England Six Nations Thread

[Cumbrian]

First topic message reminder :

Squad (From RFU Website):

Backs

Full backs
Mike Brown (Harlequins)
Nathan Earle (Saracens) *
Harry Mallinder (Northampton Saints) *
Jonny May (Leicester Tigers)
Denny Solomona (Sale Sharks)
Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby)

Inside backs
Danny Care (Harlequins)
Owen Farrell (Saracens)
George Ford (Leicester Tigers)
Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby)
Alex Lozowski (Saracens)
Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs)
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs)
Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors)
Marcus Smith (Harlequins) * **
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

Forwards

Back five
Gary Graham (Newcastle Falcons) *
Nick Isiekwe (Saracens)
Maro Itoje (Saracens)
George Kruis (Saracens)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints)
Joe Launchbury (Wasps)
Zach Mercer (Bath Rugby) *
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)
Sam Simmonds (Exeter Chiefs)
Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby)

Front row
Lewis Boyce (Harlequins) *
Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers)
Tom Dunn (Bath Rugby) *
Jamie George (Saracens)
Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints)
Alec Hepburn (Exeter Chiefs) *
Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins)
Mako Vunipola (Saracens)
Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs)

Players unavailable
Tom Curry (Sale Sharks)
Elliot Daly (Wasps)
Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby)
Piers Francis (Northampton Saints)
Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers)
James Haskell (Wasps)
Nathan Hughes (Wasps)
Joe Marler (Harlequins)
Matt Mullan (Wasps)
Beno Obano (Bath Rugby)
Semesa Rokoduguni (Bath Rugby)
Will Spencer (Worcester Warriors)
Billy Vunipola (Saracens)

Uncapped *
Apprentice player **

Fixtures:

*All kick-off times in GMT.


Italy v England
Stadio Olimpico, Rome
Sunday 4th February 2018
Kick Off: 3:00pm

England v Wales
Twickenham Stadium, London
Saturday 10th February 2018
Kick Off: 4:45pm

Scotland v England
BT Murrayfield Stadium, Edinburgh
Saturday 24th February 2018
Kick Off: 4:45pm

France v England
Stade de France, Paris
Saturday 10th March 2018
Kick Off: 4:45pm

England v Ireland
Twickenham Stadium, London
Saturday 17th March 2018
Kick Off: 2:45pm

Officialdom:

Italy v England

Referee: Mathieu Raynal (France)
Assistant 1: Jérôme Garcès (France)
Assistant 2: Nic Berry (Australia)
TMO: Glenn Newman (New Zealand)

England v Wales

Referee: Jérôme Garcès (France)
Assistant 1: Mathieu Reynal (France)
Assistant 2: Nic Berry (Australia)
TMO: Glenn Newman (New Zealand)

Scotland v England

Referee: Nigel Owens (Wales)
Assistant 1: Jérôme Garcès (France)
Assistant 2: Andrew Brace (Ireland)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)

France v England

Referee: Jaco Peyper (South Africa)
Assistant 1: Angus Gardner (Australia)
Assistant 2: Marius van der Westhuizen (South Africa)
TMO: Ben Skeen (New Zealand)

England v Ireland

Referee: Angus Gardner (Australia)
Assistant 1: Jaco Peyper (South Africa)
Assistant 2: Marius van der Westhuizen (South Africa)
TMO: Ben Skeen (New Zealand)

[Poorfour]

Ah....Robshaw is reaching the Richard Hill comparison level from some posters, very interesting. Next we'll be hearing how he does a lot of "unseen work" and he allows others to look good....

I've also noticed he seems to get a little better when he's not playing, the true sign of a great player.

Truth is, he's a decent flanker that goes about his business and doesn't make too many mistakes. He is never going to set the world on fire but he's steady eddy and will always give his all. People get extremely defensive when you suggest he's not amazing (Mostly Quins fans), but we have a very similar type player at Falcons.....Will Welch.

Rather than suggesting Robshaw is like Richard Hill (he isn't), I would suggest he's like Will Welch, but with better hands.

Pooly, the point is that it's not a bunch of random posters saying it, it's Eddie. He says it, in so many words, in the article I quoted and linked. And then goes on to explain why he said it. Which, surprise surprise, includes all the unseen work that he didn't see until he looked really closely.

I don't buy the "Eddie talks poop" argument. Eddie the pundit said what he needed to say to sell newspapers. Eddie the coach has been remarkably consistent in what he's said about all his players, even allowing for a bit of man-management (as in taking the blame for the Ireland game - "I clearly didn't prepare them well enough.")

But anyway, it's not just Eddie. Conor O'Shea also said that even after several years as Quins DoR he was still surprised each week watching the video analysis and seeing all the things Robshaw did that he hadn't spotted live. There's a difference between fan opinion and the opinion of professional coaches, and people who have coached Robshaw have been saying it consistently for years.

I also don't think anyone has said that he gets better when he's not playing. But England's poorest performances under Eddie coincided with Robshaw's injury. We're unlikely to convince you, but why not do what the coaches do and watch one of this year's matches again, looking out specifically for what he's doing?

[Barney McGrew did it]

No doubt in my mind, when we lose Robshaw we're a worse side. 1st name on the team sheet for me.

[Scottrf]

No doubt in my mind, when we lose Robshaw we're a worse side. 1st name on the team sheet for me.

Vunipola for me. Much better LH.

[compelling and rich]

No doubt in my mind, when we lose Robshaw we're a worse side. 1st name on the team sheet for me.

with the exception of billy if he's fit and firing id go with that, and i was a fairly big doubter of robshaw when lancaster was in charge

[Collapse2005]

I don't see Robshaw why shouldn't be compared to Hill. Both very good players. Hill more of a leader but Id say Robshaw is a better player.

[Cumbrian]

I don't see Robshaw why shouldn't be compared to Hill. Both very good players. Hill more of a leader but Id say Robshaw is a better player.

I think we're getting a little side tracked but I simply have to disagree with that. I am a fan of Robshaw but Richard Hill was one of our greatest flankers, he was in a different league. If somebody offered me a young and fit Richard Hill coming into the England side now, I think I would sacrifice my first born son to the gods!

[Rugby Fan]

If you put together a highlight reel for Robshaw, it would probably look more like a blooper reel for his team mates.

He rarely makes an eye-catching play. There was a great break against New Zealand, early in the first 2014 tour Test. It could have ended in a score but Haskell was tackled off the ball illegally. Aside from that, I can't remember much else. He has scored a total of two test tries in 59 games, one of which was against Italy, and I don't remember that one either.

I do remember him cleaning up lots of terrible ball when it has been slapped back, or fumbled by others. His try against Australia was an example of him being first to react to an opposition overthrow. He almost got another one that way on tour last year, but was held up. Vunipola went over from the resulting scrum.

Robshaw gets back into position quickly, and can usually be seen defending in the right spaces when the opposition has started to go through a lot of phases. He doesn't get heavily penalized, and referees aren't going into a game thinking he might be trouble (unlike, say, Hooper). When England are having a collective brain fart, it's often Robshaw who stops that moment turning into scores for the opposition.

Jones got the best out of Robshaw with Vunipola and Haskell. Not every combination is going to suit him, however, and it might be that the lack of a dominant eight (or someone playing cleverly, like Easter did for Quins) will be the wrong balance.

[thomh]

He has scored a total of two test tries in 59 games, one of which was against Italy, and I don't remember that one either.

Very end of the match in 2014 when we needed to win by 50-60odd to win the six nations. Ford had just come on and made a break before popping an inside ball to Robshaw, who pretty much collapsed over the line with exhaustion.

[TightHEAD]

Robshaw better than Hill , I'll have some of what you're taking.

[eirebilly]

Do ye all think that Jones will stay with the Ford 10 - Farrell 12 pairing?

I think he would be better just putting Farrell at 10 myself.

[No 7&1/2]

Ford and farell will start at 10 and 12.

[TightHEAD]

Ford is in possession of the No10 shirt for now.

Eddie likes to keep players in who have performed for him in the past, why change it if its working.

[Scottrf]

Do ye all think that Jones will stay with the Ford 10 - Farrell 12 pairing?

I think he would be better just putting Farrell at 10 myself.

Not a chance. That's the foundation of our attack.

We have far more pressing worries, our backrow and the fact that almost none of our players are in form.

[SecretFly]

Do ye all think that Jones will stay with the Ford 10 - Farrell 12 pairing?

I think he would be better just putting Farrell at 10 myself.

Not a chance. That's the foundation of our attack.

We have far more pressing worries, our backrow and the fact that almost none of our players are in form.

Good bluff by the way

Eddie busy telling his hopefuls to keep their powder dry through the Christmas/New Year period.  "Keep pretending you are f**ked, boys.  Keep looking breathless and heavy legged.  The eejits WILL fall for it.  They will.  Eejits can't help being eejits.  And then.................. and then............. we'll massacreise the entire bunch of 'em!!!!!!  *evil laugh*"

[lostinwales]

If you put together a highlight reel for Robshaw, it would probably look more like a blooper reel for his team mates.

He rarely makes an eye-catching play. There was a great break against New Zealand, early in the first 2014 tour Test. It could have ended in a score but Haskell was tackled off the ball illegally. Aside from that, I can't remember much else. He has scored a total of two test tries in 59 games, one of which was against Italy, and I don't remember that one either.

I do remember him cleaning up lots of terrible ball when it has been slapped back, or fumbled by others. His try against Australia was an example of him being first to react to an opposition overthrow. He almost got another one that way on tour last year, but was held up. Vunipola went over from the resulting scrum.

Robshaw gets back into position quickly, and can usually be seen defending in the right spaces when the opposition has started to go through a lot of phases. He doesn't get heavily penalized, and referees aren't going into a game thinking he might be trouble (unlike, say, Hooper). When England are having a collective brain fart, it's often Robshaw who stops that moment turning into scores for the opposition.

Jones got the best out of Robshaw with Vunipola and Haskell. Not every combination is going to suit him, however, and it might be that the lack of a dominant eight (or someone playing cleverly, like Easter did for Quins) will be the wrong balance.

I remember a few year's back when Steffon Armitage was still all the rage and there was a comparison between him and Robshaw over pilfering the ball. The results of the analysis was that Steffon got a lot more turnovers but also gave away a stack of penalties. Robshaw just tended to go for turnovers when it was vital or when it was easy and just didn't give anything like as many penalties.

[Geordie]

With regards to Robshaw, at the moment, its irrelevant whether you hate him, like him or love him...he'll be starting this 6n.

The biggest issue is the form of most of the players.
Will Eddie have them back in form?

[Cumbrian]

With regards to Robshaw, at the moment, its irrelevant whether you hate him, like him or love him...he'll be starting this 6n.

The biggest issue is the form of most of the players.
Will Eddie have them back in form?

Agree with that and his experience will be needed, it is likely going to be a very green back-row for a number of the games. The club form for some key players has been fairly rotten. Luckily players do tend to raise their game for England.

[Rugby Fan]

The biggest issue is the form of most of the players.
Will Eddie have them back in form?

Agree with that and his experience will be needed, it is likely going to be a very green back-row for a number of the games.  The club form for some key players has been fairly rotten.  Luckily players do tend to raise their game for England.  

Who do we reckon is in form right now? Less than half a dozen are probably near their best form; most are showing around 70-80% of their best, while a few still look a bit out of sorts. Or is that too pessimistic?

I'm a bit worried that the explanation for indifferent form is the post-Lions hangover. This season, we've got a three Test summer tour of South Africa coming up which isn't going to be a holiday. We follow that up with South Africa, New Zealand, Japan & Australia in the Autumn, which is the hardest November schedule we've had since 2014.

Although it's argued that Aviva teams need their best players because of the threat of relegation, few teams this year were really under that pressure because Irish started losing matches early in the season. Most teams kept playing their England stars because they want a top six finish. Next year, however, Bristol are coming up with their cheque book, threatening to be a stronger proposition than London Irish. There could easily be a much tastier relegation battle, as well as a fight for the top places.

In short, the Aviva isn't going to get any easier for England players next season. If we are tired now, then it's hard to see how that will change for the better any time before the World Cup.

[Geordie]

Probably another reason to ring fence the league...but that for another discussion elsewhere.

At least its Italy up first. Whilst they need to show them respect, it also means they don't have a hard up test straight away.

[munkian]

Shingler sent home with a possible hamstring strain.

One question, how does a camp in Portugal prepare a team for February in the UK/Ireland ?

[munkian]

Sinckler sent home with a possible hamstring strain.

One question, how does a camp in Portugal prepare a team for February in the UK/Ireland ?

[Scottrf]

They are getting drunk and hitting on Portuguese women.

But shh, don't tell anyone.

[TrailApe]

One question, how does a camp in Portugal prepare a team for February in the UK/Ireland

First game is in Italy - which is on the same latitude as Portugal.

Simples

[No 7&1/2]

Thomas called up in place of the injured sinckler as mentioned above. He's a guy who looked very promising when he came on the scene. Been suffering from injuries for a while but could be a surprise this 6Ns.

[propdavid_london]

That's one less carrying option then - great

[No 7&1/2]

Williams comes in so not a huge step down to be fair.

[TightHEAD]

I remember a few year's back when Steffon Armitage was still all the rage and there was a comparison between him and Robshaw over pilfering the ball. The results of the analysis was that Steffon got a lot more turnovers but also gave away a stack of penalties. Robshaw just tended to go for turnovers when it was vital or when it was easy and just didn't give anything like as many penalties.

What ever happened to him, is he still driving round in his convertible Rolls Royce?

[ChequeredJersey]

Robshaw is amazing, he is much better than Welch and quite a bit better than Wilson, he has won Premiership player of the war and a lot of Caps at 7, outplaying some of the world’s best 7s in the process, so saying he can’t play 7 is a tad silly.

Despite all that, he is not anywhere near Hill level. Hill was the greatest 6 of all time

[RDW]

https://www.606v2.com/t67097-606v2-espn-fantasy-league#3666129

[ChequeredJersey]

Ah....Robshaw is reaching the Richard Hill comparison level from some posters, very interesting. Next we'll be hearing how he does a lot of "unseen work" and he allows others to look good....

I've also noticed he seems to get a little better when he's not playing, the true sign of a great player.

Truth is, he's a decent flanker that goes about his business and doesn't make too many mistakes. He is never going to set the world on fire but he's steady eddy and will always give his all. People get extremely defensive when you suggest he's not amazing (Mostly Quins fans), but we have a very similar type player at Falcons.....Will Welch.

Rather than suggesting Robshaw is like Richard Hill (he isn't), I would suggest he's like Will Welch, but with better hands.

In fairness Poole, you do seem to like to bring up various players and how you don’t rate them out of the blue. Fine to have the strong opinions but can be relatively annoying and one sided when the mention of a few players is instantly followed by a Pavlovian “I don’t rate them”, which I think is fair to challenge.

Admittedly, in this thread and context of the balance of our backrow and who starts, I think it’s pretty reasonable to criticise Robshaw at 6. He will start at 6 though, mad to try yet MORE new players in an unsettled pack and backrow especially, and the Itoje/Lawes at 6 experimentation has largely been subpar at international level, if I’m kind

[Sgt_Pooly]

But I do rate him.....just not as World class or as a top Int flanker. His lack of Lions action sums him up for me, he's just not that good. The Hill comparison was one of the most absurd things I've heard on here recently, although possibly posted by a 15yo so can be forgiven.

[No 7&1/2]

I take lions with a punch of salt. 4 years ago gatland decided to use one match as key and ignore he previous year. This time scotland were ignored . He's a plum sometimes.

[ChequeredJersey]

I mean this year he was injured at the wrong time for Lions selection!

But yeah, Hill is one of the greats. Ain’t no England flanker been at that level since, and the comparison also falls because they are more different player types than it seems popular to claim.

[Sgt_Pooly]

Robshaw had zero chance of touring with the Lions, fit or not.

[ChequeredJersey]

Well that one we will never know the answer to! I suspect you are right but for reasons of who was doing the selecting rather than anything else

[SecretFly]

I take lions with a punch of salt. 4 years ago gatland decided to use one match as key and ignore he previous year. This time scotland were ignored . He's a plum sometimes.

I most definitely agree.  In the old days of amateurism maybe this idea of the 'best' of the islands coming together under the 'best' coach worked - but all I see it as now is a gossipy and affected-intrigue driven invitation side with mucho politics always informing the decisions, and a side that virtually none of the Nations independently now need to help them beat the opposition they play against.

Not being chosen for the LIONS seems a bit of a slur in this current age - a slimy stick to beat a good player with when the arguments about his lack of ability come up short.  "But...but he's never been a Lion!"  Good for him.  Never joined the circus.

[doctor_grey]

a slimy stick?
slimy?

[SecretFly]

em..........................

*blush*

*frantically looking up the dictionary*

em..........yep...............

a slimy stick.................

?




.............................. now nothing post-watershed on my brain there....... so....don't go accusing me of bringing the game into disrepute.

[yappysnap]

With regards to Robshaw, at the moment, its irrelevant whether you hate him, like him or love him...he'll be starting this 6n.

The biggest issue is the form of most of the players.
Will Eddie have them back in form?

Agree with that and his experience will be needed, it is likely going to be a very green back-row for a number of the games.  The club form for some key players has been fairly rotten.  Luckily players do tend to raise their game for England.  

By contrast Robshaws club form this season has been brilliant. A summer off has left him looking fresh and all action.

[yappysnap]

Other players in form?

Care, Marcus Smith, Lawes, Simmonds, Mercer, Boyce.

Not the most helpful list tbh

[cascough]

The Hill comparison was one of the most absurd things I've heard on here recently, although possibly posted by a 15yo so can be forgiven.

Eddie Jones said that. Eddie Jones.

[Poorfour]

The Hill comparison was one of the most absurd things I've heard on here recently, although possibly posted by a 15yo so can be forgiven.

Eddie Jones said that. Eddie Jones.

Eddie would probably be delighted at getting 45 years of his life back.

Anyway, as Mike Brown said in his Guardian interview:

I’m here for a reason, Eddie backs me and he’s the only voice I’ve got to listen to. If he thinks I can still do a job that’s the only advice I need.

[Sgt_Pooly]

Obviously very much tongue in cheek Cascough, Eddie likes to pull legs.

[Scottrf]

It obviously wasn't tongue in cheek. Just because you don't agree?

"As soon as I went to watch him play closely, he was like a Richard Hill. He's one of those guys that works so hard off the ball and does the little things you don't see. That's his greatest attribute"

'He works back and makes that tackle, works back and dives on the ball, gets into the breakdown. It's all the non-glamorous work that he does. He's exceptional at it.

'He's got such a good character and I can't say that more sincerely. He's courteous and he helps out people within the team all the time. When you play 55 Tests in the back row, you're a b***** good player."

In what world is that a tongue in cheek comment?

[Sgt_Pooly]

How do you know it isn't?

[Geordie]

Either way ....Robshaw will start on Sunday 4th Feb in Italy.

Next.

Underhill and SImmonds will probably be joining him aswell. Are you happy with that back row?

What about the front 5?

1 Mako
2 Hartley
3 Cole
4 Itoje
5 ?? Lawes / Kruis / Launchbury

[Scottrf]

How do you know it isn't?

Because I can read. Pretty obvious to me the sort of comments which are humour.

[Sgt_Pooly]

Ah....Ok, you don't then. All opinions end of the day, nothing worth getting your knickers in a twist over.

[Scottrf]

Ah....Ok, you don't then. All opinions end of the day, nothing worth getting your knickers in a twist over.

It's called context. You can judge the intended meaning of a statement by the words and sentences surrounding it. Very clearly the paragraphs are intended to be serious.

[Sgt_Pooly]

Ah....Ok, you don't then. All opinions end of the day, nothing worth getting your knickers in a twist over.

It's called context. You can judge the intended meaning of a statement by the words and sentences surrounding it. Very clearly the paragraphs are intended to be serious.

In your opinion perhaps. Judging by previous comments I suspect Eddie is playing a little.

I guess we'll never know....

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