Ireland are the form favourites for the 6Nations

First topic message reminder :

With England's form bubble well and truly burst by the recent Euro match ups and their injury list resulting in a fracture to the squads integrity, it now has to be obvious that the better top down Irish organisation places them in pole position.
You're only as good as your last game and anyone who honestly analysed our win over Ozy knows much luck was expended that day, but realistically the game was considerably closer than score board suggested.
In the bigger picture the envelope of our current development has been reached and changes will result during and after this tournament. Hartley will fall as will others and our over reliance on forward domination above the ability to attack with pace and skill from deep and wide out. Brown will go and the backs will be challenged to deliver and lead our structure.
The dominance of Saracens has been the bell weather to this English revival and now, as is obvious to all, they like England are in transition to be able to progress and challenge further.
So the Irish will have this tournament, but if EJ knows his onions he'll allow bruised bodies to mend and will take an A/B squad away this summer and then start a fresh and beat the AB's in the autumn.

So if barnes gives more pens than other refs it would make sense for that to be seen in Ireland games as well.

We lost to Italy??? The shame!!!!!!!!

No 7&1/2 wrote:So if barnes gives more pens than other refs it would make sense for that to be seen in Ireland games as well.

Look at the ratios 7.5.

Overall 109 during Barnes career: Ireland 24 yellow 1 red vs opponents 57 and 1 red
Barnes games:   Ireland 9 yellow and 1 red vs opponents 10 yellow

Can you see the trend?

Yes, increased cards in general is the trend.

How many were wrong?

Scottrf wrote:Yes, increased cards in general is the trend.

How many were wrong?

ALL OF THEM, dammit!

Scottrf wrote:Yes, increased cards in general is the trend.

How many were wrong?

That's one trend alright and I think it certainly indicates that he is one of the more volatile referees. Anything else?

From memory the Sexton one last year and the Ferris yellow in 2012 was spectacularly wrong.

Sexton wasn't so I'll question your judgement and not review the Ferris one. Were any of the opposition cards wrong?

You are again cherry picking stats. How.many advantages how many games against a superior australia side? Etc etc. You're a stats man Ypu know you're not proving anything. Also thats a bit.confusing what's you've posted there as you seem to be mixing stats together?

Sexton was as blatant a yellow as you'll see.

Scottrf wrote:Sexton wasn't so I'll question your judgement and not review the Ferris one. Were any of the opposition cards wrong?

Yes it was. You cant slow ball by lying under it. I think your judgement is off.

Why don't you conduct an assessment on all the cards and report back with the findings?

Collapse2005 wrote:

Scottrf wrote:Sexton wasn't so I'll question your judgement and not review the Ferris one. Were any of the opposition cards wrong?

Yes it was. You cant slow ball by lying under it. I think your judgement is off.

Why don't you conduct an assessment on all the cards and report back with the findings?

Because I'm not claiming that a professional referee is biased.

Scottrf wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

Scottrf wrote:Sexton wasn't so I'll question your judgement and not review the Ferris one. Were any of the opposition cards wrong?

Yes it was. You cant slow ball by lying under it. I think your judgement is off.

Why don't you conduct an assessment on all the cards and report back with the findings?

Because I'm not claiming that a professional referee is biased.

Not sure I specifically said he was biased (maybe I did?) but I do think there enough red flags and anomalies to merit a review.

You do seem quite adamant that he handled each of the referenced Ireland games well. I watched them all and I definitely don't. There were controversial incidents in quite a few of them.

In one game he actually refused to let Ferris seek medical attention even though he had a gash in his hand and his bone was visible. He called play on after Ferris highlighted it to him.

There really isn't.

No 7&1/2 wrote:There really isn't.

How many of the games have you watched? Be honest.

I've watched the vast majority of them. Always watch then home. Nations and Ireland.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I've watched the vast majority of them. Always watch then home. Nations and Ireland.

Ill take your word for it.

Prescience.

Its amazing to see that Ireland are on the brink of a GS this year. Ireland have certainly had their fortunate moments along the way but you take those.

Irelands defence is still something for concern though.

When you look very closely, Ireland only just won in France thanks to an excellent set of phase play and DG from Sexton.

Ireland beat Wales thanks to a lack of composure from Wales (and an incredibly risky but excellent read from Stockdale) at the end when throwing caution to the wind, had Wales thrown shorter passes they may have gone over.

Against Scotland, Irelands defence was again opened up on numerous occasions but for the lack of composure from Scotland, it may have been a different outcome.

Don't get me wrong, I am very happy that Ireland are going for the GS but it has been fine margins in some of the wins. I will take that everyday and during this 6N Ireland have looked the best team in the NH overall so are more than deserved champions.

Oh and I hope yesterdays win for Ireland puts to bed a lot of this 'Barnes is biased against Ireland' nonsense to bed once and for all.

Barnes was pointedly much more clear in his pronouncements and it was certain by his demeanour that he was conscious that Ireland have concerns about just what it takes for them to finally understand his interpretations.

So if the concerns amongst some Irish people over a very real record they have when Barnes has coached was real - I repeat the concerns - and they were - then it's also clear that Barnes was made aware of it somewhere down the line.  He was going out of his way to be clear in his directions and explaining to both sides why he was making the calls he was making.

Good performance from him - in the clarity he was giving players so that they knew where they stood with him throughout the game.  That's all that Irish players and any players from any other sides seek.  Clarity and consistency.

SecretFly wrote:Barnes was pointedly much more clear in his pronouncements and it was certain by his demeanour that he was conscious that Ireland have concerns about just what it takes for them to finally understand his interpretations.

So if the concerns amongst some Irish people over a very real record they have when Barnes has coached was real - I repeat the concerns - and they were - then it's also clear that Barnes was made aware of it somewhere down the line.  He was going out of his way to be clear in his directions and explaining to both sides why he was making the calls he was making.

Good performance from him - in the clarity he was giving players so that they knew where they stood with him throughout the game.  That's all that Irish players and any players from any other sides seek.  Clarity and consistency.

Fly, certain posters were not posting concerns, they were literally stating Barnes biased against Ireland. These were not concerns, these were accusations.

eirebilly wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Barnes was pointedly much more clear in his pronouncements and it was certain by his demeanour that he was conscious that Ireland have concerns about just what it takes for them to finally understand his interpretations.

So if the concerns amongst some Irish people over a very real record they have when Barnes has coached was real - I repeat the concerns - and they were - then it's also clear that Barnes was made aware of it somewhere down the line.  He was going out of his way to be clear in his directions and explaining to both sides why he was making the calls he was making.

Good performance from him - in the clarity he was giving players so that they knew where they stood with him throughout the game.  That's all that Irish players and any players from any other sides seek.  Clarity and consistency.

Fly, certain posters were not posting concerns, they were literally stating Barnes biased against Ireland. These were not concerns, these were accusations.

Their concerns is/was that the record that's there is evidence of bias (conscious or unconscious.)  Now whilst their words at times might be the wrong kind, they have the right to utter those concerns based on the record.  If the record didn't compute with the concerns then they wouldn't have a leg to stand on.  But the evidence was there that Ireland strangely could never learn to follow Barnes's interpretations even though they are acknowledged as a very smart side that always do their homework on all refs.

Barnes was being Very Clear yesterday.  Very clear - pointedly so.  The concerns even of the Irish officials/coaches must have been related to him somehow.  Maybe he has finally realised that Irish players need to know why everything they've attempted certainly at breakdown time seemed to be wrong in his eyes.

Good clear performance from him yesterday.

He always has clear communication. One of his strengths.

Congrats to Ireland for tying up the Championship a week early and a more than likely GS next week. After England, Ireland are my next favourite team so at least that lessens the pain a bit

PS if you could spare a few players to help London Irish out a bit that would be grand

Heaf wrote:PS if you could spare a few players to help London Irish out a bit that would be grand

Well with nice loveable Kidney on board and Kiss too...I think they might be trying to actively coax surplus Provincial players over. It tends to happen that way. SA coach, their team begin to see more SA players come in. NZ coach, more NZ players show up.

There is quite a surplus of young players looking for game time here with only four Provinces to handle them so you never know - it might become a more active pathway again Heaf.

Fly, I have never know Barnes to be anything else than clear and concise in his communication. Overly pedantic, yes but also very clear.

In the past, Ireland have argued with him and not adjusted which has led to a high penalty count against them. Barnes was not different yesterday than he has always been, Ireland simply adjusted to him and it paid off. Credit to Schmidt for finally drumming this into the players.

This in no way clears a few posters on here for blatantly accusing him of having bias against Ireland and accusing him of being a cheat. Yesterdays performance will hopefully silence those accusations.

SecretFly wrote:

Heaf wrote:PS if you could spare a few players to help London Irish out a bit that would be grand

Well with nice loveable Kidney on board and Kiss too...I think they might be trying to actively coax surplus Provincial players over.  It tends to happen that way.  SA coach, their team begin to see more SA players come in.  NZ coach, more NZ players show up.

There is quite a surplus of young players looking for game time here with only four Provinces to handle them so you never know - it might become a more active pathway again Heaf.

Fingers crossed - although if we get any that look good they'll probably end up at Bath along with the most promising output from the LI academy ...

He's never been as clear with Irish players as yesterday, billy.  He either knows the 'concerns' at this point from social media or behind the scenes Irish coaches/officials have said they need more clarity.

We'll disagree with this so.  We seem to do it a lot - not a bad thing either.  But Ireland adjust pretty well to all other refs yet they've always struggled with Barnes.  Hopefully that passage of misunderstanding is over now.  A new chapter for Ireland and Barnes.

eirebilly wrote:Ireland beat Wales thanks to a lack of composure from Wales (and an incredibly risky but excellent read from Stockdale) at the end when throwing caution to the wind, had Wales thrown shorter passes they may have gone over.

While this is true, the other side of the coin is Sexton missed 3 (I think) kicks that he would normally put over in his sleep. Ireland should have been out of sight.

Luck evens itself out.

I think Ireland are good value for their position in the table.

I remember Shane Horgan's late late try to beat England many years ago, which was a thing of beauty. But if anything the DG against France was more impressive.

rapidsnowman wrote:

eirebilly wrote:Ireland beat Wales thanks to a lack of composure from Wales (and an incredibly risky but excellent read from Stockdale) at the end when throwing caution to the wind, had Wales thrown shorter passes they may have gone over.

While this is true, the other side of the coin is Sexton missed 3 (I think) kicks that he would normally put over in his sleep. Ireland should have been out of sight.

Luck evens itself out.

Exactly.  I hearing this since the Competition began.  It's what every other side could have/would have/should have done to Ireland, and not just to be more competitive but actually to win.

So be it.  Wales might have won - hold my hand up and did after the game.  Scotland might have made life more difficult for us - the three now famous moments that didn't get pulled off.

But if we're going to do a 'what-ifs' approach and virtually say that every team Ireland met might have beaten them but for (fill in this blank); well then let's do it with Ireland too?  Do they fluff opportunities in games?  Damn sure they do.  One, two, three per game on average?  I'd say about two on average per game.
So four tries might have been five tries or six tries.  Then a three try tally from Scotland might still not have been enough.  Johnny missing those points against Wales (6 or 9 points?)  A final Welsh score wouldn't have been enough IF he'd have belted them in.  But then had he belted them in, who knows what the game would have been like anyway?  'What if' chaos theory - something small somewhere leads to unforeseen effects a long way away.

So of course other sides are going to look for the bright points in their own game - but this Ireland this season has impressed me with this Consistent durability that other teams just can't rattle - yet! And their stats per game in many departments are simply very impressive as a team operating like a machine.

I think our toughest game so far was that one game that we nearly Did lose in real quantifiable terms - the French one.  That was a nail biter because we just didn't seem up to speed enough to have any ideas how to break through or break down France.  Against Wales and Scotland, we were direct in our goal for tries.  Nobody can say we didn't find a way to score when we needed to (to win or to gain the bonus points).  

That was a new kind of ruthlessness that perhaps the bonus points system is uncovering with this Ireland team.  Of all the Six Nations big hitter sides, and I'll now include Scotland in that, I think Ireland have been the laziest in the 'It'll do' department pre-bonus points.  We'd win by enough to win, if we had the winning of the game at all - and then close up shop.  The bonus points means we have to hunt for tries and given our early reputation in this very 6N year as the team that struggles to score tries, we've been pretty ruthless at finding our way to get the numbers we want and need.

SecretFly wrote:
Good clear performance from him yesterday.

Except for Scotland first try where there was a clear knock on from Scotland and he should have give Ireland a scrum rather than play on as there was no advantage. He's a crook.

SecretFly wrote:He's never been as clear with Irish players as yesterday, billy.  He either knows the 'concerns' at this point from social media or behind the scenes Irish coaches/officials have said they need more clarity.

We'll disagree with this so.  We seem to do it a lot - not a bad thing either.  But Ireland adjust pretty well to all other refs yet they've always struggled with Barnes.  Hopefully that passage of misunderstanding is over now.  A new chapter for Ireland and Barnes.

You are right he was unusually vocal and clear. I don't rate him at all as a ref as I do feel there is a bias there and it is evident in certain fixtures more than others particularly in tight games. I also find him to be too emotional to be a first class ref.

I think the last two games he has reffed for Ireland, Scotland this year and Wales last year he has improved so much from the start of his career but I still disagree with the Sexton yellow last year.

I heard some people say that Murray's try should have been called a knock on but I don't think it was clear and obvious it was a KO at all.

rapidsnowman wrote:

eirebilly wrote:Ireland beat Wales thanks to a lack of composure from Wales (and an incredibly risky but excellent read from Stockdale) at the end when throwing caution to the wind, had Wales thrown shorter passes they may have gone over.

While this is true, the other side of the coin is Sexton missed 3 (I think) kicks that he would normally put over in his sleep. Ireland should have been out of sight.

Luck evens itself out.

You are correct in that and it is something I did overlook in my assessment.

Collapse2005 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:He's never been as clear with Irish players as yesterday, billy.  He either knows the 'concerns' at this point from social media or behind the scenes Irish coaches/officials have said they need more clarity.

We'll disagree with this so.  We seem to do it a lot - not a bad thing either.  But Ireland adjust pretty well to all other refs yet they've always struggled with Barnes.  Hopefully that passage of misunderstanding is over now.  A new chapter for Ireland and Barnes.

You are right he was unusually vocal and clear. I don't rate him at all as a ref as I do feel there is a bias there and it is evident in certain fixtures more than others particularly in tight games. I also find him to be too emotional to be a first class ref.

I think the last two games he has reffed for Ireland, Scotland this year and Wales last year he has improved so much from the start of his career but I still disagree with the Sexton yellow last year.

I heard some people say that Murray's try should have been called a knock on but I don't think it was clear and obvious it was a KO at all.

I also thought that Barnes was much clearer in his instructions than previously - although he says "good man" way too much. He was also fairly consistent for both teams over both halves, something that he hasn't been in the past. Perhaps he has finally acknowledged that his record involving Ireland stands out like a sore thumb when compared to other officials?

The Great Aukster wrote:

I also thought that Barnes was much clearer in his instructions than previously - although he says "good man" way too much. He was also fairly consistent for both teams over both halves, something that he hasn't been in the past. Perhaps he has finally acknowledged that his record involving Ireland stands out like a sore thumb when compared to other officials?

Haha you are absolutely right. About all other points too.

Well the final hurdle for many fans from Cheltenham to Twickenham takes place today and for the national side the opportunity to rightfully take the conclusive spoils awaits.
I hope Ireland have their day, they undoubtedly deserve to having been the tournament's most integral component and it would, I feel, reduce the championship and the estimation of the European game as a whole if not one team can deliver complete coherence.
However as we all know there are very few guarantees in life and so it is the same in sport.
Here's hoping for a cracking game of the very highest order. Enjoy one and all and may the best team win.

Right then. Today is the day. The hour is nearly upon us, it's always darkest before the dawn etc etc etc
It's going to be close, tight, fine margins. No quarter given.

I think we (Ireland) can win. It ain't gonna be easy, and England are very capable of giving us a sound spanking, and they may just be in the mood to do it too. I hope not.

Well good luck everyone. Drink sensible, and enjoy a fine game

I am hoping for some good games today and also hoping Ireland win - cos that would help Scotland ( if england win scotland end up 4th )

Although England may have better individuals ( may have) I think Ireland are the best team in that they all operate to the same plan and all execute it well - a cohesive team

TJ wrote:I am hoping for some good games today and also hoping Ireland win - cos that would help Scotland ( if england win scotland end up 4th )

Although England may have better individuals ( may have) I think Ireland are the best team in that they all operate to the same plan and all execute it well - a cohesive team

I'd definitely take Farrell for the bench, not sure outside that.

A quick word to wish everyone (but specially the Irish posters) a great St Patrick day

whocares wrote:A quick word to wish everyone (but specially the Irish posters) a great St Patrick day

Good man yerself

I really hope I am as accurate with later part of my prediction.......an A/B level touring squad and we defeat the AB's come the autumn........though that last one is looking more than optimistic right now.

whocares wrote:A quick word to wish everyone (but specially the Irish posters) a great St Patrick day

Thanks whocares. It was a wonderful day. The stars just seemed to be aligned this year - even the English gave Stockdale the extra metre he needed.

Its very interesting rereading my analysis from December last, and especially when considering 7's normal reactionary nonsense.

I'm sure you don't still believe England will beat the ABs in Nov.

Just remember last June England took 3 out of 3 from the Wallabies and haven't been the same since then.  Australia are like the Rugby succubus, a form of undead.  You may have won the battle but at the same time they suck the life out of your players and team like a leech or a vampire.  Can there be any other explanation for England playing so poorly since then? And can Ireland's fate be different?

Doc - it was Summer 2016 we went to Australia.

Tickets secured for Ireland v NZ. Woohoo