb at the moment but front row creaking once Evans Owens and Lee out of the frame.

Is gats banking on Webb leaving Toulon just before RWC otherwise WTF is the point of picking him.

Good to see our Blues has been Hadleigh Parkes helping your side out with a couple of tries so far. No need to thank us, I mean someones gotta score them I suppose.