The Ashes: 2nd Test, Adelaide

First topic message reminder :

2nd Test Adelaide, December 2-6, 2017

Australia:
Bancroft, Warner, Khawaja, Smith *, Handscomb, S Marsh, Paine †, Starc, Cummins, Lyon, Hazelwood

England:
Cook, Stoneman, Vince, Root *, Malan, Ali, Bairstow †, Woakes, Overton, Broad, Anderson

A lot to digest in that post of Gooseberry's...and some good points.

I'll take issue on one matter : this stuff about the pace bowling.  Now it is true that fast bowlers in England , as a general rule , are more noted for movement ( though I'd dispute that this is purely off the seam : Anderson is the best , but far from the only exponent of swing bowling)  rather than raw pace... This has been the case for a long time. And if it is in fact encouraged by coaches - well , the Test team plays more games in England , where the conditions suit , than any other place : does it not make some sense to maximize the appropriate skills ? Just as Australia might prefer fast bowlers and India a mix of spinners ...
Right at the moment there are not any express bowlers that I know of near the England squad. There weren't in 2010/11 either and it didn't  stop them winning 3-1 in Australia ; because the batsmen turned up and made big scores , regularly. The bowlers were quite skilled enough to do the job : and I believe this lot are too if they are ever given a bit of scoreboard pressure to aid them .
Not to say it wouldn't be good to get a quicker one in for balance ( and/or a left armer) : but if you don't have one... Wood may not be a world beater , but he's quick. And frequently injured. Lets get him fit and see what happens. TRJ isn't that quick but his bounce would have been handy : but for now the problem really isn't that they can't bowl Australia out (though Perth might be tricky if it's as flat as it has been lately) so much as they can't pass 230 even on benign pitches .
Spinners are another matter. Haven't been many good ones recently : no coincidence Swann was a key player when they became the number one Test team.  Moeen can do a job at home ; but he battles a bit when the seamers are less dominant overseas so one must hope for a full time spinner in the near future. It might be Crane ; it might be Bess...it will not happen overnight so no use moaning about it.

The team is not rubbish. They can (despite glaring holes in the batting lineup) beat anyone in their own conditions ; and they certainly aren't the only team to struggle overseas. In fact I'm not sure that any team is particularly good at touring these days...

Right now they're up against it .  The absence of Stokes was a hammer blow to their chances as the structure of the side was largely built around him : look how less effective Bairstow and Moeen have been with the bat : coincidence ?
I still hope they can battle back ; and if not win the series at least keep it alive for a while.  They are making the right noises ; have to back it up now.

For the medium term I reckon finding two new batsmen capable of playing proper Test innings in the top five...and getting Stokes back out of virtual prison and back in whites ...would solve most of the problems.

Winning in Australia still wouldn't be easy , of course.

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:Is Crane actually good enough to play? Is he a leggy? Will any of them turn now? Is Moeen injured, out of rhythm or not good enough to get what he needs in these conditions?

Crane is a leggie, he's promising but I'm not sure he's good enough to make any sort of difference yet. I would imagine we'll see him in Sydney...

Moeen is injured, which has knocked him out of rhythm. Missing the warm up games was big i think (and I don't think you can just get over a side strain in two weeks...), then an injury to his spinning finger to add to that. He hasn't played in Aus before, so missing out on that chance to get used to conditions was tough. I think on form he would be fine in these conditions (nowhere near as good as Lyon, which BT commentators still don't seem to grasp, bizarrely)

His batting has been disappointing mind.

Batting at six instead of seven or eight has really messed with Moeen , it seems. Maybe it is really more to do with lack of lead up play...but he keeps getting out to Lyon rather than to his supposed weakness against fast bowling...
As to his bowling : he isn't in Lyon's class , unfortunately . But if he were fully fit I reckon he'd be doing better ; at least in holding an end to rotate the pacers.

Can't escape the feeling Crane has always been seen as "here for experience". A questionable policy.

If he plays in a (presumably dead rubber) in Sydney will it do him any good ? Didn't do a lot for Borthwick though he actually got the best figures for an England leggie since before colour television

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:Is Crane actually good enough to play? Is he a leggy? Will any of them turn now? Is Moeen injured, out of rhythm or not good enough to get what he needs in these conditions?

No
Yes ...also see point 1
Lyon gets turn. Moeens returns through his career dont seem to have had a great correlation to how much of a turner a pitch is, hes actuyally struggled wuite a few times in what were in theory spin friendly conditions. If there was a real turner coming up then Crane might be worth the risk, but its unlikely anywheres going to be a spinners paradaise. Talk is the next wicket will be very flat ( probably explains Marshs call up to with Aus assuming they will have to bowl a lot more overs) ...whether its turning or not having a spinner who can deliver 20+ overs without getting hammered and picking up the odd wicket will make a huge difference. Moeen is less likely to get smashed out of the attack than Crane is IMO, and certainly they will have a spinned in the side
England are adamant that he was fit for teh secodn test, and have made him captain for the 2 dayer at the weekend. He had a finger issue in the firts test which was blamed for his inability to get the sort of turn Lyon was, and a side strain before that. The evidence and speculation is at odds with what the england camp are saying. Hes also just not very good, fit or otherwise.

http://www.news.com.au/sport/breaking-news/bbc-cricket-commentator-jonathan-agnew-caught-jaywalking-on-deserted-adelaide-street/news-story/68c6d6cee0dcf2068133ea7606b4098e

Alfie: "Can't escape the feeling Crane has always been seen as "here for experience". A questionable policy."
   This happens far too often on England tours - the inclusion of a player in the squad who is simply not up, yet, to playing in a Test. If you're not good enough/ready for Test cricket, you should not be chosen for the tour.
   Can't help feeling that this is going to be 5-0 now. The big disappointment was not Adelaide, but Brisbane. When Aus were 209 for seven, or what ever it was in that first innings, THAT was the time for England to get ahead.

Adil Rashid carried drinks for years...and turned out all that experience didnt make him any use. And following comments at the start of teh tour it does seem Bayliss sees him as a development player

He's inexperienced and still has a fair bit to learn. One of those reasons he's on this tour is that we think he'll be a very good bowler in years to come. He's got to start somewhere and if it's here during the Ashes then so be it

England seem to have an obsession with leg spinners, despite all the evidence showing that they are pretty much extinct in tests and that they are incapable of producing one who can truely justify long term selection. 

Meanwhile theres a mature left arm spinner whos taken a good haul of wickets two summers in a row in the CC (yeah I know I keep pointing out how meaningless that can be) who cant get a look in. 

From what Ive read that decision split the England camp, Crane was a borderline selection. Id be interested to understand the logic ... he may well be ahead in terms of limited overs selection but how on earth they think hes viable in Australia as anything other than a desperation "try to make something happen" option I dont know.
It appears that hes Bayliss' pick based on his " charachter" and "fiestiness". And yeah OK maybe theres some call for some combative players who are going to step up in the face of Australian aggression, but its kinda hard to do that effectively when youre getting thumped on the field and dont have the personal skill to turn a series. Stokes gets away with it by being the kind of player who can make big impacts in all 3 disciplines and worries the opposition. Crane getting uppity would just make the Aussies laugh.


The justification for not taking Leach in the winter was that he'd really only just burst onto the scene and had one good season, which was fair enough, and hadnt gone through the england system. I accpet that totally but then doesnt that apply to Crane now, hes hardly a mature cricketer ready to step straight into the Ashes cauldron. 1 wicket in two T20s hardly makes him Shane Warne. 

Maybe they do see more potential in Crane than Leach for the long term, but we really need a spinner in the short term. And evidence from across the globe shows that left arm finger spinners are very much a force in test cricket on all types of wicket ...leg spinners not. I really cant help feeling they are barking up the wrong tree with him or barking too soon as a minimum. Its as bad as Aus getting reduced to picking Agar when he was still in nappies, although he could at least bat.

Bairstow the latest to say something about Aus' sledging. Not sure what they're saying but it's clearly got their attention over the usual dross

I was prevented from watching live England's capitulation on the last day by a truly terrible 24 hour bug (I won't go into further details and, in any case, they would need to be posted after the watershed). However, I have since seen the highlights.

I feel posters here as usual have generally hit the right tone in being disappointed but none too surprised whilst resisting the call for wholescale changes and sackings. We have to play the hand we hold. Some surprisingly good measured comments from Goose in particular on that theme.

Just the odd observation on the last day and what has followed.

Regulars will know I'm never keen on nightwatchmen. I won't go again here into the pluses and many minuses as I see it of the role but one consequence in this Test was that Bairstow was relegated down the order to number 8 and very soon had no one to bat around him. As I posted and feared at the time when Woakes went in, that was a waste.

In the post match interviews, Smith seemed honest and willing to reconsider his tactics for the future in acknowledging he may have got ''not enforcing the follow on'' wrong. Perhaps easier to be open when you have won but, by contrast, Root came across as stubborn and adopting an unhealthy siege mentality in sticking to his ''bowl first'' decision.

Moeen has clearly struggled. I do not understand at all the rationale of him being the sole England player from this Test to be chosen (as captain) for the two day practice game coming up at the weekend. Sure, his fitness needs to be checked but don't do that by seeing how he gets on in another game. Let the medics / physios check the guy over and, assuming he's ok, then let him net a bit and rest. If Moeen can't continue, we have a serious problem in that we are losing another allrounder when the loss of Stokes has already been one too many. I expect Goose to slaughter me for the suggestion but I would give serious thought to calling up Dawson if Moeen is likely to stay crocked - he is probably the nearest like for like replacement and would on paper help balance the side although there'll inevitably be concerns as to his quality on grass.

I agree with the comments here about Crane. I like him a lot but believe he should be getting experience now with the Lions rather than carrying drinks for the Test side. I don't see him as a replacement for Moeen in this series due to his (Crane's) far lesser ability with the bat.

I see there are increasing calls for Foakes to come in as keeper with Bairstow moving up the order to replace a batsman, probably Vince. Foakes is a fine keeper and a handy batsman so it may work as a short term measure but I don't see it as a long term answer. If we are going to drop a batsman, we really need to replace him with a batsman. Bringing in an extra keeper and juggling the order seems to me as something of a cop out.

Gooseberry wrote:Adil Rashid carried drinks for years...and turned out all that experience didnt make him any use. And following comments at the start of teh tour it does seem Bayliss sees him as a development player

He's inexperienced and still has a fair bit to learn. One of those reasons he's on this tour is that we think he'll be a very good bowler in years to come. He's got to start somewhere and if it's here during the Ashes then so be it

England seem to have an obsession with leg spinners, despite all the evidence showing that they are pretty much extinct in tests and that they are incapable of producing one who can truely justify long term selection. 

Meanwhile theres a mature left arm spinner whos taken a good haul of wickets two summers in a row in the CC (yeah I know I keep pointing out how meaningless that can be) who cant get a look in. 

From what Ive read that decision split the England camp, Crane was a borderline selection. Id be interested to understand the logic ... he may well be ahead in terms of limited overs selection but how on earth they think hes viable in Australia as anything other than a desperation "try to make something happen" option I dont know.
It appears that hes Bayliss' pick based on his " charachter" and "fiestiness". And yeah OK maybe theres some call for some combative players who are going to step up in the face of Australian aggression, but its kinda hard to do that effectively when youre getting thumped on the field and dont have the personal skill to turn a series. Stokes gets away with it by being the kind of player who can make big impacts in all 3 disciplines and worries the opposition. Crane getting uppity would just make the Aussies laugh.


The justification for not taking Leach in the winter was that he'd really only just burst onto the scene and had one good season, which was fair enough, and hadnt gone through the england system. I accpet that totally but then doesnt that apply to Crane now, hes hardly a mature cricketer ready to step straight into the Ashes cauldron. 1 wicket in two T20s hardly makes him Shane Warne. 

Maybe they do see more potential in Crane than Leach for the long term, but we really need a spinner in the short term. And evidence from across the globe shows that left arm finger spinners are very much a force in test cricket on all types of wicket ...leg spinners not. I really cant help feeling they are barking up the wrong tree with him or barking too soon as a minimum. Its as bad as Aus getting reduced to picking Agar when he was still in nappies, although he could at least bat.

Having watched Jack Leach bowl at Essex (albeit a small sample size), and his figures with the Lions so far - he is nowhere near ready for selection for test cricket. Yes, great you're taking wickets on doctored Taunton pitches where you can bring a spinner on after 6 overs on day one, but that doesn't translate to Australian conditions. If we were touring India/UAE, maybe give him a go - but from what I've seen Leach *needs* conditions to suit him to be half effective, otherwise he's essentially a 50mph medium pacer...

Moeen won't bowl in that two day game he is captaining due to the finger injury - which makes you question why he is even playing again if he can't bowl!

Going into the series there were three new batsmen in (well new to the Ashes) in Vince, Malan and Stoneman. Although Vince impressed in the first innings in Sydney he lacks the mental aptitude to leave wide deliveries and battle through to score big. Stoneman has done passably well outscoring Cook in the openers stakes and Malan has shown a decent amount of fight so would have no problem with Stoneman and Malan keeping their spots but less so Vince. The problem is the glaring option is Ballance who does not exude confidence in me either.

The bowling attack is clearly lacking in the spin department but don't see any other options out there.

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Moeen won't bowl in that two day game he is captaining due to the finger injury - which makes you question why he is even playing again if he can't bowl!

Needs the batting practice ? Not entirely facetious : he missed too much of the warm up and perhaps it's showing. But if his finger is so bad he still can't bowl properly then I agree with guildford they should be calling up Dawson. He wouldn't win a Test but he might help not lose one ; and if he had a poor game anyway it probably wouldn't be as bad for future prospects as if Crane came in and got murdered (like Kerrigan ...never seen again)
I knew Moeen wouldn't have a big impact with the ball in Australia ; but I thought he'd do better than he has , and do believe injury has played a part in his below-par efforts so far. Fair to say Joe and his troops haven't had the best of luck on this trip...

Not a lot they can do with the batting. I do think swapping YJB and Moeen would be sensible - it seems Root , for some reason , disagrees ? I would not put Joe at three ; but theycould swap Vince and Malan...problem being it really bunches up the left handers (of whom they arguably have too many anyway - though Lyon wouldn't agree

Aussies adding MMarsh suggests they are expecting a flat WACA , as per recent games. Might make winning even harder for England : but just might give them a chance of drawing it if they can bat long enough. I wouldn't knock that as a secondary aim as the big city Tests have generally been kinder to England touring teams over the years and 2-2 would retain the urn.

(Yeah , I know : long odds. But while there's life...

alfie wrote:
The team is not rubbish. They can (despite glaring holes in the batting lineup) beat anyone in their own conditions ; and they certainly aren't the only team to struggle overseas. In fact I'm not sure that any team is particularly good at touring these days...

From cricinfo:

Away stats for teams since Jan 2013* (Min 10 Tests)

Team	Mat	W/L	Ratio	Bat ave	Bowl ave
India	24	8/8	1.00	36.19	35.46
South Africa	21	7/8	0.88	27.50	28.38
Sri Lanka	25	7/12	0.58	31.41	38.26
Pakistan	24	8/15	0.53	29.59	33.67
Australia	32	10/19	0.53	30.42	31.99
New Zealand	24	6/13	0.46	32.10	40.02
England	27	4/16	0.25	29.54	38.24
Bangladesh	13	2/10	0.20	27.88	52.59
West Indies	22	3/15	0.20	25.50	45.99

Englands away form has been truely awful for a side that was and aspires to be number 1 in the world.
Interestingly though the cricinfo article focuses on the batting rather than the bowling. All three of the decent batsmen ( Cook, Root and Bairstow) have had far superior averages at home to their away ones in this period. Thats a big change for Cook, who used to be famously bad at home and good away...look at the difference between this tour and 2011.
Cooks average in away tests in the last couple of years is half what it was up to 2012. The decline is pretty incredible. Maybe thats partly down to the pressure of not having Strauss and Trott alongside side him and watching a succession of players fail.

The senior 3 avergae 35 less away than they do at home in this period. That may partly be down to better performing opposition bowlers but really the difference is startling.

So OK its not just our bowlers. But I do beleive the problem is real, and also that theres a number of players in the side who are makeweights and not really test class. Its really not a very good test side in a time when theres not that much quality around. India are head and shoulders above the rest currently.

I would be in favour of replacing Ali with Ballance for the next test.

I appreciate this is unlikely to happen, but Ali is offering very little with his bowling and Perth is hardly conducive to spin at the best of times. Get a specialist batsman in to reinforce the run-makers; no England batsman has made a century in this series, yet, whilst Australia have had two - both of which were innings key to their victories.

Hmm Ballance flops with the bat and you are totally screwed. At least Ali may retrieve things with an odd wicket or two or at least he offers rest for the pace attack whilst he bowls. Ballance scored just one run in the match going on just now and Foakes scored two runs. Wood another touted for a game in the third test picked up a duck.

Apparently Duckett has been pulled from the gsme for being naughty on Thursday night. It sounds pretty minor butbin context of recent events very eye rolling.

A more plausible bowling change would be to drop Ali for another pace bowler such as Jake Ball and have Joe Root bowl more overs to take the strain from the pace attack. First over Mark Wood has just bowled has bern smacked for 11 runs.

Gooseberry wrote:Apparently Duckett has been pulled from the gsme for being naughty on Thursday night. It sounds pretty minor butbin context of recent events very eye rolling.

What a pillock.

First night the curfew has been lifted, senior players were there.

Bayliss gonna oversee a 5-0 and a lot of behaviour problems. Questions gonna be asked

guildfordbat wrote:I was prevented from watching live England's capitulation on the last day by a truly terrible 24 hour bug (I won't go into further details and, in any case, they would need to be posted after the watershed). However, I have since seen the highlights.

I feel posters here as usual have generally hit the right tone in being disappointed but none too surprised whilst resisting the call for wholescale changes and sackings. We have to play the hand we hold. Some surprisingly good measured comments from Goose in particular on that theme.

Just the odd observation on the last day and what has followed.

Regulars will know I'm never keen on nightwatchmen. I won't go again here into the pluses and many minuses as I see it of the role but one consequence in this Test was that Bairstow was relegated down the order to number 8 and very soon had no one to bat around him. As I posted and feared at the time when Woakes went in, that was a waste.

In the post match interviews, Smith seemed honest and willing to reconsider his tactics for the future in acknowledging he may have got ''not enforcing the follow on'' wrong. Perhaps easier to be open when you have won but, by contrast, Root came across as stubborn and adopting an unhealthy siege mentality in sticking to his ''bowl first'' decision.

Moeen has clearly struggled. I do not understand at all the rationale of him being the sole England player from this Test to be chosen (as captain) for the two day practice game coming up at the weekend. Sure, his fitness needs to be checked but don't do that by seeing how he gets on in another game. Let the medics / physios check the guy over and, assuming he's ok, then let him net a bit and rest. If Moeen can't continue, we have a serious problem in that we are losing another allrounder when the loss of Stokes has already been one too many. I expect Goose to slaughter me for the suggestion but I would give serious thought to calling up Dawson if Moeen is likely to stay crocked - he is probably the nearest like for like replacement and would on paper help balance the side although there'll inevitably be concerns as to his quality on grass.

I agree with the comments here about Crane. I like him a lot but believe he should be getting experience now with the Lions rather than carrying drinks for the Test side. I don't see him as a replacement for Moeen in this series due to his (Crane's) far lesser ability with the bat.

I see there are increasing calls for Foakes to come in as keeper with Bairstow moving up the order to replace a batsman, probably Vince. Foakes is a fine keeper and a handy batsman so it may work as a short term measure but I don't see it as a long term answer. If we are going to drop a batsman, we really need to replace him with a batsman. Bringing in an extra keeper and juggling the order seems to me as something of a cop out.

I agree with most of that Guildford. I'm a big fan of Vince as you know, but he's got to stop getting out in the same manor. The last dismissal was what got him dropped from the test squad in the first place. He played brilliantly in the first game, so he's got the talent, its just about producing that on a regular basis.

I wouldn't be adverse to Crane playing in the next game. He's young but he's very confident in his own ability and I don't think he'd be overawed by the occasion.

I see T.Curran has got 77* with the bat this morning in the warm up game. Play him as a batsman!

jimbohammers wrote:

guildfordbat wrote:I was prevented from watching live England's capitulation on the last day by a truly terrible 24 hour bug (I won't go into further details and, in any case, they would need to be posted after the watershed). However, I have since seen the highlights.

I feel posters here as usual have generally hit the right tone in being disappointed but none too surprised whilst resisting the call for wholescale changes and sackings. We have to play the hand we hold. Some surprisingly good measured comments from Goose in particular on that theme.

Just the odd observation on the last day and what has followed.

Regulars will know I'm never keen on nightwatchmen. I won't go again here into the pluses and many minuses as I see it of the role but one consequence in this Test was that Bairstow was relegated down the order to number 8 and very soon had no one to bat around him. As I posted and feared at the time when Woakes went in, that was a waste.

In the post match interviews, Smith seemed honest and willing to reconsider his tactics for the future in acknowledging he may have got ''not enforcing the follow on'' wrong. Perhaps easier to be open when you have won but, by contrast, Root came across as stubborn and adopting an unhealthy siege mentality in sticking to his ''bowl first'' decision.

Moeen has clearly struggled. I do not understand at all the rationale of him being the sole England player from this Test to be chosen (as captain) for the two day practice game coming up at the weekend. Sure, his fitness needs to be checked but don't do that by seeing how he gets on in another game. Let the medics / physios check the guy over and, assuming he's ok, then let him net a bit and rest. If Moeen can't continue, we have a serious problem in that we are losing another allrounder when the loss of Stokes has already been one too many. I expect Goose to slaughter me for the suggestion but I would give serious thought to calling up Dawson if Moeen is likely to stay crocked - he is probably the nearest like for like replacement and would on paper help balance the side although there'll inevitably be concerns as to his quality on grass.

I agree with the comments here about Crane. I like him a lot but believe he should be getting experience now with the Lions rather than carrying drinks for the Test side. I don't see him as a replacement for Moeen in this series due to his (Crane's) far lesser ability with the bat.

I see there are increasing calls for Foakes to come in as keeper with Bairstow moving up the order to replace a batsman, probably Vince. Foakes is a fine keeper and a handy batsman so it may work as a short term measure but I don't see it as a long term answer. If we are going to drop a batsman, we really need to replace him with a batsman. Bringing in an extra keeper and juggling the order seems to me as something of a cop out.

I see T.Curran has got 77* with the bat this morning in the warm up game. Play him as a batsman!

Also got the only wicket to fall and has a bit of pace about him.

Curran not doing his chances any harm...

May be too early but I think it is not unlikely that he'll feature in a Test on this tour : Sydney , perhaps if it all continues to go badly. Or even if it goes better but a couple of bowlers get injured/ worn out.

In truth a two day game doesn't give anyone a serious chance of pushing for a place ; but if Ballance was looking to do so - he didn't .

What on earth possessed Ben Duckett (in the present climate) to get himself suspended pouring a drink over another player's head in a Perth bar ?
Don't know who his victim was ; but "a (current) senior player"

So not Kevin Pietersen - I could have understood that

Would Andrew Flintoff have been thrown out of the England Cricket Team, given his off-field behaviour, in todays climate? Highly disciplined on field, less disciplined off field - or at least that is what I have heard.

CaledonianCraig wrote:A more plausible bowling change would be to drop Ali for another pace bowler such as Jake Ball and have Joe Root bowl more overs to take the strain from the pace attack. First over Mark Wood has just bowled has bern smacked for 11 runs.

Yes we can barely score over 200 so let’s make that tail even longer!

alfie wrote:Curran not doing his chances any harm...

May be too early but I think it is not unlikely that he'll feature in a Test on this tour : Sydney , perhaps if it all continues to go badly.  Or even if it goes better but a couple of bowlers get injured/ worn out.

In truth a two day game doesn't give anyone a serious chance of pushing for a place ; but if Ballance was looking to do so - he didn't .

Would imagine Curran will only play if the series is over - maybe to rest Anderson. He hasn’t got searing pace but he’s a canny good bowler who won’t shy away from the big moment.

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:A more plausible bowling change would be to drop Ali for another pace bowler such as Jake Ball and have Joe Root bowl more overs to take the strain from the pace attack. First over Mark Wood has just bowled has bern smacked for 11 runs.

Yes we can barely score over 200 so let’s make that tail even longer!

Yes but remember that Ali is a walking wicket for Nathan Lyon. The batting options being touted is Gary Ballance - another flop today. Remember that Overton did a handy stint with the bat as well (better than many of the established batsmen).

If four pace bowlers can't do the job , Craig , five won't do anything except ensure they aren't so tired at the end of it. And yes , there might be some merit in that but it won't win them a Test Match.
In truth the bowlers have shown they can get Australia out : for a moderate score in Brisbane and a very low one second innings Adelaide : unfortunately they had a serious off day in the first innings ! But still it is basically the batting that needs strengthening. If they can make 400 plus in a first innings I reckon the bowlers will do the rest.

alfie wrote:If four pace bowlers can't do the job , Craig , five won't do anything except ensure they aren't so tired at the end of it.  And yes , there might be some merit in that but it won't win them a Test Match.
In truth the bowlers have shown they can get Australia out : for a moderate score in Brisbane and a very low one second innings Adelaide : unfortunately they had a serious off day in the first innings !   But still it is basically the batting that needs strengthening. If they can make 400 plus in a first innings I reckon the bowlers will do the rest.

My point is though that the glaringly obvious change they will make is bringing in Ballance who has failed before and failed again todsy. That is not a selection that will ensure more runs.

As Alfie suggests, you shouldn't make too much out of a 2 day practice game. However, Jennings at least reminding people that he's still out there. A top score of 80 and, per the cricinfo report, thoughtfully compiled.

It seems a long time ago now but at the start of our last summer, my England top four read: Cook, Stoneman, Jennings and Root in that order. For some reason , the selectors ignored that and only brought Stoneman in when they moved Jennings out. It would obviously be good if Jennings could again force himself into contention through his own efforts and not just the failings of others.

Another plus point for Jennings is that at a pinch, he could also send down a few overs of medium pace to give the 4 seamers a break. Again as Alfie suggests, there's no point bringing in a fifth seamer when four can't do the job and especially a fifth like Ball who can't bat. The most left field choice of a batsman to come in and bowl a bit of the medium stuff would be Collingwood. It ain't gonna happen but it's not the craziest ever thought - the guy still does it for Durham!

I take on board Jimbo's support for Crane's bowling and character. Putting aside any concerns as to his inexperience, it's him being a batting lightweight that still bothers me. His inclusion would further weaken the batting which is already struggling badly. That's why I was banging the drum for Dawson the other day if Moeen has to drop out. We do need to try and keep some balance in the side with Stokes missing and missed. Admittedly, a replacement has to be somewhere near the mark - not sure that Dawson is but any choice is looking a gamble and he could be the best.

guildfordbat wrote:As Alfie suggests, you shouldn't make too much out of a 2 day practice game. However, Jennings at least reminding people that he's still out there. A top score of 80 and, per the cricinfo report, thoughtfully compiled.

It seems a long time ago now but at the start of our last summer, my England top four read: Cook, Stoneman, Jennings and Root in that order. For some reason , the selectors ignored that and only brought Stoneman in when they moved Jennings out. It would obviously be good if Jennings could again force himself into contention through his own efforts and not just the failings of others.

Another plus point for Jennings is that at a pinch, he could also send down a few overs of medium pace to give the 4 seamers a break. Again as Alfie suggests, there's no point bringing in a fifth seamer when four can't do the job and especially a fifth like Ball who can't bat. The most left field choice of a batsman to come in and bowl a bit of the medium stuff would be Collingwood. It ain't gonna happen but it's not the craziest ever thought - the guy still does it for Durham!

I take on board Jimbo's support for Crane's bowling and character. Putting aside any concerns as to his inexperience, it's him being a batting lightweight that still bothers me. His inclusion would further weaken the batting which is already struggling badly. That's why I was banging the drum for Dawson the other day if Moeen has to drop out. We do need to try and keep some balance in the side with Stokes missing and missed. Admittedly, a replacement has to be somewhere near the mark - not sure that Dawson is but any choice is looking a gamble and he could be the best.

Well surely any player coming into the side has to have some sort of form. Ballance hasn't and if there was to be a change such as Vince dropping out then I'd sooner see Keaton Jennings in rather than Ballance.

Craig - I haven't suggested Ballance.

CaledonianCraig wrote:Hmm Ballance flops with the bat and you are totally screwed. At least Ali may retrieve things with an odd wicket or two or at least he offers rest for the pace attack whilst he bowls. Ballance scored just one run in the match going on just now and Foakes scored two runs. Wood another touted for a game in the third test picked up a duck.

Ali's off-spin duties could be transferred to Root and we wouldn't notice much difference.

Bringing Ball in for Ali would be a poor move, as he would make the tail longer and offer precious little with the ball.

If there is to be a replacement for Ali, it should be a specialist batsman because making runs is a real struggle for England at the moment. Ballance would be my preferred choice as he will bring much-needed patience and application with the bat. He has only had two innings on tour so far: an unbeaten 51 (before retiring) and 1 last night, so I feel it's a bit harsh to say he's in poor form.

guildfordbat wrote:Craig - I haven't suggested Ballance.

No I never said you had. It is pretty much the assumption in the media etc. And even on the BBC website today it has this:-

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/42292655

Duty281 wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:Hmm Ballance flops with the bat and you are totally screwed. At least Ali may retrieve things with an odd wicket or two or at least he offers rest for the pace attack whilst he bowls. Ballance scored just one run in the match going on just now and Foakes scored two runs. Wood another touted for a game in the third test picked up a duck.

Ali's off-spin duties could be transferred to Root and we wouldn't notice much difference.

Bringing Ball in for Ali would be a poor move, as he would make the tail longer and offer precious little with the ball.

If there is to be a replacement for Ali, it should be a specialist batsman because making runs is a real struggle for England at the moment. Ballance would be my preferred choice as he will bring much-needed patience and application with the bat. He has only had two innings on tour so far: an unbeaten 51 (before retiring) and 1 last night, so I feel it's a bit harsh to say he's in poor form.

Christ, Root as captain, the best batsman in the side and the only spin option? Put a bit more on his plate! Even at Perth, where spin shouldn't play too much of a part, that is a stretch. Same team again IMO, maybe Wood comes into contention although would be very harsh on Overton.

Duty281 wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:Hmm Ballance flops with the bat and you are totally screwed. At least Ali may retrieve things with an odd wicket or two or at least he offers rest for the pace attack whilst he bowls. Ballance scored just one run in the match going on just now and Foakes scored two runs. Wood another touted for a game in the third test picked up a duck.

Ali's off-spin duties could be transferred to Root and we wouldn't notice much difference.

Bringing Ball in for Ali would be a poor move, as he would make the tail longer and offer precious little with the ball.

If there is to be a replacement for Ali, it should be a specialist batsman because making runs is a real struggle for England at the moment. Ballance would be my preferred choice as he will bring much-needed patience and application with the bat. He has only had two innings on tour so far: an unbeaten 51 (before retiring) and 1 last night, so I feel it's a bit harsh to say he's in poor form.

The specialist batsmen are no guarantee of getting a glut of runs though. Look in the last test - Overton was brought in for his bowling and contributed more with the bat than a number of the specialist batsmen.

I did say earlier that if Ali is rested/dropped then Root could fill in as the spinner bowling more overs. On the subject of rejigging the batting line-up with Vince being axed then I'd say Jennings would be worth more of a punt than Ballance. If Ali is rested/dropped then I'd feel his spot should go to an all-rounder.

JDizzle wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:Hmm Ballance flops with the bat and you are totally screwed. At least Ali may retrieve things with an odd wicket or two or at least he offers rest for the pace attack whilst he bowls. Ballance scored just one run in the match going on just now and Foakes scored two runs. Wood another touted for a game in the third test picked up a duck.

Ali's off-spin duties could be transferred to Root and we wouldn't notice much difference.

Bringing Ball in for Ali would be a poor move, as he would make the tail longer and offer precious little with the ball.

If there is to be a replacement for Ali, it should be a specialist batsman because making runs is a real struggle for England at the moment. Ballance would be my preferred choice as he will bring much-needed patience and application with the bat. He has only had two innings on tour so far: an unbeaten 51 (before retiring) and 1 last night, so I feel it's a bit harsh to say he's in poor form.

Christ, Root as captain, the best batsman in the side and the only spin option? Put a bit more on his plate! Even at Perth, where spin shouldn't play too much of a part, that is a stretch. Same team again IMO, maybe Wood comes into contention although would be very harsh on Overton.

Well he would be the option to go for rather than throwing Mason Crane in at the deep end if they decide to rest/drop Ali which I don't think will happen anyway. As for Mark Wood I'd see that as something of a desperation selection given that he has hardly played any cricket of late and it showed in the on-going match in Perth.

CaledonianCraig wrote:

guildfordbat wrote:Craig - I haven't suggested Ballance.

No I never said you had. It is pretty much the assumption in the media etc. And even on the BBC website today it has this:-

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/42292655

It was tagging your comments about Ballance onto my post which I didn't understand and still don't.

guildfordbat wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

guildfordbat wrote:Craig - I haven't suggested Ballance.

No I never said you had. It is pretty much the assumption in the media etc. And even on the BBC website today it has this:-

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/42292655

It was tagging your comments about Ballance onto my post which I didn't understand and still don't.

Yes sorry...let me explain.

You were speaking of options so I added in my thoughts. The thought of Ballance being played is a worry as it is who the media seem to be touting hence my post. I did say I agreed and thought Jennings was a better option if a change in batting has to be made.

End of the day it is all hypothetical as I think it is quite possible that there will be no team changes anyway.

Regardless of thoughts about Ballance's suitability for an England place, the itinerary for touring sides these days is dreadfully unfair on squad players like him. He has no real opportunity to prove his worth and push for a place on his own merits. Consequently, if he does get a call up through someone else suffering injury or poor form, there will be a large question mark over his selection.

JDizzle wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:Hmm Ballance flops with the bat and you are totally screwed. At least Ali may retrieve things with an odd wicket or two or at least he offers rest for the pace attack whilst he bowls. Ballance scored just one run in the match going on just now and Foakes scored two runs. Wood another touted for a game in the third test picked up a duck.

Ali's off-spin duties could be transferred to Root and we wouldn't notice much difference.

Bringing Ball in for Ali would be a poor move, as he would make the tail longer and offer precious little with the ball.

If there is to be a replacement for Ali, it should be a specialist batsman because making runs is a real struggle for England at the moment. Ballance would be my preferred choice as he will bring much-needed patience and application with the bat. He has only had two innings on tour so far: an unbeaten 51 (before retiring) and 1 last night, so I feel it's a bit harsh to say he's in poor form.

Even at Perth, where spin shouldn't play too much of a part, that is a stretch.

I wouldn't downplay spin too much in Perth. On the last Ashes tour eight wickets fell to spinners in Perth.

No name Bertie wrote:Would Andrew Flintoff have been thrown out of the England Cricket Team, given his off-field behaviour, in todays climate?  Highly disciplined on field, less disciplined off field - or at least that is what I have heard.

Bertie - behaviour tends to be reviewed more when results are poor. That probably applies to life and not just Test cricket.

Overnight a couple of wickets apiece for Mark Wood and Tom Curran before Cricket Australia declare. In their second innings Jennings out for a duck whilst Ballance and Ali hunt down 50s as I type.

No bowling for Ali today so it is puzzling as to why he is playing. It cannot be to sort out batting flaws as they are caused by Nathan Lyon who is not bowling here. Besodes Ali will always bat the way he does.

Ali out for 47 and Ballance 45 not out as England declare in a bid to force an unlikely win in this two day match.

The main play for a place in the side for the third test has been made by Tom Curran I would say. An unbeaten 77 with the bat, teo wickets in the first and three wickets in the second innings.

Hey look Mark Wood isn’t Joel Garner...wonder if the media will still be calling for his inclusion after this...?

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Hey look Mark Wood isn’t Joel Garner...wonder if the media will still be calling for his inclusion after this...?

He is just not ready. He has been out injured for a long time then flown out to Australia in no sort of condition. To throw him into the third test would smack of desperation.

Match drawn. Five wickets taken by the spinners with four for Leach and one for Crane. Leach more expensive but more potent.

I, for one, am shocked to see Jack Leach struggling on pitches that aren’t doctored for him...