Club Abuse - Should Players Suffer a penalty?

I've done it myself a couple of times after a really bad shot. I've thrown my club down or I've taken a swing at the turf etc. But we've all seen some of Tigers antics recently, where he's tried to demolish a bunker, sworn on camera or just thrown his club down. Last week in round 3 of the desert swing we saw one of our top Scandinavians throw his wedge into the drink, followed by his ball once he completed the hole.

Should players be sanctioned for this, as it shows the profession in a bad light, or should we ignore it as part of the entertainment?

Voted no as it would be very difficult to apply. Same as the old argument about relief from a divot. What would actually constitute abuse? Taking another swing and taking some turf with it? At what level would a muttered swear word become clearly audible?

I personally think that by the time you see the pros resorting to this, they are probably doing sufficient damage to themselves, mentally anyway, if not depriving themselves of clubs by throwing a club in the water, or say, breaking their putter

yes.

Disqualification. Immediate and without any sort of ability to appeal against it.


It's a Flip disgrace and an example that too many kids follow. And incidentally... those kids that are guilty of clubthrowing need to get a bloody hard slap around the back of the head. Followed by a ban imposed by their parents.

Personally speaking i have answered no, you cannot tell someone how to behave when they are frustrated, however, there is some way it can be address in that, if someone swears let it be it's human nature, it they let go of the club on follow through as many do meaning the club drops to the floor again let it be this is not harmful to anyone or anything. If though they take to the time to actually throw the club like said ET player into the drink then yes penalise them as this is above and behond frustration and like wise if they inturn intentionally dmage the coure a la sergio bunkergate at Whistling Straights then penalise this.

But you cannot penalise someone for letting go of a club of giving themself a tirade of abuse for messing up

Maverick wrote:Personally speaking i have answered no, you cannot tell someone how to behave when they are frustrated, however, there is some way it can be address in that, if someone swears let it be it's human nature, it they let go of the club on follow through as many do meaning the club drops to the floor again let it be this is not harmful to anyone or anything. If though they take to the time to actually throw the club like said ET player into the drink then yes penalise them as this is above and behond frustration and like wise if they inturn intentionally dmage the coure a la sergio bunkergate at Whistling Straights then penalise this.

But you cannot penalise someone for letting go of a club of giving themself a tirade of abuse for messing up

On the other hand a lot of the kids these days are so adept at swearing, shouting, throwing clubs and being generally abusive on the course that it affects others playing around them. So something needs to be done.

I should point out that the Essex Golf Union have now put in place some rules that if juniors (or some senior players) behave in such a manner they will either be banned from competition individually or the club will have restrictions placed upon it for the team events. And that I think is a good thing.

I'm sick of all the nonsense that they think is acceptable. Selfish ignorant brats.

LJ :606laugh: I'm sick of you sitting on the fence

The problem here though is that I agree with both of the points raised. Yes it could be difficult to judge and yes it does show a bad example. The classic case here is that Tiger has every swing, smile, grimace filmed, and when he blows up its seen by millions around the world. he's the most recognised person in world sport and has been the saviour of the USPGA tour and made golf popular tv viewing. The example he sets will be copied by millions of kids, because Tiger gets away with it and if it works for Tiger .....

Doc.

I had one kid I played with last year start by asking me if I breathed in or out in my backswing. Then throw several clubs. I told him to stop or I'd be reporting him... the response was "Tiger does it. So will I". It carried on and in the end he tried to front me out... By this stage I was in a very aggressive mood so put him in his place...

He's already been thrown out of one club for it... and now he's found a home. I personally hope that he does behave in this manner at an event. He'll get the entire club banned from competition for a bloody long time. If the clubs won't deal with it then the regional authority should.

Incidentally... I'm moving clubs. Not because of this but it has been a factor. I have no desire to be associated with this sort of behaviour and my own playing rights restricted due to the actions of selfish little Poopie who should have been aborted.

SOrry LJ just can't agree with you on this.

If someone throws a club or Attempts to destroy the ground then by all means give them whatever reprimand the club deem appropriate.

But you cannot dictacte to someone what langauge they are allowed to use when frustrated, if they cause offecne in the clubhousse with it yes drag them over the coals but on the course it is the individuals human right to say to themselves whatever they wish.

As for saying it's juniors that do this, well club throwing maybe as they need to grow up and learn but as for language I find far more adults swear then the kids, if anything the kids at my place are far more accepting of their poor shots.

Depends Mave.

Swearing to yourself or loud enough to be heard by your playing partners is one thing.

Shouting as loud as you can about how that shot was useless and you're a complete and total Flip Kumquat so that you can be heard 5 fairways away isn't the same however.

It's not on. There is no respect for any other player... And it should be punished severely.

LondonJonnyO wrote:Depends Mave.

Swearing to yourself or loud enough to be heard by your playing partners is one thing.

Shouting as loud as you can about how that shot was useless and you're a complete and total Flip Kumquat so that you can be heard 5 fairways away isn't the same however.

It's not on. There is no respect for any other player... And it should be punished severely.

Agreed LJ of you swear at yourself in the area of your own group, however yes if it's bellowed out with such ferocity that you sound like the fog horn they lost when building the titanic then reprimand the little oik in a fitting way and give him re-education on the etiquette of the game.

Something they had in place in my Junior days was if you were reported for these sort of behaviours was you were called in front of the secretary and pro and made to explain yourself, and were then made to spend time raking the bunkers on the course as punishment to give you time to think about what you'd done.

If you were a repeat offender, same again but this time the parents were brought into the meeting to and informed that after completing the bunker raking task they were to ensure said oik was taken from the premises and not allowed back on the premises let alone the course for a 4 week period to make them realise their behaviour would not be tolerated, and then if they did it again after their break from the club they were then kicked out of the club and a letter circulated to other local course not to take on this lads membership due to repeated bad behaviour, we found that worked very well

I'm not saying I think it is a good thing - far from it, but to penalise people based on the opinion of others as to what is beyond acceptable is too much in the eye of the beholder for me.

How many fairways would the shouting have to travel to induce a penalty? How far does the club have to travel if thrown or released?

Would seem to be more appropriate at club level for the committee to ban persistant offenders for a number of events to let them know it is not acceptable, or at pro level for fines to be imposed, in my opinion at least

LJ we had a similar issue at our club recently which was actually discussed at the AGM. As you know many clubs are fighting for new members and our membership has grown by another 150 this year, which no other club has replicated in our area. When you bring in so many new members you will always find a few idiots amongst them. There are 4 mates who left another club to join us (We've since heard they were being banned) These 4 idiots have been reprimanded for their behaviour on the course and inside the clubhouse. I guess they may be kicked out soon unless they change. 4 young kids all behaving as if they were Tiger, slowing play down on purpose without allowing anyone through, screaching and abusing each other very loudly for all the course to hear, thrown clubs/balls. If clubs don't get a grip because they want membership numbers at any cost, then it can only get worse

I've found that telling the local hostelry manager that said offender was underage and having them removed from the public bar by force was also most satisfying. :606laugh:



I just see it so much where I am at the moment. How do you deal with it when people refuse to take responsibility for their own kids. Even if the world would have been a better place had the morning after pill existed 18 years ago.

Desperado wrote:I'm not saying I think it is a good thing - far from it, but to penalise people based on the opinion of others as to what is beyond acceptable is too much in the eye of the beholder for me.

How many fairways would the shouting have to travel to induce a penalty? How far does the club have to travel if thrown or released?

Would seem to be more appropriate at club level for the committee to ban persistant offenders for a number of events to let them know it is not acceptable, or at pro level for fines to be imposed, in my opinion at least

In the cases I am thinking of the clubs travelled at least 50 yards.

And the shouting was of sufficient volume that someone teeing off in a group 300 yards away heard it and reported it.

As for what the level is.. if you are berating yourself then there is no need to do so at a louder volume than you would when talking to someone standing next to you.

I voted no. It depends on the situation, but generally speaking it's a "no".

Well guys it's early days but the consensus so far is split 50/50. My own view is that any player who takes a swing in temper and rips up turf, or tries to destroy a fence, bunker etc with his/her club should be sanctioned. I agree that allowing a club to fall to the ground is a grey area, but someone throwing a club is different.

I'm sure there will be a rule about behaviour within the R&A book, but is it explicit or left open for interpretation?

From the etiquette section:

If players follow the guidelines in this section, it will make the game more enjoyable for everyone.

If a player consistently disregards these guidelines during a round or over a period of time to the detriment of others, it is recommended that the Committee considers taking appropriate disciplinary action against the offending player. Such action may, for example, include prohibiting play for a limited time on the course or in a certain number of competitions.This is considered to be justifiable in terms of protecting the interests of the majority of golfers who wish to play in accordance with these guidelines.

In the case of a serious breach of etiquette, the Committee may disqualify a player under Rule 33-7.

Rule 33-7

A penalty of disqualification may in exceptional individual cases be waived, modified or imposed if the Committee considers such action warranted.
Any penalty less than disqualification must not be waived or modified.
If a Committee considers that a player is guilty of a serious breach of etiquette, it may impose a penalty of disqualification under this Rule.

BIG NO from me

i was once a champion club thrower , not proud of it and had someone pull me up on a few occasions as a youngster.


LJ

the young golfer you mentioned seems a bit off the wall. i have never come across anyone who shouted at the top of their voice on a golf course unless its a fore!!!! sounds to me like someone should sit the boy down and have a word. no aggression required just explain why its not acceptable and if he is not willing to accept this then suspend him or whatever. im a big supporter of junior golf and i can assure you that some of the things that go ob in junior medals and club rooms would make your hair curl....but they are just kids.


adult club throwers.......just tell them to grow up !

lieger I know more than one kid like that.

And they are all more or less the same type. You could see them rolling off a production line.

Incidentally. When I say aggression I mean I told him exactly what I thought of him and his behaviour as well as questioning certain aspects of his upbringing. He then threatened to 'beat the Poopie out of me'... so I invited him to please go ahead. He didn't obviously.


Whilst people condone this sort of clubthrowing and swearing as 'just kids' then you are perpetuating the cycle and making excuses where none exist.

You're as bad as the idiots who do it if you think it's acceptable in any form or any room.

Yes, there is absolutely no excuse for it.

Thanks Ladyputt So it seems there isn't a rule, just a big grey area for the offenders to walk through. This seems strange in light of recent DQ's some of which were minor infringements which gave the offender no advantage, but were enforced anyway.

I would suspect that there are some players who don't like playing with certain players because of slow play for example. A player can be sanctioned for slow play, and i fail to see the difference between someone playing slow and upsetting the rythm of his partners, and a player who throws a tantrum. Surely this could affect some players and affect their game

No

Whilst not condoning this sort of behaviour, golf can be extremely frustrating and it's not in everyones makeup to be able to cope with that frustration. However, I do think it's very important to draw the line at spoiling other peoples enjoyment of the game. I've thrown countless strops out on the course after a bad shot etc but I have my little hissy fit and then that's it, back to normal.

I'd like to be able to just shrug my shoulders when things go wrong but that's just not me

An emphatic yes. Caution pros and amatueurs via committee procedure for the first offence and then suspend them for 3 months if they don't mend their petulant ways. Golf is too fine a game to allow the 'brat-pack' mentality to take over :shooter:

I've gone no for the points mentioned in your e-mail Doc, but that's not to say I don't think someone should be pulled up if significantly impacting the enjoyment of others.

To add a bit more around that, you mention Tiger swearing but the bits I've seen are not him bellowing down the fairway or at others, more a frustration at himself that is then picked up by state of the art microphones. Similarly club throwing is normally either releasing after follow through and dropping it, or throwing in direction of his bag, neither of which are going to significantly damage the course.

On the other hand the story LJ mentioned where the individual is clearly overly aggressive and disrupting to another player should be punished.

SportsFanatic wrote:On the other hand the story LJ mentioned where the individual is clearly overly aggressive and disrupting to another player should be punished.

I've also seen this kid, and others who are from the same mould, smash putters into greens tearing up sections of turf, sometimes very close to the hole, when they miss a putt.

Voted no even though I think this is disgraceful. As far as the pros go, fine them (bigtime and I do mean bigtime) for "bringing the game into disrepute". None of this rubbish that goes on in the wendyball ranks where the fines amount to about 10 mins worth of their weekly salary. If TW does it and he's being paid $1m appearance, fine him that. Etc.

Generally, if someone does that sort of thing in the amateur ranks then they get a reputation for being a d**k and hopefully, will get dressed down, publicly, in the bar, after the round/comp. I have no problem with embarrassing someone over this sort of thing in front of other members .

LondonJonnyO wrote:...I've also seen this kid, and others who are from the same mould, smash putters into greens tearing up sections of turf, sometimes very close to the hole, when they miss a putt...

Sorry, but how is this prat still a member? Any club I've ever been associated with would have this brat suspended at the least and more likely kicked out without a great deal of ado.

LondonJonnyO wrote:I've also seen this kid, and others who are from the same mould, smash putters into greens tearing up sections of turf, sometimes very close to the hole, when they miss a putt.

That sort of behaviour is absolutely unacceptable. In that instance, surely an instant ejection from the club membership is necessary.

I voted 'yes', but it's a very difficult question. As people have mentioned, the trouble is deciding where to draw the line, as it'd be fairly arbitrary and down to subjective discretion. It almost becomes a case of cutting it root and branch, and coming down very hard on anyone who violates the etiquette of the game, with zero tolerance. But, again, can you really dictate how people express themselves? I've ranted at myself at least once on the course, and I'm sure most people understand how easy it is to start fuming. It's a tough game.

(Edit: beaten to it by navyblueshorts. I blame the magic blue font! )

LJ

where the hell did you play golf mate. i have never come across anything like that and ive played with some knobs
i do beleive that teaching kids WHY its not acceptble to throw tantrums on the golf course rather than TELLING them not to do it is the way to deal with it.

but watching the AT&T and after reading your post it reminded me of poulter at the 14th in the US open. when he took that divot out of the fringe i sat there with my mouth wide open. that is the worst thing i have seen from any pro ever.

someone mentioned embarassing the culprits and i think that is a great idea especially if they are adults.

Guys. This is why I'm so harsh with these things. Having seen it and tried to explain it... then been ignored and abused as a result I have no tolerance whatsoever.

If I had my way they kids and their parents would be taught a very harsh lesson about the privileges they have.

It's also a reason why a good friend of mine is taking his pre-teen 60's shooter son out of that environment. And a reason why I'm off to a new club.

I think punishing players for swearing would be very difficult as, like some have said, when does muttering to yourself become something more and also you end up with the same situation as the 'trial by armchair' farce where those followed by the cameras and fans more will be picked up and punished more often.

The dropping of clubs things though i hate with a passion. Some days you watch TW and he half lets go of the club every bloody shot. Even loosening the grip so the club doesn't drop but flies around a bit, which seems to be common now after a bad shot, it just looks like a kid having a tantrum.

I play plenty of bad shots, and i mutter a lot of nasty stuff to myself but i wouldn't drop my clubs in a tantrum.

And i completely agree wtih LJ that the pros doing it really doesn't help at club level.

Good debate though as its still 50/50 so you can appreciate the difficulty the rules officials would have. maybe a compromise rule should be added at each event for the tour players. Obvious wild swings that rip up turf, damage bunkers fences, trees, hedges - 1 shot penalty. After all it will affect the players in the group.

I would definitely like to see it taken out of the game but I don’t think players should be penalized on score card for it... Sorry Dude we saw you mutter under your breath on the 18th hole when you left that put for the 59 half a roll short. We penalized you one stroke for this but you signed for a 60 but with the penalty that should be a 61 so you are DQ.

Ofcourse having players fined for outbursts or club throwing with the money going to charity would be fine in my book. And then you get the question of who reports them and do you need TV evidence to back it up? It would be tough to force their playing partners to snitch on fellow pros so are we relying on the TV vigilantes?

i mutter all sorts of oaths under my breath after almost every shot (unfortunately) but there are those who make it a bit louder and a few who would have half the course hear. now, if someone says b0ll0x within our group, personally, i'm not offended but once they start raising their voice or if someone in the group shows they don't like this, then it has to stop.

some people are not comfortable with swearing, particulalry the sort of aggressive swearing that follows a howler of a shot. it can feel intimidating and sets of a bad "vibe" in the group. that's not acceptable.

club throwing? never, ever is that acceptable. as someone pointed out, the pros get paid a lot of money and with that priviledge comes responsibility. if they can't act responsibly, then they forfeit the priviledge. simples.

there also seems to be a growth in generally louting behaviour which can become aggressive. i've encountered it only a few times and only in the south of england. playing my golf at a historic course in fife, it's known around these parts that that is just not acceptable. sadly, standards outside of areas where golf is ingrained in the culture seem to be slipping. incidentally, you can tell you're in such an area as all public parks have signs advising that golf practice is strictly forbidden!

graeme wrote:ithere also seems to be a growth in generally louting behaviour which can become aggressive. i've encountered it only a few times and only in the south of england. playing my golf at a historic course in fife, it's known around these parts that that is just not acceptable. sadly, standards outside of areas where golf is ingrained in the culture seem to be slipping. incidentally, you can tell you're in such an area as all public parks have signs advising that golf practice is strictly forbidden!

Not a fan of it down south then aye! I live in the south of england and have come across this behaviour as many times at courses int he eat, west, north and in scotland as much as i have down here, so can see how that generalisation is appropriate, but would agree that loutish behaviour is coming to the forefront at many courses these days but i think that in part is down to clubs these days taking in far to many members that are not schooled in the etiquette at time of application in order to fill their numbers and balance the books.

I have to say i swtiched lcubs from a very well known open qualifying links at christmas time those on here that know me are aware of that and the course in question to a parkland course nearer to my new home, and the place knowing that still made me sit through an explanation and read a copy of the clubs etiquette manual and golfs etiquette, which i gladly did. If more clubs did that then problems half way to being solved

it's just that the south of england is where i've encountered it. on a couple of occasions it was like the football hooligans had escaped from the terraces and started weilding golf bats. i was going to have a word on both occasions but a group of foul-mouthed, loud, arrogant nutters with 14 metal sticks each made me keep schtum.

i know there are nutters in scotland but perhaps even they tend to know how to behave on a golf course. at least round our parts. no pop at the south of england, i lived there happily for over 25 years before moving to germany. now there's a country obsessed with etiquette ;-)

graeme wrote:
i know there are nutters in scotland but perhaps even they tend to know how to behave on a golf course. at least round our parts. no pop at the south of england, i lived there happily for over 25 years before moving to germany. now there's a country obsessed with etiquette ;-)

:606laugh: Can't disagree with that, lived there myself, everything about life there has etiquette

Doc wrote: Last week in round 3 of the desert swing we saw one of our top Scandinavians throw his wedge into the drink, followed by his ball once he completed the hole.

Name and shame!!!

Redrage wrote:

Doc wrote: Last week in round 3 of the desert swing we saw one of our top Scandinavians throw his wedge into the drink, followed by his ball once he completed the hole.

Name and shame!!!

Stenson

I think we must bear in mind that golf can be a very frustrating game, and if you are playing it for your livelihood then things can boil over from time to time.

I have never thrown a club in frustration, but I do not play golf to earn a living, if I did then it could be a different story.

To penalise someone for doing so would I think bring the sport into disrepute.