England Six Nations Thread

[Cumbrian]

First topic message reminder :

Squad (From RFU Website):

Backs

Full backs
Mike Brown (Harlequins)
Nathan Earle (Saracens) *
Harry Mallinder (Northampton Saints) *
Jonny May (Leicester Tigers)
Denny Solomona (Sale Sharks)
Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby)

Inside backs
Danny Care (Harlequins)
Owen Farrell (Saracens)
George Ford (Leicester Tigers)
Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby)
Alex Lozowski (Saracens)
Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs)
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs)
Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors)
Marcus Smith (Harlequins) * **
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

Forwards

Back five
Gary Graham (Newcastle Falcons) *
Nick Isiekwe (Saracens)
Maro Itoje (Saracens)
George Kruis (Saracens)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints)
Joe Launchbury (Wasps)
Zach Mercer (Bath Rugby) *
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)
Sam Simmonds (Exeter Chiefs)
Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby)

Front row
Lewis Boyce (Harlequins) *
Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers)
Tom Dunn (Bath Rugby) *
Jamie George (Saracens)
Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints)
Alec Hepburn (Exeter Chiefs) *
Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins)
Mako Vunipola (Saracens)
Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs)

Players unavailable
Tom Curry (Sale Sharks)
Elliot Daly (Wasps)
Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby)
Piers Francis (Northampton Saints)
Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers)
James Haskell (Wasps)
Nathan Hughes (Wasps)
Joe Marler (Harlequins)
Matt Mullan (Wasps)
Beno Obano (Bath Rugby)
Semesa Rokoduguni (Bath Rugby)
Will Spencer (Worcester Warriors)
Billy Vunipola (Saracens)

Uncapped *
Apprentice player **

Fixtures:

*All kick-off times in GMT.


Italy v England
Stadio Olimpico, Rome
Sunday 4th February 2018
Kick Off: 3:00pm

England v Wales
Twickenham Stadium, London
Saturday 10th February 2018
Kick Off: 4:45pm

Scotland v England
BT Murrayfield Stadium, Edinburgh
Saturday 24th February 2018
Kick Off: 4:45pm

France v England
Stade de France, Paris
Saturday 10th March 2018
Kick Off: 4:45pm

England v Ireland
Twickenham Stadium, London
Saturday 17th March 2018
Kick Off: 2:45pm

Officialdom:

Italy v England

Referee: Mathieu Raynal (France)
Assistant 1: Jérôme Garcès (France)
Assistant 2: Nic Berry (Australia)
TMO: Glenn Newman (New Zealand)

England v Wales

Referee: Jérôme Garcès (France)
Assistant 1: Mathieu Reynal (France)
Assistant 2: Nic Berry (Australia)
TMO: Glenn Newman (New Zealand)

Scotland v England

Referee: Nigel Owens (Wales)
Assistant 1: Jérôme Garcès (France)
Assistant 2: Andrew Brace (Ireland)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)

France v England

Referee: Jaco Peyper (South Africa)
Assistant 1: Angus Gardner (Australia)
Assistant 2: Marius van der Westhuizen (South Africa)
TMO: Ben Skeen (New Zealand)

England v Ireland

Referee: Angus Gardner (Australia)
Assistant 1: Jaco Peyper (South Africa)
Assistant 2: Marius van der Westhuizen (South Africa)
TMO: Ben Skeen (New Zealand)

[mid_gen]

Nothing to be concerned about from this performance. Scotland shambolic mainly down to Russell, lack of leadership and their absence of midfield defence. We will score a lot of tries against them.

Wales...meh, solid home performance as usual, didn't need much.

I'd be much more worried if Scotland had blown Wales away, that trip to Murray field was looking like our toughest fixture......before...

[No 7&1/2]

Physicality will be key. Which brings focus on that decision at 13 tomorrow. A few people have been calling for that brutality somewhere on midfield.

[Exiledinborders]

Scotland are offering next to nothing, they've not looked like scoring. Wales have looked a class above....Russell has had a mare.

Russell always has a mare if things don't go well from the start. Once Scotland go behind he panics. He did the same against England last year. To be fair the scrum half was if anything worse.

[Poorfour]

It's very hard to judge Wales's performance on the basis of that game. Three of their four tries came directly from interceptions, and the Scottish defence was so full of holes that Wales didn't have to do anything exceptional to make yards.

Scotland threw away so many attacking positions that it's really difficult to gauge whether the Welsh defence is up to much.

That said, Patchell, the centres and Shingler impressed, but the scrum was surprisingly quiet against a much depleted Scottish unit.

[RuggerRadge2611]

That was a shambles. No getting away from it we need Dunbar and Taylor back ASAP. Could be a long tournament for us... Again.

[No 7&1/2]

Ireland lineout is a warning to us. I can't emphasise how much importance borthwick has on this 6Ns.

[doctor_grey]

Well, we are one game into the tournament and everything is going exactly as I predicted (except that I thought Scotland would beat Wales).

[ChequeredJersey]

Thought Navidi was good for Wales too. As long as we pick an actual backrow I’m not worried though.

Ireland’s attack was utterly 1D and Sexton was utterly predictable but Ireland showed huge balls and the whole Irish side huge discipline at the end. Their lineout was good but it was also consistently not straight and their maul was easily defended by the French

[ChequeredJersey]

That was a shambles. No getting away from it we need Dunbar and Taylor back ASAP. Could be a long tournament for us... Again.

you'll play better

[mid_gen]

Scotland aren't as bad as their scoreline today, they will play better and I'm think they'll manage more than one win. Still have kinda a bad feeling about the trip to Murrayfield despite today's performance.

Now...about bloody time we turned up on day 1, get the BP and at least +30 points difference

[SecretFly]

Thought Navidi was good for Wales too. As long as we pick an actual backrow I’m not worried though.

Ireland’s attack was utterly 1D and Sexton was utterly predictable but Ireland showed huge balls and the whole Irish side huge discipline at the end. Their lineout was good but it was also consistently not straight and their maul was easily defended by the French

That's the way we play.... and even more so on a wet day. Safety and percentages - never have any one player too far away from his teammates, so very few individual moments of 'brilliance' because if they don't work, Joe will tar and feather you. Players run back into traffic because they know the dynamic is not to follow a moment of individual brilliance.

I knew it would be a battering ram/blunt game from Ireland in the first half. Thought we might get more leverage at speeding up in the second but quite simply, between Irish errors, weather and simple and purely a very intense 80 minutes from an interested and sharp French side, we almost lost.

Such is the 6N. Thank God for that drop...................and I hate drops.

[ChequeredJersey]

It’s not just that. Sexton, ball in hand, now 50-50 “show and goes” or does the Sexton Loop tm. Even when Ireland are in attack mode

[SecretFly]

It’s not just that. Sexton, ball in hand, now 50-50 “show and goes” or does the Sexton Loop tm. Even when Ireland are in attack mode

Oh I think attack mode might be a little more creative down the line this year. When or where - who is to know? But if he won the 6N doing the predictable then I'd say 'good man'. Again though I'll say there is not a whole lot of creativity required when the players you are playing the ball to are all under strict orders to be sober, conservative and low on personal ambition. I don't think most of our 'attack' is designed to be genuinely cutting edge or space finding, more so simply as another method of maintaining possession and grunting slowly up the field. Joe prefers blunt it seems, certainly at International level.

[Recwatcher16]

Teo at thirteen for England shows EJ's determination to stick with attacking the thirteen channel but with a bludgeon rather than a speedy JJ. However with Watson and May on the wings perhaps he will just be a distraction with the miss pass.

[Scottrf]

Scotland aren't as bad as their scoreline today, they will play better and I'm think they'll manage more than one win. Still have kinda a bad feeling about the trip to Murrayfield despite today's performance.

Now...about bloody time we turned up on day 1, get the BP and at least +30 points difference

Why? Not only are we a better team, we are a bad matchup for them.

We ruthlessly exploit the errors they inevitably make, and shut down most of their play with great defence.

[Sgt_Pooly]

Ireland’s attack was utterly 1D and Sexton was utterly predictable but Ireland showed huge balls and the whole Irish side huge discipline at the end. Their lineout was good but it was also consistently not straight and their maul was easily defended by the French

It's strange because you look at that Ireland backline and there's bags of attacking talent. The Irish provinces play some great stuff but Schmit just seems to coach it out of them. They may well win the 6N but it won't be with exciting rugby or anything that'll threaten NZ, I really wish they'd open up a bit (or not perhaps as they could be outstanding).

[Cyril]

Ireland haven’t won an outright championship since 2009. I think the bonus points system won’t help their negative style. Kick chase and choke tackle etc Sexton and Murray both need to take the blame for this as well as their ultra conservative coach.

At home I’d certainly back England to outscore them comfortably.

[Sgt_Pooly]

I'm not sure about that, their defence is top notch. It'll be interesting to see if they can change their style and open up a bit though.

[SecretFly]

These dates and dates.  I heard another allusion to WW2 in one of these Go Compare posts last week.
It'll be tough, tough and maybe even tough again to beat England in Twickenham...... but someone has got to try.

Much much too presumptuous of either side though to predict that the game will mean anything for either side.  So one game at a time is the best policy and I'm sure boring Joe will have that in his head.
The side that plays the least attractive brand of rugby is the only side that has beaten number 2 side in the world and number 1 side in the world in recent times.  So they know what they're doing and when it operates well, they do it well.  Yesterday was a dreadful game by even their standards and still... they grabbed a win.

So Joe................. he can coach it both ways and has proven it by now.  With Ireland International, he chooses conservative and defence driven.

[Sgt_Pooly]

"The side that plays the least attractive brand of rugby is the only side that has beaten number 2 side in the world and number 1 side in the world in recent times."

Fair point SecretFly and you can only beat what's in front of you. To counter though, the NZ game was immense but it was a much weakened NZ side and you had England at home. Not to take away anything but it needs some perspective.

It would be a huge statement if Ireland beat England at HQ.

You do play some boring rugby though, it's tough to watch as a neutral.

[SecretFly]

"The side that plays the least attractive brand of rugby is the only side that has beaten number 2 side in the world and number 1 side in the world in recent times."

Fair point SecretFly and you can only beat what's in front of you. To counter though, the NZ game was immense but it was a much weakened NZ side and you had England at home. Not to take away anything but it needs some perspective.

It would be a huge statement if Ireland beat England at HQ.

You do play some boring rugby though, it's tough to watch as a neutral.

You only have to go to specifically Irish threads to hear all the complaints about the boring rugby.  Believe me, we don't need anyone from the outside telling us how boring we look.  I'm from Leinster.  We love our fast, loose, attacking, smart rugby.  Joe was at the helm when we were the best in Europe at it.  I don't like our International style but it's obvious that Joe has thought long and hard about why he chooses the style he has chosen and it pays him back in some very important wins through the years.

He might choose to loosen it up, it might look divine but we still might get hammered in most games.  Joe is smart.  That's why despite the style of play that most people in Ireland genuinely wish we weren't playing, most people in Ireland want Schmidt to stay.
Plus - perspective is winning.  If you beat the ABs later this year you won't care that they are weakened or at full strength.  You'll have beaten them and you'll be happy.  And if you beat Ireland at home, you won't care too much that it was a home game, you'll have beaten them.  If 'home' is an advantage, then it's an advantage - for everyone.

[Sgt_Pooly]

Agree SF, I wasn't having a go, rather just trying to look at a different point of view. If this style woks then so be it, it's when it doesn't that vultures come out.

Ireland have some serious quality in their ranks, they could play some great rugby and still win imo. Is Joe holding you back? Maybe....

[lostinwales]

Yes we are all playing test rugby to win games. Style is a nice add on and haven't we (as England supporters) been hearing and using that line for years.

There has to be a plan B though, especially these days. If the other team gets a proper lead early on (not 2 points) How do you change gear and open up? What if the other team is just as solid in defense, and you can't rely on being able to grind them into submission?

[SecretFly]

I guess we'll see the answers to all that stuff over the next few weeks... for every side.... including the side that's getting all the plaudits so far for the beautiful stuff - Wales. Plan B.

[carpet baboon]

As a side point did you England fans care when you were accused of winning through the boot of Andrews and Wilkinson and playing boring tight 10 man rugby?
Don't think you did, and nor should you have. It's winning that matters in pro sport

[lostinwales]

As a side point did you England fans care when you were accused of winning through the boot of Andrews and Wilkinson and playing boring tight 10 man rugby?
Don't think you did, and nor should you have. It's winning that matters in pro sport

Which is what I said earlier. I do think the game has moved on though

[eirebilly]

Its funny how people have different perceptions of players. Wilkinson to me was an excellent 10 in attack and defence. Just because he was excellent from the tee does not make him 'only a points machine for England'.

[carpet baboon]

Its funny how people have different perceptions of players. Wilkinson to me was an excellent 10 in attack and defence. Just because he was excellent from the tee does not make him 'only a points machine for England'.

I agree he was an amazing player ( claim to fame in my youth I played against him. Came off my wing to take an Inside ball off our ten. Willko met my ribs at pace. I didn't cry I promise) but my point was England were accused of negative 10 man rugby, but the fans didn't care as they won.

[eirebilly]

Its funny how people have different perceptions of players. Wilkinson to me was an excellent 10 in attack and defence. Just because he was excellent from the tee does not make him 'only a points machine for England'.

I agree he was an amazing player ( claim to fame in my youth I played against him. Came off my wing to take an Inside  ball off our ten. Willko met my ribs at pace. I didn't cry I promise) but my point was England were accused of negative 10 man rugby, but the fans didn't care as they won.

I know where you are coming from there, it was not directed at you personally. I have just read, over the years, how people saw Wilkinson as purely a kicker and I think that is a great disservice to him as he was one of the best ever 10's for me.

[Rugby Fan]

... England were accused of negative 10 man rugby, but the fans didn't care as they won.

Woodward's England weren't much accused of 10 man rugby when they were playing. It's more a label used to dismiss them after the event. The confusion is partly because England won two Grand Slams with a brand of 10 man rugby in the early nineties. People who didn't really watch Woodward's team (including quite a lot of New Zealanders, as we didn't play them much) just assume that they must have played the same way, as Wilkinson was a prolific scorer.

[Guest]

Jonny Wilkinson missing some teeth?! My Mrs is angry. Says he’s let himself go!

[Scottrf]

Jonny Wilkinson missing some teeth?! My Mrs is angry. Says he’s let himself go!

Ha I've just been told that too.

[EnglishReign]

Jonny Wilkinson missing some teeth?! My Mrs is angry. Says he’s let himself go!

Ha I've just been told that too.

Personally think he's looking as good as ever

[SecretFly]

Sorry but Rob Kearney is to die for.............. those dark Eagle eyes! *swoon*

[Guest]

Lovely loop around move. Good start!

[lostinwales]

Clear Ita knock on at the ruck

[Guest]

That looked and sounded nasty. Can’t see Youngs coming back on after that. Knee ligaments at a guess.

[lostinwales]

Nice seeing Watson clearing Parisse from the ruck

[lostinwales]

That looked and sounded nasty. Can’t see Youngs coming back on after that. Knee ligaments at a guess.

I really hope that wasn't deliberate

[lostinwales]

Way too quiet on here. Watson no.2 and 2nd assist from May. Fab stuff

[Sgt_Pooly]

There's a match thread mate

[Taylorman]

... England were accused of negative 10 man rugby, but the fans didn't care as they won.

Woodward's England weren't much accused of 10 man rugby when they were playing. It's more a label used to dismiss them after the event. The confusion is partly because England won two Grand Slams with a brand of 10 man rugby in the early nineties. People who didn't really watch Woodward's team (including quite a lot of New Zealanders, as we didn't play them much) just assume that they must have played the same way, as Wilkinson was a prolific scorer.

No, it actually was ten man rugby against the SH sides. The scoring proves that emphatically. You don’t win fifteen tests and score twenty tries by playing fifteen man rugby and have penalties as your most prolific method of scoring. You never seem to have got that Rugby. My opinion is that you have never truly experienced real fifteen man rugby at the elite level...because you’ve never seen it from your teams.

If it was fifteen man rugby then it ranks as the poorest scoring fifteen man rugby I’ve ever seen.

[Scottrf]

We all know the NZ way is the only way to play the game.

[No 7&1/2]

Ben kay reckoned it is between Robson and Wigglesworth to come in next week. Seems an obvious choice to me....

Would you all be looking for care to start though or does his impact despite much greater experience mean a possible starting debut?

[LondonTiger]

If Wiggy comes in, can see him possibly starting. Robson would be on the bench.

[Geordie]

Wigglesworth?

Dear Lord why not just roll out Dewi Morris again.

[nathan]

What's Robson box kicking like?

[Poorfour]

... England were accused of negative 10 man rugby, but the fans didn't care as they won.

Woodward's England weren't much accused of 10 man rugby when they were playing. It's more a label used to dismiss them after the event. The confusion is partly because England won two Grand Slams with a brand of 10 man rugby in the early nineties. People who didn't really watch Woodward's team (including quite a lot of New Zealanders, as we didn't play them much) just assume that they must have played the same way, as Wilkinson was a prolific scorer.

No, it actually was ten man rugby against the SH sides. The scoring proves that emphatically. You don’t win fifteen tests and score twenty tries by playing fifteen man rugby and have penalties as your most prolific method of scoring. You never seem to have got that Rugby. My opinion is that you have never truly experienced real fifteen man rugby at the elite level...because you’ve never seen it from your teams.

If it was fifteen man rugby then it ranks as the poorest scoring fifteen man rugby I’ve ever seen.

Journo: Why do you kick so many penalties?
Johnno: It isn’t us who’s giving the kickable penalties away. Ask the other team.

[Heaf]

Indeed - maybe it's the cynical play from the other teams giving away penalties rather than conceding tries when under pressure ...

[SecretFly]

ah but big and technically good 10 man teams go hunting for penalties. They force them. So a bit of both. Wilko got the penalties because the 10 special ones knew they'd force them.

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