6N 2018: France v Ireland

First topic message reminder :




France v Ireland
3 February 2018

Kick off: 16:45
Venue: Stade de France
Referee: Nigel Owens

France:
15. Geoffrey Palis (Castres)
14. Teddy Thomas (Racing 92)
13. Rémi Lamerat (Clermont Auvergne)
12. Henry Chavancy (Racing 92)
11. Virimi Vakatawa (Racing 92)
10. Matthieu Jalibert (Bordeaux-Bègles)
9. Maxime Machenaud (Racing 92)
1. Jefferson Poirot (Bordeaux-Bègles)
2. Guilhem Guirado (Toulon) (c)
3. Rabah Slimani (Clermont Auvergne)
4. Sébastien Vahaamahina (Clermont Auvergne)
5. Arthur Iturria (Clermont Auvergne)
6. Wenceslas Lauret (Racing 92)
7. Yacouba Camara (Montpellier)
8. Kévin Gourdon (La Rochelle)

Replacements:
16. Adrien Pelissié (Bordeaux-Bègles)
17. Dany Priso (La Rochelle)
18. Cedate Gomes Sa (Racing 92)
19. Paul Gabrillagues (La Rochelle)
20. Marco Tauleigne (Bordeaux-Bègles)
21. Antoine Dupont (Toulouse)
22. Anthony Belleau (Toulon)
23. Benjamin Fall (Montpellier)

Ireland:
15. Rob Kearney (UCD/Leinster) 78 caps
14. Keith Earls (Young Munster/Munster) 62 caps
13. Robbie Henshaw (Buccaneers/Leinster) 31 caps
12. Bundee Aki (Galwegians/Connacht) 2 caps
11. Jacob Stockdale (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster) 4 caps
10. Johnny Sexton (St Mary's College/Leinster) 68 caps
9. Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster) 59 caps
1. Cian Healy (Clontarf/Leinster) 73 caps
2. Rory Best (Banbridge/Ulster) 106 caps (captain)
3. Tadhg Furlong (Clontarf/Leinster) 19 caps
4. Iain Henderson (Ballynahinch/Ulster) 34 caps
5. James Ryan (UCD/Leinster) 4 caps
6. Peter O'Mahony (Cork Constitution/Munster) 42 caps
7. Josh van der Flier (UCD/Leinster) 9 caps
8. CJ Stander (Shannon/Munster) 18 caps

Replacements
16. Sean Cronin (St Mary's College/Leinster) 56 caps
17. Jack McGrath (St Mary's College/Leinster) 42 caps
18. John Ryan (Cork Constitution/Munster) 11 caps
19. Devin Toner (Lansdowne/Leinster) 53 caps
20. Dan Leavy (UCD/Leinster) 4 caps
21. Luke McGrath (UCD/Leinster) 6 caps
22. Joey Carbery (Clontarf/Leinster) 6 caps
23. Fergus McFadden (Old Belvedere/Leinster) 32 caps

And whoever said about the hia earlier.....this is now a pi** take and france and whoever else need to be penalised.

HIA ???! Wtf really

eirebilly wrote:There is pragmatic Sam and there is this. Ireland have again shown absolutely no attacking imagination at all. All to often we see Ireland build up a small lead, try to defend and lose.

Schmidt is simply far to negative and conservative.

Small leads are dangerous. As I said, playing pragmatic is gone as long as you've got a sufficient lead. What I don't understand is why there's been no crossfield kicks from Ireland. They are far superior in the air, put one up and have a go.

France are playing a little fast and loose with the HIA protocol.

I see crooked feeds are allowed again too

formerly known as Sam wrote:

eirebilly wrote:There is pragmatic Sam and there is this. Ireland have again shown absolutely no attacking imagination at all. All to often we see Ireland build up a small lead, try to defend and lose.

Schmidt is simply far to negative and conservative.

Small leads are dangerous. As I said, playing pragmatic is gone as long as you've got a sufficient lead. What I don't understand is why there's been no crossfield kicks from Ireland. They are far superior in the air, put one up and have a go.

France are playing a little fast and loose with the HIA protocol.

Because Schmidt is far too negative and conservative.

F*****g hell Sexton!

Wow. Take a bow Sexton.

Smart play from Ireland to build at the end there. France really threw it away with the miss and Ireland took their chance and worked bloody hard for it. Not an easy one that.

Great composure from Sexton there to get the DG but really, France were the only team really trying to play rugby and win this game.

Hard lines France and whocares.

There was about three penalties each in those 36 phases. Owen bottled making any decision.

Well well well what a difference that could make!

Take a bow, Johnny Sexton!

Ireland just about deserved the win but nothing to worry England in that. I am not sure Ireland played a genuine attacking move in the whole match.

Wow. What a drop goal in difficult conditions.

Tight, tense game.

Well played Ireland. Cracking finish.

I think the standard of officiating today was awful. Did Nige forget his cards.

Fantastic drop goal.

Thought it was gone, even when France missed the late pen.

Sexton, what a player. Great kick after all those phases.

Irish slam still on

The HIA was more than a joke.

Nigel Owens made it completely clear he did not agree and that he had not made the decision. Still it did not effect the result at the end of the day.

Ireland have definitely used their get out of jail card now!

I was supporting France until they started playing silly bu**ers with the HIA again, the 22 clearly had a knee injury, no one looked at the players head, he pointed to his knee. I saw no collision to the head. Is the match doctor French?

Well done Ireland, you stuck at it until the very end. I think you will need to be better at HQ though, if you want to come away with a win.

westisbest wrote:Thought it was gone, even when France missed the late pen.

Sexton, what a player. Great kick after all those phases.

Irish slam still on

They will need to play a lot better than that. Teddy Thomas excepted neither team had any attacking ability at all.

It was the team Dr who called hia. Let's face it. It was cheating and given the high consequence nature needs to have a severe consequence.

*No. match Dr it was.

Exiledinborders wrote:Ireland just about deserved the win but nothing to worry England in that. I am not sure Ireland played a genuine attacking move in the whole match.

We hardly worried England in our first game last year and still won in our meeting with them. Not a good display from Ireland but one game at at time eh.

Ireland England will be close and depend a lot on squads and injuries between now and then. I suspect it's so close that each is favourite "just" at their own home but either could do it.

A great game from both teams. thought Ireland had blew it when France score the only try of the game. But never wright Ireland off, great drop kick from Sexton to win the game at the end.

Exiledinborders wrote:

westisbest wrote:Thought it was gone, even when France missed the late pen.

Sexton, what a player. Great kick after all those phases.

Irish slam still on

They will need to play a lot better than that. Teddy Thomas excepted neither team had any attacking ability at all.

Ireland found another gear when they went behind. The crossfield kick from Sexton to Earles was lovely. Why he didn't go to that earlier? France weren't great under the high ball.

France have two very young and inexperienced flyhalfs and no creation in the rest of the backine. Big pressure on the 9s to create.

That was an ar*e kicker of a drop from Sexton. Great players have to make great plays. He did.

True, neither team looked like an attacking machine, but we all know teams develop and evolve a bit during the Six Nations. So, the Ireland we saw today will not be the same Ireland we play later on. Same with France. On the England side, they have to learn from this and really ramp up their attack. That will be the key.

42 phases and a drop goal. Does that beat Rog’s famous DG for Munster?

Great balls from Sexton. Kudos to him. Probably deserved in the end. France were brave but a limited side nonetheless. Not sure it was worth losing our best prospects at 9 and 10 for a honorable defeat. Would rather have lost by 20 points tbh.

I just don't get some of the Ireland players. Dynamic and offloading when at their provinces but when playing for Ireland it's ball up the jumper and grind out a result. Surely the players must get frustrated with Schmidt's tactics. I know I am.

Great resilience from Ireland at the end there, in atrocious conditions, but there wasn’t much on show from either side beyond that. Ireland well organised but blunt in attack, France too ill disciplined and struggling to break down a well organised defence.

Maine man wrote:I just don't get some of the Ireland players. Dynamic and offloading when at their provinces but when playing for Ireland it's ball up the jumper and grind out a result. Surely the players must get frustrated with Schmidt's tactics. I know I am.

No no no. You're not allowed to question 'he who can do no wrong'.

https://www.balls.ie/rugby/listen-michael-corcorans-manic-mental-throast-bursting-commentary-sexton-drop-goal-382600

Maine man wrote:I just don't get some of the Ireland players. Dynamic and offloading when at their provinces but when playing for Ireland it's ball up the jumper and grind out a result. Surely the players must get frustrated with Schmidt's tactics. I know I am.

I have said before that Schmidt is an excellent club coach when he can work with the players day in and day out. He can get the odd good performance at International level but not the consistency because he is too afraid to allow players to play their natural game, he seems more afraid of losing than winning. Its probably why he relies on the Leinster players so much as he knows them better.

To me, he is a coach who can turn naturally gifted excellent players into good players and average players into good players because he coaches them to play to a very strict game plan. Having a strict game plan is good but you also need players that can provide that little bit of flair and not get punished for showing that little bit extra flair.

Poorfour wrote:Great resilience from Ireland at the end there, in atrocious conditions, but there wasn’t much on show from either side beyond that. Ireland well organised but blunt in attack, France too ill disciplined and struggling to break down a well organised defence.

Well Joe likes to play it close to the bone - and you just can't get any closer than that.  Almost a disaster.  

Joe seems to just fear and fear - and his fear leads him to a tense and taut defensive mind-set that keeps his players choosing a primitive method of going forward/and or creating space.
I can in a sense understand the mentality because if you try a free and open game with certain sides (em, the organised chaos kind of thing, to use the new lingo ) then the chaos is chaos - and anything can happen, including the result landed on Scottish shoulders today.  
So I understand Schmidt's desire to rein in a natural desire within players to use their skills to run and conjure space.  But again and again I say of you don't practice it, you won't be slick at it when you need it.  And increasingly in the highest levels of rugby, you need to be seriously effective at creating space quickly and charging at steam through it.
Irish players are capable of a much more effective attack game but orders and system and strategy are boss.

It's a very tough gameplan we play - extremely tough on our players.  We'll be lucky again to get through the rest of the games with all our central players still fit.  Other sides now will undoubtedly show us easier ways to win against a side like France (unless they themselves are in a mood to go all the way for a title).  But I think we'll see easier ways to do things - yet we always seem to choose toughest way.

I think we will play a more pleasing brand at times this season and as I say, we are capable of it - but that intransigence in Schmidt makes us hard to beat (ask poor France).  It also though discourages so much genuine individual talent within the squad.  I do wish Joe would decide to fear less and perhaps then, and perhaps ironically, win more easily!

Shut up billy! I was going to say that first!

Great result from that position. We started well with some really nice attacking interplay among the forwards especially but once the rain came down neither team could get anything going with ball in hand.

Our maul let us down ,we couldn’t generate pressure there and going wide on a wet,heavy pitch with a slippery ball would be suicide.We were still very comfortable until Murray,Kearney and Stockdale managed to allow France run in a nice counterattacking score.We should be more threatening when the pitches dry up.

Leavy was excellent,he should hold that 7 shirt and he has the potential to keep O’Brien out on merit,Ryan had a great game for a 6N debutant but not too many others really stood out until the last few minutes where Sexton made 3 different top class kicks,Henderson caught the restart and carried and rucked like a demon,Earls’ catch and run in the wet was stunning and Stander just eked our yards he had no right to.Just top class play so late in the game and a credit to how well drilled the team are that they could do that in those conditions after 82 minutes.

Sexton was also in the heat defending. I really love his bloody honesty. He wants to do everything and play a full game. Our strategies limit him and his fellow players but yep, he's one great player.

Exiledinborders wrote:

westisbest wrote:Thought it was gone, even when France missed the late pen.

Sexton, what a player. Great kick after all those phases.

Irish slam still on

They will need to play a lot better than that. Teddy Thomas excepted neither team had any attacking ability at all.

'course they'll have to play better than that. England are a better side than France - at least as far as we know until they meet.

Great kick by Sexton, but 40 odd phases with attacking teams sealing off the ball with impunity and attacking players running beyond the ruck and lifting the defending fetcher off his feet tells me that test rugby has lost its way.
Rugby league without the sixth tackle makes a poor spectacle.

The Munster boys can moan about Schmidt all they want, but the reality is that there is no better coach to lead Ireland to the RWC2019.

This is international rugby, not club rugby. The defenses of the top teams are better, players are bigger and faster, space is at a premium.

France brought it in defense, and the conditions were terrible. Ireland simply don't have top end pace out wide, so it's very difficult to score. If we come up against a porous like Scotland today, we'll score, otherwise we will struggle. And it doesn't matter who is our coach.

So are French rugby Aliens or Cheats - you decide.

Either they abused the HIA protocols or two of their players have their brains in their knees
Which do you reckon it is ?

the-goon wrote: . Ireland simply don't have top end pace out wide, so it's very difficult to score. .

Nonsense.
Pace out wide was not the failing today.
Accuracy and insufficient kicking were the weaknesses
Looked a bit rusty - still the better side.
Got the worst performance out of the tournament out of the way - 3 home games on the bounce
Every chance

geoff999rugby wrote:So are French rugby Aliens or Cheats - you decide.

Either they abused the HIA protocols or two of their players have their brains in their knees
Which do you reckon it is ?

The tunnel walk-down was a classic.  The poor player's knee was throbbing.  The guy on the right (his left) didn't give a damn.... My best attempt at lip reading goes like this (in French of course): "point to your head, you idiot!  Point to your head now - before the cameras leave us.  Now!  Do it!"
I laughed.  Why else would a player point to his head?  What would the legitimate question have been?  "Where do you think you are concussed?"

geoff999rugby wrote:So are French rugby Aliens or Cheats - you decide.

Either they abused the HIA protocols or two of their players have their brains in their knees
Which do you reckon it is ?

The independent match Doctor confirmed that he wanted to do an HIA, and in both cases there was at least some level of contact with the head in the collision. Yes, in both cases the knee injury looked more serious, but if we are serious about tackling concussion- and we should be - this is the price we pay, and to my mind it’s a relatively small one.

In both cases, the principal benefit to France of it being an HIA was that they were able to replace a specialist player with someone who played the same position. We already allow that for front rows anyway, and I would actually be happy to see it extended to scrum half and fly half. I always think it’s an unfair advantage when a team has replaced a specialist and then loses the replacement to a genuine, can’t-carry-on injury.

Am not sure who that Independent Match doctor is (and who appoints him)!but would be good if the 6N organiser come up with some official statement on the decision process. Transparency is needed here. There is enough debate about referee decisions so certainly do not need some medical controversies / consipary théories on top. Bless Sexton because if in the end France would have stolen that game, the Irish press would have gone full « Thierry Henry » on us and the French Ambassador would be packing his suitcase by now

whocares wrote:Am not sure who that Independent Match doctor is (and who appoints him)!but would be good if the 6N organiser come up with some official statement on the decision process. Transparency is needed here. There is enough debate about referee decisions so certainly do not need some medical controversies / consipary théories on top. Bless Sexton because if in the end France would have stolen that game, the Irish press would have gone full « Thierry Henry » on us and the French Ambassador would be packing his suitcase by now

We've gone full Tierry Henry before and what did it get us?  A sneering public laugh/putdown from the ex President of FIFA.  I laughed at the laugher - what could you do?  Corruption was everywhere in that organisation.  You have to laugh at the idiots that protest too much when suspicious things happen that officialdom doesn't want to see.  I laughed yesterday at the shenanigans.  What can you do?

ps. well played France though.  The were organised and squeezed the bloody life out of Ireland.  WC finalists proving they are not natural bedfellows to Italy and now I hope they push on and prove it through their other games!

the-goon wrote:The Munster boys can moan about Schmidt all they want, but the reality is that there is no better coach to lead Ireland to the RWC2019.

This is international rugby, not club rugby. The defenses of the top teams are better, players are bigger and faster, space is at a premium.

France brought it in defense, and the conditions were terrible. Ireland simply don't have top end pace out wide, so it's very difficult to score. If we come up against a porous like Scotland today, we'll score, otherwise we will struggle. And it doesn't matter who is our coach.

Oh dear god man, get that anti Munster chip off your shoulder, you are starting to be pathetic. There are 4 provinces in Ireland, not just Leinster and Munster. You cannot see that Schmidt relies more on the Leinster players than any other? As explained earlier it is because he knows them and trusts them to follow his game plans.

Ireland do not have pace out wide? Are you for real? Ireland have plenty of pace out wide, especially in Earls and Stockdale.

The problem I have with Schmidt is his seemingly fear of losing rather than his ambition to win. Ireland will get some big wins under him but they will not be consistent. Ireland really only used the outside pace when they went behind yesterday and I feel it could have come earlier. Schmidt sets teams up to get a lead and defend, he is not ruthless enough to push the envelope. A start contrast to when he was at Leinster. Working day in day out with players, Schmidt is up there with the best.

Poorfour wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:So are French rugby Aliens or Cheats - you decide.

Either they abused the HIA protocols or two of their players have their brains in their knees
Which do you reckon it is ?

The independent match Doctor confirmed that he wanted to do an HIA, and in both cases there was at least some level of contact with the head in the collision. Yes, in both cases the knee injury looked more serious, but if we are serious about tackling concussion- and we should be - this is the price we pay, and to my mind it’s a relatively small one.

I know cheating when I see it.
If those players didn't have knee injuries they wouldn't have even have left the pitch and any HIA requirement would have been denied by the French staff.
Just look at Guy Noyes forcing a clearly concussed centre back on the pitch a couple of years back.
If the coaching staff tell a doctor the player took a knock to the head no doctor is going to risk denying a HIA

geoff999rugby wrote:[
If the coaching staff tell a doctor the player took a knock to the head no doctor is going to risk denying a HIA

This 100%.

It appears as if the French have instructed all players that if they take a knock, they are to inform the independent Dr that they have hit their head. No Dr will refuse to conduct an HIA in this day and age.

eirebilly wrote:

The problem I have with Schmidt is his seemingly fear of losing rather than his ambition to win. Ireland will get some big wins under him but they will not be consistent. Ireland really only used the outside pace when they went behind yesterday and I feel it could have come earlier. Schmidt sets teams up to get a lead and defend, he is not ruthless enough to push the envelope. A start contrast to when he was at Leinster. Working day in day out with players, Schmidt is up there with the best.

A few things.

It's obvious he wants to win.  But yes, there does seem to be an equal fear of losing in his psyche.  Correct.  Or rather than using that way of saying it, as if I know all - I'll say Yes, billy I agree.

So why does he fear losing?  Might it be that losing becomes a habit?  If you risk an entire Six Nations to the beautiful stuff and experiment on letting players roughly choose their time and space to chase for tries - will that always be the winning formula?
Well the Wales Scotland game is kind of the two sides of the coin.  Wales shows that it can operate but let nobody fool themselves, Welsh players always have and had that in their armoury despite this crud about them only being able to play it the Gatland ball way.  Gatland can let players do their thing when he wants to and always has.  But I digress - Wales shows that the slick game can work and Scotland show that all the pomp about it can embarrass the crap out of you.  
So - the prospect of a fast and loose and opportunistic Ireland; counterattacked into the dirt all through the Six Nations; ending up in 5th or 6th.  
Would you be still supporting Schmidt's ambition even to try?  And, more importantly, how does a coach work himself out of that squad gloom through the next months and years?  Losing becomes a habit.  Just ask France.

Another point.  Just when have we ever been consistent?  And considering we've had a good few coaches (we don't hold onto them as long as Wales!) can we truly blame the coaches or do we blame Irish players over the decades for perhaps being over-confident that Provincial ability is enough for International competition?  Maybe there is a smugness that is constantly being brought back down to earth?  
The inconsistency thing is virtually as old as I am.  We've always talked about it - the up and down nature of Irish teams.  Even with the system Joe uses, we've often made it look menacing, smothering and ruthless.  We've often scored heavily in games (through forwards) using it.  So why not yesterday?  Why the inconsistency?  New Zealand are a much tougher obstacle on paper than France.  Why the inconsistency?  All the coaches fault?  Perhaps.  But that would mean that we've had a handful of coaches that proved 'inconsistent' in their coaching - and one of them was Gatland.

And finally.  Isn't it curious that Joe Schmidt, ex Leinster coach, that chooses to pick Leinster players because he knows them and coached them, then chooses to use them to play a game much more in keeping with Munster age old values than Leinster age old values.  That final winning surge up through the bang, bang, bang, and bang routine was classic Munster.  And here we have a Munster man saying it's not the right kind of rugby and that Joe should choose more of a Leinster way...with more Ulster, Munster and Connacht players being chosen to play it.