England Six Nations Thread

[Cumbrian]

First topic message reminder :

Squad (From RFU Website):

Backs

Full backs
Mike Brown (Harlequins)
Nathan Earle (Saracens) *
Harry Mallinder (Northampton Saints) *
Jonny May (Leicester Tigers)
Denny Solomona (Sale Sharks)
Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby)

Inside backs
Danny Care (Harlequins)
Owen Farrell (Saracens)
George Ford (Leicester Tigers)
Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby)
Alex Lozowski (Saracens)
Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs)
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs)
Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors)
Marcus Smith (Harlequins) * **
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

Forwards

Back five
Gary Graham (Newcastle Falcons) *
Nick Isiekwe (Saracens)
Maro Itoje (Saracens)
George Kruis (Saracens)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints)
Joe Launchbury (Wasps)
Zach Mercer (Bath Rugby) *
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)
Sam Simmonds (Exeter Chiefs)
Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby)

Front row
Lewis Boyce (Harlequins) *
Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers)
Tom Dunn (Bath Rugby) *
Jamie George (Saracens)
Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints)
Alec Hepburn (Exeter Chiefs) *
Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins)
Mako Vunipola (Saracens)
Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs)

Players unavailable
Tom Curry (Sale Sharks)
Elliot Daly (Wasps)
Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby)
Piers Francis (Northampton Saints)
Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers)
James Haskell (Wasps)
Nathan Hughes (Wasps)
Joe Marler (Harlequins)
Matt Mullan (Wasps)
Beno Obano (Bath Rugby)
Semesa Rokoduguni (Bath Rugby)
Will Spencer (Worcester Warriors)
Billy Vunipola (Saracens)

Uncapped *
Apprentice player **

Fixtures:

*All kick-off times in GMT.


Italy v England
Stadio Olimpico, Rome
Sunday 4th February 2018
Kick Off: 3:00pm

England v Wales
Twickenham Stadium, London
Saturday 10th February 2018
Kick Off: 4:45pm

Scotland v England
BT Murrayfield Stadium, Edinburgh
Saturday 24th February 2018
Kick Off: 4:45pm

France v England
Stade de France, Paris
Saturday 10th March 2018
Kick Off: 4:45pm

England v Ireland
Twickenham Stadium, London
Saturday 17th March 2018
Kick Off: 2:45pm

Officialdom:

Italy v England

Referee: Mathieu Raynal (France)
Assistant 1: Jérôme Garcès (France)
Assistant 2: Nic Berry (Australia)
TMO: Glenn Newman (New Zealand)

England v Wales

Referee: Jérôme Garcès (France)
Assistant 1: Mathieu Reynal (France)
Assistant 2: Nic Berry (Australia)
TMO: Glenn Newman (New Zealand)

Scotland v England

Referee: Nigel Owens (Wales)
Assistant 1: Jérôme Garcès (France)
Assistant 2: Andrew Brace (Ireland)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)

France v England

Referee: Jaco Peyper (South Africa)
Assistant 1: Angus Gardner (Australia)
Assistant 2: Marius van der Westhuizen (South Africa)
TMO: Ben Skeen (New Zealand)

England v Ireland

Referee: Angus Gardner (Australia)
Assistant 1: Jaco Peyper (South Africa)
Assistant 2: Marius van der Westhuizen (South Africa)
TMO: Ben Skeen (New Zealand)

[Geordie]

FFS Surely the key point is this.....

Eddie Jones, Steve Borthwhick, Paul Gustard + all the guest coaches that come in are with these players the entirety of the training get togethers and for the actual tournament get togethers.

They watch all the prem matches and European games involving English clubs.

THEY F*&KING WELL KNOW WHAT THEY ARE LOOKING FOR!!!!!!!!

[Scottrf]

FFS

From the person who complains every squad that Falcons players haven't been picked?

We may as well not discuss selection or subs.

[beshocked]

I think Eddie's preferred back row is pretty settled if only he could keep all the players fit. Robshaw, Underhill, Billy. It's less clear who the sub is - possibly he's happy to have a second lock on the bench.

As for Brown, he could pick Watson, or Nowell, or Daly, or Pennell, or even Goode. But he hasn't. I would have been very happy to see Watson given more time in the shirt, but it hasn't.

Brown doesn't make the breaks he used to, but he ties up defenders, is secure at the back, good at retaining possession and does pass when there's a genuine chance of a break. What he doesn't do is give hail Mary or hospital passes to his wingers.

It's percentage rugby, and it's almost certainly what he's been told to do by Eddie. It may frustrate us, but it's clear from the language Eddie has used this week that he intends to play Brown if he's fit. The only really relevant question is what he values that makes him so consistent in his selection.

I have suggested some ideas. It's a bit daft to suggest, though, that Eddie is hanging onto a player who is only giving him what he regards as a 5 or 6 /10 performance, especially when there are plenty of other options available.

Okay... so our first choice 7 is the unproven Underhill....

I don't think most forwards do hail mary passes either.

There's room for improvement.

I know you are a Mike Brown fan but his passing is below the average England forward let alone the backs.

I agree Brown can do certain things and players are being picked for their alleged strengths.

Well obviously Brown and Hartley aren't being picked primarily on their playing ability - it's their supposed leadership so of course Jones will add a mark or two to both for leadership.

Hartley and Brown are two of Jones' key men. He's identified them as his leaders - it doesn't say much about the rest of the leadership in the England squad but that's another problem.

Jones needs to develop other leaders but he hasn't shown signs of doing that.


Then there's of course the lack of challenge to Joseph, he walks into the starting line up. He's another player whose form has dropped but he's a nailed on because who else is there?

[No 7&1/2]

That last point is gubbins. Vice captains named thoughout the team. Comments quite a lot about it being important and looking for it in the squad.

[BamBam]

Has Nick Tompkins strung together a couple of decent games by any chance?

[No 7&1/2]

Penultimate point. Come.on beshocked name your full team and bench what you want to see and what you expect to see. Put your thoughts on paper definitively as you insist you're a font of rugby knowledge. Teach us.

[Geordie]

I think Eddie's preferred back row is pretty settled if only he could keep all the players fit. Robshaw, Underhill, Billy. It's less clear who the sub is - possibly he's happy to have a second lock on the bench.

As for Brown, he could pick Watson, or Nowell, or Daly, or Pennell, or even Goode. But he hasn't. I would have been very happy to see Watson given more time in the shirt, but it hasn't.

Brown doesn't make the breaks he used to, but he ties up defenders, is secure at the back, good at retaining possession and does pass when there's a genuine chance of a break. What he doesn't do is give hail Mary or hospital passes to his wingers.

It's percentage rugby, and it's almost certainly what he's been told to do by Eddie. It may frustrate us, but it's clear from the language Eddie has used this week that he intends to play Brown if he's fit. The only really relevant question is what he values that makes him so consistent in his selection.

I have suggested some ideas. It's a bit daft to suggest, though, that Eddie is hanging onto a player who is only giving him what he regards as a 5 or 6 /10 performance, especially when there are plenty of other options available.

Okay... so our first choice 7 is the unproven Underhill....

I don't think most forwards do hail mary passes either.

There's room for improvement.

I know you are a Mike Brown fan but his passing is below the average England forward let alone the backs.

I agree Brown can do certain things and players are being picked for their alleged strengths.

Well obviously Brown and Hartley aren't being picked primarily on their playing ability - it's their supposed leadership so of course Jones will add a mark or two to both for leadership.

Hartley and Brown are two of Jones' key men. He's identified them as his leaders - it doesn't say much about the rest of the leadership in the England squad but that's another problem.

Jones needs to develop other leaders but he hasn't shown signs of doing that.


Then there's of course the lack of challenge to Joseph, he walks into the starting line up. He's another player whose form has dropped but he's a nailed on because who else is there?

Alternatively...none are showing the natural instincts as a leader!

And all the previous calibre...U20 winning captains like Clifford, etc are all injury prone.

Only Itoje is a fixture in the side who is genuine Captaincy material.

[Geordie]

Penultimate point. Come.on beshocked name your full team and bench what you want to see and what you expect to see. Put your thoughts on paper definitively as you insist you're a font of rugby knowledge. Teach us.

Yes ...please just humour us, and put down your ideal starting 15 and bench.

Ill give you my honest opinon of it.

[lostinwales]

Re: Joseph

I do have some concerns that his best form was an abnormal peak rather than what he can aspire to all the time, but the main alternatives are doing a great job at getting injured. He's still a very good player even if he is not constantly as great as we'd ideally like.

[No 7&1/2]

An jones throwing in Nowell s name. Reflects the quality we have on the wing as well.

[TightHEAD]

Its not that he can't pass, he just doesn't want to pass!

and he has been rubbish for the last two seasons.

Sincerely hope this is tongue in cheek.

Nope.

Odd that you chose to pick up on what I clearly described was an example to illustrate a wider point, and ignored the wider point instead. Ironic that  in doing so, you would illustrate that wider point.

Believe it or not I never read your post.

I came to this conclusion all by myself by having watched Mike brown play on numerous occasions over the last two seasons.

[Barney McGrew did it]

My concerns with Eddie, such as they are, are that there’s this feeling that the 2 acknowledged areas of some weakness post-Lancaster aren’t nailed down yet some years later. In the short-term Eddie sorted the BR balance issue with simple roles for Haskell, Billy & Robshaw, who all played well. Now Haskell’s age, style & injury are catching up with him, Billy’s on the sick, leaving just Robshaw. Haskell mini-me Underhill keeps hurting himself, locks play at 6, and tbh I’m still not sure where the BR is heading (selection or style-wise). I guess if Underhill can stay fit and Billy ever returns we’ll see.

The centre combo seems better than expected to be fair – but there’s still some questions over OF as a 10 or 12. As well as JJ’s form.

In addition, where you need 2 specialists in the match squad, a third option to cover injury or development seems on the backburner at the moment. We’ve injuries to our top 2 no 8s (and others?), so it’s not impossible the same could happen to SH &/or hooker.

As for Brown, he follows an Eddie game-plan fine, and personally I like him. But it’s reasonable to question this if:
1. given his age you wonder how much longer he can keep going – so where’s the work on his successor
2. he gets injured then his replacement is likely to be pretty green at test FB
3. the game-plan doesn’t work in a particular game and you want a plan B
4. you just prefer your FBs in the Hogg or Smith or Williams attacking moulds

[TightHEAD]

When are teams ever at full strength with all their 1st choice players available these days?

Making the best of a bad situation is when coaches really earn their money, Eddie has done well so far, but it is a case of 'next man up' this 6 nations for most teams.

[beshocked]

1.Mako
2.George
3.Cole
4.Kruis
5.Launchbury
6. Robshaw or whoever is most fit.
7.Underhill
8.Simmonds

9.Youngs
10.Ford
11.May
12.Farrell
13.Joseph
14.Solomona
15.Watson

16.Hepburn
17.Dunn
18. Whoever is fit
19.Itoje or Lawes
20.Mercer
21.Care
22.Lozowski
23.Earle


I picked the locks I think are going to be in best shape for the game with Lawes and Itoje struggling for fitness.

As for captain I don't know if he was fully fit it would be Itoje. I guess I'd share the captaincy for the 6 nations - testing the leadership. Perhaps sharing the burden between the locks and making players like Youngs and Farrell vice captains.

The idea of sharing the captaincy might sound unorthodox but it would be a way to build the collective with a plan to pick a long term for the summer going into the AIs.

Now I personally believe you should only seriously consider Hartley as captain if you honestly think he is the best player in his position.

[Poorfour]

Not a bad side, though I think Eddie will disagree with you in three, possibly four positions. I would not be unhappy at all to see that take the field. I just don't think it will happen, but I think I've covered why already!

[No 7&1/2]

I'm impressed you've finally named the side and changed your mind quickly moving Launchbury to a starter. 1 obvious problem is what happens if Watson breaks his nose after 2 min. You'd end up with may at full back.

Sharing responsibility is something that Jones already does of course including joint captains over the summer.

[Rugby Fan]

There is a certain futility in complaining about coaching decisions. We can't run the tape again with a different set of choices, so we might know from a defeat that the coach got it wrong but we'll never know if the alternative would have produced a win.

There are occasions when popular clamour is rewarded. Jack Rowell ignored Neil Back, but Woodward found room for him, and it turned out he wasn't too small for Test rugby after all. In 1993 against Scotland, Stuart Barnes offered a tantalizing glimpse of what England had missed by selecting Rob Andrew for so long. The next match against Ireland was a disaster, so we never saw it again.

I really can't recall too many other English examples of a player winning selection after being out of favour for so long, then cementing his position. Funnily enough, Mike Brown is probably the most recent example. He was selected by Brian Ashton for the 2007 South Africa tour but then ignored. He went on the 2008 New Zealand tour but Johnson hadn't fully taken over at that point, and it's not clear who selected the squad.

Brown then didn't play another game for England until 2012, when Lancaster took over. Even then, Lancaster favoured Foden, so Brown was on the bench to begin with.

[Scottrf]

Lozowski has played full back.

[No 7&1/2]

True. Better than he's played fly half.

[No 7&1/2]

Has anyone seen the video of England practising high balls....Dropping them from drones!

[LondonTiger]

Has anyone seen the video of England practising high balls....Dropping them from drones!

Link?

[Scottrf]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-3965896/Eddie-Jones-use-drones-sends-really-strong-message-rugby-world-help-make-England-fly-players-buy-training.html

[No 7&1/2]

Check out @EnglandRugby’s Tweet: https://twitter.com/EnglandRugby/status/956881999947534336?s=09

Just a clip this 1 but there's a longer one somewhere

[ChequeredJersey]

I'm impressed you've finally named the side and changed your mind quickly moving Launchbury to a starter. 1 obvious problem is what happens if Watson breaks his nose after 2 min. You'd end up with may at full back.

Sharing responsibility is something that Jones already does of course including joint captains over the summer.

Earle would play fullback, I think

[ChequeredJersey]

I personally agree that we do need to start trialling other options as at least back ups to Brown - but Eddie had started that with Watson (whom I find unconvincing at 15) and his other main options here are injured.

I'd like to see what Daly does at 15 for England

[LondonTiger]

I desperately wanted to see Watson at 15, but as time goes bye, what I do see of him there I wonder if he is more effective attacking from the wing?

[ChequeredJersey]

For me, I see Watson as a starting choice 14.5 (new breed winger with fullback cover rather than outright winger), but not our best replacement as a back up starting fullback.

I'd have thought Daly works better starting at 15, and maybe even Nowell as a straight swap for Brown.

Earle could work there

Loz would give a different option with different strengths and weaknesses

I'd still like to see more of Haley

I don't want Mallinder anywhere near 15. He is a 12.

[No 7&1/2]

Haley is the guy who looked electric for saxons ain't he?

[kingelderfield]

Its quite shocking to compare our 'preferred' 23 with our available selection.
The argument that the injuries provide opportunities is really hollow. In reality what will happen is that EJ will have to continue to rely on the old lags, where as if he had a full squad to select from and support him, he could be more aggressive and challenge and try players from a position of strength.

[No 7&1/2]

Preferred to what we have now.
Marler (vunipola) hartley Cole
Kruis Itoje
Robshaw underhill
Vunipola (simmonds )
Youngs ford
Watson Farrell Joseph may brown

Hepburn (vunipola ) george williams (sinckler) lawes mercer (haskell) care lozowski (slade) Nowell (solomona)

[lostinwales]

Article in the Grauniad says Te'o fit after spending a few weeks in Oz rehabilitating, and Solomona in line to be picked on the wing in a combo with May and Watson, assuming Brown doesn't make it.

Now that is a fun back three.

For what it's worth https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2018/jan/26/england-six-nations-ben-teo-in-line-to-face-italy-rehab

[No 7&1/2]

That's dediction from te'o.

[lostinwales]

That's dediction from te'o.

Yes. He's not going to last past the RWC but can't help warming to him. He's going to be a very useful part of the wider squad until then

[Geordie]

..the centre, who is 31 on Sunday, revealed he is two kilograms lighter..

I drop a load bigger than that, the morning after a night out on the broon ale and curry!

[yappysnap]

I don't thinks Teo's ever sampled brown ale and curry though GF...

[ChequeredJersey]

Article in the Grauniad says Te'o fit after spending a few weeks in Oz rehabilitating, and Solomona in line to be picked on the wing in a combo with May and Watson, assuming Brown doesn't make it.

Now that is a fun back three.

For what it's worth https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2018/jan/26/england-six-nations-ben-teo-in-line-to-face-italy-rehab

I’m not convinced by that back 3 in defence but guess it will be fine vs Italy

[doctor_grey]

Why did Te'o have to take control of his own rehab?  If his club can't take care properly, that speaks volumes..........

[lostinwales]

Article in the Grauniad says Te'o fit after spending a few weeks in Oz rehabilitating, and Solomona in line to be picked on the wing in a combo with May and Watson, assuming Brown doesn't make it.

Now that is a fun back three.

For what it's worth https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2018/jan/26/england-six-nations-ben-teo-in-line-to-face-italy-rehab

I’m not convinced by that back 3 in defence but guess it will be fine vs Italy

May is probably the best defender -something which our local Saracens fan will love. I do think Watson is now a lot better in defense than he was when he was first capped.

Solomona who knows, but he has at least played a few more games of RU than he had when he was last picked. If he does play I do hope he gets off his wing occasionally and looks for work.

[Sgt_Pooly]

Agree on May, his one up defence is pretty good, it's his concentration levels that seems to drop off (although he seems better since moving to Tigers). I've not seen much of Solomona this season but he was all over the place in Argentina, perhaps due to not knowing the system too well??

[kingelderfield]

Probable back selection;
Young's
Ford
Salmonella
Farrell
Joseph
Clown Prince
Watson
Bench: Care Lozowski Te'o

With what's available I'd prefer Robson for Young's, Wade for Solomona and Cipriani for Loz

[No 7&1/2]

In a way yes they are acknowledging the poor scrummaging form vunipola is under but it does me me worry that it's allowing refs to focus on it even more.

Mako Vunipola: England prop says his scrummaging must improve for Six Nations - http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/42848602

Interesting that Hatley and presumably other england coaches are so involved during club sessions.

[king_carlos]

Why did Te'o have to take control of his own rehab?  If his club can't take care properly, that speaks volumes..........

Worcs have been looking for new ownership for a while so it would make sense if they are struggling to pay for rehab outside of their usual team and facilities.

It was less the club side and more the RFU side that surprised me when I saw the story. I was under the impression that the RFU played significant role in offering medical care above what clubs can given the huge budget and state of the art facility they have at their disposal.

I thought this was why long term sidelined EPS players are often seen at Pennyhill Park during training sessions they aren't fit to take part in.

[lostinwales]

Why did Te'o have to take control of his own rehab?  If his club can't take care properly, that speaks volumes..........

Worcs have been looking for new ownership for a while so it would make sense if they are struggling to pay for rehab outside of their usual team and facilities.

It was less the club side and more the RFU side that surprised me when I saw the story. I was under the impression that the RFU played significant role in offering medical care above what clubs can given the huge budget and state of the art facility they have at their disposal.

I thought this was why long term sidelined EPS players are often seen at Pennyhill Park during training sessions they aren't fit to take part in.

With Te'o it was going back to his league roots and something he knew would work for him. I wouldn't knock it - he is experienced enough to know what he wants, but it is not a route that would work for everyone.

[lostinwales]

Probable back selection;
Young's
Ford
Salmonella
Farrell
Joseph
Clown Prince
Watson
Bench: Care Lozowski Te'o

With what's available I'd prefer Robson for Young's, Wade for Solomona and Cipriani for Loz

Do you know I was looking at your preferences, and something struck me. (sarcasm) You are not by any chance a Wasps supporter are you? (/sarcasm)

[ChequeredJersey]

Isn’t he a Gloucester supporter?

[kingelderfield]

Waspies me old fruit.......how could you tell?

[lostinwales]

Waspies me old fruit.......how could you tell?

I think it was the attraction to old fruit...

[doctor_grey]

Why did Te'o have to take control of his own rehab?  If his club can't take care properly, that speaks volumes..........

Worcs have been looking for new ownership for a while so it would make sense if they are struggling to pay for rehab outside of their usual team and facilities.

It was less the club side and more the RFU side that surprised me when I saw the story. I was under the impression that the RFU played significant role in offering medical care above what clubs can given the huge budget and state of the art facility they have at their disposal.

I thought this was why long term sidelined EPS players are often seen at Pennyhill Park during training sessions they aren't fit to take part in.

With Te'o it was going back to his league roots and something he knew would work for him. I wouldn't knock it - he is experienced enough to know what he wants, but it is not a route that would work for everyone.

I get he went back to his roots - hadn't really thought of that. But each player at the clubs are covered by medical insurance. If not, it would be difficult to attract players to the clubs. It seemed to me when I read the article that Te'o must have thought his care wrong or inadequate and decided to do his own thing. It seems very strange that a professional athlete believes he can't find proper care in England (or possibly even UK).

[lostinwales]

Why did Te'o have to take control of his own rehab?  If his club can't take care properly, that speaks volumes..........

Worcs have been looking for new ownership for a while so it would make sense if they are struggling to pay for rehab outside of their usual team and facilities.

It was less the club side and more the RFU side that surprised me when I saw the story. I was under the impression that the RFU played significant role in offering medical care above what clubs can given the huge budget and state of the art facility they have at their disposal.

I thought this was why long term sidelined EPS players are often seen at Pennyhill Park during training sessions they aren't fit to take part in.

With Te'o it was going back to his league roots and something he knew would work for him. I wouldn't knock it - he is experienced enough to know what he wants, but it is not a route that would work for everyone.

I get he went back to his roots - hadn't really thought of that.  But each player at the clubs are covered by medical insurance.  If not, it would be difficult to attract players to the clubs.  It seemed to me when I read the article that Te'o must have thought his care wrong or inadequate and decided to do his own thing.  It seems very strange that a professional athlete believes he can't find proper care in England (or possibly even UK).  

It is all conjecture and it makes a nice story, but maybe he figured since he was off for a few weeks he'd rather rehab in the Australian summer rather than this English winter

[doctor_grey]

Why did Te'o have to take control of his own rehab?  If his club can't take care properly, that speaks volumes..........

Worcs have been looking for new ownership for a while so it would make sense if they are struggling to pay for rehab outside of their usual team and facilities.

It was less the club side and more the RFU side that surprised me when I saw the story. I was under the impression that the RFU played significant role in offering medical care above what clubs can given the huge budget and state of the art facility they have at their disposal.

I thought this was why long term sidelined EPS players are often seen at Pennyhill Park during training sessions they aren't fit to take part in.

With Te'o it was going back to his league roots and something he knew would work for him. I wouldn't knock it - he is experienced enough to know what he wants, but it is not a route that would work for everyone.

I get he went back to his roots - hadn't really thought of that.  But each player at the clubs are covered by medical insurance.  If not, it would be difficult to attract players to the clubs.  It seemed to me when I read the article that Te'o must have thought his care wrong or inadequate and decided to do his own thing.  It seems very strange that a professional athlete believes he can't find proper care in England (or possibly even UK).  

It is all conjecture and it makes a nice story, but maybe he figured since he was off for a few weeks he'd rather rehab in the Australian summer rather than this English winter

Can't argue with the weather............

[Sponsored content]