TMO, World Rugby & Poor Standard of Refereeing - Discuss.

First topic message reminder :

Alain Rolland & World Rugby have brought the game we love into disrepute.

You cannot go behind the back of officials and say they got it wrong after the game, let's face it Alain was prone to one or two errors here and there when he was a ref.

No one is perfect (Apart from Wilko) Mistakes and talking points are what makes sports fun and interesting.
Yes, Rugby union needs to learn a thing or two from other sports like Cricket and how rugby league has a very clear process it runs through once the ref has asked for it to be reviewed. But it should never say an official got it wrong after the event, yes, he did slip up as he dismissed the knock on far too quickly which made the grounding irrelevant anyway but all this hot air after the game is leaving a sour taste in my mouth.

Eddie is bang on when he says everyone should move on. Take note Mr Gatland.

Also

Is it me or has the Standard of Refereeing been poor so far. Week 1 was a breath of fresh air, 9s getting pinged for not feeding the scrum straight. (about time) yet by week 2 its back to normal.
During the England/wales game the Ref missed loads of offsides, diving over the top, not releasing the ball or the tackled player missed knock-ons!!! etc etc.......Its been poor to watch and they need to up the standard.


TMO what's the point, might as well have one fan from each side to judge their own teams incidents. Two Irish tries were knock ons and the kiwi should have been red carded for a shoulder charge to the head.

No9 wrote:Ok, as we are talking bad referee decisions and to try an lighten the conversation a little, is anyone old enough to remember this TV film, Old Scores [imbd link: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0102581/ ] . I thought it was really funny at the time, especially as I'm old enough to remember Andy Hayden's cheating b!oody dive out of the line in 78 to steal another win against Wales mad  (Jump is about 4:50 into the YouTube clip. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6r4iOOjOWL4)

... but back to the film. Its called Old Scores, and its a comedy of course, but I think the idea was born out of that 1978 game, although to keep the lawyers happy the film itself is based around a game supposeduly held in 1966 where the referee, on his death bed, confessed to cheating..

I dont know if there's anywhere you can get this from today.

I remember that. Windsor Davies (Mog from Grand Slam) is the Welsh coach, I think it finishes with the ball called old lucky being used for a last minute penalty for New Zealand and it burst and landed on top of the crossbar. All the oldies are in it, Phill Bennett, Gareth Edwards, they all played their part. The last lines are Windsor Davies saying the will have to have a re-match, with it cutting off just as he was about to say it.

Classic film.

Thats it... but I wasnt going to give the end away

No9 wrote:Ok, as we are talking bad referee decisions and to try an lighten the conversation a little, is anyone old enough to remember this TV film, Old Scores [imbd link: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0102581/ ] . I thought it was really funny at the time, especially as I'm old enough to remember Andy Hayden's cheating b!oody dive out of the line in 78 to steal another win against Wales   (Jump is about 4:50 into the YouTube clip. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6r4iOOjOWL4)

... but back to the film. Its called Old Scores, and its a comedy of course, but I think the idea was born out of that 1978 game, although to keep the lawyers happy the film itself is based around a game supposeduly held in 1966 where the referee, on his death bed, confessed to cheating..

I dont know if there's anywhere you can get this from today.

Andy Haden didnt cheat, that is whats called gamesmanship. No New Zealander would ever cheat.

aucklandlaurie wrote:

No9 wrote:Ok, as we are talking bad referee decisions and to try an lighten the conversation a little, is anyone old enough to remember this TV film, Old Scores [imbd link: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0102581/ ] . I thought it was really funny at the time, especially as I'm old enough to remember Andy Hayden's cheating b!oody dive out of the line in 78 to steal another win against Wales   (Jump is about 4:50 into the YouTube clip. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6r4iOOjOWL4)

... but back to the film. Its called Old Scores, and its a comedy of course, but I think the idea was born out of that 1978 game, although to keep the lawyers happy the film itself is based around a game supposeduly held in 1966 where the referee, on his death bed, confessed to cheating..

I dont know if there's anywhere you can get this from today.

Andy Haden didnt cheat, that is whats called gamesmanship. No New Zealander would ever cheat.

... it was as convincing as the Haka was frightening in those days

The ref in the scotand wales game was spot on - very good indeed and while a bit more lax also the scotland / france ref was fine

Well I guess that's that then, because TJ is always 100% accurate .

Is World Rugby at fault on this?

They were asked a query about the incident by Wales. Rolland contacted Wales and told them their view.  

That’s where it could have stayed.  Between Rolland and Howley.  However, WR had to issue a statement confirming if something was true or not.  They didn’t offer the information to media proactively. Someone other than them did evidently.

Want one of the worsts decisions I think I have ever seen - just to please the crowd when jonny Wilkinson returned from injury

Check out about the 1.11 mark - and this was allowed

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yRM46g0Mp4

R!skysports wrote:Want one of the worsts decisions I think I have ever seen - just to please the crowd when jonny Wilkinson returned from injury

Check out about the 1.11 mark - and this was allowed  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yRM46g0Mp4

I posted that one earlier in the thread, R!sky! Shocking.

The Oracle wrote:

R!skysports wrote:Want one of the worsts decisions I think I have ever seen - just to please the crowd when jonny Wilkinson returned from injury

Check out about the 1.11 mark - and this was allowed  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yRM46g0Mp4

I posted that one earlier in the thread, R!sky! Shocking.

lol - I was obviously using the same monitor at the TMO

R!skysports wrote:

The Oracle wrote:

R!skysports wrote:Want one of the worsts decisions I think I have ever seen - just to please the crowd when jonny Wilkinson returned from injury

Check out about the 1.11 mark - and this was allowed  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yRM46g0Mp4

I posted that one earlier in the thread, R!sky! Shocking.

lol - I was obviously using the same monitor at the TMO

Haha!

By the way, when I said ‘shocking’, I was talking about the Wilko decision and not about you posting the same video!

The Oracle wrote:

R!skysports wrote:

The Oracle wrote:

R!skysports wrote:Want one of the worsts decisions I think I have ever seen - just to please the crowd when jonny Wilkinson returned from injury

Check out about the 1.11 mark - and this was allowed  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yRM46g0Mp4

I posted that one earlier in the thread, R!sky! Shocking.

lol - I was obviously using the same monitor at the TMO

Haha!

By the way, when I said ‘shocking’, I was talking about the Wilko decision and not about you posting the same video!

IT was shockingly lazy of me not to check

What ever happened to Harry Ellis? - Anyway I think the try was good, TMO was correct to give Wilko a try.

The point is surely that it`s irrelevant,the IRB/WRB should back the officials right or wrong.
So they got it wrong the result stands,just as the Crusaders actually beat the Waratahs in2015
on that wrong decision.
The Record books says different and that`s what counts,every team tries to con the Ref.To bad for
Wales Andy Hadens didn't con the Ref in 1978.THe Wales player was jumping of a shoulder and
correctly penalised.

The standard of Refereeing today was atrocious time and time again I swear they just make it up as they go along, no consistency what's so ever. The home team get such special treatment that you may as well start every game at 14-0.

So Ireland should get an automatic 14 starting points in the game next week to balance it out?

I'll agree to that, Tight

SecretFly wrote:So Ireland should get an automatic 14 starting points in the game next week to balance it out?

I'll agree to that, Tight

Mate, they won't need it, we are very broken at the moment.

Have a good evening

Another shocking game, what’s the point of the TMO if they don’t watch all the incident leading up to tries?

Ireland’s first try was a knock on. Yet the Tmo only wanted to see the non grounding by Watson, pointless

I've said a couple of times that you could introduce a cricket style tmo of checks they have to go through. It would increase the waiting times though and the point of the tmo in the 1st place was to eradicate the howlers rather than all close calls.

They do 7 1/2 - if you listen to the conversations between them ( if you get chance over the ruddy commentators) there are a series of steps they follow. Consistently the same every time. I think the refs are very well trained to do this

So how did the TMO miss the knock-on then? It was pretty clear when they showed it at half time.

It's not though tj. It depends on the call of the ref. They can legally for the tmo go back as far as 2 phases. Di they every time? No. Sometimes the ref will say check the grounding. Some tmo say ok and do that. Some will check a knock on if they think it's there. Of it was some refs will say scrum some will say no I said check on the grounding. So can't agree with you there.

What concerns me is that it was a blatant knock on by Kearney. Yet it was given....

Rugby league does it right

Indeed - makes you wonder how some of these TMOs get the job .... checking for a knock-on was an obvious thing to look for given how the play ran so either not bothering or simply not seeing it was unbelievable.

I'd agree about league. They have steps to check. The tmo talks hough his thinking at each stage. The ref is completely removed.

We have been well and truly done over by World Rugbys officials this 6 nations

No we haven't

Oh yes we have

Listen I've paid for a serious argument. You can't just say no it isn't!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNkjDuSVXiE&list=RDXNkjDuSVXiE

The annoyance is that the interpretations are in no way consistent.

Aki's tackle was a card in the AP. Halifenua was carded for a tackle on Sinoti that was near identical to Aki's. It was only deemed as not red because the player was dipping.

If Kearney had been playing in the AP then grabbing the hand of Watson in the air would have been a penalty not "both players are dynamic".

We've seen similar issues in the HEC. Some Pro 14 fans are not fans of AP refs because they don't ref as they are used to. World Rugby need to step up and make the interpretations consistent across the elite levels of the game.

TightHEAD wrote:We have been well and truly done over by World Rugbys officials this 6 nations

What's happened tighthead? You used be so good at this. Last week or two your standard has been very low

carpet baboon wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:We have been well and truly done over by World Rugbys officials this 6 nations

What's happened tighthead? You used  be so good at this. Last week or two your standard has been very low

What are you saying?

Tight head is a well known wum.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Tight head is a well known wum.

Our words paint pictures of us all.

So many of you breaking the house rules, stay on topic!
once again the officials pick and choose when to intervene!

I think the Refs in the Avivs Prem are head and shoulders ahead of most of world rugby’s Refs. The standard of officiating this 6nations has been very poor, hopefully some of them won’t be used for the RWC, Nige has gone from the best to being more important than the game itself. He needs to be re trained or dropped altogether.

Its funny isn't it that only the English have trouble with the refs interpretations and think that their league gets it right and the rest of the world is wrong. No ap refs in the 6N?

I think the standard of reffing was extremely high. No obvious blunders that cost games. Fans will allways view refs with one eye. all the complaints about todays reffing performance are either based on bias, lack of understanding of the rules or of the procedures used.

Love sacks, or you are blind.

TJ wrote:Its funny isn't it that only the English have trouble with the refs interpretations and think that their league gets it right and the rest of the world is wrong.  No ap refs in the 6N?

I think the standard of reffing was extremely high.  No obvious blunders that cost games.  Fans will allways view refs with one eye.  all the complaints about todays reffing performance are either based on bias, lack of understanding of the rules or of the procedures used.

1. Four of the six nations play in the same league so have the same interpretation, generally.

2. The Welsh certainly didn't take THAT TMO decision well.

The decisions by refs didn't cost England because we were so poor but at the same time there is definitely a lack of consistency with refs, TMOs and citing panels.

I disagree. what fans see as inconsistency is actually looking at their own players with one eye. Look at it dispassionatly i9ts pretty consistent as they work thru a number of factors before making decisions

For me the issue is that this year the ap teams decided contesting the breakdown was no longer possible so stopped trying. the Celtic teams didn't so got used to playing for turnovers under the new laws.

TJ wrote:I disagree. what fans see as inconsistency is actually looking at their own players with one eye.  Look at it dispassionatly i9ts pretty consistent as they work thru a number of factors before making decisions

For me the issue is that this year the ap teams decided contesting the breakdown was no longer possible so stopped trying.  the Celtic teams didn't so got used to playing for turnovers under the new laws.

A whole league didn't decide to abandon the breakdown. Most teams compete heavily but in the AP the refs are considerably stricter with hands on the floor or resting your forearms past the ball.

The breakdown isn't the only difference either. Contesting in the air and high tackle interpretations also differ significantly as does the TMO usage with TMOs offering more advice in the AP than internationally where they are only used when called upon.

The citing procedures have been a joke for years and about as consistent as a sleep deprived toddler.

Thats just utter nonsense - the refs all play to the same standards and proceedures. what yo see as inconsistent reffing is players knowing how to stay just inside the laws. Were none of the 6N refs ap refs?

TJ wrote:Thats just utter nonsense - the refs all play to the same standards and proceedures.  what yo see as inconsistent reffing is players knowing how to stay just inside the laws.  Were none of the 6N refs ap refs?

Then why do you see such large differences in terms of decision making? We hear the referees talk to the TMO, we know the debate and how the decision is formed. The debate between Gardner and his TMO today was nothing like that between the ref who took charge of Glaws and Newcastle the other week even though the tackles were near identical and he decision at the end very different.

There'll always be interpretation in rugby because it's a complicated sport and we have laws and not rules. We have a flexible officiating system. You saying that all refs have the same interpretation and ref in the same way is frankly ridiculous.

Got a link to the tackle - I didn't see it so cannot comment but every ref I have heard uses exactly the same criteria as laid down in the guidence. Were there no english refs in the 6N? - if there was then surely they would have been pinging the celtic nations off the park if your idea that for some strange reason the ap refs used different criteria.

formerly known as Sam wrote:The annoyance is that the interpretations are in no way consistent.

Aki's tackle was a card in the AP. Halifenua was carded for a tackle on Sinoti that was near identical to Aki's. It was only deemed as not red because the player was dipping.

If Kearney had been playing in the AP then grabbing the hand of Watson in the air would have been a penalty not "both players are dynamic".

We've seen similar issues in the HEC. Some Pro 14 fans are not fans of AP refs because they don't ref as they are used to. World Rugby need to step up and make the interpretations consistent across the elite levels of the game.

Ref gave a clear explanation as to why it wasn’t a yellow similar to when mike brown tried to decapitate Kearney.

Your other complaint is hilariously spurious. In fairness you do have form. Have a good evening!

TJ wrote:Its funny isn't it that only the English have trouble with the refs interpretations and think that their league gets it right and the rest of the world is wrong.  No ap refs in the 6N?

I think the standard of reffing was extremely high.  No obvious blunders that cost games.  Fans will allways view refs with one eye.  all the complaints about todays reffing performance are either based on bias, lack of understanding of the rules or of the procedures used.

So which bit of the laws/interpretation etc are we misunderstanding when wondering why the TMO couldn't see the clear knock-on in the air in Ireland's first try?

Because there was no knock on? Certainly not "clear and obvious" which is the criteria used to overturn a try. this is what I mean about not understanding how decisions are reached. Forward pass or knock on has to be "clear and obvious" for a replay alter a decision

What about the ap refs reffing 6N games involving celtic teams - why were they not pinged off the park?

TJ wrote:Because there was no knock on?  Certainly not "clear and obvious" which is the criteria used to overturn a try.  this is what I mean about not understanding how decisions are reached.  Forward pass or knock on has to be "clear and obvious" for a replay alter a decision

Not sure what replay you saw but it was pretty clear and obvious to me (and the commentary team at the half time review), with two different angles both showing Kearney's hand knocking it forwards ... (and I do understand the criteria by the way thanks).

And by the way the question was try yes or no I believe so it wasn't looking for something to 'overturn a try' or alter a decision as no decision had been made at that point ...