Try or No Try...

by No9 Mon 12 Feb - 13:19

First topic message reminder :

I know this has been debated to death on the game thread, and I also know that, whether to WUM, or real believe or just nationalistic pride, there has been some real "aggressive" (shall I say) debating over the TMOs decision.

But, as every pundit I've heard as stated it was, in their opinion a try, except for Guscott who agreed it was grounded by Anscombe, but points to the knock on by Evans, I would like to know what you guys actually thought, without the need to argue and take a nationalistic stance.

If you want to leave comments to back your theory, do so, but please PLEASE, lets stay civil.

So, I'll put my thoughts in a response, rather than the opening comment ...

So, the poll is was it a Try or Not..

by **LondonTiger** Mon 12 Feb - 15:57

LordDowlais wrote:This has really split the opinion.

40:60 atm - so a more decisive margin than brexit Run

by Margin_Walker Mon 12 Feb - 15:58

Grounding was fine. Evans definitely knocks on though, so TMO got to the right end result by getting everything wrong.

by No9 Mon 12 Feb - 15:59

No matter how much I slow the video down, I cannot tell if that touched Steff's finger or not. I'm sure it came forward from the knee not the finger, as that light brush of the finger only wouldn't have been enough to change the direction of the ball and definitely not enough to "kick" it on behind the line where Anscombe and Watson would have been competing for it. But again thats using reason and logic rather than definite video evidence.

Try or No Try... - Page 2 Steffk10

So the "knock on", unless we have another camera angle is inconclusive and in normal play would be "play on".

Then we are back to the grounding, and I believe the video (from various angles) shows Anscombe grounding the ball before Watson.

Try... from the video evidence available. TMO got it wrong. (should have added in my opinion)

by **LondonTiger** Mon 12 Feb - 16:02

My gut feel was try - however I saw no conclusive evidence that Anscombe was still in contact with the ball when it was on the ground. As someone (TJ?) pointed out his hand is sliding off the ball as it gets closer to the ground. From one angle looked like it was in contact, from another huge doubt.

I would have felt aggrieved if it had been the other way round, but with the question that was asked not sure there was enough clear evidence to award a try.

by Margin_Walker Mon 12 Feb - 16:13

No9 wrote:No matter how much I slow the video down, I cannot tell if that touched Steff's finger or not. I'm sure it came forward from the knee not the finger, as that light brush of the finger only wouldn't have been enough to change the direction of the ball and definitely not enough to "kick" it on behind the line where Anscombe and Watson would have been competing for it. But again thats using reason and logic rather than definite video evidence.

So the "knock on", unless we have another camera angle is inconclusive and in normal play would be "play on".

Then we are back to the grounding, and I believe the video (from various angles) shows Anscombe grounding the ball before Watson.

Try... from the video evidence available. TMO got it wrong. (should have added in my opinion)

This shows it better.

https://twitter.com/mattyjwills/status/962614149154041856

Edit - To be fair, would have been tough for the TMO to spot that at the time

by No9 Mon 12 Feb - 16:26

Margin_Walker wrote:
No9 wrote:No matter how much I slow the video down, I cannot tell if that touched Steff's finger or not. I'm sure it came forward from the knee not the finger, as that light brush of the finger only wouldn't have been enough to change the direction of the ball and definitely not enough to "kick" it on behind the line where Anscombe and Watson would have been competing for it. But again thats using reason and logic rather than definite video evidence.

So the "knock on", unless we have another camera angle is inconclusive and in normal play would be "play on".

Then we are back to the grounding, and I believe the video (from various angles) shows Anscombe grounding the ball before Watson.

Try... from the video evidence available. TMO got it wrong. (should have added in my opinion)

This shows it better.

https://twitter.com/mattyjwills/status/962614149154041856

Edit - To be fair, would have been tough for the TMO to spot that at the time

Yep, that does clear it up.. From that, its now obvious it hit the knee last before going forward. For it to be a knock on, it would have had to either not hit the knee or hit the knee then the hand, ie. the hand (or finger) last before going forward, which this clearly shows it doesn't.

So thanks... clear video evidence that it wasn't a knock on..

by Margin_Walker Mon 12 Feb - 16:28

If you drop a ball and it hits your knee and goes forward, it's a knock on.

by cascough Mon 12 Feb - 16:34

Of course we all know the real injustice here. When the referee asks "Is there any reason I can't award the try?" how on earth does the TMO decide that Cueto was clearly and obviously in touch!? I mean, the sheer number of replays it took to decide would logically suggest it wasn't clear and obvious! Cool

by No9 Mon 12 Feb - 16:35

Margin_Walker wrote:If you drop a ball and it hits your knee and goes forward, it's a knock on.

NOT if the ball doesn't go forward from the hand. This video doesn't show if the ball goes forward from the finger..

It could be argued as a kick on..

My point, being I haven't seen an angle that makes the knock on argument conclusive.

by Scottrf Mon 12 Feb - 16:36

I don't think it's a knock on.

In fact, by the laws a knock on is only during a tackle or tackle attempt.

by SecretFly Mon 12 Feb - 16:38

Oh dear God......

...and how long is this game? And the ref is meant to listen to all this stuff in his earpiece and make a prompt judgement?

by Scottrf Mon 12 Feb - 16:40

SecretFly wrote:Oh dear God......

...and how long is this game? And the ref is meant to listen to all this stuff in his earpiece and make a prompt judgement?

"It's taken two days but the TMO has decided that the grounding was clear and obvious. Try awarded. Here comes the conversion."

by cascough Mon 12 Feb - 16:41

...And Patchell has missed it! 12-8. Hard lines.

by No9 Mon 12 Feb - 16:42

cascough wrote:Of course we all know the real injustice here. When the referee asks "Is there any reason I can't award the try?" how on earth does the TMO decide that Cueto was clearly and obviously in touch!? I mean, the sheer number of replays it took to decide would logically suggest it wasn't clear and obvious!

Ok, not going to bring that up or this thread will, like others, turn into a WUM fest..

BUT, it does raise the point that I think many have said. How could the TMO come to the conclusion that Watson grounded it, which is what he said, in such a short time. He could only have looked at the replay a few times and no matter how many times we've looked at it, its not conclusive.

So, although I really believe it was a try, I dont see how it could have been given with any certainty, but that means on the flip side I dont see how in the short time he had he could say it wasn't a try and I definitely think his rational was completely wrong.

Whatever happened to the doubt given to the attacking side, as always the case with the All Blacks censored

by Margin_Walker Mon 12 Feb - 16:42

No9 wrote:
Margin_Walker wrote:If you drop a ball and it hits your knee and goes forward, it's a knock on.

NOT if the ball doesn't go forward from the hand. This video doesn't show if the ball goes forward from the finger..

It could be argued as a kick on..

My point, being I haven't seen an angle that makes the knock on argument conclusive.

Evans is travelling forward, that ball is still going towards the opposition goal line after hitting the finger.

Even if that weren't the case fumbling onto your body and it going forward is still a knock on. Here's a common example - a full back sets to receive a kick, the ball goes through his hands (hitting them on the way through) and bounces off his midriff (or knee if you prefer) forwards. Would you say that was a knock on?

by Scottrf Mon 12 Feb - 16:43

No9 wrote:
cascough wrote:Of course we all know the real injustice here. When the referee asks "Is there any reason I can't award the try?" how on earth does the TMO decide that Cueto was clearly and obviously in touch!? I mean, the sheer number of replays it took to decide would logically suggest it wasn't clear and obvious!

Ok, not going to bring that up or this thread will, like others, turn into a WUM fest..

BUT, it does raise the point that I think many have said. How could the TMO come to the conclusion that Watson grounded it, which is what he said, in such a short time. He could only have looked at the replay a few times and no matter how many times we've looked at it, its not conclusive.

So, although I really believe it was a try, I dont see how it could have been given with any certainty, but that means on the flip side I dont see how in the short time he had he could say it wasn't a try and I definitely think his rational was completely wrong.

Whatever happened to the doubt given to the attacking side, as always the case with the All Blacks

Yeah agree, his reasoning was at best, confusing.

by Scottrf Mon 12 Feb - 16:44

Margin_Walker wrote:
No9 wrote:
Margin_Walker wrote:If you drop a ball and it hits your knee and goes forward, it's a knock on.

NOT if the ball doesn't go forward from the hand. This video doesn't show if the ball goes forward from the finger..

It could be argued as a kick on..

My point, being I haven't seen an angle that makes the knock on argument conclusive.

Evans is travelling forward, that ball is still going towards the opposition goal line after hitting the finger.

Even if that weren't the case fumbling onto your body and it going forward is still a knock on. Here's a common example - a full back sets to receive a kick, the ball goes through his hands (hitting them on the way through) and bounces off his midriff (or knee if you prefer) forwards. Would you say that was a knock on?

Drop the ball forward, and kick it, not a knock on.

by Heaf Mon 12 Feb - 16:45

Scottrf wrote:I don't think it's a knock on.

In fact, by the laws a knock on is only during a tackle or tackle attempt.

Erm ... I think that's one way of knocking on but not the only way .... otherwise fumbling a ball forwards from a pass or kick wouldn't be a knock on ...

by Scottrf Mon 12 Feb - 16:46

Heaf wrote:
Scottrf wrote:I don't think it's a knock on.

In fact, by the laws a knock on is only during a tackle or tackle attempt.

Erm ... I think that's one way of knocking on but not the only way .... otherwise fumbling a ball forwards from a pass or kick wouldn't be a knock on ...

I agree that's how it's judged, but it's not in the laws.

by Margin_Walker Mon 12 Feb - 16:47

Scottrf wrote:
Drop the ball forward, and kick it, not a knock on.

It was the knee not the foot. Besides only when you intend to kick. If you drop the ball by accident and kick it, it's a knock on

by Scottrf Mon 12 Feb - 16:50

Margin_Walker wrote:
Scottrf wrote:
Drop the ball forward, and kick it, not a knock on.

It was the knee not the foot. Besides only when you intend to kick. If you drop the ball by accident and kick it, it's a knock on

Grayson scored a try for Saints this season when exactly that happened. I'd like to see proof.

by LordDowlais Mon 12 Feb - 16:50

What about a drop kick/goal ?

You drop the ball and kick it. What's the difference ?

by Margin_Walker Mon 12 Feb - 16:51

Scottrf wrote:
Margin_Walker wrote:
Scottrf wrote:
Drop the ball forward, and kick it, not a knock on.

It was the knee not the foot. Besides only when you intend to kick. If you drop the ball by accident and kick it, it's a knock on

Grayson scored a try for Saints this season when exactly that happened. I'd like to see proof.

Haven't seen that, so can't comment. But when it's obvious, it's blown for. Like this one

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPb5fhfYI9E

by No9 Mon 12 Feb - 16:52

Margin_Walker wrote:
No9 wrote:
Margin_Walker wrote:If you drop a ball and it hits your knee and goes forward, it's a knock on.

NOT if the ball doesn't go forward from the hand. This video doesn't show if the ball goes forward from the finger..

It could be argued as a kick on..

My point, being I haven't seen an angle that makes the knock on argument conclusive.

Evans is travelling forward, that ball is still going towards the opposition goal line after hitting the finger.

Even if that weren't the case fumbling onto your body and it going forward is still a knock on. Here's a common example - a full back sets to receive a kick, the ball goes through his hands (hitting them on the way through) and bounces off his midriff (or knee if you prefer) forwards. Would you say that was a knock on?

I'm of an age, that when I played coming off the knee was just a kick.. I remember seeing Phil Bennett kick a ball off his knee over the heads of a player as he run round him to collect it and score a try. I use to try it myself, but sadly never as effectively. So I dont see the ball coming off the knee as a knock on. As for the forward momentum of the ball and the player, thats been done so many times and I believe the All Blacks got they're way on that years ago.

We're never going to get agreement on this. I still dont think there is clear undisputable video evidence either way.

by Scottrf Mon 12 Feb - 16:54

Margin_Walker wrote:
Scottrf wrote:
Margin_Walker wrote:
Scottrf wrote:
Drop the ball forward, and kick it, not a knock on.

It was the knee not the foot. Besides only when you intend to kick. If you drop the ball by accident and kick it, it's a knock on

Grayson scored a try for Saints this season when exactly that happened. I'd like to see proof.

Haven't seen that, so can't comment. But when it's obvious, it's blown for. Like this one

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPb5fhfYI9E

Fair play

I don't see how you can fumble and gather but not fumble and kick though.

by LordDowlais Mon 12 Feb - 16:54

Mark Ring used to specialise in it as well, off the knee, and re-gather.

by Heaf Mon 12 Feb - 16:54

Scottrf wrote:
Heaf wrote:
Scottrf wrote:I don't think it's a knock on.

In fact, by the laws a knock on is only during a tackle or tackle attempt.

Erm ... I think that's one way of knocking on but not the only way .... otherwise fumbling a ball forwards from a pass or kick wouldn't be a knock on ...

I agree that's how it's judged, but it's not in the laws.

What you describe in the laws is one way of knocking on - it's not defined as the only way otherwise how would a player knock-on when attempting to catch a ball?

by Scottrf Mon 12 Feb - 16:55

Heaf wrote:
Scottrf wrote:
Heaf wrote:
Scottrf wrote:I don't think it's a knock on.

In fact, by the laws a knock on is only during a tackle or tackle attempt.

Erm ... I think that's one way of knocking on but not the only way .... otherwise fumbling a ball forwards from a pass or kick wouldn't be a knock on ...

I agree that's how it's judged, but it's not in the laws.

What you describe in the laws is one way of knocking on - it's not defined as the only way otherwise how would a player knock-on when attempting to catch a ball?

Look I agree that's a knock on in reality. But check the laws.

by Heaf Mon 12 Feb - 16:58

I did ...

It is not an intentional knock-on if, in the act of trying to catch the ball, the player knocks on provided that there was a reasonable expectation that the player could gain possession.

Where do the laws say the ONLY way to knock on is in the tackle?

by Margin_Walker Mon 12 Feb - 16:58

One final post from the World Rugby clarifications section

http://laws.worldrugby.org/index.php?domain=10&clarification_era=upto&union=WRU&clarification=51&language=EN

World Rugby wrote:A player in possession of the ball drops it onto his thigh and propels it forward. What is the correct decision?

If this occurred in general play the following would apply. By definition 'A kick is made by hitting the ball with any part of the leg or foot, except the heel, from the toe to the knee but not including the knee…'. In the case described the ball has not been kicked but has been dropped onto the thigh and this is ruled as a knock-on or throw forward. If the action as described was taken by a player after his team had been awarded a penalty kick or free kick, then a PK or FK has not been correctly taken. Under Law 21.3(b) bouncing the ball on the thigh can in this case be taken to include the knee as this is also in the definition above. Thus, the player has infringed this Law and a scrum to the opposing team should be ordered.

by Scottrf Mon 12 Feb - 16:59

Heaf wrote:I did ...

It is not an intentional knock-on if, in the act of trying to catch the ball, the player knocks on provided that there was a reasonable expectation that the player could gain possession.

Where do the laws say the ONLY way to knock on is in the tackle?

It's the only time they define knock on.

by SecretFly Mon 12 Feb - 17:00

LordDowlais wrote:What about a drop kick/goal ?

You drop the ball and kick it. What's the difference ?

The difference is the ball hits the ground before you kick it not the other way around?

by LordDowlais Mon 12 Feb - 17:00

Margin_Walker wrote:'A kick is made by hitting the ball with any part of the leg or foot, except the heel, from the toe to the knee but not including the knee…'.

Simon Zebo scored a try by kicking it forward off his heel against us a few years back, is this another travesty of justice ? Shocked

by Scottrf Mon 12 Feb - 17:01

Margin_Walker wrote:One final post from the World Rugby clarifications section

http://laws.worldrugby.org/index.php?domain=10&clarification_era=upto&union=WRU&clarification=51&language=EN

World Rugby wrote:A player in possession of the ball drops it onto his thigh and propels it forward. What is the correct decision?

If this occurred in general play the following would apply. By definition 'A kick is made by hitting the ball with any part of the leg or foot, except the heel, from the toe to the knee but not including the knee…'. In the case described the ball has not been kicked but has been dropped onto the thigh and this is ruled as a knock-on or throw forward. If the action as described was taken by a player after his team had been awarded a penalty kick or free kick, then a PK or FK has not been correctly taken. Under Law 21.3(b) bouncing the ball on the thigh can in this case be taken to include the knee as this is also in the definition above. Thus, the player has infringed this Law and a scrum to the opposing team should be ordered.

So it's a knock on off his knee, doesn't even need to hit his hand. How can the TMO and referee miss that?

by Heaf Mon 12 Feb - 17:02

I think you're misinterpreting the way the laws are written - that's an example of a way to knock-on not the definition ...

look at the first video example given - for good measure it comes off his leg too ...

http://laws.worldrugby.org/?highlight=knock%20on&law=11

by SecretFly Mon 12 Feb - 17:04

This is a circus now and you all know it....

Thank God 606 weren't tasked with inventing the wheel!

"Who says we need something round? A ball is made of hexagons and pentagons and it rolls perfectly.... I say the shape of the wheel should be a triangle!"

by Margin_Walker Mon 12 Feb - 17:04

Scottrf wrote:
Margin_Walker wrote:One final post from the World Rugby clarifications section

http://laws.worldrugby.org/index.php?domain=10&clarification_era=upto&union=WRU&clarification=51&language=EN

World Rugby wrote:A player in possession of the ball drops it onto his thigh and propels it forward. What is the correct decision?

If this occurred in general play the following would apply. By definition 'A kick is made by hitting the ball with any part of the leg or foot, except the heel, from the toe to the knee but not including the knee…'. In the case described the ball has not been kicked but has been dropped onto the thigh and this is ruled as a knock-on or throw forward. If the action as described was taken by a player after his team had been awarded a penalty kick or free kick, then a PK or FK has not been correctly taken. Under Law 21.3(b) bouncing the ball on the thigh can in this case be taken to include the knee as this is also in the definition above. Thus, the player has infringed this Law and a scrum to the opposing team should be ordered.

So it's a knock on off his knee, doesn't even need to hit his hand. How can the TMO and referee miss that?

He's holding the ball in this example (possession) and drops it onto his knee. Just kneeing the ball with no input from the hand or arm is not a knock on.

by Scottrf Mon 12 Feb - 17:06

Margin_Walker wrote:
Scottrf wrote:So it's a knock on off his knee, doesn't even need to hit his hand. How can the TMO and referee miss that?

He's holding the ball in this example (possession) and drops it onto his knee. Just kneeing the ball with no input from the hand or arm is not a knock on.

Why? You can knock the ball on without possession with any other part of your body which isn't a kick. If a knee isn't a kick, it must be a knock on?

by Margin_Walker Mon 12 Feb - 17:07

Okay, I'm out. Have fun lads

by No9 Mon 12 Feb - 17:10

Margin_Walker wrote:One final post from the World Rugby clarifications section

http://laws.worldrugby.org/index.php?domain=10&clarification_era=upto&union=WRU&clarification=51&language=EN

World Rugby wrote:A player in possession of the ball drops it onto his thigh and propels it forward. What is the correct decision?

If this occurred in general play the following would apply. By definition 'A kick is made by hitting the ball with any part of the leg or foot, except the heel, from the toe to the knee but not including the knee…'. In the case described the ball has not been kicked but has been dropped onto the thigh and this is ruled as a knock-on or throw forward. If the action as described was taken by a player after his team had been awarded a penalty kick or free kick, then a PK or FK has not been correctly taken. Under Law 21.3(b) bouncing the ball on the thigh can in this case be taken to include the knee as this is also in the definition above. Thus, the player has infringed this Law and a scrum to the opposing team should be ordered.

I did say that when I played (many years ago - mmm 70s & 80s), that you could "kick" it with the knee.. But a knock on from the knee is just wrong...

by No9 Mon 12 Feb - 17:11

Margin_Walker wrote:Okay, I'm out. Have fun lads

cheerio .. Hug

by No9 Mon 12 Feb - 17:17

LordDowlais wrote:
Margin_Walker wrote:'A kick is made by hitting the ball with any part of the leg or foot, except the heel, from the toe to the knee but not including the knee…'.

Simon Zebo scored a try by kicking it forward off his heel against us a few years back, is this another travesty of justice ?

Doh.. I remember that to.. Wasn't it Ireland's GS year.. Take it off them the cheating b******... Whistle

Only joking Very Happy

by dummy_half Mon 12 Feb - 17:18

Scottrf wrote:
Heaf wrote:
Scottrf wrote:
Heaf wrote:
Scottrf wrote:I don't think it's a knock on.

In fact, by the laws a knock on is only during a tackle or tackle attempt.

Erm ... I think that's one way of knocking on but not the only way .... otherwise fumbling a ball forwards from a pass or kick wouldn't be a knock on ...

I agree that's how it's judged, but it's not in the laws.

What you describe in the laws is one way of knocking on - it's not defined as the only way otherwise how would a player knock-on when attempting to catch a ball?

Look I agree that's a knock on in reality. But check the laws.

Scott

You need to also check the definitions, although I have to say I am sure the definition or description of a knock on used to be included in the numbered Laws. I definitely don't like the formatting of the 2018 Laws, as it has moved too much out of the explicit Laws sections and into the definitions, and as such is actually incomplete (for example, it does not detail the sanction for a ball being knocked on other than in a tackle [i.e. where a tackler knocks the ball forward when dislodging possession from the ball carrier] or in the case of a deliberate knock on).

In fact, I think someone needs to get in touch with World Rugby to point out this and probably other oversights. I mean, it's not as though rugby is easy to referee anyway, but having bits of the playing regulations missing from the Laws is pretty catastrophic.

by Scottrf Mon 12 Feb - 17:21

Yeah that was just a bit of nit picking. But it does seem like it should be a knock on off the knee.

Edit: actually not the case.

by SecretFly Mon 12 Feb - 17:23

No9 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Margin_Walker wrote:'A kick is made by hitting the ball with any part of the leg or foot, except the heel, from the toe to the knee but not including the knee…'.

Simon Zebo scored a try by kicking it forward off his heel against us a few years back, is this another travesty of justice ?

Doh.. I remember that to.. Wasn't it Ireland's GS year.. Take it off them the cheating b******...

Only joking

See what eyes and memory do though? Simon Zebo scored no try from that piece of brazen football perversity tomfoolery. He helped one go in by keeping possession but it wasn't him that scored the try.

by No 7&1/2 Mon 12 Feb - 17:26

I never knew thigh counted as a knock on.

Zebo caught the ball of course so it's not a knock on.

by Scottrf Mon 12 Feb - 17:28

No 7&1/2 wrote:I never knew thigh counted as a knock on.

Zebo caught the ball of course so it's not a knock on.

Thigh is a knock on if you had possession, but not if you didn't.

by No 7&1/2 Mon 12 Feb - 17:39

Not sure anymore. If they are saying the above it surely counts for when a player is attempted to catch as well?

by Scottrf Mon 12 Feb - 17:43

"A knock-on occurs when a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it."

So if you don't have possession, it must be from a hand or arm.

by No 7&1/2 Mon 12 Feb - 18:04

Which it was to me. Hand onto his leg. That being knee or above you'd assume that the same interpetation as above wouldn't you? I've changed my mind about 5 times since the match on both the knock on and who got the touch down!

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