England Six Nations Thread

[Cumbrian]

First topic message reminder :

Squad (From RFU Website):

Backs

Full backs
Mike Brown (Harlequins)
Nathan Earle (Saracens) *
Harry Mallinder (Northampton Saints) *
Jonny May (Leicester Tigers)
Denny Solomona (Sale Sharks)
Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby)

Inside backs
Danny Care (Harlequins)
Owen Farrell (Saracens)
George Ford (Leicester Tigers)
Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby)
Alex Lozowski (Saracens)
Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs)
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs)
Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors)
Marcus Smith (Harlequins) * **
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

Forwards

Back five
Gary Graham (Newcastle Falcons) *
Nick Isiekwe (Saracens)
Maro Itoje (Saracens)
George Kruis (Saracens)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints)
Joe Launchbury (Wasps)
Zach Mercer (Bath Rugby) *
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)
Sam Simmonds (Exeter Chiefs)
Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby)

Front row
Lewis Boyce (Harlequins) *
Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers)
Tom Dunn (Bath Rugby) *
Jamie George (Saracens)
Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints)
Alec Hepburn (Exeter Chiefs) *
Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins)
Mako Vunipola (Saracens)
Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs)

Players unavailable
Tom Curry (Sale Sharks)
Elliot Daly (Wasps)
Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby)
Piers Francis (Northampton Saints)
Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers)
James Haskell (Wasps)
Nathan Hughes (Wasps)
Joe Marler (Harlequins)
Matt Mullan (Wasps)
Beno Obano (Bath Rugby)
Semesa Rokoduguni (Bath Rugby)
Will Spencer (Worcester Warriors)
Billy Vunipola (Saracens)

Uncapped *
Apprentice player **

Fixtures:

*All kick-off times in GMT.


Italy v England
Stadio Olimpico, Rome
Sunday 4th February 2018
Kick Off: 3:00pm

England v Wales
Twickenham Stadium, London
Saturday 10th February 2018
Kick Off: 4:45pm

Scotland v England
BT Murrayfield Stadium, Edinburgh
Saturday 24th February 2018
Kick Off: 4:45pm

France v England
Stade de France, Paris
Saturday 10th March 2018
Kick Off: 4:45pm

England v Ireland
Twickenham Stadium, London
Saturday 17th March 2018
Kick Off: 2:45pm

Officialdom:

Italy v England

Referee: Mathieu Raynal (France)
Assistant 1: Jérôme Garcès (France)
Assistant 2: Nic Berry (Australia)
TMO: Glenn Newman (New Zealand)

England v Wales

Referee: Jérôme Garcès (France)
Assistant 1: Mathieu Reynal (France)
Assistant 2: Nic Berry (Australia)
TMO: Glenn Newman (New Zealand)

Scotland v England

Referee: Nigel Owens (Wales)
Assistant 1: Jérôme Garcès (France)
Assistant 2: Andrew Brace (Ireland)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)

France v England

Referee: Jaco Peyper (South Africa)
Assistant 1: Angus Gardner (Australia)
Assistant 2: Marius van der Westhuizen (South Africa)
TMO: Ben Skeen (New Zealand)

England v Ireland

Referee: Angus Gardner (Australia)
Assistant 1: Jaco Peyper (South Africa)
Assistant 2: Marius van der Westhuizen (South Africa)
TMO: Ben Skeen (New Zealand)

[Poorfour]

Once he realised he was stuck with him I guess. Him was hugely critical of Robshaw and T Youngs.....luckily we have better hookers!

Why would he be stuck with him? He's not short of other options. He hasn't found himself stuck with T Youngs - and there are arguably fewer good hookers in the UK than good flankers.

What Eddie said - when trying to sell newspapers - that Robshaw didn't have a point of differentiaion and was more of a 6.5 than a 7.

Last May he said - as England coach, in the same august organ of the press:

'He's been a fantastic six-and-a-half,' joked Jones. 'Where's the Daily Mail? That was the best column I ever wrote! When you guys write a column and someone doesn't like it you always blame the sub-editor — so I'm blaming my sub-editor!

'As soon as I went to watch him play closely, he was like a Richard Hill. He's one of those guys that works so hard off the ball and does the little things you don't see. That's his greatest attribute.

'He works back and makes that tackle, works back and dives on the ball, gets into the breakdown. It's all the non-glamorous work that he does. He's exceptional at it.

'He's got such a good character and I can't say that more sincerely. He's courteous and he helps out people within the team all the time. When you play 55 Tests in the back row, you're a b***** good player.'

Daily Mail - May 2017

[No 7&1/2]

Slade has picked up an injury undergoing assessment. Shame if he misses out as it's only going to get harder to establish himself for England the more time goes on.

[ChequeredJersey]

Shame, Slade was pressing to start

[kingelderfield]

So at least to begin with we're without all but 2 of our 'Island' players and 1 of those has very limited international experience.
Regardless of all our wealth and depth and our head coaches experience, this situation holds a very interesting mirror up to our recent and future success. How we fare without our 8's especially may well define this generation of players.

[ChequeredJersey]

“island” players?

[No 7&1/2]

What we do in the 6ns will define this generation of players? Think a few of these lads will go on and become greats even if we somehow bombed out and finished 4th ot 5th tbh. Bit concerned about loosehead but still optimistic.

[Geordie]

So who is our two 9/10 players to 4/10 players?

Im a big fan of Robshaw.
However I think the other thing to make clear is.. who of the challengers are actually putting their hand up to seriously challenge him.

Harrison - Failed
Curry x 2 - Still young and developing
Wood - Gone and Done
Underhill - Needs to play every game and stop getting concussed
Haskell - Never repeated his Australia performances...pretty much out now
Jack Clifford - Permanently on the physio table
Mark Wilson - Yes I'm biased, but Robshaws nearest challenger in my eyes. Plays game after game, to very high standard, with as freaky consistency as Robshaw. Don't know why Eddie doesn't rate him
Gary Graham - Wait and see?
Kvesic - Never Made it
Fraser - Permanently injured and retired


Never been selected - Wray, Chisholm, Wallace, Ewers, Armand......

Who else is there who has not only played every game regularly with out getting injured...but also to the standard required?

Cant think of anyone.

[kingelderfield]

Polynesian heritage 'lsland' players, as opposed to British heritage 'Island' players.

[kingelderfield]

By generation I mean this incarnation of English players. EJ's England that is.
We'll either struggle and lose a couple or three  games or we'll give a strong and progressive account of ourselves.
My point is that if its the former then I see the resultant fall out proving to be too much for them to overcome to enable a successful WC challenge.
Time and games are short and realistically we've gone backwards this season.

[cascough]

realistically we've gone backwards this season.

Based on?

[No 7&1/2]

There are fans which are that fickle they would put pressure in jones following 2 or 3 defeats I'd accept that! Not sure where you see us going backwards though. Been quite impressed at how jones is developing the squad and still finding wins myself.

[No 7&1/2]

Quite a comprehensive list of the players who have challenged him geordie. I suppose as posed above is it just those players aren't what Lancaster and jones have been after. From those it would have been really interesting to see Clifford maintain thae form from the start of the season. He was electric and could have challenged for any of the 3 back row positions. So unlucky to get an injury as he did.

[Geordie]

The biggest challenge for England is whether the new young lads who look likely to play, Simmonds, Underhill etc can cope with the intensity and physicality of the 6n..and play all the games (Underhill) instead of getting concussed.
Its all very well Underhill being this beast of a tackler and physically immense...but its useless if he keeps getting knocked out and unable to play two games on the trot!

[kingelderfield]

realistically we've gone backwards this season.

Based on?

The previous years development and performance, and the expectation as opposed to the actual realised potential.

Injury and fatigue are the most immediate reasons for this however, structures and player welfare are the real underlying issues.

[cascough]

realistically we've gone backwards this season.

Based on?

The previous years development and performance, and the expectation as opposed to the actual realised potential.

Injury and fatigue are the most immediate reasons for this however, structures and player welfare are the real underlying issues.

Nice headlines. Please explain.

[kingelderfield]

What we do in the 6ns will define this generation of players? Think a few of these lads will go on and become greats even if we somehow bombed out and finished 4th ot 5th tbh. Bit concerned about loosehead but still optimistic.

I still think McIntyre has enough in him to step up.

[Geordie]

Quite a comprehensive list of the players who have challenged him geordie. I suppose as posed above is it just those players aren't what Lancaster and jones have been after. From those it would have been really interesting to see Clifford maintain thae form from the start of the season. He was electric and could have challenged for any of the 3 back row positions. So unlucky to get an injury as he did.

Theres probably some ive missed 7.5, but I was just trying to show the bulk who have been or are available during Robshaws time, yet not one of them have put in a legitimate challenge for his place in the team.

Soe of them could very well take his place...but they need to show they can play game after gam after game...and do the things that Robshaw does.

Probably:
Clifford - If he can finally get fit
Underhill - Once he sorts out his techniques
Curry x 2 - I'm a HUGE fan of these two.
Simmonds looks a prospect
Ewers actually could be an option, if his workrate matches what Eddie wants

BUT as I said, they all need to match or better what Chris is doing

[kingelderfield]

So who is our two 9/10 players to 4/10 players?

Im a big fan of Robshaw.
However I think the other thing to make clear is.. who of the challengers are actually putting their hand up to seriously challenge him.

Harrison  - Failed
Curry x 2 - Still young and developing
Wood - Gone and Done
Underhill - Needs to play every game and stop getting concussed
Haskell - Never repeated his Australia performances...pretty much out now
Jack Clifford - Permanently on the physio table
Mark Wilson - Yes I'm biased, but Robshaws nearest challenger in my eyes. Plays game after game, to very high standard, with as freaky consistency as Robshaw. Don't know why Eddie doesn't rate him
Gary Graham - Wait and see?
Kvesic - Never Made it
Fraser - Permanently injured and retired


Never been selected - Wray, Chisholm, Wallace, Ewers, Armand......

Who else is there who has not only played every game regularly with out getting injured...but also to the standard required?

Cant think of anyone.

I've been very impressed with Jack Willis and genuinely see him as Haskell's aire much as Haskell was for Dayglo.

As to Robshaw I think you make a good point and by comparison I would suggest he's our McCaw, which in itself tells you something of our situation.

[No 7&1/2]

They ve all challenged geordie just Robshaw is really good to be fair to him.

Hepburn and mcintyre are a similar level so I'd be equally concerned but when you're down to your 6th choices I suppose beggars can't be choosers!

[kingelderfield]

realistically we've gone backwards this season.

Based on?

The previous years development and performance, and the expectation as opposed to the actual realised potential.

Injury and fatigue are the most immediate reasons for this however, structures and player welfare are the real underlying issues.

Nice headlines. Please explain.

Work it out yourself.

[Geordie]

There are a number of potential challengers Kingy, but they have to play at the required level...too many simply aren't!

Theres also Sam Jones just back from that long term injury.

[No 7&1/2]

New players introduced. Won 6ns. Coped with injuries. Tick on those counts. Rested lions players coming back. Tick.

[Poorfour]

As to Robshaw I think you make a good point and by comparison I would suggest he's our McCaw, which in itself tells you something of our situation.  

I wouldn't draw that comparison. McCaw is one of the very few genuine contenders for the title of greatest rugby player of all time, and I don't think anyone has a player of equivalent standards. Even staunch Kiwis would say that their current McCaw analogues don't bear comparison to the great man.

A much fairer comparison is that Robshaw is very like Richard Hill, and very close in terms of standards. England only missed Hill when he wasn't available. England's poor performances last season corresponded to when Robshaw wasn't available.

[ChequeredJersey]

If our backrow, a set of positions which is pretty key to a cohesive rugby team, is as mediocre as many seem to think, with a bang average 6 and no options to possibly replace him, no “genuine 7 (tm)”, and missing the supercarrier 8 our gameplan apparently revolves around for the last full year of rugby, then it’s amaxing we are winning any games against top sides, never mind all of them except the one that saw our average 6 not playing and our vital 8 starting their only match in that period!

[kingelderfield]

They ve all challenged geordie just Robshaw is really good to be fair to him.

Hepburn and mcintyre are a similar level so I'd be equally concerned but when you're down to your 6th choices I suppose beggars can't be choosers!

It's such a shame regards Marler who I think is our best scrummaging LH. He's been looking in good form and really needed to step up to carry some of the burden that has been placed on Vunipola's shoulders. In fact I would have been happy for him to start. Sadly however his demise was all too predictable and so where does that leave us going forward. Can he be trusted? Probably not.

As to the young Bristolian Tiger, well his time will certainly come again and yet what a curse these injuries are.

So the question is, is there enough cotton wool to rap Mako in?

[kingelderfield]

As to Robshaw I think you make a good point and by comparison I would suggest he's our McCaw, which in itself tells you something of our situation.  

I wouldn't draw that comparison. McCaw is one of the very few genuine contenders for the title of greatest rugby player of all time, and I don't think anyone has a player of equivalent standards. Even staunch Kiwis would say that their current McCaw analogues don't bear comparison to the great man.

A much fairer comparison is that Robshaw is very like Richard Hill, and very close in terms of standards. England only missed Hill when he wasn't available. England's poor performances last season corresponded to when Robshaw wasn't available.

I stand corrected.....back in the naughty corner, though I'm sure you appreciated my exaggeration was deliberate.

Hill was better though.

[No 7&1/2]

Thought it was obano who was the rapping prop. Where does the untapped potential lie then king?

[cascough]

realistically we've gone backwards this season.

Based on?

The previous years development and performance, and the expectation as opposed to the actual realised potential.

Injury and fatigue are the most immediate reasons for this however, structures and player welfare are the real underlying issues.

Nice headlines. Please explain.

Work it out yourself.

HAHAHAHA! How should I do that? You haven't said anything yet! If you're going to present something without evidence, prepare for it to be dismissed without evidence.

[cascough]

They ve all challenged geordie just Robshaw is really good to be fair to him.

Hepburn and mcintyre are a similar level so I'd be equally concerned but when you're down to your 6th choices I suppose beggars can't be choosers!

I'm a big fan of Hepburn and I reckon had he not had so many injury problems he'd have been capped long before now. He certainly impressed with the Saxons in SA. Really excited to see him get a go. That being said, I'd love to see Lewis Boyce go well to, I think he's a cracking prospect.

I think any time you're in a position where the starter is a 6 cap British Lion and the bench options are two good prospects, it's a happy place.

[Geordie]

They ve all challenged geordie just Robshaw is really good to be fair to him.

Hepburn and mcintyre are a similar level so I'd be equally concerned but when you're down to your 6th choices I suppose beggars can't be choosers!

I'm a big fan of Hepburn and I reckon had he not had so many injury problems he'd have been capped long before now. He certainly impressed with the Saxons in SA. Really excited to see him get a go. That being said, I'd love to see Lewis Boyce go well to, I think he's a cracking prospect.

I think any time you're in a position where the starter is a 6 cap British Lion and the bench options are two good prospects, it's a happy place.

Cant argue with that Cascough

[No 7&1/2]

It's vunipola starting against France and Ireland in the scrum which concerns me. So important we get the setpiece rights against those 2. Hatley and borthwick could be the 2 most important factors this tournament.

[kingelderfield]

If our backrow, a set of positions which is pretty key to a cohesive rugby team, is as mediocre as many seem to think, with a bang average 6 and no options to possibly replace him, no “genuine 7 (tm)”, and missing the supercarrier 8 our gameplan apparently revolves around for the last full year of rugby, then it’s amaxing we are winning any games against top sides, never mind all of them except the one that saw our average 6 not playing and our vital 8 starting their only match in that period!

Damned poor selection. BV should have started from the bench. Otherwise Hughes has been carrying the can in the majority of other games.

Haskell might have a game or two left, very doubtful and anyway he's been out for some time now.

Obviously the real questions are;

1 How we will fare without either Vunipola or Hughes?

2 Do we continue with Itoje covering 6 or pick one of the young bucks coming through?

3 How will the revolutionary tackle/ruck Law changes reshape the work of the back row forward? I think this is very interesting and though the 6N may tell us more, I don't think it will be until the AB's really get their hands on it in the 4N that we will begin to form a fuller understanding.

[lostinwales]

It's vunipola starting against France and Ireland in the scrum which concerns me. So important we get the setpiece rights against those 2. Hatley and borthwick could be the 2 most important factors this tournament.

Marler will be back for Ireland. Can't remember if he'll be available for France.

[No 7&1/2]

Of course cheers lost.

[No 7&1/2]

1. Ok. Simmonds is in real form. Can't wait until mercer establishes himself as he's quality. He injuries could give him that chance sooner than otherwise expected.
2. It was lawes here last year but with underhill available and simmonds as a possible 7 can't see it happening or I really hope it doesn't!
3. There really isn't that much of a difference.

[Geordie]

I think Mercer will definitely get a run out v Italy. His performance in certain aspects of the game will dictate whether Jones feels his ready for a marauding Ireland!

[kingelderfield]

Thought it was obano who was the rapping prop. Where does the untapped potential lie then king?

Well done, good try:)

Actually when I listened to it it was pretty embarrassing for him, on the podcast that is.

I know we've discussed this before, but honestly I do think it comes down to player welfare and our club country structure just doesn't allow the guiding intervention from the Union to protect and manage player performance.

I've said it before but the rfu needs to splash the cash and dramatically reduce the game time for the privileged few.

[No 7&1/2]

Jones says we currently have 4 world class players or close to it. Itoje Farrell vunipola and watson.

Few but not the many king. Where do you feel our untapped potential is then king or is it simply that it will come with more rest?

[Geordie]

Where does Billy stand in that at his best. For all he may be quite predictable, he's almost unplayable at times doing that predictable thing.

[lostinwales]

Where does Billy stand in that at his best. For all he may be quite predictable, he's almost unplayable at times doing that predictable thing.

Billy is a one man wrecking ball. On his day he wins games on his own. He just is not a rounded player (not in skills anyway) but he has a ridiculous stamina level for someone so big, and he does have skills.. He has to be the best ball carrier in traffic in the game, but some people like their no.8's to do different things so he'll never be the undisputed no.1

[Scottrf]

realistically we've gone backwards this season.

Based on?

The previous years development and performance, and the expectation as opposed to the actual realised potential.

Injury and fatigue are the most immediate reasons for this however, structures and player welfare are the real underlying issues.

Nice headlines. Please explain.

Work it out yourself.

HAHAHAHA! How should I do that? You haven't said anything yet! If you're going to present something without evidence, prepare for it to be dismissed without evidence.

Pretty much all of the Lions with the most minutes this season are English. In fact the top 10. Most of the other nations players who went have had a very light workload since.

[Sgt_Pooly]

Ah....Robshaw is reaching the Richard Hill comparison level from some posters, very interesting. Next we'll be hearing how he does a lot of "unseen work" and he allows others to look good....

I've also noticed he seems to get a little better when he's not playing, the true sign of a great player.

Truth is, he's a decent flanker that goes about his business and doesn't make too many mistakes. He is never going to set the world on fire but he's steady eddy and will always give his all. People get extremely defensive when you suggest he's not amazing (Mostly Quins fans), but we have a very similar type player at Falcons.....Will Welch.

Rather than suggesting Robshaw is like Richard Hill (he isn't), I would suggest he's like Will Welch, but with better hands.

[Scottrf]

Will Welch 0 Caps
Chris Robshaw 59
Richard Hill 71.

Looks more similar to Hill.

[cascough]

It's vunipola starting against France and Ireland in the scrum which concerns me. So important we get the setpiece rights against those 2. Hatley and borthwick could be the 2 most important factors this tournament.

Marler will be back for Ireland. Can't remember if he'll be available for France.

He will. France is round 4, Ireland is round 5.

[Sgt_Pooly]

Will Welch 0 Caps
Chris Robshaw 59
Richard Hill 71.

Looks more similar to Hill.

Playing for an unfashionable club has hampered Welch from ever getting recognised, Robshaw is also a better player, but not by much.

The margin from Welch to Robshaw is much smaller than from Robshaw to Hill. Robshaw could get 200 caps but he'd still be nowhere near the level Hill was, it's a lazy comparison.

[Nottswasp]

I can see the robshaw in the Richard hill mold arguement....but Richard hill was also a class 7 and could play no 8...oh and a 3 tour lion test player I think?

Robshaw is a solid quality player when playing at blindside

[cascough]

Ah....Robshaw is reaching the Richard Hill comparison level from some posters, very interesting. Next we'll be hearing how he does a lot of "unseen work" and he allows others to look good....

To be fair, Eddie Jones made that comparison and said pretty much exactly those words. I think someone has even posted the link to the interview in this thread?

Not that I'm saying Jones is right about everything, or that people shouldn't make up their own minds, but given what he's said, it's hardly outrageous that other people should hold a similar opinion.

[Sgt_Pooly]

We all know Eddie likes to talk poop every now and again.

[Scottrf]

I got an email from Saints saying I had tickets for the Wales game. Then an email an hour later saying it was an IT error and I didn't.

[Scottrf]

We all know Eddie likes to talk poop every now and again.

Does he select poop?

Djokovic isn't flashy. I don't see many tennis fans saying he's not a top level player.

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