The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

First topic message reminder :

Some of the Irish provinces seem to be doing fine.  Munster might be able to pay back a few shillings to Landsdowne HQ this season.  Leinster have finally started sharing. Connacht have survived Mr Grumpy and have managed another Challenge Cup quarter.  Could they make the final?
Ulster need a separate topic to cover all their issues.  Oh - and they have one.  

Italy.  Treviso are now Benetton and improving to the point of it being grudgingly admitted outside of Italy.  Zebre?  See Ulster above.  The FIR continue to fiddle the other unions while Rome burns.  

Scarlets on the other hand continue to see Byrne roam.  And sidestep.  The WRU must be grinning from ear to ear as Scarlets are simply steaming.   Who needs union monies when you can assemble a squad like this?  Top of their conference and finishing top of their pool in front of a packed house to gain a home quarterfinal in the Champions Cup. What more could you ask for?  Possibly a sneaky Welsh cap for Tadgh Beirne but little else to complain about.  If Gatland can harness the Scarlets, a la Leinster and Glasgow, and get Wales moving to the top in the Six Nations, the WRU might need to send a little more love (hard cash) over Llanelli way to encourage them further.  

Dragons got bought by the WRU.  And then hired an Irish coach. And then fixed their pitch.  And then things went so so.  And the jury went out on Jackman.  And then they started losing. A lot.  And then they had lots of announcements about new players for next season. And then they got knocked out of the Challenge Cup.  
And now it’s a wait for another season.  Not sure if the jury has come back in yet but Jackman has a battle on his hands.  

Ospreys continue to plumb new depths and eventually decided to fire their coach after failing in the Champions Cup once again.  Will they be in the Challenge Cup next season?

Cardiff have at least made the knockouts of the Challenge Cup but they’re still batting eyes at the WRU some say.  Will they succumb to the union’s clutches?

All the way down to Port Elizabeth for the new entrants.

The Southern Kings? See Zebre.  X 100.   Massive squad revamp needed and SARU investment.

Cheetahs?   Just when they’d notched another triumph on their league bedpost, came the news that another of their players had been nicked for another SR side. Their top try scorer is leaving too.  They’ve 8 wins in the bag, can they get a few more to make it into the playoffs?  

And finally the Scots.  Cockerill is definitely making inroads and if it doesn’t happen this season, they’ll be making life difficult in 2018/19 for a few of the higher up clubs. Their sassy and classy neighbours look strong prospects for the Championship title with a single loss so far.   Not too long ago, the SRU was making plaintive noises about the costs of running the two clubs and seeking private investors.  Then they went quiet.  Then they announced a profit for the first time in a long while.  And investment in academy is starting to pay off.  And the Test team isn’t doing too shabby either.  SRU CEO, Mark Dodson, says long term objective is to secure external investment to ensure the future of the game.  

We’ve had the first inkling of a change and expected increase in TV revenues for the Championship with EirSport announced as the new broadcaster for games in the Irish territory.  Anayi & Co still have to deliver a substantial increase on previous revenues.  The SARU/SuperSport deal has ensured part of that with a reported 36m six-year agreement.   What will GB deliver?

Private investment and Union control/money.  Will a happy marriage eventually be reached?

So I take it you're against scotland looking to have a bit more control on players outside their league? As I said doubt it would happen with he current rfu and prl agreement in place.

I think this is a shrewd piece of thinking by the Scottish union. Good to see them being flexible and innovative in finding new ways to develop new talent. The SRU have upped their game a lot in recent years.

The Welsh Union will need to continue increasing their funding into the regions for academy player development and focus on sustain the existing four regions.

The FIR’s recruitment of Steve Aboud along with O’Shea is also starting to show some green shoots. As others remarked on here, the performance of their U20’s this year was an eye opener.

Greg Garner said on his appointment last year as referees manager with the PRO14 that they plan to have a panel of full time refs employed by the PRO14 working in ‘teams’ similar to the approach taken by WR. The Welsh, Scottish and Italian unions have invested more in development of more referees. SARU will need to increase their allotment next season.

Hi Pot Hale, thanks for the decent reply.

But, just to confirm my plea about rubbish refs in the Pro14, I would like you to take last Friday nights game between Ospreys and Southern Kings into account.

After aprox 11 minutes the Referee David Wilkinson had penalised the Kings on 5 occasions after the 5th time he warned the Kings captain that next infringement would see someone leaving the field, on the next infringement about a minute later, one of the Kings props went straight down and he penalised them again, and he warned them AGAIN, Ospreys went and took another scrum Tom Habberfield our S/H took the ball and sprinted over for a try, but if you study the movement, Wilkinson was stood directly in the way of the Kings S/H stopping him getting to Habberfield. His incompetence carried on for the rest of the match.

After the game Allen Clarke Ospreys acting Head Coach gave a Press Conference where he said he wasn't joking where he said the 4th official came on to the pitch and passed to Wilkinson his Red and Yellow Cards, the BUFFOON had come on without them.

Is this the standard we have come to expect in our league ?

Are you happy with this standard of officiating ?

Is this why yu think I hound you as I'll keep asking questions you ignore ld? What's wrong with scotland trying to develop players and having more control of players outside the league?

LordDowlais wrote:Hi Pot Hale, thanks for the decent reply.

But, just to confirm my plea about rubbish refs in the Pro14, I would like you to take last Friday nights game between Ospreys and Southern Kings into account.

After aprox 11 minutes the Referee David Wilkinson had penalised the Kings on 5 occasions after the 5th time he warned the Kings captain that next infringement would see someone leaving the field, on the next infringement about a minute later, one of the Kings props went straight down and he penalised them again, and he warned them AGAIN, we went and took another scrum Tom Habberfield our S/H took the ball and sprinted over for a try, but if you study the movement, Wilkinson was stood directly in the way of the Kings S/H stopping him getting to Habberfield. His incompetence carried on for the rest of the match.

After the game Allen Clarke Ospreys acting Head Coach gave a Press Conference where he said he wasn't joking where he said the 4th official came on to the pitch and passed to Wilkinson his Red and Yellow Cards, the BUFFOON had come on without them.

Is this the standard we have come to expect in our league ?

Are you happy with this standard of officiating ?

The refereering in the Aviva and the Top14 is no better

Watched Luke Pierce on Friday - absolutely appalling.
One of those rare occasions when I totally agree with Austin Healey.

Saracens played the scrum half at a ruck (nearly pulled him off his feet) , then Weber came in and made a perfectly legal clear out and got pinged
The bloke is sub standard and is not alone.

Garcas was very poor in the England Wales game.

Poor referring is across the board and as such the Pro14 is not out of the ordinary

No 7&1/2 wrote:Is this why yu think I hound you as I'll keep asking questions you ignore ld? What's wrong with scotland trying to develop players and having more control of players outside the league?

I have given my reason about this throughout this thread, yet here you are again.

So I will say this for the last time.

I think Scotland have their priorities all wrong, they should not be investing in another league, they should be investing in their own league. If they feel they do not have enough spaces for players, then either go down the route the WRU are doing with RGC1404, or stop signing NSQ players, and put all these "extra" players into Glasgow and Edinburgh.

Also, the SRU do not contribute enough to our league when it comes to officiating instead of putting a million or so quid into Newcastle, I would like to think that they would prioritise their own house first, and help raise the standards of their own bread and butter.

geoff999rugby wrote:Poor referring is across the board and as such the Pro14 is not out of the ordinary

So are we just supposed to except it ?

I would love for the Pro14 to be leading the way in exemplary refereeing standards, having an off day is one thing, but being consistently poor is another.

How can a ref forget to take his cards onto the field with him ? That is amateurism at it's worst. Come on.

Thanks ld. Do you not think it's balancing act though. They want Edinburgh and Glasgow to be good competitive teams but that's against ensuring the national team improve as well. It's not about investing in someone else league to them but investing in the continued development of their players. My bet that this investment would be aimed at getting a certain amount of control over those players for release to training camps hence why I doubt it'll be accepted. There's always going to be external non qualified players to ensure that their teams are getting the best they can and there'll be players wanting to try themselves in a different league.

Its all separate to their refs though as it's about their players. You don't stop developing one tom develop the other.

LordDowlais wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:Poor referring is across the board and as such the Pro14 is not out of the ordinary

So are we just supposed to except it ?

I would love for the Pro14 to be leading the way in exemplary refereeing standards, having an off day is one thing, but being consistently poor is another.

How can a ref forget to take his cards onto the field with him ? That is amateurism at it's worst. Come on.

So he can't have had an off day?

marty2086 wrote:So he can't have had an off day?

Is it just an argument you are looking for ?

please note this which you have ignored:-

LordDowlais wrote:I would love for the Pro14 to be leading the way in exemplary refereeing standards, having an off day is one thing, but being consistently poor is another.

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:So he can't have had an off day?

Is it just an argument you are looking for ?

please note this which you have ignored:-

LordDowlais wrote:I would love for the Pro14 to be leading the way in exemplary refereeing standards, having an off day is one thing, but being consistently poor is another.

I didn't ignore genius I was referencing it in regards to this

How can a ref forget to take his cards onto the field with him ? That is amateurism at it's worst. Come on.

Typical of you to jump in without thinking

Well it is, do you think that doing something like forgetting your cards is having an "off day" ?

I think that should be something that's never forgotten, would you be happy for a ref to forget his whistle ?

It's beggars belief, but no doubt you will counter it.

Of course a human making a mistake is indefensible, god forbid such a horrible thing was to happen

It's very unprofessional.

Yup. Happens though. Even in the most professional of leagues and sports.

Do you not think the leagues arundel the world need to get their heads together supported by wr to send refs to different leagues for s number of games per.season. Will benefit the refs players and fans. Allows players to get used to other refs he's the refs know the little differences between the leagues etc and helps the fans understand there is no true gold standard. So the moans will just be about the brave guys willing to do the job.

Have you ever made a mistake measuring carpet LD?

Is there a red faced angry man posting on carpet forums about how incompetent and unprofessional you are? Would explain why you're so frustrated all the time

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yup.  Happens though. Even in the most professional of leagues and sports.

Do you not think the leagues arundel the world need to get their heads together supported by wr to send refs to different leagues for s number of games per.season. Will benefit the refs players and fans. Allows players to get used to other refs he's the refs know the little differences between the leagues etc and helps the fans understand there is no true gold standard. So the moans will just be about the brave guys willing to do the job.

Would also add a little more intrigue when you have a NH interpretation in the SH and vice versa

BamBam wrote:Have you ever made a mistake measuring carpet LD?

Is there a red faced angry man posting on carpet forums about how incompetent and unprofessional you are? Would explain why you're so frustrated all the time

That wouldn't effect him though

LordDowlais wrote:

I think that should be something that's never forgotten, would you be happy for a ref to forget his whistle ?

I think I'd love for refs to forget their whistles now and again. I don't think any ref is worth a crap if he can't whistle with his fingers in an emergency. He could even use a blade of semi-natural plastic grass if he got the right training.

LordDowlais wrote:

the 4th official came on to the pitch and passed to Wilkinson his Red and Yellow Cards, the BUFFOON had come on without them.

Tell me that is not true.

LordDowlais wrote:
After the game Allen Clarke Ospreys acting Head Coach gave a Press Conference where he said he wasn't joking where he said the 4th official came on to the pitch and passed to Wilkinson his Red and Yellow Cards, the BUFFOON had come on without them.

Lambasts people for hounding and insulting him, then uses insults about people

What a mind

RugbyFan100 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

the 4th official came on to the pitch and passed to Wilkinson his Red and Yellow Cards, the BUFFOON had come on without them.

Tell me that is not true.

Allan Clarke says he wasn't joking. Press Conference at the UN building - 2.00 pm GMT.

St John The Enforcer wrote:

Or.... You know... The opposite. Dragons already back in the fold. Just 3 more and we are all back in the union.

Why does everyone else have to change when there are at least 10 union controlled teams in the league?

The answer to this is:

1) Sensible people can see that the leagues that are the most successful and generate the most income are those that are run by bodies that represent the teams in the league only. It means the teams are in control of their own destiny, income generation and structures. Being run and controlled by organisations whose main job is to concentrate on stadiums and teams that play in other competitions - is far from ideal and devalues the league in ways which have been spoken about at length on this forum recently.

2) The Dragons are a mess. They've barely won a league match all season. They can't play Gavin Henson because they can't afford his match appearance fees. Their winning ratio is lower than last season. Jackman has argued with players and the fans are angry at him for not picking goal kickers. Yes, Union ownership is working wonders.

1) Not true.  A team's destiny is a team's destiny.  You win and you earn money.  You lose and you're the Dragons - private ownership or not.  Oh and ownership is ownership...is ownership.

2) The Dragons were a mess before the WRU walked in and if you expect magic wands to work in a season or two then you might be better off looking at the Harry Potter franchise rather than rugby.

SecretFly wrote:1) Not true.  A team's destiny is a team's destiny.  You win and you earn money.  You lose and you're the Dragons - private ownership or not.  Oh and ownership is ownership...is ownership.

How you can still claim this after Ruan Pienaar was told to leave Ulster by Ulster's union, shows what level of misinformation you are typing on a regular basis on this forum.

2) The Dragons were a mess before the WRU walked in and if you expect magic wands to work in a season or two then you might be better off looking at the Harry Potter franchise rather than rugby.

Right. So why are they "back in the fold" ?

I’ve not seen one credible source for this Henson rumour. Seems to be a bit of a Gwlad special and one that Phil BB seems happy to push.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:1) Not true.  A team's destiny is a team's destiny.  You win and you earn money.  You lose and you're the Dragons - private ownership or not.  Oh and ownership is ownership...is ownership.

How you can still claim this after Ruan Pienaar was told to leave Ulster by Ulster's union, shows what level of misinformation you are typing on a regular basis on this forum.

2) The Dragons were a mess before the WRU walked in and if you expect magic wands to work in a season or two then you might be better off looking at the Harry Potter franchise rather than rugby.

Right. So why are they "back in the fold" ?

A team's destiny is their destiny...ownership is ownership...is ownership.

The Dragons were a mess before the WRU walked in.

marty/Bambam

Why are you making this personal against me ?

You two never seem to want to behave like adults on here.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

St John The Enforcer wrote:

Or.... You know... The opposite. Dragons already back in the fold. Just 3 more and we are all back in the union.

Why does everyone else have to change when there are at least 10 union controlled teams in the league?

The answer to this is:

1) Sensible people can see that the leagues that are the most successful and generate the most income are those that are run by bodies that represent the teams in the league only. It means the teams are in control of their own destiny, income generation and structures. Being run and controlled by organisations whose main job is to concentrate on stadiums and teams that play in other competitions - is far from ideal and devalues the league in ways which have been spoken about at length on this forum recently.

2) The Dragons are a mess. They've barely won a  league match all season. They can't play Gavin Henson because they can't afford his match appearance fees. Their winning ratio is lower than last season. Jackman has argued with players and the fans are angry at him for not picking goal kickers. Yes, Union ownership is working wonders.

1) Sensible people? They are obviously idiots since they fail to grasp the complexity of the issue, Top 14 and AP have a more established history and had a chance to build their brand a lot longer than the Pro14. A league by the way which has been in a constant state of flux since it's foundation which makes it harder to gain huge investment, add in the constant issues created by the RRW who were at war with the WRU, trying to get into England plus the Italians potentially pulling out it makes it difficult to sell the league to sponsors and broadcasters.

2) Yip because a change of ownership should automatically improve things, it's not like things take time or that they have had key players out injured, that Henson put in some poor performances. But they can't afford match fees yet are splashing the cash next season, that makes sense

LordDowlais wrote:marty/Bambam

Why are you making this personal against me ?

You two never seem to want to behave like adults on here.

You really don't get irony do you?

RiscaGame wrote:I’ve not seen one credible source for this Henson rumour. Seems to be a bit of a Gwlad special and one that Phil BB seems happy to push.

I was told personally by a very credible source (that I'm not going to name, sorry)

So you can understand if people don't believe it and treat it as hear say then.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

RiscaGame wrote:I’ve not seen one credible source for this Henson rumour. Seems to be a bit of a Gwlad special and one that Phil BB seems happy to push.

I was told personally by a very credible source (that I'm not going to name, sorry)

So they can't afford his match fees but pick him on the bench for games? Strange

No 7&1/2 wrote:So you can understand if people don't believe it and treat it as hear say then.

Absolutely.

marty2086 wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

RiscaGame wrote:I’ve not seen one credible source for this Henson rumour. Seems to be a bit of a Gwlad special and one that Phil BB seems happy to push.

I was told personally by a very credible source (that I'm not going to name, sorry)

So they can't afford his match fees but pick him on the bench for games? Strange

Did he come on the pitch? Y'know, make an appearance?

RugbyFan100 wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

RiscaGame wrote:I’ve not seen one credible source for this Henson rumour. Seems to be a bit of a Gwlad special and one that Phil BB seems happy to push.

I was told personally by a very credible source (that I'm not going to name, sorry)

So they can't afford his match fees but pick him on the bench for games? Strange

Did he come on the pitch? Y'know, make an appearance?

If they can't afford him they wouldn't risk having to use him, it's not like he publically stated he was dropped for poor performances and has only featured the the Challenge Cup since then or anything

So he won't make an appearance again according to your source. Whys he sticking around if they are doing him.out of money and it's semi public knowledge?

No 7&1/2 wrote:So he won't make an appearance again according to your source.

I don't believe anyone has said such a thing.

Your source said they can't play him.until when then?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Your source said they can't play him.until when then?

I've been told he hasn't been playing recently because the Dragons didn't want to pay the appearance fees. Because they signed him to a contract with huge fees which they now regret. No doubt they'll want him to turn out for the Dragons asap now to quash these rumours.

So it was a choice rather than they couldn't? And now it's leaked it's likely to result in him playing pretty soon.cool.

No 7&1/2 wrote:So it was a choice rather than they couldn't? And now it's leaked it's likely to result in him playing pretty soon.cool.

My thoughts exactly, says they couldn't afford them then it turns out they just didn't want to pay them. Maybe something to do with it being better value him holding tackle bags than playing

No 7&1/2 wrote:So it was a choice rather than they couldn't? And now it's leaked it's likely to result in him playing pretty soon.cool.

pretty much.

cool

He won’t be playing for six weeks, it has been announced. He is injured/Dragons have had their hand forced and had to come up with a cunning story to explain his absences over the next few weeks.

Lol

You know what ?

I absolutely hate the way a certain fraction of this forum always go out of their way to try and prove people wrong. They never want to discuss the topic in hand, they never want to be civil.

This obsession with always trying to trip people up, always trying to be clever, the craving to always be right, it spoils the forum.

All through this thread, I have wanted to talk about the officials, get people opinions, ask what they think we could do to improve, but as always it turns into the mess we have here.

marty, SF, No 7&1/2, not once have any of you added anything constructive to the debate, all you have done is rubbish other peoples opinions, insult or just ignored the point in hand.

At least members like Pot Hale have tried to have a constructive debate, other members just always want to take it down this nit picking road of bickering.

I give up, I really do.

That's not true at all ld. Scroll up and you'll see I've made valid points about Scotland's union hiking outside the box to develop.players and the fact I see this as separate to development of refs. And I also offered an opinion on how I'd like official standards improved by broadening their exposure and giving some fans something to compare to their own officials.

My picking up.on a point that the dragons couldn't play Henson due to money was ok surely as we discovered that wasn't the case. Oh and I don't tend t ignore points or at least not counter them.

The thing is No 7&1/2, there is no need to always try and win the internet, some people have a opinion, it might not be a good one or it might not be 100% accurate, but the way it gets pick apart on here is very tiresome.

Where do you feel.slighted on this? The point I made where the Scottish union were valiantly trying to improve their stock of players, albeit I see it not being successful? The point I made that this is completely separate to developing refs? The point you ignored about wanting a wr funded or at least some help in sharing refs across leagues to improve standards and understanding everywhere?
Or where I questioned whether it was true that the dragons couldn't afford to play Henson which was a misunderstanding and actually they can?

I will accept I picked apart that last point pretty quickly.