The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

First topic message reminder :

Some of the Irish provinces seem to be doing fine.  Munster might be able to pay back a few shillings to Landsdowne HQ this season.  Leinster have finally started sharing. Connacht have survived Mr Grumpy and have managed another Challenge Cup quarter.  Could they make the final?
Ulster need a separate topic to cover all their issues.  Oh - and they have one.  

Italy.  Treviso are now Benetton and improving to the point of it being grudgingly admitted outside of Italy.  Zebre?  See Ulster above.  The FIR continue to fiddle the other unions while Rome burns.  

Scarlets on the other hand continue to see Byrne roam.  And sidestep.  The WRU must be grinning from ear to ear as Scarlets are simply steaming.   Who needs union monies when you can assemble a squad like this?  Top of their conference and finishing top of their pool in front of a packed house to gain a home quarterfinal in the Champions Cup. What more could you ask for?  Possibly a sneaky Welsh cap for Tadgh Beirne but little else to complain about.  If Gatland can harness the Scarlets, a la Leinster and Glasgow, and get Wales moving to the top in the Six Nations, the WRU might need to send a little more love (hard cash) over Llanelli way to encourage them further.  

Dragons got bought by the WRU.  And then hired an Irish coach. And then fixed their pitch.  And then things went so so.  And the jury went out on Jackman.  And then they started losing. A lot.  And then they had lots of announcements about new players for next season. And then they got knocked out of the Challenge Cup.  
And now it’s a wait for another season.  Not sure if the jury has come back in yet but Jackman has a battle on his hands.  

Ospreys continue to plumb new depths and eventually decided to fire their coach after failing in the Champions Cup once again.  Will they be in the Challenge Cup next season?

Cardiff have at least made the knockouts of the Challenge Cup but they’re still batting eyes at the WRU some say.  Will they succumb to the union’s clutches?

All the way down to Port Elizabeth for the new entrants.

The Southern Kings? See Zebre.  X 100.   Massive squad revamp needed and SARU investment.

Cheetahs?   Just when they’d notched another triumph on their league bedpost, came the news that another of their players had been nicked for another SR side. Their top try scorer is leaving too.  They’ve 8 wins in the bag, can they get a few more to make it into the playoffs?  

And finally the Scots.  Cockerill is definitely making inroads and if it doesn’t happen this season, they’ll be making life difficult in 2018/19 for a few of the higher up clubs. Their sassy and classy neighbours look strong prospects for the Championship title with a single loss so far.   Not too long ago, the SRU was making plaintive noises about the costs of running the two clubs and seeking private investors.  Then they went quiet.  Then they announced a profit for the first time in a long while.  And investment in academy is starting to pay off.  And the Test team isn’t doing too shabby either.  SRU CEO, Mark Dodson, says long term objective is to secure external investment to ensure the future of the game.  

We’ve had the first inkling of a change and expected increase in TV revenues for the Championship with EirSport announced as the new broadcaster for games in the Irish territory.  Anayi & Co still have to deliver a substantial increase on previous revenues.  The SARU/SuperSport deal has ensured part of that with a reported 36m six-year agreement.   What will GB deliver?

Private investment and Union control/money.  Will a happy marriage eventually be reached?

I’ve posted this somewhere before but worth postage nag again I think:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/42150105

“Chairman David Buttress says Dragons signed Wales back-rower Ross Moriarty on a purely regional deal because a national dual contract (NDC) might have made him likelier to join a rival.

Moriarty, 23, will join Dragons from Gloucester at the end of the season.

He rejected an NDC - 60% paid by the Welsh Rugby Union (WRU) and 40% by the region - to accept an offer from the Dragons, majority owned by the WRU.

"Time wasn't on our side," said Buttress.

"Bernard [Jackman, Dragons' head coach] identified Ross as our top target and we didn't have time to go down the NDC route. That may have taken until January and there wasn't a guarantee we would have got him.

"We couldn't take the risk of waiting because we may have missed out on him. We had to act and get Ross in the bag, which I'm delighted happened.

"Our playing budget last year was £3.5m - it hasn't changed. Next year it's going up slightly, driven by two constituent parts. One is the additional broadcast revenue we have from the South Africans joining the Pro14 and the other is from some other commercial deals which has enabled us to invest a bit more than £500,000 more in the playing side going into next season.

"So it's come from our playing salary budget, same as it would any other region. It's as simple and clear as that.

"If you look at the other regions, we're a long way behind on the playing salary budget so am I satisfied with where we currently are? Absolutely not. We need to do a lot of hard work off the pitch because we have to generate the money.

"There's no magic money tree. This is driven from hard work and execution by the commercial team here at Rodney Parade.

"We will have to generate every pound for the additional playing salary budget from investments, sponsorship or commercial revenue, which we will then invest straight into the playing budget to become more competitive."

How the deal was financed.

Signing Moriarty is a major coup for Dragons, who have often been the weakest of the four Welsh regions since the inception of regional rugby in 2003.

However, despite the impressive nature of the acquisition, some had raised questions about the financial structure of the deal.

As the Dragons' majority shareholder is the WRU, there was some confusion as to how the region appeared to be outbidding the WRU's offer of an NDC with a proposition of its own.

Buttress, a businessman whose achievements include co-founding the internet takeaway company Just Eat UK, owns a share of the Dragons having invested what he calls a "low six-figure" sum in the region.

He insisted the deal was "not complicated" and sought to explain how it worked in accordance with the Dragons' ownership model.

"Let me make it crystal clear, if a company is owned with shareholders, in our case majority owned by the WRU, we have an obligation to those shareholders," said Buttress.

"That said, the club is run by the board of directors - two of which are from the WRU (Steve Phillips and Ian Jeffery) and two of which are independent (Buttress and David Reynolds) - then all our squad decisions are made by Bernard Jackman.

"That's no different to the last 20 years of my business life where as a public company I had many, many shareholders that owned Just Eat. They didn't run Just Eat, myself and the management team did.

"I see a lot of misinformed comment around ownership, which does not mean operational management.

"It's very different and I would add that that's a very positive thing for Welsh rugby because the last thing the WRU should be doing is running any region. It's good for them to have a stake, and I can see the benefit here of the WRU.

"Let's be blunt, without them this region would not exist. Congratulations to them for allowing the region to have a second chance, but in terms of how the region is managed and operated, it's the board's job to operate the company on a day to day basis.

"In that sense it's the same as any other organisation regionally, it's just that our [major] shareholder happens to be the WRU.

"People talk about transparency, I think if anything the Dragons is currently the most transparent region in Wales given the level of scrutiny.

"We are trying to engage with stakeholders, whether it social media or other ways. We will continue to do that because there is nothing to hide here, we are saying exactly what we are doing."

"Catching up" with other regions

Moriarty, who has 17 caps, was keen to return to Wales next season following a change in the WRU's selection policy that means players taking up new contracts with clubs outside of Wales must have won 60 caps to be eligible to play for their country.

The back-rower was exempt for this season because of his existing contract with Gloucester, but would have become ineligible to play for Warren Gatland's side if he signed a new deal with the Cherry and Whites - or any other club outside Wales.

George North has also decided to return to Wales on a dual contract, although it is not yet known which of the four Welsh regions the British and Irish Lion will join.

Jackman has confirmed the Dragons' interest in North and Buttress hopes Moriarty's arrival will attract more high-profile signings and boost the region commercially as well.

"It attracts other talented players and by doing that it creates a network effect of success. Talented people want to be with talented people," Buttress added.

"If we can bring in talented players that drives more success, which drives more sponsorship, which drives more commercial engagement, which drives more supporters, which drives more hospitality.

"Is it exciting Ross is coming? Yeah, of course. But I look at it from a perspective of it's done, let's move on. We need to keep going.

"There's no secret about it, we're behind. The Dragons' intention is not to stay behind and we need to do a lot of hard work to catch up with the other regions."

That sounds about right.  

The player salary budget in Leinster is about €6m. (£5.3m). (10 cost 700k. 10 cost 1.2m. 10 cost 1.75m, 5 cost 1m, 3 cost 1.3m.). Sexton, McGrath, Healy, Furlong, Toner, Henshaw and Kearney are paid by IRFU on Category A contracts so not in Leinster’s budget per se.

PhilBB wrote:

Brendan wrote:Fine Phil I guess we will have to see if off field problems will affect on field results in the coming years as they have Connacht, Treviso, Edinburgh  etc.

By your same logic (about Leinster) Scarlet most spend tons on their players with all the international they have and Glasgow the same even if all three teams have a lot of academy players who have gone on to be stars and enjoy the environment so may be on less money

What "off field problems" do you think exist?

Scarlets wage bill for the year up to June 2017 was £7.524m for 186 staff.

The idea the "stars" will be on less money is touching, but ultimately romantic nonsense. The SRU spent £25m on their professional rugby set up in the same year so you can be sure the internationals in Glasgow aren't on bread and water. The equivalent cost the IRFU €50m.

So you can do the maths, as they say, to work out far more gets spent in Ireland.

Of course far more is spent on the provinces, why is this even debated? When the scarlets et all pull in a shirt sponsorship deal worth 6+ million euro (like leinster with BOI) then maybe they could compete wage wise.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

Brendan wrote:Fine Phil I guess we will have to see if off field problems will affect on field results in the coming years as they have Connacht, Treviso, Edinburgh  etc.

By your same logic (about Leinster) Scarlet most spend tons on their players with all the international they have and Glasgow the same even if all three teams have a lot of academy players who have gone on to be stars and enjoy the environment so may be on less money

What "off field problems" do you think exist?

Scarlets wage bill for the year up to June 2017 was £7.524m for 186 staff.

The idea the "stars" will be on less money is touching, but ultimately romantic nonsense. The SRU spent £25m on their professional rugby set up in the same year so you can be sure the internationals in Glasgow aren't on bread and water. The equivalent cost the IRFU €50m.

So you can do the maths, as they say, to work out far more gets spent in Ireland.

Of course far more is spent on the provinces, why is this even debated? When the scarlets et all pull in a shirt sponsorship deal worth 6+ million euro (like leinster with BOI) then maybe they could compete wage wise.

It’s being debated because for years we’ve been told that the Welsh regions are underperforming in comparison to the Irish provinces. When pointed out that the salary spend/squad budget is more in Ireland than in Wales and that is one of the reasons behind the relative underperformance, we’ve been told, repeatedly, that salary spend difference is boll**ks, that they all get about the same! And then somehow just pointing out a difference gets turned into accusations of hatred towards the Irish, which actually is boll**ks, and the threads break down and get locked.

I wholeheartedly agree that a big shirt sponsor would help swell the squad budgets for the Welsh regions. Yes please, sign us up. But more than that, it’s fantastic that an Irish poster acknowledges that there is a difference in the playing budgets.

The Oracle wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

Brendan wrote:Fine Phil I guess we will have to see if off field problems will affect on field results in the coming years as they have Connacht, Treviso, Edinburgh  etc.

By your same logic (about Leinster) Scarlet most spend tons on their players with all the international they have and Glasgow the same even if all three teams have a lot of academy players who have gone on to be stars and enjoy the environment so may be on less money

What "off field problems" do you think exist?

Scarlets wage bill for the year up to June 2017 was £7.524m for 186 staff.

The idea the "stars" will be on less money is touching, but ultimately romantic nonsense. The SRU spent £25m on their professional rugby set up in the same year so you can be sure the internationals in Glasgow aren't on bread and water. The equivalent cost the IRFU €50m.

So you can do the maths, as they say, to work out far more gets spent in Ireland.

Of course far more is spent on the provinces, why is this even debated? When the scarlets et all pull in a shirt sponsorship deal worth 6+ million euro (like leinster with BOI) then maybe they could compete wage wise.

It’s being debated because for years we’ve been told that the Welsh regions are underperforming in comparison to the Irish provinces. When pointed out that the salary spend/squad budget is more in Ireland than in Wales and that is one of the reasons behind the relative underperformance, we’ve been told, repeatedly, that salary spend difference is boll**ks, that they all get about the same! And then somehow just pointing out a difference gets turned into accusations of hatred towards the Irish, which actually is boll**ks, and the threads break down and get locked.

I wholeheartedly agree that a big shirt sponsor would help swell the squad budgets for the Welsh regions. Yes please, sign us up. But more than that, it’s fantastic that an Irish poster acknowledges that there is a difference in the playing budgets.

Of course there is a difference, Oracle. The IRFU contributes more money to the provinces and has 15 players on central contracts - that’s well established. They receive about €21/22m excluding the central contracts. And the provinces generate about 47% of that through competition income.

Pot Hale wrote:

The Oracle wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

Brendan wrote:Fine Phil I guess we will have to see if off field problems will affect on field results in the coming years as they have Connacht, Treviso, Edinburgh  etc.

By your same logic (about Leinster) Scarlet most spend tons on their players with all the international they have and Glasgow the same even if all three teams have a lot of academy players who have gone on to be stars and enjoy the environment so may be on less money

What "off field problems" do you think exist?

Scarlets wage bill for the year up to June 2017 was £7.524m for 186 staff.

The idea the "stars" will be on less money is touching, but ultimately romantic nonsense. The SRU spent £25m on their professional rugby set up in the same year so you can be sure the internationals in Glasgow aren't on bread and water. The equivalent cost the IRFU €50m.

So you can do the maths, as they say, to work out far more gets spent in Ireland.

Of course far more is spent on the provinces, why is this even debated? When the scarlets et all pull in a shirt sponsorship deal worth 6+ million euro (like leinster with BOI) then maybe they could compete wage wise.

It’s being debated because for years we’ve been told that the Welsh regions are underperforming in comparison to the Irish provinces. When pointed out that the salary spend/squad budget is more in Ireland than in Wales and that is one of the reasons behind the relative underperformance, we’ve been told, repeatedly, that salary spend difference is boll**ks, that they all get about the same! And then somehow just pointing out a difference gets turned into accusations of hatred towards the Irish, which actually is boll**ks, and the threads break down and get locked.

I wholeheartedly agree that a big shirt sponsor would help swell the squad budgets for the Welsh regions. Yes please, sign us up. But more than that, it’s fantastic that an Irish poster acknowledges that there is a difference in the playing budgets.

Of course there is a difference, Oracle.  The IRFU contributes more money to the provinces and has 15 players on central contracts - that’s well established.  They receive about €21/22m excluding the central contracts.   And the provinces generate about 47% of that through competition income.  

Yes, we know. Been saying it for years.

The Oracle wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

Brendan wrote:Fine Phil I guess we will have to see if off field problems will affect on field results in the coming years as they have Connacht, Treviso, Edinburgh  etc.

By your same logic (about Leinster) Scarlet most spend tons on their players with all the international they have and Glasgow the same even if all three teams have a lot of academy players who have gone on to be stars and enjoy the environment so may be on less money

What "off field problems" do you think exist?

Scarlets wage bill for the year up to June 2017 was £7.524m for 186 staff.

The idea the "stars" will be on less money is touching, but ultimately romantic nonsense. The SRU spent £25m on their professional rugby set up in the same year so you can be sure the internationals in Glasgow aren't on bread and water. The equivalent cost the IRFU €50m.

So you can do the maths, as they say, to work out far more gets spent in Ireland.

Of course far more is spent on the provinces, why is this even debated? When the scarlets et all pull in a shirt sponsorship deal worth 6+ million euro (like leinster with BOI) then maybe they could compete wage wise.

It’s being debated because for years we’ve been told that the Welsh regions are underperforming in comparison to the Irish provinces. When pointed out that the salary spend/squad budget is more in Ireland than in Wales and that is one of the reasons behind the relative underperformance, we’ve been told, repeatedly, that salary spend difference is boll**ks, that they all get about the same! And then somehow just pointing out a difference gets turned into accusations of hatred towards the Irish, which actually is boll**ks, and the threads break down and get locked.

I wholeheartedly agree that a big shirt sponsor would help swell the squad budgets for the Welsh regions. Yes please, sign us up. But more than that, it’s fantastic that an Irish poster acknowledges that there is a difference in the playing budgets.

The regions have always been competitive in the league but have underperformed time and time again in Europe (until the scarlets this year). Even the great Osprey teams that won two leagues in Leinsters back yard couldn't make a dent in Europe unfortunately. I always found that strange.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

The Oracle wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

Brendan wrote:Fine Phil I guess we will have to see if off field problems will affect on field results in the coming years as they have Connacht, Treviso, Edinburgh  etc.

By your same logic (about Leinster) Scarlet most spend tons on their players with all the international they have and Glasgow the same even if all three teams have a lot of academy players who have gone on to be stars and enjoy the environment so may be on less money

What "off field problems" do you think exist?

Scarlets wage bill for the year up to June 2017 was £7.524m for 186 staff.

The idea the "stars" will be on less money is touching, but ultimately romantic nonsense. The SRU spent £25m on their professional rugby set up in the same year so you can be sure the internationals in Glasgow aren't on bread and water. The equivalent cost the IRFU €50m.

So you can do the maths, as they say, to work out far more gets spent in Ireland.

Of course far more is spent on the provinces, why is this even debated? When the scarlets et all pull in a shirt sponsorship deal worth 6+ million euro (like leinster with BOI) then maybe they could compete wage wise.

It’s being debated because for years we’ve been told that the Welsh regions are underperforming in comparison to the Irish provinces. When pointed out that the salary spend/squad budget is more in Ireland than in Wales and that is one of the reasons behind the relative underperformance, we’ve been told, repeatedly, that salary spend difference is boll**ks, that they all get about the same! And then somehow just pointing out a difference gets turned into accusations of hatred towards the Irish, which actually is boll**ks, and the threads break down and get locked.

I wholeheartedly agree that a big shirt sponsor would help swell the squad budgets for the Welsh regions. Yes please, sign us up. But more than that, it’s fantastic that an Irish poster acknowledges that there is a difference in the playing budgets.

The regions have always been competitive in the league but have underperformed time and time again in Europe (until the scarlets this year). Even the great Osprey teams that won two leagues in Leinsters back yard couldn't make a dent in Europe unfortunately. I always found that strange.

Surely there’s a simple reason for that - Europe is harder than the Celtic League/Pro12/14?! Seems obvious! Munster and Leinster have ‘made a dent’ because they’ve been better than then Welsh teams who played in the same Euro comps over the years and had a more expensive squad. That’s why they’ve made more of a dent. Or to look at it another way, at the other end of the scale the Dragons, who have a squad budget of just over £3m this year have made even less of a dent and barely won a game (when in the top euro comp).

I don’t find it strange, I find it correlates quite well with squad budget.

Again, for clarity this is not an anti-Irish rant my me! I am not crying foul at some sort of injustice (I’ll save that for LD and Phil ). I’m just pointing out differences. The challenge for the Welsh regions, as always, is to try to close the gap (in squad spend) and cancel out the differences. Then we might be able to make a dent in Europe more regularly.

The Oracle wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

The Oracle wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

Brendan wrote:Fine Phil I guess we will have to see if off field problems will affect on field results in the coming years as they have Connacht, Treviso, Edinburgh  etc.

By your same logic (about Leinster) Scarlet most spend tons on their players with all the international they have and Glasgow the same even if all three teams have a lot of academy players who have gone on to be stars and enjoy the environment so may be on less money

What "off field problems" do you think exist?

Scarlets wage bill for the year up to June 2017 was £7.524m for 186 staff.

The idea the "stars" will be on less money is touching, but ultimately romantic nonsense. The SRU spent £25m on their professional rugby set up in the same year so you can be sure the internationals in Glasgow aren't on bread and water. The equivalent cost the IRFU €50m.

So you can do the maths, as they say, to work out far more gets spent in Ireland.

Of course far more is spent on the provinces, why is this even debated? When the scarlets et all pull in a shirt sponsorship deal worth 6+ million euro (like leinster with BOI) then maybe they could compete wage wise.

It’s being debated because for years we’ve been told that the Welsh regions are underperforming in comparison to the Irish provinces. When pointed out that the salary spend/squad budget is more in Ireland than in Wales and that is one of the reasons behind the relative underperformance, we’ve been told, repeatedly, that salary spend difference is boll**ks, that they all get about the same! And then somehow just pointing out a difference gets turned into accusations of hatred towards the Irish, which actually is boll**ks, and the threads break down and get locked.

I wholeheartedly agree that a big shirt sponsor would help swell the squad budgets for the Welsh regions. Yes please, sign us up. But more than that, it’s fantastic that an Irish poster acknowledges that there is a difference in the playing budgets.

The regions have always been competitive in the league but have underperformed time and time again in Europe (until the scarlets this year). Even the great Osprey teams that won two leagues in Leinsters back yard couldn't make a dent in Europe unfortunately. I always found that strange.

Surely there’s a simple reason for that - Europe is harder than the Celtic League/Pro12/14?! Seems obvious! Munster and Leinster have ‘made a dent’ because they’ve been better than then Welsh teams who played in the same Euro comps over the years and had a more expensive squad. That’s why they’ve made more of a dent. Or to look at it another way, at the other end of the scale the Dragons, who have a squad budget of just over £3m this year have made even less of a dent and barely won a game (when in the top euro comp).

I don’t find it strange, I find it correlates quite well with squad budget.

Again, for clarity this is not an anti-Irish rant my me! I am not crying foul at some sort of injustice (I’ll save that for LD and Phil ). I’m just pointing out differences. The challenge for the Welsh regions, as always, is to try to close the gap (in squad spend) and cancel out the differences. Then we might be able to make a dent in Europe more regularly.

Do you think the new RSA will make a difference in that regard?

The Oracle wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

The Oracle wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

Brendan wrote:Fine Phil I guess we will have to see if off field problems will affect on field results in the coming years as they have Connacht, Treviso, Edinburgh  etc.

By your same logic (about Leinster) Scarlet most spend tons on their players with all the international they have and Glasgow the same even if all three teams have a lot of academy players who have gone on to be stars and enjoy the environment so may be on less money

What "off field problems" do you think exist?

Scarlets wage bill for the year up to June 2017 was £7.524m for 186 staff.

The idea the "stars" will be on less money is touching, but ultimately romantic nonsense. The SRU spent £25m on their professional rugby set up in the same year so you can be sure the internationals in Glasgow aren't on bread and water. The equivalent cost the IRFU €50m.

So you can do the maths, as they say, to work out far more gets spent in Ireland.

Of course far more is spent on the provinces, why is this even debated? When the scarlets et all pull in a shirt sponsorship deal worth 6+ million euro (like leinster with BOI) then maybe they could compete wage wise.

It’s being debated because for years we’ve been told that the Welsh regions are underperforming in comparison to the Irish provinces. When pointed out that the salary spend/squad budget is more in Ireland than in Wales and that is one of the reasons behind the relative underperformance, we’ve been told, repeatedly, that salary spend difference is boll**ks, that they all get about the same! And then somehow just pointing out a difference gets turned into accusations of hatred towards the Irish, which actually is boll**ks, and the threads break down and get locked.

I wholeheartedly agree that a big shirt sponsor would help swell the squad budgets for the Welsh regions. Yes please, sign us up. But more than that, it’s fantastic that an Irish poster acknowledges that there is a difference in the playing budgets.

The regions have always been competitive in the league but have underperformed time and time again in Europe (until the scarlets this year). Even the great Osprey teams that won two leagues in Leinsters back yard couldn't make a dent in Europe unfortunately. I always found that strange.

Surely there’s a simple reason for that - Europe is harder than the Celtic League/Pro12/14?! Seems obvious! Munster and Leinster have ‘made a dent’ because they’ve been better than then Welsh teams who played in the same Euro comps over the years and had a more expensive squad. That’s why they’ve made more of a dent. Or to look at it another way, at the other end of the scale the Dragons, who have a squad budget of just over £3m this year have made even less of a dent and barely won a game (when in the top euro comp).

I don’t find it strange, I find it correlates quite well with squad budget.

Again, for clarity this is not an anti-Irish rant my me! I am not crying foul at some sort of injustice (I’ll save that for LD and Phil ). I’m just pointing out differences. The challenge for the Welsh regions, as always, is to try to close the gap (in squad spend) and cancel out the differences. Then we might be able to make a dent in Europe more regularly.

I wasn't comparing Europe to the pro14? You were talking about the region's competitiveness...Anyway sorry but the Ospreys have had numerous great squads (and expensive ones like the galacticos era) over the years and have had packs that could compete with anyone on paper. There has clearly been some sort of mental block with the Welsh region's in Europe for whatever reason. If it was just about "expensive squads" why are Toulouse (40 million Euro spent on squad) being humiliated in Europe yearly since 2012. You can't just expect to lose to somebody who spends more money than you. There are good players in Wales but they need good coaches such as Pivac.

Pot Hale wrote:


Do you think the new RSA will make a difference in that regard?

I really do not know. In the past it always felt like the WRU were at war with the clubs/regions and did the bare minimum to support them. And I’m sure the clubs played their part in the frosty relationship too. But in recent years they seem to be moving to a greater level of support with the RSA and the funding for player access, NDCs, investing in the Dragons to keep them from going under, etc. I can’t call it. I can’t remember the figures but I remember reading that the WRU doesn’t ‘give’ the regions that much really over and above what they would get anyway (I.e. TV and competition monies which goes to the clubs via the WRU; player access monies - Gatland wants them outside the window so it’s only fair the clubs are compensated. A similar arrangement is in place in England I believe). So you could argue that the WRU could contribute a bit more. Is anyone able to dredge up the figures for the amount they send to the regions minus the TV money, competition money (if different) and the money for player access (whatever it’s called)?

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
I wasn't comparing Europe to the pro14? You were talking about the region's competitiveness...Anyway sorry but the Ospreys have had numerous great squads (and expensive ones like the galacticos era) over the years and have had packs that could compete with anyone on paper. There has clearly been some sort of mental block with the Welsh region's in Europe for whatever reason. If it was just about "expensive squads" why are Toulouse (40 million Euro spent on squad) being humiliated in Europe yearly since 2012. You can't just expect to lose to somebody who spends more money than you. There are good players in Wales but they need good coaches such as Pivac.

You said the regions were competitive in the Pro14 but not in Europe, and that you found it strange! I’m just saying that Europe is much more difficult than the Pro14. And rightly so - Europe (HC/Champions Cup) is meant to be the best of the best, so of course teams would find it more difficult. You’re adding in the best of the French and English leagues and taking out the lower teams of the Pro14.

On your second point, you’ll always find the exception the the rule whereby a cheapish squad does better than more expensive opposition - e.g. Scarlets currently. But look at the sides at the business end of the HC/Champions cup the last few years. Saracens, Racing, Clermont, Toulon, Leinster. Where’s the teams with the cheaper squads?! Where’s Glasgow? Ulster? Benetton? Are they underperforming or just performing in line with budget? Again, this is just my opinion and I haven’t crunched the numbers but I get the impression that those with bigger budgets get further (on average) in the top comps in Europe than those with smaller budgets. So, in my opinion, budget does matter. But I agree that coaching plays a part too. If I coached Toulon I expect they’d be rubbish in no time, regardless of the squad spend!

With success of the Scarlets this year I hope whoever wins the Pro14 each year will be disappointed to not make the semis of the Champions Cup

Blues and Scarlets have made the semis but Ospreys seemed to always struggle just to make the quarters

The Oracle wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
I wasn't comparing Europe to the pro14? You were talking about the region's competitiveness...Anyway sorry but the Ospreys have had numerous great squads (and expensive ones like the galacticos era) over the years and have had packs that could compete with anyone on paper. There has clearly been some sort of mental block with the Welsh region's in Europe for whatever reason. If it was just about "expensive squads" why are Toulouse (40 million Euro spent on squad) being humiliated in Europe yearly since 2012. You can't just expect to lose to somebody who spends more money than you. There are good players in Wales but they need good coaches such as Pivac.

You said the regions were competitive in the Pro14 but not in Europe, and that you found it strange! I’m just saying that Europe is much more difficult than the Pro14. And rightly so - Europe (HC/Champions Cup) is meant to be the best of the best, so of course teams would find it more difficult. You’re adding in the best of the French and English leagues and taking out the lower teams of the Pro14.

On your second point, you’ll always find the exception the the rule whereby a cheapish squad does better than more expensive opposition - e.g. Scarlets currently. But look at the sides at the business end of the HC/Champions cup the last few years. Saracens, Racing, Clermont, Toulon, Leinster. Where’s the teams with the cheaper squads?! Where’s Glasgow? Ulster? Benetton? Are they underperforming or just performing in line with budget? Again, this is just my opinion and I haven’t crunched the numbers but I get the impression that those with bigger budgets get further (on average) in the top comps in Europe than those with smaller budgets. So, in my opinion, budget does matter. But I agree that coaching plays a part too. If I coached Toulon I expect they’d be rubbish in no time, regardless of the squad spend!

I said I found it strange that the Ospreys teams that won two league titles in Leinsters back yard couldn't cut it in Europe. I'm not saying the regions should be winning the European comp but their lack of represention, even in the QFs is not acceptable to me, even when talking about the each squads budget. Perhaps this defeatist attitude within the Welsh region's is why they struggle.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

The Oracle wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
I wasn't comparing Europe to the pro14? You were talking about the region's competitiveness...Anyway sorry but the Ospreys have had numerous great squads (and expensive ones like the galacticos era) over the years and have had packs that could compete with anyone on paper. There has clearly been some sort of mental block with the Welsh region's in Europe for whatever reason. If it was just about "expensive squads" why are Toulouse (40 million Euro spent on squad) being humiliated in Europe yearly since 2012. You can't just expect to lose to somebody who spends more money than you. There are good players in Wales but they need good coaches such as Pivac.

You said the regions were competitive in the Pro14 but not in Europe, and that you found it strange! I’m just saying that Europe is much more difficult than the Pro14. And rightly so - Europe (HC/Champions Cup) is meant to be the best of the best, so of course teams would find it more difficult. You’re adding in the best of the French and English leagues and taking out the lower teams of the Pro14.

On your second point, you’ll always find the exception the the rule whereby a cheapish squad does better than more expensive opposition - e.g. Scarlets currently. But look at the sides at the business end of the HC/Champions cup the last few years. Saracens, Racing, Clermont, Toulon, Leinster. Where’s the teams with the cheaper squads?! Where’s Glasgow? Ulster? Benetton? Are they underperforming or just performing in line with budget? Again, this is just my opinion and I haven’t crunched the numbers but I get the impression that those with bigger budgets get further (on average) in the top comps in Europe than those with smaller budgets. So, in my opinion, budget does matter. But I agree that coaching plays a part too. If I coached Toulon I expect they’d be rubbish in no time, regardless of the squad spend!

I said I found it strange that the Ospreys teams that won two league titles in Leinsters back yard couldn't cut it in Europe. I'm not saying the regions should be winning the European comp but their lack of represention, even in the QFs is not acceptable to me, even when talking about the each squads budget. Perhaps this defeatist attitude within the Welsh region's is why they struggle.

Defeatist? Really? Who says the regions have a defeatist attitude? Seems more like a bit of a swipe because we have differing opinions? Cool

The Oracle wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

The Oracle wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
I wasn't comparing Europe to the pro14? You were talking about the region's competitiveness...Anyway sorry but the Ospreys have had numerous great squads (and expensive ones like the galacticos era) over the years and have had packs that could compete with anyone on paper. There has clearly been some sort of mental block with the Welsh region's in Europe for whatever reason. If it was just about "expensive squads" why are Toulouse (40 million Euro spent on squad) being humiliated in Europe yearly since 2012. You can't just expect to lose to somebody who spends more money than you. There are good players in Wales but they need good coaches such as Pivac.

You said the regions were competitive in the Pro14 but not in Europe, and that you found it strange! I’m just saying that Europe is much more difficult than the Pro14. And rightly so - Europe (HC/Champions Cup) is meant to be the best of the best, so of course teams would find it more difficult. You’re adding in the best of the French and English leagues and taking out the lower teams of the Pro14.

On your second point, you’ll always find the exception the the rule whereby a cheapish squad does better than more expensive opposition - e.g. Scarlets currently. But look at the sides at the business end of the HC/Champions cup the last few years. Saracens, Racing, Clermont, Toulon, Leinster. Where’s the teams with the cheaper squads?! Where’s Glasgow? Ulster? Benetton? Are they underperforming or just performing in line with budget? Again, this is just my opinion and I haven’t crunched the numbers but I get the impression that those with bigger budgets get further (on average) in the top comps in Europe than those with smaller budgets. So, in my opinion, budget does matter. But I agree that coaching plays a part too. If I coached Toulon I expect they’d be rubbish in no time, regardless of the squad spend!

I said I found it strange that the Ospreys teams that won two league titles in Leinsters back yard couldn't cut it in Europe. I'm not saying the regions should be winning the European comp but their lack of represention, even in the QFs is not acceptable to me, even when talking about the each squads budget. Perhaps this defeatist attitude within the Welsh region's is why they struggle.

Defeatist? Really? Who says the regions have a defeatist attitude? Seems more like a bit of a swipe because we have differing opinions? Cool

Agreed.

only skimmed thru this thread but this ".

The SRU spent £25m on their professional rugby set up in the same year

is nonsense. the two scots teams have a total budget for playing and non playing staff and also paying for grounds and travel of around 14 million - much the same as the welsh teams have for players -

The Oracle wrote:
Well the WRU cleared the debts and loans. So that’s freed up more money. The competition money, tv money, etc. I always felt was being channeled into other things such as Newport RFC plus the huge spend each season trying to sort the pitch out. Now that they are officially separate entities the full amount of funding channeled via the WRU as part of the RSA should be going entirely to the Dragons, and should now be spent on what it’s meant to be spent on. The regions are meant to have a minimum salary/squad spend, if memory serves, and the Dragons have reportedly been spending under it for the last few years (the opposite issue to what the likes of Saracens have been accused of).  So it suggests the money was being used elsewhere.

We’re also getting rid of a lot of players. Deadwood, if you will. So that is going to free up a lot of budget.

So clearing debts and sorting the pitch could be seen as bankrolling I guess. However, I see it more as buying into the Dragons. They couldn’t have expected to get it free. The money they paid to buy them, or a share of them, will now allow the Dragons (hopefully) a bit more freedom and to reach the minimum squad spend expected of them. But the WRU won’t be putting in extra funding going forward over and above what they do at the other regions. Unless of course the new RSA negotiated soon has some agreement that sees them getting more funding. Can’t see the others going for that though!

If you had looked at the accounts, you wouldn't be making claims about Newport RFC or channeling funding. It's all there in black and white.

The wage bill for 239 staff (101 players, 138 other) was £5.4m up to June 2016. The servicing of debts in that financial year amounted to £47,665 - so hardly a fortune.

Who, on the list of players being released, is a higher earner?

Pot Hale wrote:That sounds about right.  

The player salary budget in Leinster is about €6m. (£5.3m). (10 cost 700k. 10 cost 1.2m. 10 cost 1.75m, 5 cost 1m, 3 cost 1.3m.). Sexton, McGrath, Healy, Furlong, Toner, Henshaw and Kearney are paid by IRFU on Category A contracts so not in Leinster’s budget per se.

The salary spend is closer to €9m

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
Of course far more is spent on the provinces, why is this even debated? When the scarlets et all pull in a shirt sponsorship deal worth 6+ million euro (like leinster with BOI) then maybe they could compete wage wise.

That's not the full story, though, is it? A portion of that is ring fenced for other uses and the term is over 5 years.

But, undoubtedly, Leinster are a massive cash cow. Imagine how much better they'd be if they were cut free from the shackles of IRFU ownership. They wouldn't get smashed by Connacht and beaten by Benetton, that's for sure.

Pot Hale wrote:
Of course there is a difference, Oracle.  The IRFU contributes more money to the provinces and has 15 players on central contracts - that’s well established.  They receive about €21/22m excluding the central contracts.   And the provinces generate about 47% of that through competition income.  

Where are you getting the €21m from and how does it tie in with over €40m spent on the pro game?

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
I wasn't comparing Europe to the pro14? You were talking about the region's competitiveness...Anyway sorry but the Ospreys have had numerous great squads (and expensive ones like the galacticos era) over the years and have had packs that could compete with anyone on paper. There has clearly been some sort of mental block with the Welsh region's in Europe for whatever reason. If it was just about "expensive squads" why are Toulouse (40 million Euro spent on squad) being humiliated in Europe yearly since 2012. You can't just expect to lose to somebody who spends more money than you. There are good players in Wales but they need good coaches such as Pivac.

There's a salary cap in France of just over €10m per year. Whoever told you €40m was being spent on the squad was filling your head with pure nonsense.

When Munster and Leinster were winning in Europe, the IRFU was spending more than the salary caps in England and France.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
I said I found it strange that the Ospreys teams that won two league titles in Leinsters back yard couldn't cut it in Europe. I'm not saying the regions should be winning the European comp but their lack of represention, even in the QFs is not acceptable to me, even when talking about the each squads budget. Perhaps this defeatist attitude within the Welsh region's is why they struggle.

If it isn't acceptable to you that teams with budgets ranked 35-40 in Europe don't make the top 8, may I suggest that you reset your values?

TJ wrote:only skimmed thru this thread but this ".

The SRU spent £25m on their professional rugby set up in the same year

is nonsense.  the two scots teams have a total budget for playing and non playing staff and also paying for grounds and travel of around 14 million - much the same as the welsh teams have for players -

If you think it's nonsense then take it up with the SRU as that is how they worded it in their Annual Report.

Where is your £14m figure from?

PhilBB wrote:

TJ wrote:only skimmed thru this thread but this ".

The SRU spent £25m on their professional rugby set up in the same year

is nonsense.  the two scots teams have a total budget for playing and non playing staff and also paying for grounds and travel of around 14 million - much the same as the welsh teams have for players -

If you think it's nonsense then take it up with the SRU as that is how they worded it in their Annual Report.

Where is your £14m figure from?

Is professional all money to players, staff, refs (with all there refs that could be a substantial amount ) at all levels or is it just the non-international, non-developments cost and fees on players/staff

Great final round of matches. Watch Blues v Ospreys (flicked to Munster v Ulster when downtime) and Edinburgh v Glasgow.

Lots of tight competitive games with a good bite. Leinster for the second time in a short space of time see that if you aren't putting out close to your strongest team you will struggle.

Was nice to see John Muldoon score a conversion so he could score on his final game. Nice gensture

Brendan wrote:

Is professional all money to players, staff, refs (with all there refs that could be a substantial amount ) at all levels or is it just the non-international, non-developments cost and fees on players/staff

http://www.scottishrugby.org/sites/default/files/editor/images/srar_1617_lores3.pdf

All there for you, Brendan.

So PRO14 have announced their UK TV deal with all 152 games available on Premier Sports and 21 games on FreeSport for 99 quid. A good deal - but no word rumour on the value of it yet. A separate deal with native language broadcasters - S4C and BBC Alba is still being worked out.

The deal for ROI will be announced shortly. And the international rights deal for other territories outside of the PRO14 member countries.

Pot Hale wrote:So PRO14 have announced their UK TV deal with all 152 games available on Premier Sports and 21 games on FreeSport for 99 quid. A good deal - but no word rumour on the value of it yet.  A separate deal with native language broadcasters - S4C and BBC Alba is still being worked out.

The deal for ROI will be announced shortly.  And the international rights deal for other territories outside of the PRO14 member countries.

Simon Thomas is tweeting £30m up from £17/18m.

PhilBB wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:So PRO14 have announced their UK TV deal with all 152 games available on Premier Sports and 21 games on FreeSport for 99 quid. A good deal - but no word rumour on the value of it yet.  A separate deal with native language broadcasters - S4C and BBC Alba is still being worked out.

The deal for ROI will be announced shortly.  And the international rights deal for other territories outside of the PRO14 member countries.

Simon Thomas is tweeting £30m up from £17/18m.

There you go, Phil. In line with what we’d been discussing previously.

That’s a great deal in fairness.

Hard to see how fans can complain to much about that. That is a lot of rugby to watch for a tenner a month.

There is still some available for free as well.

BigGee wrote:Hard to see how fans can complain to much about that. That is a lot of rugby to watch for a tenner a month.

There is still some available for free as well.

Don't they show some French tests too?

Still some complaining though about Having to buy BT for Europe, Premier for Pro14 and Sky for AIs because you have to get Sky all year round to watch the AIs

BigGee wrote:Hard to see how fans can complain to much about that. That is a lot of rugby to watch for a tenner a month.

There is still some available for free as well.

Agreed. If correctly reported, it amounts to a €100m deal for the three years for the Unions until the review point with SARU to see if more teams will be added.

Anayi and his team seem to be delivering the goods.

€100m for 3 seasons is roughly what I was predicting and I was told I was being a bit optimistic.


However, I'm not sure those reported figures are accurate. Anayi said the deal will mean it's doubled the amount of money the pro14 have delivered for the clubs over 3 years. So I presume he means before the South Africans came on board. I though the league were getting about £11m or £12m from TV a few years ago? I hope I'm wrong there.

It's good to see extra money coming in and nice that all the games will be shown. Any money not coming out of the unions limited funds is good news for everyone.

Hopefully they can use the money wisely and not use it on wage inflation (though the T14 is going to cause that anyway)

The 25 million is the total spend on rugby. It includes the 7 million each for Glasgow and Edinburgh. ( again from SRU sources) the other 10 million goes on 7s, womens game, paying refs, development coaches, under 16s, under 18s, under 20s, support to the semi pro teams lower down, schools support, scouting, etc etc.

Glasgow and Edinburgh have a TOTAL budget of around 7 million. of this around 5 million is for players. Highest paid player in Scotland is Stuart Hogg on £300 000.

We should be a bit better off next year tho with a bit more money coming in from the european cup and finishing a bit higher in the 6N. also good money from 25 000 at Murreyfeild on Friday

TJ wrote:

Glasgow and Edinburgh have a TOTAL budget of around 7 million.  of this around 5 million is for players.  

That's hilarious. You're saying on average, the Glasgow and Edinburgh budgets are lower than the Dragons?

Thats what the SRU says.  I thought the dragons had 3.5 million for players - its 7 million total for EACH team - sorry if that wasn't clear.  Glasgow 7 million ish of which 5 is for players, edinburgh the same so 14 million total spend for the two pro teams
Probably ad a million to that for next season

PhilBB wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
Of course far more is spent on the provinces, why is this even debated? When the scarlets et all pull in a shirt sponsorship deal worth 6+ million euro (like leinster with BOI) then maybe they could compete wage wise.

That's not the full story, though, is it? A portion of that is ring fenced for other uses and the term is over 5 years.

But, undoubtedly, Leinster are a massive cash cow. Imagine how much better they'd be if they were cut free from the shackles of IRFU ownership. They wouldn't get smashed by Connacht and beaten by Benetton, that's for sure.

That's just one sponsor though. I've no idea what laya is paying to have their logo on the teams shorts or what Energia is paying to have the naming rights to Donnybrook etc. The Leinster brand has become very attractive to companies

In terms of your second point, using two meaningless league games (Leinster have been guaranteed a playoff position for quite some time) as proof that Leinster would be somehow better off without the IRFU is laughable to say the least.

PhilBB wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
I wasn't comparing Europe to the pro14? You were talking about the region's competitiveness...Anyway sorry but the Ospreys have had numerous great squads (and expensive ones like the galacticos era) over the years and have had packs that could compete with anyone on paper. There has clearly been some sort of mental block with the Welsh region's in Europe for whatever reason. If it was just about "expensive squads" why are Toulouse (40 million Euro spent on squad) being humiliated in Europe yearly since 2012. You can't just expect to lose to somebody who spends more money than you. There are good players in Wales but they need good coaches such as Pivac.

There's a salary cap in France of just over €10m per year. Whoever told you €40m was being spent on the squad was filling your head with pure nonsense.

When Munster and Leinster were winning in Europe, the IRFU was spending more than the salary caps in England and France.

You must be the only rugby fan in the world that thinks teams stick to salary caps. Of course Munster and Leinster were spending big...Why wouldn't they? Two huge clubs with plenty of resources behind them.

All the pro 14 teams have the same income sources. the budgets for players are all around the same amounts. Leinster at the top, zebre at the bottom. The welsh clubs are not disadvantaged financially. You keep comparing apples to potatoes ie the 7 million ish Glasgow budget is their TOTAL budget. Welsh teams get 4 million FOR PLAYERS plus some players on central contracts so the total spend on players is in the same region. IMO the problem for the welsh clubs is this desire to hang on to all the welsh stars meaning they pay too much for them and thus do not have the money for a wider squad. What leinster did first and other teams are catching on - glasgow especially - is not to have a first team and subs but have 2 players in every position who can rotate seamlessly

Leinster do have the most money in the pro 14 but the gap from lowest to highest is nothing like the gap from pro 14 to the french.,

Its only 5 years ago the scots teams were the poorest funded in the pro 12

The thing you have to take into account is that in Phil's view as the welsh teams are/were provide they only spend a certain amoiunt.  Any money the WRU gives the players out of the goodness of their heart is nothing to do with the teams.
On the other hand all the other teams have money pumped in to them by their union and all professional costs are for the first team squad only.  It doesn't cover academies, underage, rugby development.

So as you can all see the welsh are money wizards as proven by the WRU and them paying down the debt.  And then re-enforced by how the welsh teams on pennies competes with all the big budget clubs.  As he said they are the worse funded teams in the 3 leagues even less than the Kings and Zebre.

My opinion is
I think we would all assume that each union is giving top ups to their top players to keep them in the country and we should be glad they are as we are seeing 100 international standard players (probably more) in our league improving the standard

its utter nonsense to say the welsh teams are the worst funded. You have 4 million for players plus central contracts for some players that does not come out of that 4 milloion. glasgow and Edinburgh have 5 million for players. Zebre is lowest.
all pro 14 teams have the same funding streams.

On the other hand all the other teams have money pumped in to them by their union and all professional costs are for the first team squad only. It doesn't cover academies, underage, rugby development.

Simply wrong for the scots teams. Every player on the Glasgow books age grade or not is paid for out of that 5 million.

It comes down to this -0 budgets for players saleries in the pro 12 vary from 3 million for the itailians, 4.5 million for the welsh, 5 million for the scots. Not so sure of the Irish but its under 7 million for players for the biggest and Connacht is probably less then the welsh

The welsh teams are in the middle of the funding range.

I think we would all assume that each union is giving top ups to their top players to keep them in the country and we should be glad they are as we are seeing 100 international standard players (probably more) in our league improving the standard

NOpe - the scots teams have a budget for players and thats it. Highest paid pro player in Scotland is Hogg on £300 000. Who is the highest paid welsh player and how much does he get?

TJ I must not have made it sarcastic enough

As it's starts as in Phil's view I thought people might get it but will need to do better next time.  I know that what Phil is saying is rubbish and that all the pro14 teams spend a good chunk of money on their first team but also all the money on making sure they also look after the stars of tomorrow

In regard top up the IRFU & WRU do contract top ups. It would seem the SRU give it to the club's and let them decide who they want to give more or less to.

sorry - it wooshed over my head

TJ wrote:its utter nonsense to say the welsh teams are the worst funded.  You have 4 million for players plus central contracts for some players that does not come out of that 4 milloion.  glasgow and Edinburgh have 5 million for players. Zebre is lowest.
all pro 14 teams have the same funding streams.

On the other hand all the other teams have money pumped in to them by their union and all professional costs are for the first team squad only. It doesn't cover academies, underage, rugby development.

Simply wrong for the scots teams.  Every player on the Glasgow books age grade or not is paid for out of that 5 million.

It comes down to this -0 budgets for players saleries in the pro 12 vary from 3 million for the itailians, 4.5 million for the welsh, 5 million for the scots.  Not so sure of the Irish but its under 7 million for players for the biggest and Connacht is probably less then the welsh

The welsh teams are in the middle of the funding range.

What are you basing this on, TJ? Just a hunch? I wouldn’t dream of guessing what the Irish or Scots were on. I certainly wouldn’t put a figure in it!

http://the1014.com/the-international-pro14/

Interesting Article about how each union's win rate was against the other unions. For the breakdown against each union you can find it in the article

Wins/win rates
Scotland 27 out of 36 75%
Ireland 35 out of 60 58%
Italy 15 out of 36 42%
Wales 24 out of 60 40%
South Africa 10 out of 36 28%

the oracle - based on information gleaned from many sources including on here. Its my best guess. some of the figures we know for sure, some are less certain, some are hard to compare because of differnt methods of reporting income.

We know the welsh teams have a 4 millionish budget plus more money from central contracts We know the scots teams cost 7 million a year to run including all costs. We know roughly the Italian budgets and can make a fair stab at the Irish ones.

The range of player budgets in the pro 14 is 3 - 6 million aprox. Zebre at the bottom. leinster at the top.

We know there is no huge disparity in amounts of money available.

Anyone know who the highest paid Welsh player is?