TMO, World Rugby & Poor Standard of Refereeing - Discuss.

First topic message reminder :

Alain Rolland & World Rugby have brought the game we love into disrepute.

You cannot go behind the back of officials and say they got it wrong after the game, let's face it Alain was prone to one or two errors here and there when he was a ref.

No one is perfect (Apart from Wilko) Mistakes and talking points are what makes sports fun and interesting.
Yes, Rugby union needs to learn a thing or two from other sports like Cricket and how rugby league has a very clear process it runs through once the ref has asked for it to be reviewed. But it should never say an official got it wrong after the event, yes, he did slip up as he dismissed the knock on far too quickly which made the grounding irrelevant anyway but all this hot air after the game is leaving a sour taste in my mouth.

Eddie is bang on when he says everyone should move on. Take note Mr Gatland.

Also

Is it me or has the Standard of Refereeing been poor so far. Week 1 was a breath of fresh air, 9s getting pinged for not feeding the scrum straight. (about time) yet by week 2 its back to normal.
During the England/wales game the Ref missed loads of offsides, diving over the top, not releasing the ball or the tackled player missed knock-ons!!! etc etc.......Its been poor to watch and they need to up the standard.


TMO what's the point, might as well have one fan from each side to judge their own teams incidents. Two Irish tries were knock ons and the kiwi should have been red carded for a shoulder charge to the head.

I've posted similar things to this a few times over the last season but it really is so vital to understanding why reffing standards are low and dropping:

1. Refereeing standards at the top (international and professional) will be decided by standards at grass roots.

2. Reffing standards in grass roots are truly dire. There are of course exceptions to this with many excellent refs coaching at every level but the average standard is extremely poor.

3. These grassroots standards are so low because there is a huge shortage of referees at all levels. Far too many games are reffed by unqualified coaches, parents and even players due to no other option being available.

4. Participation in refereeing is very low because of how badly refs are treated, especially at the highest level.

At professional and international level refs are cross examined, ridiculed and even abused (see the death threats received by several) for every decision made. Little discussion is given to the fact that interpretation has always been a huge part of laws of rugby, with it merely coming into the spotlight as TV coverage, replays, etc have become a part of the game. Almost no empathy is given to how difficult a task refereeing a rugby match is.

It never ceases to amaze me how rugby fans will quote the respect players give to refs as one of the things they love most about this game whilst feeling that spectators should be free to treat officials as they see fit.

Deriding officials will only perpetuate the lack of participation that leads to these low standards, until fans and players alike understand that the problem will only get worse.

I've got to say, the standard of refereeing this 6N is the worst I've ever seen it. I'm not sure if that's because we've been on the back foot a lot so are getting pinged more or if the ref's are just getting worse.

The referee and the TMO in the game yesterday were absolutely diabolical. The blatant knock on by Kearney and then the possible knock on by Stockdale at least deserved a closer look. I honestly gave up on the game yesterday at about 50mins due to number of obvious poor calls and inconstancy in the game.

The way the Irish held a player up and it was deemed a maul and when we did it, it was a tackle. The lineout was a shambles with us getting pinged numerous times and Ireland doing exactly the same offence and it getting ignored. The high tackle by Aki was one of the most obvious yellow cards you will see, he shoulder charged then attempted to wrap an arm....yellow all day long. It was just an infuriating game to watch as an England fan and I imagine even a lot of the Irish/Neutrals must have thought the officiating was poor.

Rant over.....Ireland deserved their win and we deserved to lose the game. Even with some of the poor decisions, I don't think we'd have won the game. I think Ireland had another gear in them and would have turned the screw if we got close.

I do not like blaming the referee for losing the game, any game. But i do agree with sgt__pooly some of the call that went against England when they did something, was ok when Ireland did the same thing. it seems ( this may seem like a bad loser ) but it seems like all the referee's have been told to watch England closer than other teams.

paranoid nonsense/ No knock ons in either try and both ti9mes the TMO checked both for knock ons and forward passes.

As for the holding up - simply poor technique / not understanding the laws. tackled player gets his knees on the ground - tackle, tackled player is held up so his knees don't touch the ground - maul once other players arrive

Jeepers guys - you were beaten fair and square and the reffing has been fine. No one but England fans are complaining.

Not what I seen on the match page with Scottish and Irish posters commenting on the poor standard of reffing.

I've not seen anyone suggest we should of won, we lost all 3 games fair and square. Ireland were excellent yesterday and fully deserved the win and the GS.

What I can't take (and I really don't like to comment on poor reffing) is the standard of the game yesterday. If you don't think Kearney knocked on or Aki didn't deserve a yellow....ok, but I don't agree in the slightest.

Kearney might have had a slight brush with his hand on the ball - but for the try to be ruled out it must be "clear and obvious" - thats what the laws and guidance say. There is no way it was a "clear and obvious" knock on so 100% the correct decision

As for Aki - a bit lucky not to get a yellow - the fact he used his arms is what saved him.

90% of ref complaints are a lack of understanding of how the laws are applied. the criteria for seeing a knock on or forward pass on replay is it must be "clear and obvious" Not "it looks like he might have knocked it on"

The other factor is when you are being beaten all decisions seem to go against you. Thats something England fans are not used to.

TJ wrote:Kearney might

As for Aki - a bit lucky not to get a yellow - the fact he used his arms is what saved him.

What arms?

Dirty Kiwi tactics!

I hope the RFU ask for clarification about the use of TMOs

TJ wrote:Kearney might have had a slight brush with his hand on the ball - but for the try to be ruled out it must be "clear and obvious" - thats what the laws and guidance say.  There is no way it was a "clear and obvious" knock on so 100% the correct decision

As for Aki - a bit lucky not to get a yellow - the fact he used his arms is what saved him.

90% of ref complaints are a lack of understanding of how the laws are applied.  the criteria for seeing a knock on or forward pass on replay is it must be "clear and obvious"  Not "it looks like he might have knocked it on"

I disagree TJ, it was a clear knock on that the TMO never even mentioned. The one that was debatable was the Stockdale try which deserved a closer look.

Aki used one arm, after using his shoulder.....it was a clear yellow.

Happy to agree to disagree though, it certainly was one of those days.

The TMO did mention it from my memory. Have a look at the game again if you can bear it once the emotion has gone - I bet you revise your opinion - I usually do. At the time I am screaming at the ref for the bad decisions. Looking at them later I usually agree with the decisions. I did this a few times and came to appreciate how one eyed all us fans are in the heat of the moment

It was a knock on for the first. And we have indeed seen yellows for no arm tackles. It's not biased to say so.

TJ wrote:Kearney might have had a slight brush with his hand on the ball - but for the try to be ruled out it must be "clear and obvious" - thats what the laws and guidance say.  There is no way it was a "clear and obvious" knock on so 100% the correct decision

As for Aki - a bit lucky not to get a yellow - the fact he used his arms is what saved him.

Have to agree with your view on Kearney's potential knock on, to me I thought he did but when the TMO looked at several angles it was not clear and obvious. One of those calls that when it goes your way, you are happy but when it goes against you... well its just pure shoite. All teams have been on the end of those calls.

As for Aki, never a doubt in my mind that he should have received a yellow card. The one arm he used to 'wrap' barely touched the player.

The consistency was poor and just to highlight one incident of inconsistency yesterday.

Daly going down the line, tap tackled by Earls and goes to ground. Cover defence of Kearney sees him slide in on his knees and his knees make contact with Daly's head. Not intentional but contact was made.

Daly clearing out Kearney moments later, Kearney appeals for a neck roll, goes to the TMO and the decision was reached that it was not intentional but a penalty due to the outcome.

If Daly was going to be penalised for the outcome of his actions then surely Kearney should have been penalised?

I agree Billy, he was extremely inconsistent. I wouldn't mind if he was just poor, but he just couldn't make his mind up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqwHJaXjSs0

Around 26 seconds....Kearney knocks on and pulls Watson's hand, it's two infringements. It was dealt with awfully by Watson though I might add.

I also thought that the penalty against Farrell early on was harsh. He has every right to attempt a charge down and in fairness you have to be committed to do that. How many times do we see a FB aim to take a kick, dummy then take an extra few yards to get into a better position for a kick.

For me, Farrell was not late but committed. At the time of contact Kearney was still in the follow through of his clearance kick. In no way could Farrell have pulled out of that.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I agree Billy, he was extremely inconsistent. I wouldn't mind if he was just poor, but he just couldn't make his mind up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqwHJaXjSs0

Around 26 seconds....Kearney knocks on and pulls Watson's hand, it's two infringements. It was dealt with awfully by Watson though I might add.  

I think that Kearney is attempting to get the ball or disrupt Watson so I do not see anything bad with that myself. As I said, when the go for you, great but when against, pure shoite.

The perceived standard of refereeing is inversely proportional to the number of cameras watching. It took until halftime before the Kearney knock-on was identified by the analysts - do fans really want the game stopped that long?
It was interesting the Anglo-centric coverage on ITV also focused on the perceived ko for the Ringrose try yet totally ignored the obvious forward pass for the second Daly try.
The perception of refereeing is controlled by the tv editor, and the broadcasters play on the moral indignation of their audience so they edit the coverage to suit their agenda. The ITV commentary team are naturally focused on the AP to the point where they didn't seem to recognise half the Ireland team!

The answer is simple - let the officials make their decisions in private rather than have trial by mob on the big screen.

Ref was crap yesterday as was tmo. First try was knock on stock dale try was fine no hand . Bungee aki was a card no doubt. He let Ireland play on after knocking on several times. As for the choke tackle obviously can only be achieved by green shirted players. The other games have been fine though no issues with Nigel and don't think there a massive problem.

TJ wrote:paranoid nonsense/  No knock ons in either try and both ti9mes the TMO checked both for knock ons and forward passes.

As for the holding up - simply poor technique / not understanding the laws.  tackled player gets his knees on the ground - tackle, tackled player is held up so his knees don't touch the ground - maul once other players arrive

Jeepers guys - you were beaten fair and square and the reffing has been fine.  No one but England fans are complaining.

Actually Eirebilly agrees with some of the observations made about the poor officiating ... maybe you're a bit one-eyed against England?

And stop with the patronising we don't understand the laws ... on one occasion Itoje's knee clearly touched the ground but it was still called as a maul and not a tackle.

TightHEAD wrote:I hope the RFU ask for clarification about the use of TMOs

I hope the WRU do too, as Wales had 3 legitimate tries ruled out this year by the TMO.

mikey_dragon wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:I hope the RFU ask for clarification about the use of TMOs

I hope the WRU do too, as Wales had 3 legitimate tries ruled out this year by the TMO.

I hope that they do.

Feel really sorry for Spain. All they had to do was beat Belgium to qualify for the world cup ahead of Romania. World rugby in their infinite wisdom apointed a Romanian ref for the game. The penalty count was 24-4 in Belgiums favour who won 18-10. Romania progress. Another man sausage up from world rugby.

I’ve read that Spain players then pretty much assaulted the ref! Hefty sanctions on the way for Spain I suspect.

Be the judge yourself guys, this looks like blatant fixing to me:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3LwfEJU1ow&feature=youtu.be

There are far too many rules and laws in rugby all of which are then "interpretted" by a referree.

The breakdown and the scrum in particular are also almost impossible to police properly with all the fine margins.

Add to this the number of camera ngles and replays there are now and you will innevitebly hsve a catelgue of referre calls or non calls over the course of game with which to refer to.

I know how Spain feel, robbed by the Ref.

Artful_Dodger wrote:Be the judge yourself guys, this looks like blatant fixing to me:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3LwfEJU1ow&feature=youtu.be

That's awful viewing. To be fair, Belgium seemed to have got on top at the scrum, but some of the breakdown calls are basically just cheating. The one were he gives the pen to Spain, plays advantage until the winger breaks free.....then calls it back when he was basically going to score a try....shocking.

Makes our ref on Saturday look pretty good.

England’s maul travelling forward towards the try line ref identifies it being brought down illegally POM is subsequently carded so why no penalty try?

I can only really speak for Pro 14 refs as they are tho ones I watch regularly.  Nige Owens and Ben Whitehouse are decent refs because they communicate with players.   The rest are quite poor but the Irish duo of George Clancy and John Lacey are particularly dire.  The Romanian Italian Marius Mitrea is also abysmal. Then you have the French refs - personally think they are quite good with Jerome Garces being the pick of them.   SA refs now that they are part of Pro 14 look ok so far (Glasgow have had one in the game v Benetton) and they are keeping Joubert away from Scottish teams for obvious reasons( RWC15 Scot v Aus when he ran away at full time).   But that Romanian referee was a cheating disgrace and that match (Belgium Spain) should be replayed or it devalues the whole process.

Yoda wrote:Ref was crap yesterday as was tmo. First try was knock on stock dale try was fine no hand . Bungee aki was a card no doubt. He let Ireland play on after knocking on several times. As for the choke tackle obviously can only be achieved by green shirted players. The other games have been fine though no issues with Nigel and don't think there a massive problem.

Bundee Aki wasnt a card at all. It was a head clash. Thats more accidental than anything. He also used his arms so a penalty was questionable.

Collapse2005 wrote:Bundee Aki wasnt a card at all. It was a head clash. Thats more accidental than anything. He also used his arms so a penalty was questionable.

OMG.

Each SH ref I witnessed during the 6N was bloody awful.

Perfect as neutral Pro14 refs then.

That's dud SH refs and dodgy Romanian refs next season. It'll be a relief to have sorted out the bias issues once and for all.