England Six Nations Thread

[Cumbrian]

First topic message reminder :

Squad (From RFU Website):

Backs

Full backs
Mike Brown (Harlequins)
Nathan Earle (Saracens) *
Harry Mallinder (Northampton Saints) *
Jonny May (Leicester Tigers)
Denny Solomona (Sale Sharks)
Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby)

Inside backs
Danny Care (Harlequins)
Owen Farrell (Saracens)
George Ford (Leicester Tigers)
Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby)
Alex Lozowski (Saracens)
Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs)
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs)
Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors)
Marcus Smith (Harlequins) * **
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

Forwards

Back five
Gary Graham (Newcastle Falcons) *
Nick Isiekwe (Saracens)
Maro Itoje (Saracens)
George Kruis (Saracens)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints)
Joe Launchbury (Wasps)
Zach Mercer (Bath Rugby) *
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)
Sam Simmonds (Exeter Chiefs)
Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby)

Front row
Lewis Boyce (Harlequins) *
Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers)
Tom Dunn (Bath Rugby) *
Jamie George (Saracens)
Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints)
Alec Hepburn (Exeter Chiefs) *
Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins)
Mako Vunipola (Saracens)
Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs)

Players unavailable
Tom Curry (Sale Sharks)
Elliot Daly (Wasps)
Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby)
Piers Francis (Northampton Saints)
Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers)
James Haskell (Wasps)
Nathan Hughes (Wasps)
Joe Marler (Harlequins)
Matt Mullan (Wasps)
Beno Obano (Bath Rugby)
Semesa Rokoduguni (Bath Rugby)
Will Spencer (Worcester Warriors)
Billy Vunipola (Saracens)

Uncapped *
Apprentice player **

Fixtures:

*All kick-off times in GMT.


Italy v England
Stadio Olimpico, Rome
Sunday 4th February 2018
Kick Off: 3:00pm

England v Wales
Twickenham Stadium, London
Saturday 10th February 2018
Kick Off: 4:45pm

Scotland v England
BT Murrayfield Stadium, Edinburgh
Saturday 24th February 2018
Kick Off: 4:45pm

France v England
Stade de France, Paris
Saturday 10th March 2018
Kick Off: 4:45pm

England v Ireland
Twickenham Stadium, London
Saturday 17th March 2018
Kick Off: 2:45pm

Officialdom:

Italy v England

Referee: Mathieu Raynal (France)
Assistant 1: Jérôme Garcès (France)
Assistant 2: Nic Berry (Australia)
TMO: Glenn Newman (New Zealand)

England v Wales

Referee: Jérôme Garcès (France)
Assistant 1: Mathieu Reynal (France)
Assistant 2: Nic Berry (Australia)
TMO: Glenn Newman (New Zealand)

Scotland v England

Referee: Nigel Owens (Wales)
Assistant 1: Jérôme Garcès (France)
Assistant 2: Andrew Brace (Ireland)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)

France v England

Referee: Jaco Peyper (South Africa)
Assistant 1: Angus Gardner (Australia)
Assistant 2: Marius van der Westhuizen (South Africa)
TMO: Ben Skeen (New Zealand)

England v Ireland

Referee: Angus Gardner (Australia)
Assistant 1: Jaco Peyper (South Africa)
Assistant 2: Marius van der Westhuizen (South Africa)
TMO: Ben Skeen (New Zealand)

[Poorfour]

Ok genuine question...

Rugby League, I know its a swear word. But its a hugely physical tough game. I'm pretty sure they don't have this many injuries or do they?  Do they play less games...or is it just NOT AS INTENSE as union?

I think it's something to do with the number and type of impacts. League has tackles that make me wince as a union fan, but they're relatively infrequent. Most of the time the aim is just to stop forward progress and the tackles are more of a sort of manly hug. Plus it's generally a 1 on 1 or 1 on 2 tackle - you don't have the ruck impacts, kick chases and or goal line charges we see in union.

[Scottrf]

I don't see any correlation between those that have played a lot of rugby here and injury though.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.reddit.com/r/rugbyunion/comments/7rq0tt/workload_this_season_for_lions_players/

I don't think it's as simple as workload.

[Geordie]

Ok genuine question...

Rugby League, I know its a swear word. But its a hugely physical tough game. I'm pretty sure they don't have this many injuries or do they?  Do they play less games...or is it just NOT AS INTENSE as union?

I think it's something to do with the number and type of impacts. League has tackles that make me wince as a union fan, but they're relatively infrequent. Most of the time the aim is just to stop forward progress and the tackles are more of a sort of manly hug. Plus it's generally a 1 on 1 or 1 on 2 tackle - you don't have the ruck impacts, kick chases and or goal line charges we see in union.

Yeah i think your right PF, theres lots of different aspects to Union.

I just blanked out that post.

[lostinwales]

As to whether England are actually the best team in the world, well we don't know, do we? They haven't beaten the All Blacks and the All Blacks haven't beaten England. They've both lost to Ireland, and the All Blacks have also lost to Australia and the Lions. England have looked vulnerable, but so have every other team, including the All Blacks.

in reality with the players available to us we're probably ranked 4th or 5th.

Eddie can have all the player stats and data in the world. The fact is if the players are broke whats the point?

Rugby union has real player welfare issues and to be honest you like the majority of fans and those in the game are in denial as to the scale of the issue.

How many players are now unavailable for selection?

No way 4th or 5th. Even if you are worried about the individual players the team is very strong and very hard to beat. We have had tight games but one loss in a couple of years is a bit special.

There is of course the other factor at play. South Africa and Australia are both in a bad place,  win over the AB's or no. Ireland are right up there but nobody else is - and we have been a lot more consistent than Ireland hence us being 2nd in the ratings by a margin.

[lostinwales]

Great read poorfour

Thanks. I was worried it had gotten too long, but I thought the observation was worth making.

Agree....but a complete waste of time and effort.

That depends. I suspect it will be water off a duck's back to its most direct audience, but I learned quite a bit from writing it and at least a couple of other posters seem to have enjoyed it. So, not a *complete* waste...

I enjoyed it very much, but then I agree with everything you wrote

[Barney McGrew did it]

In Eddie we trust because he knows best is probably right, but doesn’t make a great basis for a rugby forum. The questioning of Hartley’s place (and even Brown’s & Robshaw’s) is something I disagree with (particularly Robshaw’s), but is hardly outlandish or restricted to an odd minority. BS’s opinions are his own of course, but raise interesting questions, especially about the balance of leadership to form, starter vs impact (eg. Hartley), and planning for the next RWC & beyond(Robshaw & Brown..). EJ seems to get most things right (see his England record) although when Lancaster played around with lock & 6 (in Lawes) most ridiculed him. So Eddie’s still got some thinking to do - for example does he just get his best players on the field, does he look for the best in each position, or does he look for balanced combinations.

Everyone just agreeing with Eddie would get boring.

[SecretFly]

Barney is right.......................

.......oops!

[yappysnap]

Ok genuine question...

Rugby League, I know its a swear word. But its a hugely physical tough game. I'm pretty sure they don't have this many injuries or do they?  Do they play less games...or is it just NOT AS INTENSE as union?

I think it's something to do with the number and type of impacts. League has tackles that make me wince as a union fan, but they're relatively infrequent. Most of the time the aim is just to stop forward progress and the tackles are more of a sort of manly hug. Plus it's generally a 1 on 1 or 1 on 2 tackle - you don't have the ruck impacts, kick chases and or goal line charges we see in union.

Yeah i think your right PF, theres lots of different aspects to Union.

I just blanked out that post.

I think you're right there. From personal experience and watching, most injuries seem to occur in or around rucks, getting hit at angles when you're trapped or when you don't expect it. Scrums as well can cause a few.

League is more one on one tackles, plus generally, the players are fitter.

[yappysnap]

Also I can see Brown being out for a while, he seem to have a lot of concussion issues recently and double vision from a collision a week ago means he'll need to go through the protocles

[Poorfour]

In Eddie we trust because he knows best is probably right, but doesn’t make a great basis for a rugby forum. The questioning of Hartley’s place (and even Brown’s & Robshaw’s) is something I disagree with (particularly Robshaw’s), but is hardly outlandish or restricted to an odd minority. BS’s opinions are his own of course, but raise interesting questions, especially about the balance of leadership to form, starter vs impact (eg. Hartley), and planning for the next RWC & beyond(Robshaw & Brown..). EJ seems to get most things right (see his England record) although when Lancaster played around with lock & 6 (in Lawes) most ridiculed him. So Eddie’s still got some thinking to do -  for example does he just get his best players on the field, does he look for the best in each position, or does he look for balanced combinations.

Everyone just agreeing with Eddie would get boring.

I agree. He asks good questions and prompts me to think about why I don't agree with him. I just wish he'd actually engage in the debate. It's positively pythonesque:

- This isn't an argument, it's just contradiction
- Oh no it isn't

[SecretFly]

Also I can see Brown being out for a while, he seem to have a lot of concussion issues recently and double vision from a collision a week ago means he'll need to go through the protocles

Didn't know that. Didn't he have a major issue with concussion a few years back? You'd like to think that these individual episodes resolve themselves individually rather than maybe accumulating and influencing the frequency of later episodes. I didn't know that Brown was back in that territory. These players that seem to get more than their share (Sexton is another one) they need careful attention.

[ChequeredJersey]

1) Poorfour, you are one of my favourite posters on the internet
2) Is Robshaw looking a doubt? That's not great news, Brown is one too. Is there an argument for resting them to be properly fit for Wales and putting out a side like this?

15- Earl (I think I'd rather start him at 15 and keep Watson on the wing, unless Nowell is fit)
14- May
13- Joseph
12- Farrell
11- Watson (11 and 14 may be the wrong way round, I don't really get the nuances of wing play)
10- Ford
9- Youngs
8- Simmonds
7- Underhill if fit or else Graham
6- Itoje (not ideal at all, but I'd rather have the experience of a settled England starter who has played 6 for England even if not his best games than yet more new players in an already green backrow)
5- Lawes
4- Launch
3- Cole (I'd like to start someone else but Cole is the starter and Williams the finisher)
2- Hartley
1- Mako

Hepburn, George, Williams, Kruis, Mercer, Care, Teo, Lozowski

[Poorfour]

Also I can see Brown being out for a while, he seem to have a lot of concussion issues recently and double vision from a collision a week ago means he'll need to go through the protocles

Didn't know that.  Didn't he have a major issue with concussion a few years back?  You'd like to think that these individual episodes resolve themselves individually rather than maybe accumulating and influencing the frequency of later episodes.  I didn't know that Brown was back in that territory.  These players that seem to get more than their share (Sexton is another one) they need careful attention.

I don't think that's right, or at least not an accurate characterisation. Brown has a single bad concussion two years ago that took some time to clear up. He then had a knock in the autumn 2017 Argentina game, missed Australia on the return-to-play protocol and returned for Samoa. His current problem has been reported as "blurred vision" or "double vision" rather than concussion - nevertheless Eddie thinks he's more likely than Robshaw to be ready for Italy (and he thinks Robshaw will be ready, though it's "touch and go").

[ChequeredJersey]

For a rugby player, double vision sounds like a concussion red flag, given that those are common symptoms of concussion, he seemed to develop the symptoms during or peri a rugby match and concussion is the most likely traumatic cause of either symptom

[SecretFly]

Also I can see Brown being out for a while, he seem to have a lot of concussion issues recently and double vision from a collision a week ago means he'll need to go through the protocles

Didn't know that.  Didn't he have a major issue with concussion a few years back?  You'd like to think that these individual episodes resolve themselves individually rather than maybe accumulating and influencing the frequency of later episodes.  I didn't know that Brown was back in that territory.  These players that seem to get more than their share (Sexton is another one) they need careful attention.

I don't think that's right, or at least not an accurate characterisation. Brown has a single bad concussion two years ago that took some time to clear up. He then had a knock in the autumn 2017 Argentina game, missed Australia on the return-to-play protocol and returned for Samoa. His current problem has been reported as "blurred vision" or "double vision" rather than concussion - nevertheless Eddie thinks he's more likely than Robshaw to be ready for Italy (and he thinks Robshaw will be ready, though it's "touch and go").

More a question than a declaration on my part. But if I were to make a declaration I'd say it's my opinion that the cumulative effects of single episode concussions are perhaps a dangerous and to date scantly debated topic when considering the Long Term health of these still young players. They'll all hopefully get old. Hopefully too these situations don't come back to haunt them. I just think the research and theories about concussion in sport is perhaps just in its infancy.

[Poorfour]

More a question than a declaration on my part.  But if I were to make a declaration I'd say it's my opinion that the cumulative effects of single episode concussions are perhaps a dangerous and to date scantly debated topic when considering the Long Term health of these still young players.  They'll all hopefully get old.  Hopefully too these situations don't come back to haunt them.  I just think the research and theories about concussion in sport is perhaps just in its infancy.

You have a point there. But Brown is the litmus test of the current concussion protocols: he was one of the first well-known players to take an extended break to recover from concussion, so I would be very surprised if he's not following medical advice to the letter. We don't yet know if that advice is enough - but the protocols are much better than they were and Brown has been handled well by club and country. I worry about him much less than I do about George North, for instance, who I think has been handled appallingly.

The one thing we do know is that the concussion issues in the NFL were associated with players who had no real concussion protocol, impacts that are far greater than in rugby (despite the helmets) and a league that covered up the long term effects. Rugby could almost certainly have done better but I haven't seen anything suggesting there are widespread long term effects like the NFL. Rugby could still do better, though. For instance by fast-tracking trials of the N-Pro headguard (Wired on the N-Pro) and making it mandatory if it is shown to work, and there is also an active discussion on whether tackling should be limited to waist height (which I would support, at least as a trial).

[lostinwales]

The helmets have done very little to protect against concussion. In fact in lulling players into a false sense of security (plus the tackling with the head thing which just seems so stupid) they may well have contributed to the problems.

[yappysnap]

He spent a fair bit of time out from the last incidents, more then most players usually would, which made me that his concussions were worse then a lot of the ones that seem to occur. He seems to have had a relatively bad concussion yearly for the last three years, I don't know if it had a knock on effect but he won't be rushed back.

[Geordie]

You see when we look at Robshaw and Brown, this is where I do question Eddie slightly.

They're both not in great shape. Now whilst Eddie wants to keep consistency of selection and play his strongest team (which I agree with) ...this is Italy...and the players health to think of.  

Why rush a player back when they're not ready, and doing so potentially make things worse and risk their availability for the rest of the tournament?

Robshaw is a key player but for this game i'm sure Lawes or Itoje can cover suitably. Likewise, Gary Graham is newbie, but has starred this season against premiership clubs that are stronger than Italy! Or make an injury replacement for Robshaw and bring in Mark Wilson. It just doesn't make sense.

Likewise at FB...surely we can switch the back 3 around slightly. Watson to 15, and bring in any one of a number of good wingers we have.

PLus Eddie can have a good look at Watson at 15.

I don't get the point in risking players...especially when Italy is the opposition.

[eirebilly]

100% agree Geordie but I do believe there is a fear of naming 'supposedly' weakened teams against Italy. As if it is being downright disrespectful to Italy.

[Geordie]

You have to respect Italy, but not fear them Eirebilly.

The team will probably have 11ish of Eddies starting 1st XV, so I really think in this situation you can afford to make a few changes, specifically when we know those replacements, whilst inexperienced are good players and proven in the premiership and Europe.

[eirebilly]

Not fear Italy Geordie, a fear of naming weakened teams.

If players are not fully fit then there is absolutely zero to gain by playing them against Italy, especially when the back ups are also more than capable to destroy Italy.

[Geordie]

Completely agree!

[TightHEAD]

vs Italy England could play all Backs and rest the Forwards.

[Poorfour]

The helmets have done very little to protect against concussion. In fact in lulling players into a false sense of security (plus the tackling with the head thing which just seems so stupid) they may well have contributed to the problems.

Most helmets don't. The N-Pro does, but ironically is banned under current World Rugby guidelines because it reduces impacts by too much. The original rule was to prevent people using hard helmets, but the N-PRO is a soft headguard with a structure that reduces the force of impact to less than half the previous limit.

It's not been tested by World Rugby, but it needs to be and soon

[beshocked]

thomh someone has to go on the bench. Would I be upset if Launchbury started? No definitely not.

Lock is a position where any combo is good. No, Launchbury is not my 4th choice. At lock, England rotate more so 1st,2nd,3rd choice isn't really a thing.

Poorfour

True but we can see the data like missed tackles.

The evidence is his missed tackle count. You can forgive a player for missing 1 or 2 - especially if it doesn't result in a try but when someone is statistically one of the worst... well....

We can see stats about certain things.


To be fair I agree with most of the rest. You make some very good points.

I think it's very harsh of Sgt Pooly to call it a waste of time and effort.


It still doesn't change that perhaps combinations can improve with a change in personnel. Perhaps not.

You might well be right - perhaps this is indeed the best combination England can put out - and yes you are right - Jones has access to data we don't but my next question to you would be -

What would it take for you to want a change? What would it take for Jones to make a change?

That's of course if you believe it's necessary.

Also on the backrow situation if Lawes or Itoje has a stormer vs Italy (with Robshaw seemingly unfit) - what would you do?

Even now there seems to be fitness doubts over both....


For me if Itoje and Lawes are struggling for fitness, I'd drop one to the bench.


In any case I'd certainly want England to go into good shape for Wales.

[Poorfour]

He spent a fair bit of time out from the last incidents, more then most players usually would, which made me that his concussions were worse then a lot of the ones that seem to occur. He seems to have had a relatively bad concussion yearly for the last three years, I don't know if it had a knock on effect but he won't be rushed back.

Have you got a link for that? He spent a long time out after the first concussion, but the nature of concussion is that each case is individual. Since then all I could find was consistent with him following a normal return to play protocol.

[BamBam]

Loads of sensible stuff

Great post,

[cascough]

In Eddie we trust because he knows best is probably right, but doesn’t make a great basis for a rugby forum. The questioning of Hartley’s place (and even Brown’s & Robshaw’s) is something I disagree with (particularly Robshaw’s), but is hardly outlandish or restricted to an odd minority. BS’s opinions are his own of course, but raise interesting questions, especially about the balance of leadership to form, starter vs impact (eg. Hartley), and planning for the next RWC & beyond(Robshaw & Brown..). EJ seems to get most things right (see his England record) although when Lancaster played around with lock & 6 (in Lawes) most ridiculed him. So Eddie’s still got some thinking to do -  for example does he just get his best players on the field, does he look for the best in each position, or does he look for balanced combinations.

Everyone just agreeing with Eddie would get boring.

To be fair, I don't think this is people's issue.

For example, I see this type of thing a lot.

"Drop Brown, he's rubbish he can't pass"

"Could be tactical, look at what he does well and the positive impact it has"

"Yeah but, drop Brown, he's rubbish, he can't pass"

"I'm sure if Eddie Jones thought Brown was a weakness, he'd have replaced him. What do you think Jones might see in him?"

"Dunno. Drop Brown, he's rubbish he can't pass"

One of those has an agenda that they refuse to engage in debate on, despite not presenting (when asked) a terribly convincing argument for that agenda. The other reasons far beyond simply saying "well if it's good enough for Eddie Jones" and could be easily disagreed with just by saying something like "It's all well and good Jones' prizing Mike Brown's defence and aggression, but I just think by not picking a full back with better distribution skills, we're not unlocking the potential of what is a very fast set of wingers".

I certainly find the former much more dull.

[Geordie]

Yes but Cascough,

Hes rubbish and cant pass!

[cascough]

Yes but Cascough,

Hes rubbish and cant pass!

[Poorfour]

Depending on the defensive system, missed tackles mean a lot less to coaches than they do to fans and pundits. In several systems (including Andy Farrell's, which was nicked from Custard as I recall), what's measured is whether the team brings down the player.

A "missed tackle" on Opta, but one which still slows the attacker down enough that the second tackler can stop him, is acceptable to teams playing that system.

Also, the England system is different from club systems, and we don't have any view of who is performing well under the England one right now.

Personally, I try to take a slightly detached view of what coaches do. I accept that they have better information than me, and I try to understand why they make the choices they make. I don't always agree, but by understanding I find I can accept what they are doing more often and predict what might happen next. I am hopeless at spotting who Eddie might call up next (but so is everyone else), but so far I have been better than average at guessing what he's going to do once he's got them.

I try not to rail too much against what they are doing, because I know that my voice doesn't change anything.

[Poorfour]

On the 6 Vs Italy, I'd be fine with Lawtoje for that, but it would not change my concern that it would be found out by a team with a better back row of their own.

I've not seen anything to suggest that converted locks are the right answer against teams with top quality flankers. However, of they play well against Italy, I wouldn't be averse to seeing them play there against France. If that goes well, Wales...

And so on. But it would take a consistently strong tournament to convince me that it's the right answer versus Ireland and possibly even Scotland.

[Geordie]

Have no fear Poorfour,

Gary Graham, will smash and pirouette through the opposition

[TightHEAD]

Its not that he can't pass, he just doesn't want to pass!

and he has been rubbish for the last two seasons.

[Geordie]

I'm sure if Eddie Jones thought Brown was a weakness, he'd have replaced him

[TightHEAD]

I'm sure if Eddie Jones thought Brown was a weakness, he'd have replaced him

Did you see Eddies eye the last time he tried to drop Brown?

[Geordie]

Exactly...

[beshocked]

Poorfour I understand players miss tackles but the missing tackles isn't isolated to just Eddie Jones' defensive system. When player X misses 5 in one game, is it just a defensive system at fault?

True but bear in mind the backrows, England played in last year's 6 nations were mostly patchwork. Clifford thrown in and Itoje starting at 6. That's what Robshaw has brought to the backrow - a settled player in the backrow.

Other sides seem have it sorted out in the backrow, England haven't.

Well I personally think Brown's England performances have dipped in quality which is why his place is in question. A 5 or 6 performance isn't enough IMO.

He's not making the same impact he was. Now even if he's still able to not get turned over he's not offering the same value he was.

When you see forwards passing the ball with more thought and skill than Brown it's worrying.

In regards to Brown, it could be as simple as Jones not believing Watson will do better.

Injuries to the squad have meant it's harder to drop him.

[No 7&1/2]

What are your hopes and expectations this 6Ns beshocked?

[No 7&1/2]

Apparently the players have had no rugby until today to give them a little respite. Jones also.bigging up looking for commitment and hunger from them. Must be breath of fresh air having guys like mercer unn etc in there as well, hopefully fully committed putting pressure on for a place.

[SecretFly]

On a purely neutral front...................... I think it's ripe for other coaches now to turn the juice onto Eddie and play him at his own game.

If I were another coach now and I was asked about England I'd say that Eddie seems to be talking more than even usual this time round..... he seems to be everywhere in voice and in print..... and I'd put it that he sounds less certain and more nervous than of old as if trying to talk himself into a comfort zone.

I'd say that and play with it...................... and wait for the Eddie rebuff storm to come back at me.  But I think Eddie is in a ripe mood to be riled himself and to maybe let him know that there is less assurance in his media over-exposure these days.

[cascough]

Its not that he can't pass, he just doesn't want to pass!

and he has been rubbish for the last two seasons.

Sincerely hope this is tongue in cheek.

[Poorfour]

I think Eddie's preferred back row is pretty settled if only he could keep all the players fit. Robshaw, Underhill, Billy. It's less clear who the sub is - possibly he's happy to have a second lock on the bench.

As for Brown, he could pick Watson, or Nowell, or Daly, or Pennell, or even Goode. But he hasn't. I would have been very happy to see Watson given more time in the shirt, but it hasn't.

Brown doesn't make the breaks he used to, but he ties up defenders, is secure at the back, good at retaining possession and does pass when there's a genuine chance of a break. What he doesn't do is give hail Mary or hospital passes to his wingers.

It's percentage rugby, and it's almost certainly what he's been told to do by Eddie. It may frustrate us, but it's clear from the language Eddie has used this week that he intends to play Brown if he's fit. The only really relevant question is what he values that makes him so consistent in his selection.

I have suggested some ideas. It's a bit daft to suggest, though, that Eddie is hanging onto a player who is only giving him what he regards as a 5 or 6 /10 performance, especially when there are plenty of other options available.

[TightHEAD]

Its not that he can't pass, he just doesn't want to pass!

and he has been rubbish for the last two seasons.

Sincerely hope this is tongue in cheek.

Nope.

[Scottrf]

It is a sad reflection on full backs in this country that Eddie doesn't think there's anyone who can catch, recycle, plus offer a little bit more though.

[cascough]

Its not that he can't pass, he just doesn't want to pass!

and he has been rubbish for the last two seasons.

Sincerely hope this is tongue in cheek.

Nope.

Odd that you chose to pick up on what I clearly described was an example to illustrate a wider point, and ignored the wider point instead. Ironic that in doing so, you would illustrate that wider point.

[cascough]

It is a sad reflection on full backs in this country that Eddie doesn't think there's anyone who can catch, recycle, plus offer a little bit more though.

Fair point, although I don't think it reflects on other full backs, more on what Jones sees as important. Ideally I'd agree we'd have someone who could do the lot, but that person doesn't exist, so if you have to compromise, I'm happy Eddie is sticking with the way Brown is being used.

[Sgt_Pooly]

Brown was excellent in Argentina...does this not count?

[Scottrf]

Brown was excellent in Argentina...does this not count?

Argentina are a club side, and it's 2 games in the past few years.

Attacking wise he hasn't done much outside of that.

I'm not really getting at him, but don't believe the theory that because we are winning we can't improve. I believe in Kaizen.

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