England Six Nations Thread

[Cumbrian]

First topic message reminder :

Squad (From RFU Website):

Backs

Full backs
Mike Brown (Harlequins)
Nathan Earle (Saracens) *
Harry Mallinder (Northampton Saints) *
Jonny May (Leicester Tigers)
Denny Solomona (Sale Sharks)
Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby)

Inside backs
Danny Care (Harlequins)
Owen Farrell (Saracens)
George Ford (Leicester Tigers)
Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby)
Alex Lozowski (Saracens)
Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs)
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs)
Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors)
Marcus Smith (Harlequins) * **
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

Forwards

Back five
Gary Graham (Newcastle Falcons) *
Nick Isiekwe (Saracens)
Maro Itoje (Saracens)
George Kruis (Saracens)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints)
Joe Launchbury (Wasps)
Zach Mercer (Bath Rugby) *
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)
Sam Simmonds (Exeter Chiefs)
Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby)

Front row
Lewis Boyce (Harlequins) *
Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers)
Tom Dunn (Bath Rugby) *
Jamie George (Saracens)
Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints)
Alec Hepburn (Exeter Chiefs) *
Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins)
Mako Vunipola (Saracens)
Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs)

Players unavailable
Tom Curry (Sale Sharks)
Elliot Daly (Wasps)
Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby)
Piers Francis (Northampton Saints)
Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers)
James Haskell (Wasps)
Nathan Hughes (Wasps)
Joe Marler (Harlequins)
Matt Mullan (Wasps)
Beno Obano (Bath Rugby)
Semesa Rokoduguni (Bath Rugby)
Will Spencer (Worcester Warriors)
Billy Vunipola (Saracens)

Uncapped *
Apprentice player **

Fixtures:

*All kick-off times in GMT.


Italy v England
Stadio Olimpico, Rome
Sunday 4th February 2018
Kick Off: 3:00pm

England v Wales
Twickenham Stadium, London
Saturday 10th February 2018
Kick Off: 4:45pm

Scotland v England
BT Murrayfield Stadium, Edinburgh
Saturday 24th February 2018
Kick Off: 4:45pm

France v England
Stade de France, Paris
Saturday 10th March 2018
Kick Off: 4:45pm

England v Ireland
Twickenham Stadium, London
Saturday 17th March 2018
Kick Off: 2:45pm

Officialdom:

Italy v England

Referee: Mathieu Raynal (France)
Assistant 1: Jérôme Garcès (France)
Assistant 2: Nic Berry (Australia)
TMO: Glenn Newman (New Zealand)

England v Wales

Referee: Jérôme Garcès (France)
Assistant 1: Mathieu Reynal (France)
Assistant 2: Nic Berry (Australia)
TMO: Glenn Newman (New Zealand)

Scotland v England

Referee: Nigel Owens (Wales)
Assistant 1: Jérôme Garcès (France)
Assistant 2: Andrew Brace (Ireland)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)

France v England

Referee: Jaco Peyper (South Africa)
Assistant 1: Angus Gardner (Australia)
Assistant 2: Marius van der Westhuizen (South Africa)
TMO: Ben Skeen (New Zealand)

England v Ireland

Referee: Angus Gardner (Australia)
Assistant 1: Jaco Peyper (South Africa)
Assistant 2: Marius van der Westhuizen (South Africa)
TMO: Ben Skeen (New Zealand)

[Poorfour]

I think we can know, Pooly. There's a very consistent pattern of behaviour from Eddie here:

"To come back and play such a pivotal role in the resurrection of the team, I think it is just outstanding,"

"To go from where he was at the end of the World Cup to where he is now is a fine achievement. Everyone in the team appreciates the work he does on and off the field, behind the scenes.

"At the end of training he's always helping guys with other areas of their game and he's just been colossal for us.

"To be splashed on the papers, basically the villain of English rugby, and have to endure the captaincy debate, which I didn't help but was necessary.

"It would have been easy for him to go back to Harlequins and ply his trade there and have a nice easy life but he really wanted to continue playing for England."

Jones, who coached Japan at the World Cup and succeeded Stuart Lancaster as England coach in November, said Robshaw had been "absolutely fantastic".

He added: "He's done it himself. I've just given him a little bit of guidance. The guidance I've given him is what can his new goals be - he can be the best number six in European rugby.

"If you were picking a Six Nations team now, he would definitely get in a best 15 at number six."

It is great to welcome back Chris Robshaw into the squad. He would have been disappointed to miss the first Test but has worked hard to be ready for this weekend.

“Robbo has been one of England’s best players over the last two years and he will add a lot of experience and work rate into our backrow."

“What I admire about him is the consistency of his application of effort,” said Jones.

“He understands his game beautifully and doesn’t try to play outside his game. He maximises what he’s got and he’s such a positive character around the team.

“Robbo will play the way he plays every week and that’s absolutely selfless for the team. He’ll do his tackles, go for the ball, get back up after the Samoans make a line break and he’ll just keep working. There’ll be no changes despite the number on his back.”

Add in the original "like a Richard Hill" quote above, and that's at least four times after four different series that Eddie's delivered extended praise for Robshaw. If it's intended as a joke, he's going to pretty extreme lengths to set up what would be an exceptionally cruel punchline (and one that would be actively demotivating to the rest of the squad)

(If you really want to see everything Eddie has said about Robshaw, someone (it wasn't me, honest!) seems to have assembled a pinterest board of every piece of news coverage on the guy: Not at all stalkerish, honest)

[Sgt_Pooly]

Coach praises player who he previously slated shocker.......

It was the Richard Hill comment that I was getting at.

[hugehandoff]

Do we think that due to injuries Eddie will select Lawes at 6 with Launchbury/Itoje in the engine room and Robshaw at 7? Not ideal but Underhill is not match fit and needs must and all that? I think he needs to play his strongest team against Italy to give them a run out prior to Wales.

[mid_gen]

Lawes 6 and Robshaw 7 is probably our best form & fit flanker combination.

If we're bedding in a new 8 for the tournament I'd rather he be....flanked...by two experienced heads.

[Scottrf]

One banterous dig surrounded by a string of heavy praise both at the time and in previous/subsequent comments or a serious comment generally in line with everything else he's said about the player since he's worked with him.

You're being obtuse.

[Sgt_Pooly]

Attack the post, not the poster Scotty

I think it's time to move on, I imagine this is getting quite boring for everyone and not hugely linked to the original thread. I'm more than happy to agree to disagree on the interpretation of Eddie's comments and the abilty (or lack of) of Mr Chris Robshaw.

[Cumbrian]

Kyle Sinckler has left the Portugal training camp due to a calf strain. The number of injuries is getting very concerning and it is perhaps somewhat of a blessing that the Anglo-Welsh Cup is taking place over the next couple of weeks (how many times do you hear that?!). You would hope that the 6N squad lads will be worked a little easier over the next fortnight.

[Geordie]

I better get my boots polished and dust of the kit....

[SecretFly]

Kyle Sinckler has left the Portugal training camp due to a calf strain.   The number of injuries is getting very concerning and it is perhaps somewhat of a blessing that the Anglo-Welsh Cup is taking place over the next couple of weeks (how many times do you hear that?!).  You would hope that the 6N squad lads will be worked a little easier over the next fortnight.

It's a two edged sword.... this concept by some coaches that there is never a tough enough pre-tournament training schedule.... separating men from boys, getting rid of the guys that can't handle the pressure etc etc.
I suppose there is something in upping the intensity of training for International given that we all want it to be a step UP in everything (force and beauty) to what it is at Club level, which is tough enough now in its own right anyway.
But there does need to be a balance between preparing your players to be the baddest lot on the street, and potentially overdoing it and making them the most fragile bunch on the street, having played all their toughest rugby on the training field or having been over tested in the gym.

[Cumbrian]

Kyle Sinckler has left the Portugal training camp due to a calf strain.   The number of injuries is getting very concerning and it is perhaps somewhat of a blessing that the Anglo-Welsh Cup is taking place over the next couple of weeks (how many times do you hear that?!).  You would hope that the 6N squad lads will be worked a little easier over the next fortnight.

It's a two edged sword.... this concept by some coaches that there is never a tough enough pre-tournament training schedule.... separating men from boys, getting rid of the guys that can't handle the pressure etc etc.
I suppose there is something in upping the intensity of training for International given that we all want it to be a step UP in everything (force and beauty) to what it is at Club level, which is tough enough now in its own right anyway.
But there does need to be a balance between preparing your players to be the baddest lot on the street, and potentially overdoing it and making them the most fragile bunch on the street, having played all their toughest rugby on the training field or having been over tested in the gym.

True enough, it wouldn't be good for the team to go into a game undercooked. I suppose from that point of view it is better for England to be playing Italy first up because there is (without trying to be disrespectful) more margin for error.

[Scottrf]

Honestly I don't think our injuries are that bad compared to Wales or Scotland for example.

[Sgt_Pooly]

There's some big losses but most can covered quite well. Sinckler is obviously, quality but Williams isn't a huge drop off imo.

[LondonTiger]

Due to injuries and suspensions:

LH - missing 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th choices
TH - Missing 2nd or 3rd choice
Second row - Missing 6th, 7th choice
Flankers - missing a couple of contenders, but no-one guaranteed to start
No 8 - Missing 1st and second choice
Half backs - all fit
Centres - Arguably all fit
Back 3 - missing Daly


So really not too bad at all (depending on who I have forgotten). Issues around bench at LH and makeup of teh back row (largely due to missing Billy and Hughes).

[BamBam]

You know what we haven't had in a while? A debate on the merits of the starting and substitute hookers, I miss those days

[Rugby Fan]

Funnily enough, Lewis Moody is on the Flats and Shanks podcast praising Robshaw.

He admits that, when he played against Robshaw, he thought he'd just be a good solid club player. However, he admires the way he took his chance and has met the challenge of Test rugby.

He actually says "I have no problem comparing him with Hilly, in the sense he is just a workhorse, and you need someone like that".

I don't think you'll often (ever?) pick out Robshaw as the man who wins you a match with some eye-catching play, but he may well stop his team from losing it.

[Sorry, I've just seen Pooly suggest we leave this topic]

[Geordie]

Bloody hell...bobby Vickers will be getting a call up soon the rate the LHs are going.

Seriously though, Hepburn is a good player so we should be ok with him and Mako.
Boyce im not up to speed with ...is he good now..or a prospect.

[Scottrf]

Bloody hell...bobby Vickers will be getting a call up soon the rate the LHs are going.

Seriously though, Hepburn is a good player so we should be ok with him and Mako.
Boyce im not up to speed with ...is he good now..or a prospect.

Prospect, only had a few starts. But very highly rated.

[lostinwales]

Do we know how long Sinckler is out for?

[beshocked]

Talking about first names on team sheet and all that - how would you rate England players?

Who are you most worried about losing to injury of the current fit players and whose least?

No prizes for guessing which 2 players would be bottom of my list. I think it would be a blessing in disguise actually.


Obviously we know who Jones' first name on the list is but what about you?

[Poorfour]

Sinckler failed a late fitness test for Quins on Sunday with what was reported as a hamstring issue. What I had seen was that he turned up to training camp but the hamstring hadn't cleared up enough for him to train so he was sent back to Quins to rehab.

Given he was close to playing on Sunday, he could be back any time - but if it's a hamstring it's also one of those things that could be on the verge of clearing up for weeks... like Richard Hill's one at the RWC

;-)

[No 7&1/2]

We're scraping the bare bones of loosehead. That's the place which will hit hard if we lose someone. Inside centre if Farrell goes down. Te'o not back fit slade out. Leaves lozowski, is francis injured?

[Scottrf]

We're scraping the bare bones of loosehead. That's the place which will hit hard if we lose someone. Inside centre if Farrell goes down. Te'o not back fit slade out. Leaves lozowski, is francis injured?

Yeah he's been dealing with concussion.

[Poorfour]

The looseheads only need to hold out for two games til we get Marler back; Lozowski can cover Farrell at IC pretty well, I think.

[beshocked]

Agree that Mako get injured would leave us vulnerable.

An injury to Hartley would actually benefit England. Injury to George or LCD would be big blows though I don't think LCD is in the squad.

Injury to Cole would leave us vulnerable.

Any injury to Itoje,Lawes,Launchbury though annoying can be covered.

If Robshaw goes down Lawes or Itoje could cover at 6.

Simmonds injury would leave us even more vulnerable at 8.

Whilst injury to Youngs or Care wouldn't be ideal, would create an opportunity for a 3rd 9.

Injury to Ford wouldn't be good but there's cover. Ditto Farrell.

Not sure who goes to outside centre if Joseph is out so that could be costly.

On the wing - I don't think an injury is a big deal. Sufficient cover.

Injury to Brown could potentially benefit England.


In order I'd say worst for England -

1)Mako
2)Cole
3)Joseph
4)Simmonds
5)Ford or Farrell

[Scottrf]

Injury to Brown could potentially benefit England.

You've got your wish. Blurred vision. Pleased?

Also Robshaw doubtful for opener.

Sinckler out for the whole tournament.

[Rugby Fan]

Twitter rumblings that Robshaw & Brown are doubts for Italy, while Slade is out for three weeks.

https://twitter.com/DuncanBech/status/956132757947801600

[Geordie]

Agree that Mako get injured would leave us vulnerable.

Not sure who goes to outside centre if Joseph is out so that could be costly.

Nowell could even cover 13 v Italy...no big issues at 13 at all.

Can I just say, you come across as actually willing players to get injured, and I don't like the sound of that. regardless what you think of a player you shouldn't want them to be injured!

[lostinwales]

The problem at wing is backup. If Brown is out we either switch Watson to 15 with Solomona (Earle?) in at wing or its time for prince Harry to step on up.

Solomona would certainly help to make the game a lot more exciting, assuming we ever manage to get the ball out to him. I just dearly hope his defense has improved.

If Robshaw is out the big question is what state Underhill is in. No Underhill and we are pretty much guaranteed a Lawes/Itoje 5/6 combo with Simmonds and either Mercer or Graham.

Real shame about Sinckler. A great deal of potential but he's going to get a Simpson-Daniel like reputation for getting injured at exactly the wrong moment at this rate.

[lostinwales]

Agree that Mako get injured would leave us vulnerable.

Not sure who goes to outside centre if Joseph is out so that could be costly.

Nowell could even cover 13 v Italy...no big issues at 13 at all.

Can I just say, you come across as actually willing players to get injured, and I don't like the sound of that. regardless what you think of a player you shouldn't want them to be injured!

Is Nowell going to be fit?

As for the BS comment - that is how it comes across.

[Scottrf]

Mallinder was hooked at half time for Saints. We don't do that. I don't know how he can be considered for England.

[Geordie]

The problem at wing is backup. If Brown is out we either switch Watson to 15 with Solomona (Earle?) in at wing or its time for prince Harry to step on up.

Solomona would certainly help to make the game a lot more exciting, assuming we ever manage to get the ball out to him. I just dearly hope his defense has improved.

If Robshaw is out the big question is what state Underhill is in. No Underhill and we are pretty much guaranteed a Lawes/Itoje 5/6 combo with Simmonds and either Mercer or Graham.

Real shame about Sinckler. A great deal of potential but he's going to get a Simpson-Daniel like reputation for getting injured at exactly the wrong moment at this rate.

have no worries about Graham. He's a tough physical player who is very active to go with it. We will not be weakened by having him at 7 or 6

[Geordie]

Agree that Mako get injured would leave us vulnerable.

Not sure who goes to outside centre if Joseph is out so that could be costly.

Nowell could even cover 13 v Italy...no big issues at 13 at all.

Can I just say, you come across as actually willing players to get injured, and I don't like the sound of that. regardless what you think of a player you shouldn't want them to be injured!

Is Nowell going to be fit?

As for the BS comment - that is how it comes across.

Ah is he injured aswell?

[Geordie]

So is this slowly becoming Italy's best chance of recording a first victory over us!!

[Scottrf]

So is this slowly becoming Italy's best chance of recording a first victory over us!!

I think we could lose our whole first 15 and win.

[lostinwales]

So is this slowly becoming Italy's best chance of recording a first victory over us!!

I think we could lose our whole first 15 and win.

Yep. The win might get uglier and uglier - and Italy will surely have their moments but this fixture must be as close to a sure thing as you can get.

Graham does sound like an ideal stopgap with the potential for more. Right now I am not sure about playing him in Scotland if we still need him by then

[eirebilly]

I am sure England will win but the loss of so many important players could result in England possibly not getting as many points against Italy as expected. This could be costly considering how evenly matched the comp may be.

[lostinwales]

I am sure England will win but the loss of so many important players could result in England possibly not getting as many points against Italy as expected. This could be costly considering how evenly matched the comp may be.

Alternatively we do play Solomona who proceeds to score 4 tries meaning he is proclaimed as the new messiah and we can't drop him for the rest of the tournament.

Unfortunately he plays badly in the other games and concedes several tries on his wing....

[Cumbrian]

Anybody starting to panic yet?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/42804034

[Sgt_Pooly]

Anybody starting to panic yet?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/42804034

I don't think is a huge drama against Italy.

[LondonTiger]

Anybody starting to panic yet?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/42804034

Not yet, though this sobers me slightly:

Eddies First Choice Match Day 23:

Brown
Watson
Te'o
Farrell
Daly
Ford
Youngs
Mako
Hartley
Cole
Kruis
Itoje
Robshaw
Underhill
Billy

George
Marler
Sinckler
Lawes
Hughes
Care
Francis
Nowell

[No 7&1/2]

If Launchbury isn't higher up that 4th choice now I'll despair as much as beshocked would when he discovers dunn is now 2nd choice to hartley. Several motm s last season. Started on fire for Wasps. The most in form lock.

[LondonTiger]

If Launchbury isn't higher up that 4th choice now I'll despair as much as beshocked would when he discovers dunn is now 2nd choice to hartley.  Several motm s last season. Started on fire for Wasps. The most in form lock.

We will not know where he ranks yet, as probably all 4 will be in the Italy 23

[eirebilly]

If Launchbury isn't higher up that 4th choice now I'll despair as much as beshocked would when he discovers dunn is now 2nd choice to hartley.  Several motm s last season. Started on fire for Wasps. The most in form lock.

I never get why Launchbury is not rated so highly by the England selectors, for me he is an excellent player and would be one of my first names on the team sheet.

[Scottrf]

If Launchbury isn't higher up that 4th choice now I'll despair as much as beshocked would when he discovers dunn is now 2nd choice to hartley.  Several motm s last season. Started on fire for Wasps. The most in form lock.

I never get why Launchbury is not rated so highly by the England selectors, for me he is an excellent player and would be one of my first names on the team sheet.

Because we have the best lock depth in the world. He also has 47 caps, more than Kruis despite being younger. I wouldn't say 47 caps at 26 is being overlooked.

[LondonTiger]

If Launchbury isn't higher up that 4th choice now I'll despair as much as beshocked would when he discovers dunn is now 2nd choice to hartley.  Several motm s last season. Started on fire for Wasps. The most in form lock.

I never get why Launchbury is not rated so highly by the England selectors, for me he is an excellent player and would be one of my first names on the team sheet.

To be fair 3 England locks were selected ahead of him for the Lions too.

Mind he will notch up hi 50th cap this spring, probably

[Sgt_Pooly]

I think Launchbury is rated highly and rightly so, he's a class act. With 4 very good locks, if you're slightly off your game, you miss out.....see Kruis in the AI.

[cascough]

Looking at the number of times players have been named in matchday squads under Eddie Jones...

LH
Mako 17
Marler 16
Mullan 8
Genge 5

HK
Hartley 23
George 17
Cowan-Dickie 3
Singleton 2
Taylor 1

TH
Cole 21
Sinckler 9
Hill 7
Williams 5
Collier 2
Brookes 2

LK
Launchbury 20
Lawes 19
Itoje 14
Kruis 11
Ewels 6
Isiekwe 3
Attwood 2

FL
Robshaw 16
Haskell 13
Clifford 10
Wood 8
Harrison 6
Underhill 3
Wilson 2
Curry 1
Armand 1
Kvesic 1

8
Billy 13
Hughes 12
Simmonds 3

SH
Care 23
Youngs 21
Maunder 2

FH
Ford 23

MF
Joseph 19
Farrell 18
Slade 9
Te'o 9
Lozowski 4
Francis 3
Devoto 2
Tuilagi 2
Burrell 2

WG
Daly 17
Nowell 13
Watson 13
May 10
Yarde 6
Roko 4
Solomona 2

FB
Brown 21
Goode 4

Looking purely at the leaders in each position, you've currently got 12 names there for a first team. So we are missing 3. If Robshaw and Brown do drop out, we'd be down to 10. That's still 2/3 of Eddie Jones most selected team that will line up against Italy, the worst team in the 6N. If Robshaw and Brown do make it, then we are back up to 4/5 or 80% of his most selected team available. The other curveball is that arguably Underhill is now first choice 7, and he is available, so it's even less of a problem. If Robshaw drops out, we go with Itoje on the flank, which was good enough to be part of a winning 6N team last time around. You could even make a case for saying that Watson and Nowell (the pair Jones' started with) would be above Daly we're it not for both of them missing England games through Injury. Then we'd be up to a staggering 13/15 of the first team available. Then don't forget that as well as our easiest game being first, Marler, Slade, Te'o, and Haskell are all due back in the 6N.

There's speculation in there of course, but the point is if you look at the numbers, we are miles from scraping the barrel.

[eirebilly]

If Launchbury isn't higher up that 4th choice now I'll despair as much as beshocked would when he discovers dunn is now 2nd choice to hartley.  Several motm s last season. Started on fire for Wasps. The most in form lock.

I never get why Launchbury is not rated so highly by the England selectors, for me he is an excellent player and would be one of my first names on the team sheet.

Because we have the best lock depth in the world. He also has 47 caps, more than Kruis despite being younger. I wouldn't say 47 caps at 26 is being overlooked.

47 caps? I stand corrected then, it really does not seem like he has had that many at all. Were many of these as a replacement?

[lostinwales]

Anybody starting to panic yet?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/42804034

Not yet, though this sobers me slightly:

Eddies First Choice Match Day 23:

Brown
Watson
Te'o
Farrell
Daly
Ford
Youngs
Mako
Hartley
Cole
Kruis
Itoje
Robshaw
Underhill
Billy

George
Marler
Sinckler
Lawes
Hughes
Care
Francis
Nowell

Joseph has been pretty consistently chosen as 1st choice 13, although he is under threat from Slade, and both would be under threat if a certain player gets over his injury problems and finally gets back to punching through defenses instead of punching police officers. Te'o currently first choice on the subs bench though.

[Geordie]

1 Mako
2 Hartley
3 Cole
4 Launchbury
5 Itoje
6 Lawes
7 Underhill / Graham
8 Simmonds

9 Youngs
10 Ford
11 May
12 Farrell
13 Joseph
14 Nowell 1st choice, or whoever is fit after that.
15 Watson

No probs

[Sponsored content]