The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

First topic message reminder :

Some of the Irish provinces seem to be doing fine.  Munster might be able to pay back a few shillings to Landsdowne HQ this season.  Leinster have finally started sharing. Connacht have survived Mr Grumpy and have managed another Challenge Cup quarter.  Could they make the final?
Ulster need a separate topic to cover all their issues.  Oh - and they have one.  

Italy.  Treviso are now Benetton and improving to the point of it being grudgingly admitted outside of Italy.  Zebre?  See Ulster above.  The FIR continue to fiddle the other unions while Rome burns.  

Scarlets on the other hand continue to see Byrne roam.  And sidestep.  The WRU must be grinning from ear to ear as Scarlets are simply steaming.   Who needs union monies when you can assemble a squad like this?  Top of their conference and finishing top of their pool in front of a packed house to gain a home quarterfinal in the Champions Cup. What more could you ask for?  Possibly a sneaky Welsh cap for Tadgh Beirne but little else to complain about.  If Gatland can harness the Scarlets, a la Leinster and Glasgow, and get Wales moving to the top in the Six Nations, the WRU might need to send a little more love (hard cash) over Llanelli way to encourage them further.  

Dragons got bought by the WRU.  And then hired an Irish coach. And then fixed their pitch.  And then things went so so.  And the jury went out on Jackman.  And then they started losing. A lot.  And then they had lots of announcements about new players for next season. And then they got knocked out of the Challenge Cup.  
And now it’s a wait for another season.  Not sure if the jury has come back in yet but Jackman has a battle on his hands.  

Ospreys continue to plumb new depths and eventually decided to fire their coach after failing in the Champions Cup once again.  Will they be in the Challenge Cup next season?

Cardiff have at least made the knockouts of the Challenge Cup but they’re still batting eyes at the WRU some say.  Will they succumb to the union’s clutches?

All the way down to Port Elizabeth for the new entrants.

The Southern Kings? See Zebre.  X 100.   Massive squad revamp needed and SARU investment.

Cheetahs?   Just when they’d notched another triumph on their league bedpost, came the news that another of their players had been nicked for another SR side. Their top try scorer is leaving too.  They’ve 8 wins in the bag, can they get a few more to make it into the playoffs?  

And finally the Scots.  Cockerill is definitely making inroads and if it doesn’t happen this season, they’ll be making life difficult in 2018/19 for a few of the higher up clubs. Their sassy and classy neighbours look strong prospects for the Championship title with a single loss so far.   Not too long ago, the SRU was making plaintive noises about the costs of running the two clubs and seeking private investors.  Then they went quiet.  Then they announced a profit for the first time in a long while.  And investment in academy is starting to pay off.  And the Test team isn’t doing too shabby either.  SRU CEO, Mark Dodson, says long term objective is to secure external investment to ensure the future of the game.  

We’ve had the first inkling of a change and expected increase in TV revenues for the Championship with EirSport announced as the new broadcaster for games in the Irish territory.  Anayi & Co still have to deliver a substantial increase on previous revenues.  The SARU/SuperSport deal has ensured part of that with a reported 36m six-year agreement.   What will GB deliver?

Private investment and Union control/money.  Will a happy marriage eventually be reached?

LordDowlais wrote:You know what ?

I absolutely hate the way a certain fraction of this forum always go out of their way to try and prove people wrong. They never want to discuss the topic in hand, they never want to be civil.

This obsession with always trying to trip people up, always trying to be clever, the craving to always be right, it spoils the forum.

All through this thread, I have wanted to talk about the officials, get people opinions, ask what they think we could do to improve, but as always it turns into the mess we have here.

marty, SF, No 7&1/2, not once have any of you added anything constructive to the debate, all you have done is rubbish other peoples opinions, insult or just ignored the point in hand.

At least members like Pot Hale have tried to have a constructive debate, other members just always want to take it down this nit picking road of bickering.

I give up, I really do.

Seriously, you are continually whining on here. That is seemingly what you spend most of your time doing. Some self awareness may help you that and actually growing up.

Well lets talk about the point in hand then marty.

What do you think could be done to improve the standard of officiating in our league?

What do you reckon could be done to get more Scottish, Italian and South African officials in our league ?

How do you rate the standard of officiating in our league ?

We can start from that.

A. What do you think could be done to improve the standard of officiating in our league?
B. What do you reckon could be done to get more Scottish, Italian and South African officials in our league ?

I don't know what the answer to A is but what I can say is that avoiding B would probably help

Nice one Pete.

Stop hounding him. Jeez.

LordDowlais wrote:Well lets talk about the point in hand then marty.

What do you think could be done to improve the standard of officiating in our league?

What do you reckon could be done to get more Scottish, Italian and South African officials in our league ?

How do you rate the standard of officiating in our league ?

We can start from that.

So you want to go back over something that has already been covered ad nauseam? And you wonder why you never get anywhere

But lets cover your points anyway

There already structures in place at league and union levels, there are review procedures in place post match, appointments are merit based so good performances are rewarded and as far as Im aware the league has set up workshops and refs work with teams to improve their understanding and performances. It takes time though.

Why just those? The Welsh weren't exactly overrepresented last weekend when it came to referees, only Owens was in the middle. The SARU were stretched this year with their availability, they have the numbers they just need to work out the logistics. The SRU appointed a new referee development officer a few years back so that should bear fruit in time. Unless unions can convince players to become referees it isn't going to happen overnight.

We have some good officials and some pretty inconsistent ones, I don't think we have any awful officials but plenty of young pups still learning the job and with no professional lower tiers to earn their strips then then Pro14 is their training ground

marty2086 wrote:There already structures in place at league and union levels, there are review procedures in place post match, appointments are merit based so good performances are rewarded and as far as Im aware the league has set up workshops and refs work with teams to improve their understanding and performances. It takes time though.

Well we've been at this for over a decade now, and still no improvement, I would like to see the Pro14 be in charge of all the officials.

marty2086 wrote:Why just those? The Welsh weren't exactly overrepresented last weekend when it came to referees, only Owens was in the middle. The SARU were stretched this year with their availability, they have the numbers they just need to work out the logistics. The SRU appointed a new referee development officer a few years back so that should bear fruit in time. Unless unions can convince players to become referees it isn't going to happen overnight.

There are 4 Irish refs, 4 Welsh refs, 2 South African, 1 Scottish and 1 Italian.

https://www.pro14rugby.org/referees/

I do not know what has happened to Deadly Dudley Phillips.

marty2086 wrote:We have some good officials and some pretty inconsistent ones, I don't think we have any awful officials but plenty of young pups still learning the job and with no professional lower tiers to earn their strips then then Pro14 is their training ground

I disagree, Andrew Brace, David Wilkinson, Marius Mitrea, are very poor officials, they are supposed to be our elite one's. I will hold judgement on the South African pair, but after watching Stuart Berry ref Cardiff Blues and Munster on the weekend, I was not impressed.

John Lacey and Nigel Owens are probably the best two, George Clancy is then best of a bad bunch.

I would agree though that there are some good young pups in Ben Whitehouse and Dan Jones.

But we have been at this for over a decade now, and this is all we have to show for it. We need a change in my opinion.

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:Why just those? The Welsh weren't exactly overrepresented last weekend when it came to referees, only Owens was in the middle. The SARU were stretched this year with their availability, they have the numbers they just need to work out the logistics. The SRU appointed a new referee development officer a few years back so that should bear fruit in time. Unless unions can convince players to become referees it isn't going to happen overnight.

There are 4 Irish refs, 4 Welsh refs, 2 South African, 1 Scottish and 1 Italian.

https://www.pro14rugby.org/referees/

I do not know what has happened to Deadly Dudley Phillips.

Might want to work on your maths, there are 5 Irish listed on the website then you have Joy Neville too who isn't there

The SRU started out with two refs last season and Linton disappeared halfway through the season, no idea why.

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:We have some good officials and some pretty inconsistent ones, I don't think we have any awful officials but plenty of young pups still learning the job and with no professional lower tiers to earn their strips then then Pro14 is their training ground

I disagree, Andrew Brace, David Wilkinson, Marius Mitrea, are very poor officials, they are supposed to be our elite one's. I will hold judgement on the South African pair, but after watching Stuart Berry ref Cardiff Blues and Munster on the weekend, I was not impressed.

John Lacey and Nigel Owens are probably the best two, George Clancy is then best of a bad bunch.

I would agree though that there are some good young pups in Ben Whitehouse and Dan Jones.

But we have been at this for over a decade now, and this is all we have to show for it. We need a change in my opinion.

I've seen Brace, Wilkinson and Mitrea have some good games and given they are getting higher profile games from ERCC and WR at times then it seems others agree. So it seems quality is an opinion and not a fact

Out of interest as someone looking in but not knowing he ins and outs how do the Welsh Scottish etc referee development programmes differ currently?

If somebody wants to address me directly then it would be good manners to do so - directly. It is most unpleasant to hear one's good name being dragged through the mud...I mean, dragged through a post directed at another contributor.

I'm here. If somebody thinks I have added nothing constructive to the debate then tell me so...directly.
I am positively livid at such carry on!

LordDowlais wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:Poor referring is across the board and as such the Pro14 is not out of the ordinary

So are we just supposed to except it ?

I would love for the Pro14 to be leading the way in exemplary refereeing standards, having an off day is one thing, but being consistently poor is another.

How can a ref forget to take his cards onto the field with him ? That is amateurism at it's worst. Come on.

Not saying we should accept poor referring at all.
I am pointing out that all leagues have strong and weak referees
I also refute the claim that referees with the same nationality as one of the sides playing is a sign of a poorly run(or biased) league.

It happens for two reasons:
- A over reliance on Welsh and Irish referees due to inadequate numbers from Italy and Scotland
- A desire of the league, rightly in my view, to have the best referees for the most important matches.
That's why Lacey took Scarlets - Leinster last week and why Owens took Ulster - Edinburgh this week.
Those games needed top referees and they got them.

As mentioned before the SH does exactly the same thing

Anyway, to humour people, - even though I've given my honest reading of the Perpetual Whine League (it should be dispensed with and each Nation should find a new League solution within their own borders - I've had my fill of endless guff complaints and moans)

But to humour the people who want to endlessly groan - the numbers seem to suggest that the League requires only 2...only 2 more refs, in order for all factions to have officials that equates with the number of sides they have in the competition?

One more Scot and one more Italian?   Eight long thread pages of utter crap to elucidate that point?  Two more refs and all will be perfect?  Seven years should do it by getting them up to speed.

It’s not fair that the IRFU have planted an Irishman in a Welsh region (Jackman at the Dragons). That means that he will be passing Welsh secrets and insider info to the Irish. How are we meant to compete on a level playing field?! And they’re not even paying for him..... the Dragons are footing his entire wage bill. It’s dis-cuss-ting. And disgraceful. No wonder the Dragons are struggling

To change topic slightly and away feom the same old same old.

With the introduction of Major League Rugby is a US team(s) less likely to join the Pro 12 and was Wild watching the Southern Kings to get an idea of the difficulties of entering a team (maybe German)?

The season is only going to run for a few months, with a few schedule adjustments MLR could run in the summer and the best players could play in an American franchise. It's unlikely but possible, if NBC announce a tv deal for the Pro14 in the next few months Id say the odds improve

I do feel for some fans of the ProWhatever. Other international fans have to put up with the likes of Lacey and Clancy. Doyle (although employed by the RFU) is also appalling, but slightly better than the other two. World Rugby needs to improve matters, especially now that they can make changes as the bias has moved away from Dublin.

More Swiss refs is what's needed. Spot on.

Agreed. Chocolate watches over corruption Fly.

Yep The Irish have skewed the game to suit themselves for decades

The bastards

Swiss refs and Russian TMOs! That should clean us up real good! The Spick'n'Span League!

No 7&1/2 wrote:
Or where I questioned whether it was true that the dragons couldn't afford to play Henson which was  a misunderstanding and actually  they can?

What I typed on here was a fact. And that fact is this - I was told, by a very reliable source, that the Dragons have opted not to to play Gavin Henson in certain matches because of his large appearance fee clause. Due to the nature of where this information came from, I still believe it to be true. It didn't come from "a bloke down the pub".

The Dragons can put out any statement they like about minor hamstring injuries that take 3 months to heal, but that's not going to change the fact that I heard from a very reliable source, that the Dragons didn't want to play Gavin Henson in certain matches because of his large appearance fee clause.

Hope that clears it up for you.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:
Or where I questioned whether it was true that the dragons couldn't afford to play Henson which was  a misunderstanding and actually  they can?

What I typed on here was a fact. And that fact is this -  I was told, by a very reliable source, that the Dragons have opted not to to play Gavin Henson in certain matches because of his large appearance fee clause. Due to the nature of where this information came from, I still believe it to be true. It didn't come from "a bloke down the pub".

The Dragons can put out any statement they like about minor hamstring injuries that take 3 months to heal, but that's not going to change the fact that I heard from  a very reliable source, that the Dragons didn't want to play Gavin Henson in certain matches because of his large appearance fee clause.

Hope that clears it up for you.

You said they couldn't afford it, that's not fact that's a claim you've made based on what you've been told.

The fact is according you and your 'source' they choose not to pay it, that's not the same as not being able to afford it. If you are going to use facts, use facts but don't make false claims and then claim to be factual

marty2086 wrote:

You said they couldn't afford it, that's not fact that's a claim you've made based on what you've been told.

The fact is according you and your 'source' they choose not to pay it, that's not the same as not being able to afford it. If you are going to use facts, use facts but don't make false claims and then claim to be factual

They chose not to pay it because they couldn't afford to. They are leaking money. They've spent a load on players for this season and next, are not getting results and the other regions aren't very happy about it for obvious reasons.

To avoid all of this chat, you can always just read the Dragons injury statement instead.

What a peculiar man Gavin Henson is.  Even more peculiar is a team that signs a contract for his services and one that agrees to a clause that will keep the player out of games because they are unwilling to pay the extra 'appearance fees' - ie, they sign a contract with a clause they have no intention of honouring.

Why couldn't they just have said "Hey Gav, listen...take yourself and your appearance money and go take a hike."?  Why the hell would you hire someone to do a job and then tie one arm behind your back by giving him a clause you knew you'd never honour which would keep him from doing his job?

And IRFU are the problem for The Bizarre Pro14 League?

SecretFly wrote:

And IRFU are the problem for The Bizarre Pro14 League?

This problem has come about as a direct result of Union ownership at the Dragons.

The main problem as it see it is that people seem to be believing this guy and his mate!

RugbyFan100 wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

You said they couldn't afford it, that's not fact that's a claim you've made based on what you've been told.

The fact is according you and your 'source' they choose not to pay it, that's not the same as not being able to afford it. If you are going to use facts, use facts but don't make false claims and then claim to be factual

They chose not to pay it because they couldn't afford to. They are leaking money. They've spent a load on players for this season and next, are not getting results and the other regions aren't very happy about it for obvious reasons.

To avoid all of this chat, you can always just read the Dragons injury statement instead.

Now you are switching the claim again, you said you were told they are choosing not to pay now it's because they can't afford to.

It's also not factual, it's a claim allegedly made to you

RugbyFan100 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

And IRFU are the problem for The Bizarre Pro14 League?

This problem has come about as a direct result of Union ownership at the Dragons.

And how do you figure that?

marty2086 wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

And IRFU are the problem for The Bizarre Pro14 League?

This problem has come about as a direct result of Union ownership at the Dragons.

And how do you figure that?

Because WRU money has been spent on the wrong resources and other people aren't happy about it.

marty2086 wrote:
Now you are switching the claim again, you said you were told they are choosing not to pay now it's because they can't afford to.

Both can be true marty. They are not mutually exclusive.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

And IRFU are the problem for The Bizarre Pro14 League?

This problem has come about as a direct result of Union ownership at the Dragons.

And how do you figure that?

Because WRU money has been spent on the wrong resources and other people aren't happy about it.

The WRU have invested THEIR money, it's their right to do as they please. Anyone who doesn't like it really are just whiners

RugbyFan100 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

And IRFU are the problem for The Bizarre Pro14 League?

This problem has come about as a direct result of Union ownership at the Dragons.

The problem is some bizarre decision made between a team and a contracted player. Now maybe it's real and maybe your contact is telling a 'non-truth'. The problem, if it exists, is a funny one - weird....but funny

RugbyFan100 wrote:

marty2086 wrote:
Now you are switching the claim again, you said you were told they are choosing not to pay now it's because they can't afford to.

Both can be true marty. They are not mutually exclusive.

The facts may be but either you were told one thing or another you don't seem to be consistent in your claims

marty2086 wrote:

The WRU have invested THEIR money, it's their right to do as they please. Anyone who doesn't like it really are just whiners

Not when a participation agreement says otherwise Marty.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

The WRU have invested THEIR money, it's their right to do as they please. Anyone who doesn't like it really are just whiners

Not when a participation agreement says otherwise Marty.

Really and what within it says otherwise?

marty2086 wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

The WRU have invested THEIR money, it's their right to do as they please. Anyone who doesn't like it really are just whiners

Not when a participation agreement says otherwise Marty.

Really and what within it says otherwise?

Briefly, that no one regional entity will have additional WRU resources spent on them other than those agreed on in the PA, unless retrospectively agreed upon with the 4 teams. They agreed to help save the Dragons from going under. But the use of money in things like silly contract clauses has irked the other 3 regions.

So your claim of "The WRU have invested THEIR money, it's their right to do as they please" is wholly incorrect, as laid out in the PA that the 4 signed up to.

But it is WRU money(resources) the three are talking about?

RugbyFan100 wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

The WRU have invested THEIR money, it's their right to do as they please. Anyone who doesn't like it really are just whiners

Not when a participation agreement says otherwise Marty.

Really and what within it says otherwise?

Briefly, that no one regional entity will have additional WRU resources spent on them other than those agreed on in the PA, unless retrospectively agreed upon with the 4 teams. They agreed to help save the Dragons from going under. But the use of money in things like silly contract clauses has irked the other 3 regions.

So your claim of "The WRU have invested THEIR money, it's their right to do as they please" is wholly incorrect, as laid out in the PA that the 4 signed up to.

Have you a copy of the RA at hand?

marty2086 wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

The WRU have invested THEIR money, it's their right to do as they please. Anyone who doesn't like it really are just whiners

Not when a participation agreement says otherwise Marty.

Really and what within it says otherwise?

Briefly, that no one regional entity will have additional WRU resources spent on them other than those agreed on in the PA, unless retrospectively agreed upon with the 4 teams. They agreed to help save the Dragons from going under. But the use of money in things like silly contract clauses has irked the other 3 regions.

So your claim of "The WRU have invested THEIR money, it's their right to do as they please" is wholly incorrect, as laid out in the PA that the 4 signed up to.

Have you a copy of the RA at hand?

Not for you no

Look, if none of you do not believe what rugbyfan is saying, it's easy to find out. Just go onto other Welsh regions forums, and then decide for yourself.

It is no secret here in Wales that everybody outside of Newport are not happy with how the WRU are giving Dragons special treats.

It's easily found.

Just to add though, as suspicious as Hensons injury seams, I have not seen or heard anything other than chat on the web, and at games, that officially states what RF is saying. But he is not the only person saying this around South Wales.

So, what about getting back on track here ?

LordDowlais wrote:Look, if none of you do not believe what rugbyfan is saying, it's easy to find out. Just go onto other Welsh regions forums, and then decide for yourself.

It is no secret here in Wales that everybody outside of Newport are not happy with how the WRU are giving Dragons special treats.

It's easily found.

Just to add though, as suspicious as Hensons injury seams, I have not seen or heard anything other than chat on the web, and at games, that officially states what RF is saying. But he is not the only person saying this around South Wales.

So, what about getting back on track here ?

Don't owners give treats to their own teams?
Is not Dragons now a WRU protectorate?
Why wouldn't they dish out special treats? That's the ownership model RugbyFan himself espouses.
Do the other Regions (private enterprises, we are told) want the same equal treats from a Union that doesn't own them?

SecretFly wrote:Don't owners give treats to their own teams?
Is not Dragons now a WRU protectorate?
Why wouldn't they dish out special treats? That's the ownership model RugbyFan himself espouses.
Do the other Regions (private enterprises, we are told) want the same equal treats from a Union that doesn't own them?

The matter of fact that the WRU stepped in and saved Dragons in the first place when they let other regions go bust should be a big enough treat, never mind all the extra's they are getting. If Dragons were flying high, or even being competitive then at least it would be something, but when people see the WRU chucking money at a sinking ship then how do you expect people to act ?

RugbyFan100 wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

The WRU have invested THEIR money, it's their right to do as they please. Anyone who doesn't like it really are just whiners

Not when a participation agreement says otherwise Marty.

Really and what within it says otherwise?

Briefly, that no one regional entity will have additional WRU resources spent on them other than those agreed on in the PA, unless retrospectively agreed upon with the 4 teams. They agreed to help save the Dragons from going under. But the use of money in things like silly contract clauses has irked the other 3 regions.

So your claim of "The WRU have invested THEIR money, it's their right to do as they please" is wholly incorrect, as laid out in the PA that the 4 signed up to.

Have you a copy of the RA at hand?

Not for you no

So basically your claim is, someone told you something which you yourself have contradicted but you won't say who and the PA you say backs up the rest of your claims you won't share

LordDowlais wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Don't owners give treats to their own teams?
Is not Dragons now a WRU protectorate?
Why wouldn't they dish out special treats? That's the ownership model RugbyFan himself espouses.
Do the other Regions (private enterprises, we are told) want the same equal treats from a Union that doesn't own them?

The matter of fact that the WRU stepped in and saved Dragons in the first place when they let other regions go bust should be a big enough treat, never mind all the extra's they are getting. If Dragons were flying high, or even being competitive then at least it would be something, but when people see the WRU chucking money at a sinking ship then how do you expect people to act ?

You mean like Cardiff begged the WRU to do?

SecretFly wrote:

Don't owners give treats to their own teams?  

As private owned independent businesses they can do what they want as long as it is within the laws of the land and the participation agreement yes.

Why wouldn't they dish out special treats?  That's the ownership model RugbyFan himself espouses.

Basic stuff here - If you can't see how the the organisation owning only 1 of the pro 4 teams it governs is a direct conflict of interest, then there really is no point in going further.

Imagine the English FA owning a part in Liverpool FC. What would other teams in the EPL think of that? But it wouldn't happen would it, as that's an evenly run structure.

Do the other Regions (private enterprises, we are told) want the same equal treats from a Union that doesn't own them?

Equal is the operative word. They want what all 5 parties signed up to. Once it waivers from that then questions deservedly need to be asked.

marty2086 wrote:

So basically your claim is, someone told you something which you yourself have contradicted but you won't say who and the PA you say backs up the rest of your claims you won't share

No, that's not correct.

It doesn't matter how people act (fans of other regions).  
The facts matter.  WRU have ownership rights to Dragons - however that legal stuff is arrived at - ; maybe it has a time limit, I don't know - but for now, they seem to have ownership rights.  
They are going in to Dragons in a way that they are not involved in other Regions.  
Therefore, it is natural - maybe not likeable to disgruntled fans of other regions - but it is Natural that they are going to make Dragons a special case for potential investment.

I'll ask you again, do the other Regions (private enterprises, we are told) want the same equal treats from a Union that doesn't own them?

RugbyFan100 wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

So basically your claim is, someone told you something which you yourself have contradicted but you won't say who and the PA you say backs up the rest of your claims you won't share

No, that's not correct.

No it's spot on

[quote="RugbyFan100"]

SecretFly wrote:



Why wouldn't they dish out special treats?  That's the ownership model RugbyFan himself espouses.

Basic stuff here - If you can't see how the the organisation  owning only 1 of the pro 4 teams it governs is a direct conflict of interest, then there really is no point in going further.

I'm not concerned with a conflict of interest. That is not pertinent to the facts. The fact IS that the WRU have ownership rights over 1 region. It is natural that they will invest more in that region than in the models that use your preferred ownership option - private self made men.

It's not whether you like it or dislike it - it's about admitting to facts as they exist.

Do the other three Regions want the same treats from this entity called the WRU, that is a Union?

SecretFly wrote:

I'll ask you again, do the other Regions (private enterprises, we are told) want the same equal treats from a Union that doesn't own them?

They want what they agreed on. What is happenning is not what was agreed on.